4everGod:


You just said a lot of ignorant things here.

lmao at social studies. I do not think you can think along this path so i advice you leave that for your own sanity.

Run away as usual, when u see superior arguments... Even if u can't comprehend the comment, the question at the end is straight forward. If God determines right and wrong, how did humans etermine that slavery is bad?? However, u are totally free to run away if you don't have an answer

MrPresident1:
Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.



My brother, please what is a suicide bomber?

Check that verse up the, peace and evil, our God is in charge of everything. Suicide bomber is one of the judgment tools of our God.
Suicide bomber can never branch a righteous person's house except he has a debt to pay, in this life or in a previous incarnation.

You are a jpke. A total joke... Am no longer a Christian but am still ashamed that u are a Christian... All the victims of suicide bombing are not righteous... U are just disgracing Christianity upandan

4everGod:


You said Paul did not condemn slavery. Lets look at (Deuteronomy 23:15) side by side with Pauls comment demand to Philemon

"You shall not hand over to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you.

Now Philemon

14. but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
15. For perhaps he was for this reason separated from you for a while, that you would have him back forever,
16. no longer as a slave, but more than a slave, a beloved brother, especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord.
17. If then you regard me a partner, accept him as you would me.

The new testament forbids condemnation but encourages free will. Paul was fulfilling Deuteronomy 23:15 and clearly told Philemon, I SEE HIM AS A FREE MAN AND I SUGGEST YOU DO SAME ESPECIALLY IF YOU SAY YOU ARE MY PARTNER THEN ACCEPT HIM AS A FREE MAN SINCE I AM ALSO A FREE MAN.

Paul clearly condemned slavery but not as he would a law giver. He did so as a follower of Christ who knew that even Philemon had to act based on free will so he only gave philemon pointers to why he should set his former servant free.

What is going on here is like telling someone who is legally taking Medical Marijuana that it is wrong when the law is on his side. The slaves willingly gave themselves up so you wouldnt call their actions wrong since they chose to do so.

So only slaves who are lucky to escape are allowed freedom... God is the best ever... Am beginning to think the Islamic version of God is nicer

chrmn1:
Brotherly, God never killed the lads

No, he didn't. He only sat back and allowed them be devoured by bears... God is good! All the time!!

4everGod:


Wrong! You would want to take us down the road of morality and i wouldnt want to derail this thread.

Man does not know whats right from whats wrong. Let me drop a question here from you.

If a law was put up saying stealing is wrong who vetted such a law? if you said man can choose whats right from whats wrong, how did man know whats right from whats wrong and if you say the brain has the ability to choose right from wrong then who gave the brain the blueprint for right and wrong and why didnt the brain so easily say wrong ir right and right and wrong? How are you even sure what you are doing now is right? It may as well be wrong. Or is the same man who lies and steals and can kill the one to give you a standard for morality and choices? So who then judges the judge?

This is getting irritating... There's an innate ability to know right from wrong, even people who believe there's no God believe murder is wrong... The judges don't make the laws, the people make the laws through their representatives, this is social studies. And the Judge is judged by other judges, the case of the supreme Court justices is obvious example.
Tell me, if God determines morality, how did we arrive at the conclusion that slavery is bad

MrPresident1:
Isaiah 60:12
12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.



This is verbal gymnastics.

Even when Jesus Christ returns, there will still be slavery. The righteous people will rule over the unrighteous people forever. Quit your moralistic high horse bullshit to yourself.

How can you profess to morals or morality when you openly declare enmity with the originator of morals? Go and sit down!

When he comes, you either serve us, or be utterly wasted! Slavery is forever!

So even in the perfect world, there will still be slavery?? Jesus is really a jerk

chrmn1:
Read from NLT, the very version you quoted in your OP

I read it... No forbidding slavery

4everGod:


I asked you for records of such acts and if you have any kindly show it.

A law can be in a land condemning murder or a crime which they envisage MIGHT happen but has not happened am i wrong?

Yes, you are wrong. Gimme a crime that is prohibited in this country and has not happened. Gimme one!

4everGod:


What you should be asking is why even in war situations these days there is a law protecting POWs. In those days they were turned to slaves but also protected by laws so how come we have same today?

There are now laws against slavery because man is now wise enough to make laws to make his life better and not wait for some imaginary God who is only concerned with shellfish and masturbation

4everGod:


If preventive laws were given to protect the slaves does that mean that such acts like beating and blinding an eye or knocking out a tooth or beating and leaving for dead actually occurred?

If you have any record of any that occurred kindly show me.

Wait! There was a law allowing destruction of a slave's eye but it never happened?? Are u fricking kidding me?? No body beat his slaves for hundreds of years even though they were allowed too?? I know u can spin anything to defend your God but this is fifty shades of ridiculous. Damn!

Richirich713:


Necessary

Yh, he's necessary. Maybe for genocide, slavery and stuff

chrmn1:
If they had not they would have lost their lives and their people would have been taken captive. It was a war situation and trust me, they were actually taken as slaves by the Medo Persians as well as the Babylonians

Does this still justify slavery... U need to do better than this

chrmn1:
Regarding condemning of slavery in the NT, see 1 Timothy 1:9-10 as follows: "We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers–and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine.". Many thanks

So where is slavery forbidden in all of this. A slave ran to Paul, that was a great opportunity to forbid slavery but he didn't. Jesus had the time to forbid slavery and he didn't. But he had the time to forbid swearing and divorce

chrmn1:
Okay me thinks it was not really that way. It was indeed a time of war when nations would come up against one another and then just like it is with every war, if you don't defend tourself or if you don't strike the opposition you'd be struck. Yes some of the opposition were killed whilst others were disarmed retained as slaves (a lesser punishment than the former). In this situation, the slaves were supposed to serve as such because it was basically a time of conquest among nations. Remember the story of the people that pretended to Joshua to make them slaves that they came from a far country? Indeed there was no 'agreement' in such cases however, it was a war situation so it was a lesser punishment than having them die.

So how does your supposed explanation make slavery right or fair?? U are doing a very bad job of defending God on this account... But maybe it's not you, maybe the acts and omission of God have put you in an impossible position...
The point is Israelites enslaved people against their will... How is that fair??

4everGod:


Slaves were seen as spoils of war and as then Nations stood against Israel but even with the foreign slaves the same laws protected them which gave even the foreigners rights in the land of israel.

I asked you if you knew that your forefathers also had slaves of their own but you dodged that question. Were your forefathers Christians? The History of the Yoruba race where they using the Bible? Yet they were slave herders and had slaves at their beck and call to do with as they please true or false?

My forefathers harbored slaves and I can say boldly that it was a despicable act but you keep defending despicable acts and omissions of your God... And u have not answered me whether allowing slaves to be beaten to death- if they survive for two days- is a good thing??

4everGod:


Are you sure you are a Pastor? if you were you would see Pauls appeal to the reason of Philemon showing Him how Love in Christ sets us free both physically and spiritually and he should now show Love by setting His slave free even as He (PAUL) now sees him as a free man.

Are you sure you know the word?

Did Paul condemn slavery?? No, so what's your point

4everGod:


He will say it wasnt Buy! That is was forcefully purchase!

Nonsense... When the Israelites bought slaves from foreigners, was the agreement between the slaves and Israelites or between the sellers I.e. the foreigners and the Israelites?? Simple contract, u no understand

chrmn1:
That term 'buy' suggest there was some sort of agreement. People usually offered themselves to be slaves to escape the pangs of famine.

Listen, the agreement was not between slaves and masters.. It was between owners and intending buyers. When Joseph was sold to the Ishmaelites, was the agreement between Joseph and the Ishmaelites or between the Ishmaelites and the brothers??

4everGod:


Stop being Mischievous pls

So if in Nigeria the Law says when a man kills another man he should jailed for life does that mean the Nigerian law sanctions murder or manslaughter?

You love deceipt.

Did u even read the verses... The latter part says if a master beats his slave and the slave survives for a day or two, the master won't be punished.
Do u need glasses or is this selective blindness

4everGod:



(Philemon 1:10-21)

10. I appeal to you for my child Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my imprisonment,
11. who formerly was useless to you, but now is useful both to you and to me.
12. I have sent him back to you in person, that is, sending my very heart,
13. whom I wished to keep with me, so that on your behalf he might minister to me in my imprisonment for the gospel;
14. but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
15. For perhaps he was for this reason separated from you for a while, that you would have him back forever,
16. no longer as a slave, but more than a slave, a beloved brother, especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord.
17. If then you regard me a partner, accept him as you would me.
18. But if he has wronged you in any way or owes you anything, charge that to my account;
19. I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand, I will repay it (not to mention to you that you owe to me even your own self as well).
20. Yes, brother, let me benefit from you in the Lord; refresh my heart in Christ.
21. Having confidence in your obedience, I write to you, since I know that you will do even more than what I say

How does paul sending a slave back to his master equate to freedom??

4everGod:


Where did the Bible authorize beating anyone? God knows the heart of man is desperately wicked so they would always react and lash out at anything or anyone so the best thing to do was give the slaves protection until when the laws become written in our hearts which were love the Lord your God with all your heart....... and LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOUR AS YOURSELF. If you love your neighbour as yourself would you want to enslave yourself?

Here is the verse God authorized being in the bible:
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
It doesn't matter how many times it says Love your neighbor, it's just another one of the many contradictions in the bible

chrmn1:
Twale baba how markeet? Well, in those times, people went into slavery primarily because they wanted to escape the pangs of famine. Was it an ideal situation? No! Does the Bible say it was a good thing? No! Just as with a case like divorce, God tried to give them a sort of regulation for them to live amicably in that imperfect situation. It's even stated in the new testament that the old covenant was not faultless. Would you ever know whether the Bible condemned divorce or not in the old covenant if Jesup wasn't tasked about the subject in the NT. It was when He was queried that He revealed that God permitted the practice because they stubbornly refused to heed any instruction against it. So my dear pastor, you really don't have the full picture.

Stop lying?? People didn't go into slavery mainly because of famine... There were a lot of wars at that time and the people captured were sold as slaves. So when God says Israelites could purchase slaves from foreigners, those slaves were victims of those wars
And the new covenant didn't forbid slavery either... Two chances to forbid slavery and the bible failed on both counts

4everGod:


They are using the 21st century to look at slavery of then and thats being irrational and dishonest. If they would look at the history of slavery in Biblical times i am sure this thread would have been so unnecessary .

Obvious scriptures like the one you posted which clearly shows the reason why "slaves" were accepted are being dishonestly overlooked by them.

I have seen people in this 21st century who ask "city" people to take their daughters to Lagos and let her work for them as long as they will send her to school and the city people would accept. I am sure they would say that is not how Biblical servitude was.

Really, when those daughters are taken to Lagos, do the parents of the girls say something like: "U can beat out daughter but if she dies within two days of being beaten, we will report to the police. However, if she dies after two days of being beaten, you are free to go, all is well."

chrmn1:


Friend, I never lived in that time and neither did you. If you tell a slave, 'go home. You're free' and he says 'no' what do you call that. Well it's a mutual agreement in my book

Deuteronomy 15:16 But suppose a male slave says to you, “I don’t want to leave you,” because he loves you and your family and is happy with you

Why are u ignoring the other slaves that were purchased from foreigners the same way people buy rice?? Stop avoiding the real issues, this is a public forum

4everGod:


You read the Bible as a story book and that is why you have so much conflict. I asked you this yesterday.

You are an atheist! Why does the content of the Bible upset you so? If it were to be a Harry porter book or a book about zeus would it upset you this much? If in Harry potter books he killed 1million people would it upset you? I believe it wouldnt and you know why? Its because Harry Potter isnt real! But deep down inside of you , you know God exists which is why you are so incensed by the things you read about which you claim He did even when he did not do them.

Can you honestly be upset over the bad stories or acts of Chike Obi or the drummer boy?

The people around me don't live their lives in line with harry potter or the drummer boy. They don't try to defend the terrible acts committed in this book... But Christians who are the people that surround me use the bible as guide book for their lives, if God condemned slavery in the bible, maybe our forefathers wouldn't have been bundled to Europe to work on plantations, setting Africa some centuries back... So, u see, it might be fiction but it's harmful...
Did I answer your question?? I think I did

4everGod:


If you say slavery is wrong in those days when they believed the best way to escape hardship was to attach themselves to the well to do would you have abolished it especially since the slaves under their law were not seen as slaves per se but as helpers and as people being helped and they had protective laws which gave them rights. Real slaves have no rights but these slaves had rights.

God knowing that the issue of slavery would be a thing of the past i am sure did not prioritize the issue especially since there were protective laws over such "slaves".

However if you wish to change a system would you do so via external laws which could be circumvented or via the laws written in the tablets of our hearts so we would love our neighbour as ourselves?

If we all became ambassadors of love via the Holy spirit who sheds the love of God abroad in our heart is that not a much better approach? Is that not what Christ came to do?

Is slavery of greater importance especially since it was transient or is the salvation of souls and redemption of mankind of more importance?

Onesimus was a slave who found Christ. Did his slavery deter his walk with Christ? Its just like what Jesus said in Luke 10: 42 when addressing Martha

41“Martha, Martha, the Lord replied, “you are worried and upset about many things. 42But only one thing is necessary. Mary has chosen the good portion, and it will not be taken away from her

As long as the slaves had protection and still had their needs met which made them agree to serve in the first place all was well as that was not an emergency situation.

Well, here's the thing. The slaves didn't have protection. If they died from the beating they received after two days of the beating, there was no justice for them.
And you asked which is more important between slavery and salvation?? Well, let me ask you, which is more important, eating shellfish or slavery??

MrPresident1:
Whenever God hands over rulership of the world to any race/people, he automatically makes all the other races subject to this elevated race, in other words, the elevated race rules over all other races.

The race that is presently in charge of the world is lord over all of us at the moment but they will not be in charge forever. Power will change hands to black people when Jesus Christ returns in only a few days, perhaps even tomorrow sef

SMH

4everGod:
author=Seun post=51755113

Are we in that era now? God respects desires and decisions. When a man willingly submits himself to slavery due to a need the best God or anyone can do is to protect which is why scriptures and instructions like these were given

[b]"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished." (Exodus 21:20)

"If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. "And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth." (Exodus 21:26-27)

"He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:12)

"Six days you are to do your work, but on the seventh day you shall cease from labor so that your ox and your donkey may rest, and the son of your female slave, as well as your stranger, may refresh themselves. (Exodus 23:12)

"You shall not hand over to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you. (Deuteronomy 23:15)

'If a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard to you that he sells himself to you, you shall not subject him to a slave's service. 'He shall be with you as a hired man, as if he were a sojourner; he shall serve with you until the year of jubilee. 'He shall then go out from you, he and his sons with him, and shall go back to his family, that he may return to the property of his forefathers. 'For they are My servants whom I brought out from the land of Egypt; they are not to be sold in a slave sale. 'You shall not rule over him with severity, but are to revere your God. (Leviticus 25:39-43)

"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment." (Exodus 21:2)

He who pampers his slave from childhood Will in the end find him to be a son. (Proverbs 29:21)[/b]



Again that era has passed refer above. Besides the new testament advocates for freedom.

@jcross19, thank you for being honest about this and taking the right moral stand; you have my respect.

When a man willingly submits himself to slavery?? God said slaves can be purchased from foreigners, how is that willful submission??
So if a man destroys the eyes of his slave, the only punishment is they have to let the slave go. How is that fair??
And only Hebrew slaves are entitled to bring released after 7years??
The whole idea is inhumane, u shouldn't try to defend it. You are better than that

chrmn1:
You see you wouldn't know anything about God's original intent as regards divorce if the Jews did not task Him on the issue. He detailed to them how they must live together (slaves and masters) if there was a mutual agreement in that respect. If you read through that passage you'd see that there was a portion where it was stated that if the master wishes to allow the slave to be free and the slave preferred to remain a slave, then the master would bore the ear of the servant. If you tell a slave to go free and he insists that he'lllike to continue in the slavery then maybe the terms were not so harsh on the slave. God's omnipotence will not override human free will else we'd become robots.

What are u saying?? How many slaves will insist to continue as slaves?? Even maids are still being abused in the 21st century... And stop using the phrase mutual agreement in a discussion about slavery... Slaves were merchandize... God said Israelites can buy slaves from foreigners...
And that part about god not overriding freewill?? That doesn't stop God from forbidding slavery, at least he had the time to forbid shellfish

Richirich713:


Man is contingent, so I don't see that as being a possibility.

Man is contingent... What is God then??

4everGod:
--

First we must acknowledge that u copied this epistle from a website which I already read from...

Second, that God did not expressly support slavery doesn't mean he didn't support it... The support can be implied from the verse that authorizes Israelites to purchase slaves.

Third, it's not enough to not support something as evil as slavery, especially for a Good and powerful God. U have to expressly condemn, forbid and preach against it. If humans are looking to you for direction, u had better offer that direction unless u are not doing a good job as God

Fourthly, that the slaves were not chained at the necks doesn't make it any less slavery. They were human beings sold as merchandize and used for labor. That's the definition of slavery.

Fifthly, u mentioned that slave owners were not allowed to have sex with another man's slave. By implication, he could sleep with his own slave. That's rape.

Sixthly, and probably finally, Jesus, the cooler version of his father with better temperament didn't forbid the act, he had time to forbid swearing and divorce but no time to forbid slavery. So also, all his disciples, including Paul.

I honestly believe the worse thing about religion is that it forces us to justify acts of inhumanity by and for God. Acts that normally go against our conscience. Any Christian that can respond to this comment Post by post is welcome to do so.

Richirich713:


The analogy wasn't meant to explain how God is self-existent, it was meant to give us an idea about what it means to say an explanation of some fact is explain by itself.

"Explain how God exists not how his nature exists?"

How can I explain how God exists? What does that even mean? Should I answer by saying God has always existed, that he is eternal and self-existent?

So, man's existence cannot be explained by itself but God's existence can