₦airaland Forum

MuttleyLaff:
and you made a right dog's dinner of it

Dont worry, everything will be OK in the end frank317

I dont believe you heard

Did I hit on a raw nerve?
Or you're moonlighting for the Office for National Statistics?

I am not surprised
Let me pray for you. Receive! Receive it!!

He who wakes up early, is bound to yawn all day long

Reiterating, killing Satan from the onset the thing was found in him would not solve the matter because the situational problem will reappear on scene again like it did with Adam and Eve.

The only way God, as Jesus, could have legally died, as part of the solution to the problem,
is by being sentenced to death by the legal authority on earth, and so thereafter killed crucified on a Roman cross

Why are you in a haste?

You thought wrong

Do you know what "deja poo" is?
It is the feeling of having heard and read a crap remark like this before

You laugh. I know and understand why.
As, saying to you, the more you try to look at the answer(s), the less you see and none the wiser you are, is truth that is stranger than fiction

Why did God not kill Satan from the onset. The question was asked by a 13 years old who understand that ur God's action didn't make sense. U said God knew man would fail and put some things in place... Yet a 13 year old is questioning ur Gods action.

RuthlessLeader:

Jesus is his own father and son, what mental disorder do we call this? And why does jesus talk about the father like he's a different person?

Ihedinobi3:
Your first statement about a perfect world that cannot stay perfect is weird. It's just like saying that a car that was built to be good was never good just because it went bad from use. If you abuse anything that you possess the ability to abuse, then it will only deteriorate in quality. So, God's Perfect World could be corrupted because the Stewards He entrusted it to possessed both the ability and desire to corrupt it.

Jesus is Himself God. And Jesus Himself decided that because He loved His Creation so much, He would pay an incredible price to redeem it from the mess it descended into contrary to His Will.

Indeed, the punishment awaiting the wicked was part of the preparation.

Well, man has not succeeded at keeping himself alive indefinitely, how could he hope then to preserve Creation from eternal destruction? But God has the wisdom and the power and the desire born from His Love to do so.

U call something perfect u should know what that means. He should stop calling something perfect when its not. Seriously is your God human that he can never get anything right.
So he already decided Jesus was gonna come and die even before giving angels free will because according to u he already knew the effect of the free will before giving it to man. This makes no sense no matter how many times u repeat it.
Besides the world is still messy... Things really went out of his hands. Whats then the point. He sounds clueless and dumb.

What can I say? If you will not listen to simple reason, will I force you?

What's simple reason about trying to change the meaning of regret. Why don't u edit the bible and write ur own.

My concern is just that you quote me correctly. If man had been the one created first with a free will, we don't know what would have happened. But angels were and it was one of them that started everything that you are complaining about.

The whole thing boils down to God making wrong decision.

What I confess rather weird is that you think that it is a bad thing that God prepared for what would happen beforehand. Other human beings generally applaud foresight among themselves. Why is this something bad when God does it?

Its bad because the preparation didn't go well, other words the 13 years old in the OP wouldn't be askin the question. God didn't still get it right despite knowing the outcome of free will. Was he really choicless?

The world is the way it is because man sinned and still sins everyday. All the pain and suffering that exists comes from our sins. The creation that God made for us was perfect. Not even earthquakes, tsunamis or hail troubled us. In fact, the seasons that exist today and the harshness of the weather are a direct result of judgment upon the wickedness of human beings. So, why blame God? He shouldn't have given us a free will? If He didn't, would you be able to choose to come online and seek ways to insult Him or would I be able to choose to come online and seek ways to glorify Him?

Why will I not blame God? Didn't u say he knew all this will happen even before giving man freewill? That's exactly why I blame him.

His existence is not mutually exclusive with what you see. He is a loving God and cares for all of His creatures so, of course He wants them to have a real choice whether to love Him back and an opportunity to learn Who He is if they want to. So, free will and an environment designed to demonstrate His Attributes to them must be made available to them and they must be allowed to react as they choose in order to learn Him better. If they rebel, they must know that as loving as He is, He will not indefinitely tolerate insolence from them. If they submit lovingly to Him, they will learn that He is faithful beyond words to those who do.

Ya, he knew man will make wrong choice and still gave man free will expecting the same man whom he knew will make the wrong choice to make the right choice.. Do u even listen to urself? Is God daft? Are u trying to insult ur God?

Likewise, your suggestion was meaningless to me. You see, we have opposite appreciations of reality.

I am glad u know this.

Since the Bible does not say that God "has been running helter skelter to fix him (sic) mess", I can only wonder what you mean when you say, "if the Bible is true, then...[that quote is true too]". That's what I keep telling you is a straw man fallacy. If you don't believe the Bible's actual position, then of course ignore it, argue against it, but don't keep attributing things to it that it didn't say. That is a very low thing to do to any one and don't you atheists pretend to be better than us Christians? Where have I misrepresented or misquoted your own arguments? But I keep having to correct you about mine.

Are u saying God is not trying to fix things?

"Prove what?" How are you not ashamed to ask me that? You spend responses telling me that you will prove it but you want me to answer this or confirm that you can quote this or that. Now, you don't know what it is you said you would prove. Have I said in any post or response that God enjoys having the devil possess Boko Haram and kill Christians? This is your argument and you have added another one: that God enjoyed "devil deal (sic) with Job". It is not my responsibility to defend what you claim. It is yours.

Now, do the honorable thing and defend your claims.

It is already implied in ur statement. God allows devil deal with Christians exactly the way he allowed the devil kill Jobs kids. U said its love if he allows the devil kill ur children. Why will he be allowing it if he does not enjoy it?
Heck he even ask Satan "have u seen my son Job?"

Look, you say that you are not arguing definitions with me, then you promptly offer the same definition that you have been insisting on from the beginning in the bold text. That definition is a flat-out lie. It is false and you know that it is because I offered you a dictionary definition. So, you are being mischievous here. If "assumption" does not fit what you meant to say, find another word. Don't keep arguing that the word means something that it doesn't and then turning around to attribute that meaning to my own use of the word.

Whatever... Assumption is not a confident statement.

It's your choice what to believe.

Oh I am just learning this now.

@the bold text, that was what I was warning you about. Nobody knows their time. That you do not wish to die soon does not mean that you won't any more than it means that you will. I don't know what will happen to you when. This is why I am telling you what I am telling you. What fear I have of what comes after death is a fear that I have for you. I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ already and I am fighting everyday to grow up in Him and be made perfect like Him. So the fear I have is of standing before Him as a believer and having failed to reach full spiritual maturity and production for Him. That will not put me in the Lake of Fire but it will certainly disappoint Him. And I don't want to disappoint Him because He loves me more than anyone has ever managed to or could manage to. But what you are risking is getting thrown into the Lake of Fire for all eternity.

Yawns... Tell me more mythical tales.

So, don't pity me. Worry about yourself, Frank. I am already spoken for by the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ and if I don't get the money, fame, women and all the other fun things of this life, I didn't lose very much.

Why did God not kill Satan from the onset. This is a question asked by a 13 years old after ur God supposedly prepared for what's to come upon knowing that giving angels free will will mesa things up.

Originakalokalo:
He wants a spiritual being to be caught on camera.

Many of you talk as though God should just come and appear to you and say.. "Yes, See me and believe "

He has billions of powerful angels worshipping him.. Beings of dread and fear. ..

He has humans who belong to him in billions..

You and people like you are inconsequential to him.

If you want him to reveal himself to you, you will PLEAD AND HUMBLE YOURSELF BEFORE HIM.

Else, this attitude of "show yourself else I won't believe you" will not yield anything..

Nobody is going to please and humble himself for this ur so called loving God to show himself. if he cannot show himself he can remain quiet and stop asking us to worship him.
every time worship worship worship... him no de tire?

MuttleyLaff:
Do you see how dishonest, insecure, ridiculous and ludicrous you sound with this absurd and bizarre scenario

What has "why did u beat that kid" got to do with "Why didnt God kill Satan from the onset?"
Even if, I am to play along with your weak and useless scenario, please tell me:
1/ Who are you, what are you to John and the kid?
2/ Is John sovereign?
3/ Does John have the "God prerogative"?

Typical of the frank317 I am increasingly becoming to better know,
you in a careless and unwise way have hastily concluded without due careful consideration of all the facts, that John is mentally unstable.

I hope the fictitious John sues the pants off you, in an imaginary court of law

Sorry I overrated ur intelligence.
Was actually just showing u how unreasonable ur answers are.

You're just being plain resentful
and trying to console yourself into a false sense of security

Ok

You havent the stamina.
Asides your lack of stamina, biblical illiteracy and extreme ignorance, one of your other main challenges is information overload
You cant handle biblical knowledge and/or information
Too much of it, does a flying swoosh, over your head.

I hear

Silence, as in, not writing anything at all, is better than reading this pitiful temper tantrums and emotional outburst.

Lol... How old are u?

I have given you few reasonable answers to start with
but the truth doesn't fit your agenda

No, It doesn't make sense to me.

You've got more jokes, right?
That has to be a joke and lazy assumption, to say that satan is crawling under God's skin

Have you not yet read the memo that Satan will get his comeuppance in the end,
Now that you know, I suggest you mind your own business and begin worrying about yourself or destiny

Yawns

Killing Satan from the onset doesn't and wouldn't solve the situational problem because it will
on scene appear again

Ya... Killing his son instead will solve the problem. Tell me why have ur God not solved the problem yet. I think ur God is enjoying having Satan around.

It has to be ignorance that makes someone make such a laughable comment like this

I repeat... U can never answer the question. Stop wasting your time trying. Ur answers are making ur God dumb.

The more you try to look at the answer(s), the less you see and none the wiser you are.

Lol

xpmode:
Simple answer is, no one dies in eternity, you only die in this world of sin

I can say this is the best answer I have seen so far. Yet... I can only assume that God made a mistake from the beginning. He created sometimes he couldn't control.

Aarondan:
Remember, Satan challenge God in the midst of other angels, if God had killed Satan t will make it look as if Satan was right and God was wrong. So he let me to prove himself wrong

This is not true. If Satan was actually wrong, killing Satan off will not make him right.

MuttleyLaff:
OK, and to appease you and MrBible,
here are a few reasons, out of the many other simplistic excuses behind why God didnt kill Satan from the onset
1/ It is because God is sovereign is why God didnt kill Satan from the onset
2/ It is because of the God prerogative, that God didnt kill Satan from the onset
(frank317 being an author, shouldn't feign not understanding what this is about, frank317 practices this a lot with his narrative characters)
3/ It is because killing Satan straightaway, from the onset, isnt going to immediately, solve or deal with the situational problem
4/ It is because Satan will be a tool and part of the solution

Sorry but non of these answers the question. To any sane mind all these reasons are baseless and does not even attempt to answer the question.

Me: john, why did u beat that kid.
John: because I am stronger than him

My conclusion will be that John is mentally unstable.

I know what I bring to the table
Are your teeth strong enough to bite and chew on it?
Is your stomach strong enough to hold it in without retching up?

This is just one of ur rantings... Everybody feels good about themselves.

You think I am out to waste your time, you say. Pfft
I freely, willingly and as long as I can will, give over time for you
Why? because lies can only manage to run sprints, but the truth runs marathons

Ok

Your ignorance on this matter humbles me

Ya.... Make things up and claim u are a genius... Isn't it what that bible is all about? It gives everyone opportunity to form opinion about a supposes God and claim his view is the best. Wonder why we have many churches.
The bible is as easy to understand as a nursery book. The story behind Satan and God is a myth. That's why even a 13 years old can ask such a sensitive question. Yet u cannot come up with a reasonable answer. If God is who u say he is satan has no business crawling under his skin.

The 13 year old will come out more enlightened because the knowledge gap that prompted the question will have been filled and dealt with

Ur opinion... Again, why did God not kill Satan from the onset... This is a jamb question u can never never answer.

Did you proofread what you just typed up here?
Did you muse over the cat and police dogs picture I attached up there, asking for an appropriate caption?

Try again... The more u answer the more u make ur God sound clueless.

RuthlessLeader:
Why so aggressive like a dog marking its territory? You know you and your crew haven't said anything to answer the Op

I seriously dont know what he is feeling like. God perhaps.

If the 13 year old was reading their response she would even be more confused.

Imagine, God knew freewill will mess his world up after introducing it ans made preparations for the worst that will happen... yet today, millions are on their way to hell with the devil. SMH, so much for putting things in place.

They are all a bunch of clowns.

MuttleyLaff:
I was just about wondering when you will admit you are out of your depth....
Scurry away with your tail hid and dangling between your limp legs

lol... i just didnt know where to begin with u... I am glad i am not the only one who feel that way.

I could spend the whole month interacting with u and end up wondering if u even know what u are sayin.

I think u are just out to waste my time... sorry, i dont have time for waste.

Ihedinobi3:
I am back for now. If I leave unceremoniously, bear with me, please.



It does seem like the prospect of not having me back here made you go to town with straw man fallacies and ad hominem.

No, we obviously are not. I could say it a thousand times though and you'd still say this. I am not sure if you really don't understand what I am saying or if you are deliberately misrepresenting my arguments. Let me restate it for clarity:

God created a perfect world which He wanted to remain perfect but which He knew would not. So, He prepared even before Creation to fix the mess that would occur when some of His creatures decided to rebel against Him.

Listen to urself. What kind of word salad is this? "God created a perfect word he wanted to remain perfect which he knew would not" does this even make sense?
What's perfect about a word that cannot remain perfect? That means God was not capable of keeping his perfect world perfect. God wanted something he knew he couldn't get? Eyaa...Lol.
OK so he made preparation knowing his perfect world will not be perfect.
So is he preparation not for jesus to die? So why do u act as if I don't get ur when I said he asked Jesus to prepare for death in 4000 years time...
Is the punishment of those who disbelieve not part of his preparation?
How does ur explanation above make ur God more greater and reasonable than any man on earth... Even my six year old niece will have a better plan.

Regarding regrets, there is such a thing as anthropopathism. It is a well-known, well-documented literary device. The Bible uses it to make God understandable to human beings. He never regrets anything because He knows all things, even the end from the beginning. But how are we to appreciate how God is toward us and toward our choices unless it is described in terms conceivable to us? Feel free to share whatever you think is the answer beside anthropopathism.

The bible said God regretted creating man.. U can go and change the word in the bible or edit it to mean what u want regret to mean.

Now that you presented the quote itself, I'm fine. As the quote said, it was giving free will to the angels, not to man that I said led to everything. But it is true that possession of free will by man also played a part but I have reasons for putting things the way I do.

Angel or man... Did the result change? Everything ur God creates fell apart, and the worst part was that he knew they would fall apart and made preparation... Yet all we still have is a world filled with pain, sorry, happiness, sadness, ups and down. And the devil has been doing his thing. So what did he put in place that makes any sense after knowing that the free will he was given was going to mess things up?
Is he that clueless? I still think the belief is stupid.

If you think you know better about being God, that's between you and God. I have no place in that argument. My bit is to make sure that you get what I believe the Bible to say.

Your God does not exist. If he does we wouldn't have such an unorganized world.

I thank you for the thought for my welfare. Now, my own bit of advice to you is to take a moment and really think about your opposition to God. What really do you gain from it that is worth the risk of losing eternal life just because you're mad about what pain and suffering we must endure for not much more than 80 earth-years? Even as an unbeliever, you still suffer even if not as much as a believer may? Yet, believers have real comfort and a real hope that gets them through the pain. What do you have? Sex? Drugs? Alcohol? Sports? Music? What is it you have that doesn't get old and boring sometimes?

Your God does not exist... If he does then he is the most clueless God in the history of Gods.
Sorry I don't believe in eternal life and all that, so what I wrote above makes absolute no sense to me.

Nope, I am not at all. Nothing about this conversation is new to me or has taught me anything I didn't already know. Man and the angels are all learning about God from man's experiences in this life, yes. Man is suffering today because man sins. God did not set us up for suffering. That is just the consequence of sin. He has actually been working on removing suffering completely from His Creation. And not too long from now, He will.

I'd the bible is true, than man is suffering today because he has a clueless God who knew giving man and angels free will will mess his world up but went ahead to to give to them and has been running helter skelter trying to fix him mess.

LOL. This is what you said:

"...ur God enjoys watching the devil possess bokoharam to kill his followers?"

Now, please prove it. I don't know if you thought I'd forget.

Prove what?
That ur God does not see bokoharam kill Christian?
That he is doing nothing about it?
That he is not enjoying it (the way he enjoyed devil deal with Job)
That u don't think he should do anything since its part of his love even if its ur family that is being killed.
Prove what exactly... Everything I said is based on ur response to the way he allowed Satan deal with poor Job.
U called it love and said u wouldn't mind him doing it to u... U wouldn't mind if he allows bokoharam kill ur family after all u will get over them, beside God understand that there is a greater life after death so its good he allows the devil deal with u.

You can't take a word, make up any meaning you like for it and try to force me to accept your meaning and even apply it to what I say too.

Oga..I never was arguing meaning of assumption with u... I only said u shouldn't take it too seriously. I didn't know why u had to pull the dictionary. Assumptions are just mere guess works that could be right or wrong. They are not confident statements... I am not contesting meaning of assumption with u, I said don't take it seriously. Simple.

Okay. However, let me point something out to you. We never know when our time will come. You don't control the moment of your demise. The sooner you quit fighting against God - a losing battle, if there ever was one - the better for you. Once you breathe your last, all chances are done. You don't get any other opportunity. All you will have to look forward to is an eternity of pain and suffering like nothing you are complaining about here.

I am sorry ur God is as fake as bobrisky's hair. When ever I die is okay. I just do not wish to die soon.I am not like u that is scared of what will happen after death... U can live with that fear all ur life... I only pity u.
However i wish there is after life... Ur God need to be punished for creating such a shitty world.

MuttleyLaff:
"Many atheists pretend to have discovered the secret to intelligence once they reject Christ but that is really nonsense.
Some whose arguments I once knew are now very intellectually lazy since rejecting Christ.
It is perfectly normal to atheism to be that way because atheism is a reaction against emotional and intellectual stress.
It is by definition very lazy philosophically."
- Ihedinobi: 8:41pm On Oct 23 ©

You've so far ticked almost all the boxes
Played the emotional card - check mark
Played the ad hominem card - check mark
Played straw man - check mark
Have an inner twisted mind - check mark
Have no stamina - check mark

I willingly pay attention to you
because if you are sharing something worthwhile, then its time, really not wasted.
Nothing valuable can be lost by taking time

There is a difference between suffer fools gladly and your "obviously want to waste my time" funny feeling
It's a perspective thing

Do you know what time it is, frank317?
It's high time you drop the sentimental nonsense and excuse(s)
Wake up and smell the coffee frank317

The light of the truth can be harsh to those that are in the dark.
It's why, sometimes it’s enough, just to plant the seed, walk away,
and leave the flower, to grow on its own.

As far as I am concerned u don't even have a point to make... Whenever I read ur post I wonder if u were responding to what I wrote. U are not making any sense to me sorry.

MuttleyLaff:
What answer did I give, that you claim is the same thing Ihedinobi replied

I hope we arent
but just to be sure we are singing from the same hymn book, the topic is: Why didnt God kill Satan from the onset?

It is a disadvantage that you arent at the least, a fledgling coder or programmer.

Rudimentary knowledge of coding or programming would make a world of difference in your understanding
that will prevent you from asking or quering, how if God knows, did God still went ahead creating Adam, knowing Adam will fail etcetera

You havent started again showing inadequate awareness of the facts.
Adam isnt the first given free will. Adam isnt the first to sin or if you like, isnt the first to fail
So you see, before Adam made his debut, we've had a situational problem,
calmly hanging in the shadow & wing, eager and keen to fester, if given half the chance

You're acting as if your fart has a deodorized good smell.
That's how and why I typed that you made a hypocritical remark.

What specifically and where exactly is the disgust in the comment you turned your nose up at

U obviously want to waste my time.

MuttleyLaff:
You come across as a highly imaginative, easy going, clever and smart guy
so what are you grousing about?
Why and what about God are you angry over?
Do you think you remotely have a legitimate right to settling a score with God?
Why the highly charged up negative energy?
Have you a beef and/or problem with God?
What gangan is the problem bro?
What issues are you accusing me of prolonging frank317?

Anger with a God again... The answer u gave in ur last post I quoted was the same thing Ihedinobi replied... Was wandering why u came in like u had something new to say.

This is lacklustre, below par and as dull as ditchwater conjecture laced with ignorance

You are too uninformed and reveal your inadequate awareness of facts
and unsurprisingly, is why there are more holes than Swiss cheese in your warped summation

#IfYouKnowYouKnow
If you know, you know and who no know, no go know

No wonder you're an author, as opposed to, at the least, be a fledgling coder or programmer

Are we discussing a completely different topic here?

Well... I might not be a programmer, but coming up with my kind of stories required deep out of the box thinking...

Well back to topic... Actually my little narration above sums up what u mean when when u say God knew man would fail if he gave him free will and pit some plan in place to redeem man... I guess this messy world we are in is a result of his well thought out plan.

What a hypocritical remark to make.
Are you absolved from being disgusting and/or from never being disgusting?

The cheek of it, calling good old fashion basic algorithm disgusting. Pffft. SMH

I am not absolved from being called disgusting... How does that stop me from seeing this shitty believe of urs as disgusting.

MuttleyLaff:
I sympathise with you and your limitation (s)

Its the former tuned into the latter

He is not hoping they won't
but it'll be nice if they didn't, as this conversation at the least, wouldn't be seeing the light of the day.

Having said that, the reality is that failing will ultimately make them a better person
and decisively be able to deal with the other situational problem

God is aware and sure they will disappoint
What was put in place is evidence He knew they will.
Work had been planned and put on standby to get set into motion from after when they will fail from eating the fruit

Why then are u prolonging issues.

Isn't this the reason why I gave this response to Ihedinobi:

God knew they would fail if he gave man free will and he started putting plans in place... He was like.. "Hey Jesus my son. I am going to give man free will and he will fail so prepare urself for sacrifice in 4000 years time."
He also put plans in place to curse Adam and Eve and pursue them from the garden of Eden. He also put plans in place to destroy the earth with water in 2000 years time. And he put plans in place by building hellfire for those who use their free will wrongly.

Its a disgusting belief I think.

MuttleyLaff:
I knew its only going to be a matter of time before you start casting aspersions.
Please hold on to your knickers and stop getting emotional

It will be a very good and welcome expected outcome if they don't fail
and the implication is that we wouldn't in the first place be having this conversation

As I said earlier, I know you are an author frank317
but I am not sure if you're savvy at all in coding and/or programming
because the implication can also aptly be told with feature(s) of coding or programming

Pls does anyone else understand what this guy is saying?

It will be and welcome expectation if they don't fail... Is this in ur mind or in Gods mind?
If God already knew they will fail... Why is he hoping they won't? Perhaps he was not sure they will actually fail?

MuttleyLaff:
The implication of what answer?

OK good exactly
and I am quite glad you accept plus agree that God is omniscient, knows the end from the beginning, knows everything.

No, I am not saying, what God knew was probably wrong
neither am I saying God's knowledge was a guess work.

Do you remember the context of how the two distinct comments were made?
You cojoined two disjunct comments I made to two different questions
and made it appear as if it is a solo comment

frank317:
Did God know man will fail or not?

MuttleyLaff:
>>>Yes,

frank317:
How can he trust them when he already knew they would fail?

MuttleyLaff:
>>>A moment of choice, is a moment of truth.
It is because they didnt have to fail

I know you are an author frank317
but I am not sure if you're savvy at all in coding and/or programming
You see, the implication aptly can be told with feature(s) of coding or programming

U guys like twisting simple things just to get away with ur unreasonable beliefs.

Should we even be going back and forth with this?

Its as simple as ABC

If God knew that Adam and eve were going to fail... Then Adam and even couldn't have made the choice not to fail.
If God knew Adam and Eve were Going to fail and Adam and Eve made a choice that didn't make them fail then what God knew was wrong... Or God was just guess that they might fail.

MuttleyLaff:
I said I like the reasoning(s) behind your question(s)

To make sure u know the implication of ur answer

Yes,
but your asking this question as if you dont know that God is Omniscient

OK good.

A moment of choice, is a moment of truth.
It is because they didnt have to fail

U said God knew they will fail, and u say they didn't have to fail. Are u say what God knew was probably wrong? Or God's knowledge was a guess work?

but then as budaatum will say:"...it's your God-given right to choose whichever path you want to go..."
and if they do choose to fail (i.e. not toe the line), then they'll come back stronger and better persons

If God knew they will fail and they don't fail based on the choice they have... Can u tell me the implication of this on what God knew.

Ihedinobi3:
Forgive me, but this must be my last response. I have other duties I must see to now.

No problem

This was what you said:

"You believe that a good and perfect all knowing creator created the world and one of his creation when out of control just like that and corrupted all other creations and for years this this good all powerful all knowing creator has been trying to fix things..."

There is a difference between that and what you said above. It is not my belief at all that any of God's creatures got out of His Control. And I certainly don't believe that He has been "trying" to fix anything - which is something you repeat again above.

Satan corrupted himself and seduced other angels to do the same. Later he also seduced man. But God already fixed everything in Christ. There is no trying involved, at least, not in my "belief", as you say.

I clearly think we saying the same thing.
God didn't intend to create a world with sin and rebellious beings, but that's what we have now... He even regretted creating man at a time...
Guy, accept it, things went out of his control. Ur believe is shitty.

I don't think I will correct you on anything again. But if you want to take a pot shot at God on any old excuse, by all means, do so. It's your funeral.

What's there to correct? This is what u said below
He knew that it would happen once He gave the angels a free will. This is why He made provisions for fixing the damage that would result from sin. That was the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ which redeemed Man and healed the damage in Creation and guaranteed the Eternal Family of God.
I think that's stupidity in the highest order for a God. U knew ur decision to give mab freewill will mess things up and u acted like a lost being with no other option and started deciding how u will redeem and punish man... What's that?

Incidentally, that is actually Satan's argument. Had it not been for man's creation, it may have been difficult for the elect angels to appreciate that they had a free will.

Sorry Satan is right here... No wonder God has been trying to prove a point to him since beginning of time even at the expense of Man's happiness. Rubbish believe.

Not sure what to say. Thank you?

It might also do u good to check urself in a mental home. Thank me later too.

Yes, it is my opinion that it is.

I think u are really sick bro.

As I said, can't continue correcting you. We have had a long exchange now so my previous posts will have to do the job now.

Its quite clear bro. God has set man up for suffering so that he would learn. I hope u are beginning to see he dysfunctional ur belief is.

Never mind.

Lol... U can't be feigning ignorance and ask me for proof of things u claim to know.

You and I used a word. If you have any trouble with its meaning, refer to the dictionary. If the meaning in the dictionary does not satisfy you, I certainly can't possibly do anything more myself.

There was actually no need for dictionary as we weren't even arguing on the meaning of assumption... I am only asking u not to take assumed statements too seriously.

I'm not the first Christian to be told that. In fact, they said it of the Lord Jesus too. And as I said, it's not news. And those who are looking for an excuse to rebel against God will agree with you, of course. From my perspective, atheism is madness. So it only follows that an atheist would think I am mad too.

Good to know that u are already used to being called crazy. Judging by ur responses that its love if God allows Satan to kill ur family... I think u need fast help.

MuttleyLaff:
An admirable honest and sincere emphatic reply

I am Frank, remember.

I like how you want to reason this
but what about if there is more than the eyes sees

My reason for what? Did God know man will fail or not?

He owns them that right to be trusted so He trusted them frank317
It's as simples as that frank317

How can he trust them when he already knew they would fail?

Ihedinobi3:
Well, if your summary was a demonstration of your creativity rather than any kind of accurate representation of my "belief", then it is only the same product of your imagination that you proved to be "shitty", as you say.

Ur denial tactics will not help... In ur belief:
Did ur god create the universe?
Sis he create Angels?
Did an Angel fall our with 1/3 of the angels he created?
Did he create man?
Did man fall out due to disobedience?
Did God trying to redeem man?
Did give his only begotten son in the process?
Did he destroy the earth with water at a time?
Except ur answer is No to any of the questions above..then how does my summary not describe ur belief?

You mean "giving the angels free will", right? Because that is what I said.

You're welcome to knock it. As I said, I'm not at all interested in legitimizing my choice of beliefs to you.

U mustn't be interested in anything... It's clear for everyone to see.
The fact that God knew that giving man will mess things up and called on Jesus to start preparing himself for sacrifice in years to come based on his intended plan shows how psychotic he is.

Probably because you don't want the same thing He wants?

Free will makes it possible for God to get the Perfect Family that He wants for eternity, a perfect number of angels and human beings who love the Lord God and each other and will take perfect care of the perfect creation that He will make for them at the end of all this.

Nah.. Free will makes it possible for God to blame his psychotic nature, mistakes and stupidity on man.

Yes, you can. And yes it is what Christians believe.


As I said, atheism and Christianity are polar opposites, logically speaking. I am not surprised or particularly concerned that you think I have a mental problem because I believe the Bible. I equally think that it is insane to subscribe to atheism.

Good to know u accept this as a Christian.
In fact u needn't be concerned of how I or any other person feel about ur psychotic belief. I already know u are not capable of understanding the implication of what u are adhering to. The only thing I can say to u for now is SORRY.

The two arguments that you split up here are really one argument. God wants us to be happy. That was why He made a perfect universe for us to enjoy. But our own choice to rebel against Him and do things our way is how it was ruined. If we turn to Him in Faith, He is able to comfort us through the troubles of this life so that no matter how hard things get, we will always be able to find happiness and peace in our hearts. Then, again, at the end of this life, everyone who has trusted in Him has an eternity of perfect happiness with absolutely no regrets about the pains of this life awaiting them.

Ya... Exactly how he comforted Job after allowing stand to kill all his family and inflict him with illness just to prove a point to same rebellious Satan. This love is awesome.

This is why we believers do not go looking for ways to make our lives miserable. The misery of this life exists because of sin. We do our part to do right so that we do not add to the misery but rather witness to a time when perfect happiness will once more fill God's Universe.

If we worship misery, then we would not be praying for the coming of God's Perfect Kingdom of Perfect Happiness.

U do not need to worship misery. Pain is already there for u to learn to live with because ur God has already subjected u to pain and suffering so as to learn to accept him. That's why its is perfectly OK for him to allow Satan to kill all ur family members after all, u will get over it and u will meet him in heaven to enjoy with him.
How can u add misery to ur life... Jehova will give u one when he deems fit and that will show his goodness and love towards u.

Did I say such a thing for you to quote? Of course, God is fully aware of Boko Haram and all the attacks that you refer to. He knew all about them before He even created the Universe.

OK... But sorry, what were u asking me to prove again?

I'm not sure what to make of the above. Are you forgetting the definition I copied and pasted for you?

And in ur definition I told u not to take the word assumption too seriously in which u said my my argument was with the dictionary... So I am asking why should my argument be with the dictionary?/did the dictionary ask me to take assumptive statements seriously... Did the dictionary ask me to take assumptive statements as confident statements?

No, I'm not here for that. I'm here to make sure that the record about what the Bible actually says is straight. The whole "calling each other crazy" bit is incidental. And you don't really need the viewers to judge. You can simply look at your arguments and question whether they have been straightforward and kept to the rules of logic.

Well.. I am here to show the world that u are somewhat crazy. U are not disappointing me so far. I need the viewers to judge for ur sake. I don't see u as capable to even understand the implications of ur statements. The bible is making u crazy man.

MuttleyLaff:
Frank317 are you of the view, it is unfair on Adam and Eve for God to trust them
and be left alone with the The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
cc paxonel, budaatum, vaxx

Yes..

If he already knew they would fail...what's he trusting them for?

Ihedinobi3:
Ad hominem fallacy.

U can say that again but that does not change the fact that what I summarized about ur belief shows how shitty ur belief is.

I doubt that any angel was there when God made His Plan. But as for the above, the Lord Jesus is God. This was His Plan too. I am not sure where the part about cursing humans comes from. And I don't know that eternity is millions of years. Otherwise, you pretty much got the idea.

Weather an angel was there or not does not change the fact that it clearly implied how ur God behaves when u admit that he knew giving man free will would mess things up and he began early enough to prepare Jesus doe sacrifice, and prepared to curse Adam and Eve and even prepared to destroy the earth with water and prepared hell. Yuck what a fuqed up thing to believe.

Edit: it was 4000 years from the beginning of human history, not 2000.

So? How does this imply that Yahweh knowing free will will mess things up and preparing Jesus for sacrifice being his best option does not make him sound psychotic?

I thought that I already answered. Everything that God does is good. It may hurt in the interim but He will heal the hurt in the end for everyone who waits on Him.

So I can quote u any where... If God allows Satan to kill ur family, it is very Good. If God allows bokoharam to kill ur family it is very good.
Can I also quote this as christian believe.
If u don't understand why I think u have mental problem by now, then I will not blame u.

Considering that the whole point of human history is to give man a chance to make a choice about God and to prove Satan a liar, suffering and pain is necessary. Man has to demonstrate that he finds God of greater value than his own emotional and physical comfort. This is the only way that it can be known that he wants to be part of God's Eternal Family. So, while indeed God recognizes that we hate pain and suffering, and while indeed it is not at all a thing He enjoys that His creatures should suffer, He has ordained that Man must be subjected to pain and suffering so that his own choice will be known.

Since u know pain and suffering is necessary why do u avoid it. Are u not going against ur God will whennu avoid pain and even pray he helps u minimize pain.
Its funny how u guys talk when u argue. U guys spend ur whole life asking God for a better and life filled with less or no pain. U preach love and kindness and violence free environment knowing that ur God has subjected u to a life of pain and suffering.
U know God allowing Satan to kill ur family is good but u rebuke the devil. Listen to urself

And God has also provided every comfort necessary in this life to enable the man who suffers to bear his suffering in this life. If God is embraced in faith, He Himself will comfort the believer and bring him steadily to the Day when He will heal all the pain and reverse all the suffering and substitute in its place blessing to an infinite degree.

I know right... Ur God acts like a rat that's bites and blows soft air on the wound so that u will not feel much pain.

I will look forward to it.


I am saying no such thing. I just asked you to prove a claim you made. Do you consider the occurrence of those attacks proof of your claim?

Before I answer... Can I quote u, that God does not see as bokoharam attacks Christians? Yes or no.

Your argument is with the dictionary.

How? Did the dictionary ask u to take assumption seriously? Did the dictionary tell u that assumption means a confident statement.

Yeah, I totally understand. I believe that you are crazy too to be an atheist.

Isn't a that why we are here? To call each other crazy.
But its not for us to see.. We have viewers right? Let them be the judge.

LordReed:
OMFG! The irony of asking an atheist to prove a non existent god has emotions. I am totally collapsed into a laughing ball right now, LMFAO!

To me the question was actually coming someone who has lost it

Ihedinobi3:
Straw man fallacy. Ad hominem fallacy.

I can only tell u how wack ur mental state is based on the arguments u come up with on this forum. I hope its not as bad as u are making urself seem.

Finally, an argument.

When you account for free will, then He never lost control. Granted that sin was not His Will, He knew that it would happen once He gave the angels a free will. This is why He made provisions for fixing the damage that would result from sin. That was the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ which redeemed Man and healed the damage in Creation and guaranteed the Eternal Family of God.

So, nothing ever got out of God's Control. He had a Plan from before creation and it is progressing exactly as He intended.

He knew what will happen if he gave angels free will, and he was like... "Jesus, prep urself... I am gonna sacrifice u in 2000years time because of this free will I am gonna give angels today...I am also going to curse humans, destroy the earth with water and create hell fire where Angels disobedient people will burn in millions of years time because of this free will I am gonna give angels today.
I am sure more reasonable enough angel muttered " WHAT THE FUQ"

Make an argument. This is not one.

Its a question now... Will it be a good thing if God allows Satan to kill all ur family? (Afterall u will get over it)

Quite true, we were created to desire pleasure and joy, not pain and sorrow. This is true. But the whole point of human history is to demonstrate that true Pleasure and true Joy or Happiness are only found in God, not in our own hifalutin notions about reality.

Whatever the whole point of human history is, it does not deny the fact that humans strive to avoid pain... Something ur God should bear in mind when allowing Satan to destroy the family of his followers... So stop telling me God knows physical pain is not what it looks like from his side and so he can decide to allow the devil inflict on people like Job with pain. Its unreasonable... Its something he know can affect humans and humans hate it... Its never fair that he allows it.

Where is your proof that He does?

I will give u the prove... But before then, are u saying God does not see the attacks of bokoharam?

I think you are completely missing the meaning of assumptions. An assumption may be true or false but it is a belief:

Assumption: something that you accept as true without question or proof

Source: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/assumption?q=Assumption

Oga stop talking assumptions too serious.. They are called assumptions for a reason

As I said, the very word itself implies confidence. You don't have the wiggle room that you think you do here.

And I have said that my words about u are mere assumptions... Assumptions don't imply confidence. If anything, assumptions implies uncertainties

As for sounding like a mad man, have I not said that plenty enough times? Christianity and Atheism are opposite realities. You think Christianity is insane. I think Atheism is insane. There is no reconciliation possible. So, I don't know what we have debates for. The reason I engage you and your cohorts is that I won't let you misrepresent the truth about the Bible or the Christian Faith for whatever reason it is that has you hounding Christians all the time.

I am judging from the things coming from u here bro... Its crazy.

You can never convince a mad man of his insanity so I know that you are wasting your time trying to persuade me of the "error of my ways". As much as I want you to be saved, on the other hand, I don't expect my arguments to be what makes that happen because I expect them to sound like the raving of a mad man to you.

Ya right... Have fun. At least I have the right to tell it to ur face that u sound crazy.

Ihedinobi3:
"It's clearly non sensible (sic)" is not an argument, Frank317. Make one.

Make what argument?
You believe that a good and perfect all knowing creator created the world and one of his creation when out of control just like that and corrupted all other creations and for years this this good all powerful all knowing creator has been trying to fix things... The only thing I can tell u is go check ur brain.

How did things get out of his control, Frank317? Make an actual argument.

Was it God intention for the world to be filled with evil and sin? If sin wasn't his intention yet there is sin, then the world and his creations went out of his control....

What's bad about it, Frank317? "If it's not bad to you, then ur conscience is dead" is not an argument. Make one.

I am sure there is nothing bad if God allows Satan to kill ur family... Sorry for calling it bad.

God has absolute power over life and death so that even death and suffering cannot cause more damage than He can heal or fix. It was painful for Job to lose his children. But Job also knew that physical death is not what it looks like from this side of life, so he wouldn't have suffered as much as someone who rejects the fact that physical death is not final would have.

Breaking news... Humans, even u strive to avoid pain, its our whole essence of living... Perhaps ur so called creator does not know about this, no wonder u are talking like this.

Everyday people suffer bereavement and either have more children or remarry or find new friends or get new parents. And the emotional pain does numb over time even if it does not completely disappear. This is true even of people who don't believe in God's Power to raise the dead, how much more people like me who are confident that when those we love die believing, they are in a far better place than we could possibly wish for them and that if they die rejecting Christ, then no amount of mourning will help them.

Cool... Is this why ur God enjoys watching the devil possess bokoharam to kill his followers? Let them die, their loved ones will get over it... This so much love I can now see.

Good. We're good now. When I read the Bible, I assume that it is true. And just like your assumptions about me are reasonable as far as you take into account everything I have to say and do on this platform, one's understanding of God is only sensible as far as one is willing to take all the information in the Bible into account.

If I accept things I say about u are assumptions, it means they not the fact ... They are mere assumptions... I don't take them too seriously.
Why u take ur assumptions about what u read in the bible seriously is what amazes me.

About the underscored text, that was a figure of speech. It was meant to illustrate your confidence in your assumptions about me. While your assumptions are not necessarily true because they are made in spite of me, mine about God are made on the basis of what I read in the Bible with as little personal agenda as possible with the help of the Holy Spirit and a teacher He has prepared to help me learn. So, I can make mine with confidence (that is, Faith) rather than arrogance.

Stop making up things in ur head bro.... I have never claimed confidence of my assumptions of u pls.
Ur assumptions of what u read in the bible even with the help on invisible holy spirit are making u sound like a mad man who thinks its right for God to allow Satan to kill all Jobs children. Yuck... Ur thoughts disgust me.

theoriginalgood:
Good should delete evil from the onset, but Good didn’t because Good couldn’t. What you need to know is that there is a battle between Good and bad. It is obvious Good will win, but it’s just time dependent. Bad has some power to restrict Good. This is why bad exists in the world. Humanity is bad and will be gotten rid of eventually. Sinners need to read Mark 10:18, we’re told only God is Good and this is proven to be true because all humans have an expiry date while God is eternal.

Oga... Why didn't God stop evil from the onset... This ur answer above has nothing to do with the question.

tintingz:
Oh my goodness, sigh.

Lol... U go fear fear... U are asking a different question and he is giving u an off point answer... Me think he is a programmed machine

Is evil an entity that created itself? If God is all good and this all good God creates everything, where did evil come from.

CuteMadridista:
Do you know there are people who are "alive... not perfect.... have sound mind and are strong" but they're atheists?



You survived a bullet wound and that, to you, convinced you God exists

What do you have to say about an atheist that survived not 1 bullet but 2 (two) atomic bomb blasts?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsutomu_Yamaguchi

https://www.history.com/news/the-man-who-survived-two-atomic-bombs



Does the death of those 15 people prove God doesn't exist?

This is one of the many reasons why I have long maintained despite lip service to things like selflessness and humility, religions mostly function by providing an ego trip to people that allows them to cast aside a bigger picture of reality that they're not able to make sense of, and have a nice smaller picture, with them at the center, where what really matters are those things that happen to them.

So God is good because you survived an accident. It doesn't matter that 15 other people got killed. what matters in religion is ME - ME - ME - ME. Is there anything more self centered than believing Gawd singled you out for special protection while allowing so many others to suffer and die?

I guarantee you if we had a full on nuclear war that saw 90 percent of the world's population killed off, there would be among the survivors jackasses walking around talking about how great God is and how much he loves human beings because they survived, even while the survivors would be living through hellish conditions and dealing with all kinds of illnesses. That is the power of faith, the power of delusion.

15 people died and he us grateful to God that he survived. The guys is a devil incarnate.
He was lucky, yes, but to someone with the ability of saving everyone allowed them all to die and save him shows how incapacitated his thinking is

CuteMadridista:
This is as comedic as its nonsensical

what does this even mean? the atheists he sees around him pray to his god or existence of atheists prove his god exists?

I guess he's talking about the latter cuz I've seen lots of theists say that atheist's existence is proof of their god being real. having opposition to your imaginary friend doesn't make that friend real. A mad person having his visions countered by sane people doesn't make those visions real.


The above quoted post makes no sense no matter the spin you try to put on it

It show that many Christians speak through their ass

johnydon22:
It is in our criminal law. Whether we prosecute them on many cases is another issue

The law is a useless one for all I care. If someone what's to kill himself, can this law stop him? No.
Can the law prosecute a dead person? No.

Does it even really matter if people are given the right to kill themselves or not? Is anyone capable of giving such a right to another?

Chairman, when a person is fed up of life... I mean really fed up and he wants to kill himself. There is nothing any law is going to do about it

Ihedinobi3:
Why does it bother you? The explanations make the same sense to me that an exam does. For now, man must tolerate such suffering and in the end he will be rewarded beyond everything he has suffered. It is not for nothing that lowly man will one day be greater even than the angels. In fact, he is already since God put on humanity and remains so eternally.

It bothers me because its clearly non sensible and u are deliberately insisting its okay just because u call urself a believer. So much feeble from an adult.

Even those who have no right to a job tend to demand a reason for why they were rejected after an interview. How much more the smarter angels who knew nothing like evil until Satan sinned? Of course, God is gracious enough to explain.

Of course... He has so much explaining to do. Why wouldn't he... When things went out of his control right from the beginning. He had to resort to planting unwanted trees, destroying his creation with water and killing his son.

Again, try to be honest. The fact that it is the Bible that you are attacking does not excuse you from basic rules of decency. If you are going to credit the Bible with anything, at least quote it correctly. God never asked Satan to do anything. Satan was granted permission to do what he wanted to Job and God even established limits so that Job wouldn't be destroyed by him.

God granted Satan permission do mess up Job's life. Mr man, that's bad enough. If that is not bad to you, then ur conscience is dead.

Of course it worked out all right. If Job's children were believers like their father, they were in paradise as soon as they died and are in Heaven now with God enjoying pleasures that this world has no hope of ever producing. If they were unbelievers, then they were and remain in hell and deserved all they got. What's wrong with this picture?

Right now u credited God for establishing limits that would ensure Job was not destroyed, here u are calling him a good God for allowing Job's children to be destroyed.
I am sure if the same Job (which u have praises God for establishing limits that ensure he was not destroyed) was still destroyed by Satan, u will still say it was OK since he would go to heaven.
If God allows the devil to destroy your children and spare u, then later give u another ones... How will u feel about this action?

Yet you have no difficulties explaining me to others and even to my own self although we've never met. You know all about what is in my head and how well I understand those around me but I'm the insane one for understanding God and Satan because I read a Book and have a teacher.

That's why I said that atheism is in itself cognitively dissonant.

How did I explain u to others.. Anything I say about u on this forum is just assumptions which are based on ur responses on this forum. Same thing u are doing when u read the bible.
Where did i claim i know all that is in ur head. I hope u are alright