DeepSight: The question still remains how their first ancestors learnt the same thing.
Clearly they had the same behaviour, so it wasn't something learnt over the "millions of years" excuse.
It was PERFECTED over millions of years. Lots of the ancestors died so that the ones that survived to breed passed on the traits that aided their survival. Example, sea turtles: they initially went in all directions after birth but the ones that survived were the ones drawn to the light (the ocean) and that gradually got ingrained into species cell memory
Atheists will just love the video but the truth is that it is DECEPTIVE. It is looking at Jesus from the perspective of his status today. Durring his walk on earth Jesus had no money, no status, no connections, no position, no wife, no kids, no church, no house, etc, and was totally finished at death, with his closest friends denying they knew him! Plus his disciples DID write about him and are the source of most things we know of him today! Above everything peiple constantly testify he is actually alive and active in people's lives today, and is one name totally feared by demons!
DeepSight: Well I dont believe it is all that exists. I believe it is a merely physical construct in a larger reality which also harbors near infinite dimensions and planes of existence.
What if the universe itself is infinite? See below
DeepSight: Salmon are renowned for their incredible life cycle, which famously includes a return to their birthplace to reproduce. This phenomenon is known as "homing."
Here's a breakdown of this remarkable journey:
Hatching and Early Life: Salmon begin their lives as eggs, laid in gravel nests (called "redds" in the freshwater streams and rivers where their parents were born. After hatching, they go through stages as alevins (with a yolk sac for nourishment) and then fry, eventually developing into parr (juvenile salmon with camouflage markings). They spend varying amounts of time in freshwater, from a few months to several years, depending on the species.
Smoltification and Migration to the Ocean: As they prepare for their ocean journey, young salmon undergo a physiological transformation called "smoltification." This process adapts their bodies to survive in saltwater. They then migrate downstream, often hundreds of miles, to the ocean.
Ocean Life: In the vast expanse of the ocean, salmon spend years feeding and growing, sometimes traveling thousands of miles. They are powerful predators, consuming smaller fish, squid, and other marine life, building up the energy reserves they'll need for their return migration.
The Return Journey (Homing): When they reach sexual maturity, adult salmon embark on their arduous journey back to the very freshwater stream where they were hatched. This "salmon run" is one of nature's most extreme migrations.
Navigation: Scientists believe salmon use a combination of navigation methods. In the open ocean, they may use the Earth's magnetic field like a compass. As they get closer to the coast and the mouth of their natal river, their incredibly sensitive sense of smell plays a crucial role. They are thought to imprint on the unique chemical signature of their home stream when they were young, allowing them to follow that scent back.
Challenges: The upstream migration is incredibly demanding. Salmon stop eating once they enter freshwater, relying solely on their stored fat reserves. They face numerous obstacles, including rapids, waterfalls, predators (bears, eagles, other fish), and human-made barriers like dams. Many do not survive the journey.
Spawning and Death: Upon reaching their natal spawning grounds, females dig new redds and deposit their eggs, which are then fertilized by males. After this final act of reproduction, most Pacific salmon species die. Atlantic salmon, however, have the ability to survive and return to the ocean to spawn again in subsequent years, though this is less common.
This entire cycle ensures the continuation of the salmon species, with the returning adults providing nutrients to the freshwater ecosystems and their offspring beginning the incredible journey anew. ----------------------- *Culled
Some will tell you these things are learnt at CELLULAR level. Instincts that play a crucial role in survival of a species become cell memory and are passed on at a cellular level and perfected over millions of years. This makes the infant do what is necessary for it to survive though it doesn't cognitively know what it is doing.
But like I said, the truth is, like with so many things, we really don't know for sure!
What tells newly born puppies to look for the breasts of a mother they have never seen and still cant see? What tells new born turtles born on a beach to head to the sea once hatched?
Tell me.
On this thread, I intend to citreete many examples of inexplicable instinct - inexplicable if the strict materialist random and evolutionary wordview holds true.
FreeIgboho / Wirinet / Plaetton
Some would say survival instinct hardwired into their genetic memory over millions of years, but the truth is, like with so many things, in the final analysis, we really don't know!
DeepSight: We have strayed too far from the topic of this thread. Create a new one on these matters and invite myself and LordReed there.
Well that's how these type of threads usually are - they can go in all sorts of dimensions. But we're still in the same discussion of God and why Jesus is obviously God the Son of God if we look at the evidence and NOT go by our man-made notions of what God is
DeepSight: I really cant see the problem you are trying to create, especially since you qualified it with the bold.
These kind of discussions have to be qualified because you don't know what you don't know that you don't know and you don't know what constraints were placed on your brain so you have to always say from what perspective. If you place God within this system of things then it becomes quite a legitimate question to ask where God came from or who created God
DeepSight: Absence of all existence is nothing. I repeat: there is nothing like nothing. And since something cannot come from nothing, the fact that anything exists is proof of the existence of an eternal and self existent something - which is what God is.
I'm saying God is not involved in this "nothing" we are discussing. I'll give an illustration: if this universe were a simulation in a computer, from the perspective of those within the simulation what existed before the simulation was launched is non-existence - unimaginable nothing. But outside the computer a whole "spirit world" of totally different reality exists which is where we locate God. What we are concerned with is world within the computer reality. And in that reality what existed before the simulation was launched was nothing - from perspective of those within the simulation.
DeepSight: Good - therefore understand that there is nothing like nothingness. There is only somethingness. Infact, this is one of the fundamental logical proofs of the existence of GOD - the eternal and self-existent something.
Of course there is absence of existence. Just because you can't imagine absence of a cup does not mean there is no absence of a cup (you can imagine a cup but not "no cup"}. God has to exists in an entirely different dimention or system of things outside what we are discussing
DeepSight: The problem is there is noting like nothing. Nothingness, by definition, does not exist.
😅It's like saying "does.not exist" does not exist. That "does not exist" is what is called nothing. It is absence of any existence and is impossible to imagine because anything you imagine is something!
DeepSight: One struggles with words in existential matters. When I say continuum, I don't mean that it is moving. It is just there, but the fact that it will forever continue being there is the sense in which it is a continuum.
Also I understand what you mean by infinite void being problematic. It's just for want of better words. I really mean infinite space but that will amount to using the same word to define itself. We can think of a better word. Perhaps expanse, extent or latitude.
DeepSight: As I explained, words are a challenge. I would stick with "continuum" for time though, in the sense that I explained it, and will even also use it for space in the same sense - namely that they continue to exist being self existent. Note that this is a very different sense from the moving time perception that many have when they use the same word.
As for void, I already offered alternatives such as "expanse."
Thanks. I would say you actually defined what you say scientists call time which is indeed a continuum and which of course cannot exist without the universe if the universe is all that exists.
The word you are looking for is "nothing". That's what existed before the universe if the universe is all that exists. Once you introduce something you have infinite void (void of that thing you just introduced). You can't have void if nothing exists, just as you can't have up without down. Therefore if the universe is all that exists it can be said that infinite void ("empty space"} was created by the universe coming into existence.
DeepSight: Somehow I would not have suspected you of being profound enough to use the phrase "eternal now." It is a very profound term because the truth is that whereas people have this perception that time moves, it in fact does not move anywhere. It is events that occur within its stillness and it is the difference between those events that we record as passing time. Time as a dimension of motion is therefore what scientists refer to as time. It is not real time. Real time is like one single eternal moment.
Again, well done. Because that infinite void which we call space is very tempting to see as nothingness and yet it is not nothing.
Thanks. In that case then "real time" is NOT a continuum. So are you withdrawing your previous definition of time?
"Infinite void" is simply another way of saying nothing. It is introduction of something that turns it into Infinite void. If nothing exists then "Infinite void" makes no sense
Time is the continuum into which events are interpolated. Space is the void into which things are interpolated.
Thanks 4 your quick response. Are you then saying that eternal now is not time? As for space, that "void" is called nothing (though you can't imagine it), and isn't it existence of something that turned that nothing into space?
DeepSight: Alright. Well I imagine if I ask you to look something up, it's a specific thing. Asking me to look up the broad subject of the nature of the universe is quite different as it touches on various things including quantum physics.
Anyway pardon me there. Now, let me go the to the issues.
You see, my friend, there are all too many things that strict materialists tend to skip over when hard scientific questions are being posed on existential matters. If you point a strict evolutionist to the logical gaps in the theory of evolution they tend to wave it all away by pointing to the millions and millions of years that the process took - even where it is clear that not even eternity would suffice to remedy the logical gaps pointed out. In the same way when very serious logical gaps are pointed out to strict materialists in terms of the prevailing cosmic model of the origin and nature of the universe, they tend to quickly drop the excuse you just did - namely that what comes to us intuitively breaks down at a quantum level etc. it's generally escapist. When you speak of the fundamental principles of causality for example (without which no rational discussion can ever be had) they will tell you that causality breaks down at the quantum level. What is their evidence for this? Generally they will point to virtual particles in a quantum vacuum as proof that something can emerge from nothing. This of course fails because not even a quantum vacuum is nothing. It contains low gaseous pressure and so of course the argument fails. Nonetheless they will leave the matter at that, since they have dropped the word "quantum" believing that that word is a get of jail free card. It is not. This is specifically why I said your excuse was way to often used.
Let us just settle down and look at the prevailing cosmic model of the universe. We are told that the universe had a beginning. That it expanded from the point of a singularity with the big bang. No one of course properly defines what exactly that singularity was. We move on nonetheless. But you see, so long as a singularity existed, and there was a moment when an expansion commenced, that was an event. And events only happen within a timeline.
The problem here is that the prevailing model says that time and space were both created at the moment of the big bang. This is absurd because the bang being an event, could only possibly occur within an already existing timeline. This means that time already existed. Furthermore the very fact of expansion itself tells us that the expanding singularity was expanding into something. There is no such thing as nothingness anywhere in existence and there is no perfect void or vacuum as well. Therefore the expansion could only be happening into already existing space. It is utterly incoherent, incongruous and meaningless to say it is expanding into nothing, or it is just expanding without there being any space to expand into. That fails.
Accordingly we can tell that both time and space pre-exist the universe. This is why I feel it is wrong to claim that the universe is all that exists. Time and space exist before and beyond it. Both time and space are eternal and infinite and self existent by their very nature. They are part of the default components of reality.
So if we return to the fundamental question as to whether you can know anything outside the universe, there is alot to discuss. But I must warn you again about this question of saying that this universe is all that exists. At sometime, people may have said the same of the solar system or of our Milky Way Galaxy. People may have thought that our galaxy was the universe. Likewise in time we may well find other universes beyond this one.
When I gave you the imagery of the womb and the sea recall that I said I was leaving you with images. I didn't mean them as exact analogies the way you began to take them by saying that the baby and the fish cannot reason. I was taken aback by that which is why I said "Sweet Jesus." I was only presenting you with imagery of beings that dwell in a space where they cannot know or understand that other life and spaces exist beyond their realm.
Erudite and well-written. Kudos. However, I have to say your position on time and space have to start with definition of time and space. Depending on that definition, if the universe is all that exists then it can be said that existence of the universe is what created time and space. So please what exactly do you mean by time and space?
MaxInDHouse: First of all you are not my BROTHER in any way because you and i are not related so i'm your NEIGHBORS.
Secondly calling someone GOOD to you may mean nothing but to my own teacher it's serious {Luke 18:18} but all the same let me make this clear to you:
If you're not a JW you're my NEIGHBOR like anyone else only JWs are my BROTHERS.
My friend (see, I just called you my friend though for all I know you could be a bot), it is just colloquialism, besides you can't stop anyone from calling you brother! Soo, just relax and be the best brother you can be!
MaxInDHouse: The adjective is enough jàre {Luke 18:18} if you won't learn from me it's OK keep whatever you think to yourself i'm OK with my own faith along with millions of my brothers and sisters in JW!
Brother is a colloquial term just as when you say my good friend or such. In fact there are people who call everyone my love (which can be honestly quite annoying). You know it is not meant to be literal hence you don't fire back "when did I become your love?!"
MaxInDHouse: It's OK my brother, leave him with his I AM worshipers at least they all know JWs are people of a faith that's working {James 2:18-26} just as Jesus said:
Now this is the basis for judgment: that the light has come into the world, but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked. For whoever practices vile things hates the light and does not come to the light, so that his works may not be reproved. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that his works may be made manifest as having been done in harmony with God.” John 3:19-21
Light is what everyone can see from afar so whoever goes into the light will become vulnerable to questioning because everyone is seeing what the light captures but what happens to darkness? People can hide under it as no one could see them in order to ask them any question.
What is the name of their churches?
If they want to prove they have the light let them mention the name of their churches so we can compare teachings and benefits gotten so far but if they are ashame there is no need arguing with them it's just a waste of time!
My good brother (respectfully) you and Janosky have NOT answered a simple question: why would kings be kneeling down to pay "obeisance" to an infant? That would seem to be the very definition of worship and if it is not, please tell us what else would be worship?
You keep asking what is the name of their churches, knowing fully well the answer. They attend non-cult churches (a simple Google search will give you a list of the cult churches). I personally have attended Anglican, Baptist, Redeemed, Winners, and even Catholic - something that'd be impossible for you to do because cult churches would never allow that. I consider them all part of the body of Christ, including JW and other cult churches. Non of them is perfect neither can they be. It's up to you as an individual to perfect your walk with Jesus. Notice I said Jesus not any other name. Likewise in Acts 16 below, Jesus not any other name: 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Janosky: Satan is a cunning Usurper. Matthew 4:10. Worship is EXCLUSIVE, Jehovah God ONLY. Jesus Christ can NOT give Satan what belongs ONLY to God his Senior. Rather, Jesus Christ SUBMITS ONLY to God his Senior, John 12:49-50. Do NOT go beyond Matthew 4:10 to worship another Being called Jesus. You either get it or you don't get it.
Oga, your former President kneeling down before a prominent monarch old enough to be his child or grand child.
Oga,Is that worship?
I told you, u go explain tire. You are comparing a sitting monarch with his own family to new-born in a cattle shed!😅 Besides, it is custom of the Yorubas to always be kneeling down or prostrating. Where else do you see Jews kneeling down for anybody but especially for a nameless new-born??!!
Besides, what you were told to do is to define worship!
Janosky: Jesus said "I Am " @ John 4:25-26. @Mark 13:61-62. @John 8:24,28 Is that what he meant?
Is "OLANIYI" in Yoruba meaning the same thing in Igbo? NEVER !!!!!! @John 8:19,58, Jesus Christ rejected your claim. You don't know God his Father.
@Matthew 27:46,50 I believe Jesus. Men didn't kill the God of Exodus 3:6,14.. Jesus cried to the God of Exodus 3:6,14 @ Matthew 27;46,50.
Your throwing up Bible verse numbers all over the place means nothing. Tell us what it says like I always do. No one has the time to go chasing down a myriad of verse numbers!
It's a great error to use the word "worship" to reference any servant of Jehovah God @ Acts 10:25 or Matthew 2;11.
The proper word is homage or obeisance @ Matt 2:11 or Acts 10:25. Because Jehovah's instructions of Deuteronomy 6:13 that Jesus Christ repeated at Matthew 4:10 & Revelation 19:10 is very sacrosanct.
Common English Bible 11 They entered the house and saw the child with Mary his mother. Falling to their knees, they honored him. Then they opened their treasure chests and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. Read Matthew (CEB)
The Darby Translation 11 And having come into the house they saw the little child with Mary his mother, and falling down did him homage"
These translations examples used the proper word to refer to Peter and Jesus.
To avoid all confusion henceforth please define "worship" for us. When Satan told Jesus “if you will bow down and worship me.”, what did he mean? Why would the three kings be kneeling down for an infant? What else would define "worship"?
Janosky: @Deuteronomy 6:4 The Jews believe there is only one God, Jehovah.
@ John 10:33,(confirmed by John 19:7) the Jews believed Jesus is NOT the God of Deuteronomy 6:4.
Your Trinitarian mentors gave biased rendition of John 10:33. Them change am to capital G. The same small letter Theos (god) is @ 2 Corinthians 4:4, Acts 28:6, 1 Corinthians 8:4-5. Screenshot evidence.
Jesus quoted Psalms 82:6 (@ John 10:34-36) to prove he is a god because God his Father calls his son god. Jesus is a god, the Son of God. God's Sons=gods.
This is soo ridiculous! So how come in all the history of Israel to date he was the only one about to be stonned to death for claiming to be God?? How come he is the only one who never refused worship?? How come he is the only person we refer to as still alive and use "was" for every other person?? How come he's the only one worshipped as an infant (or how and WHY do you show "obeisance" to an infant?). Too many things point to his divinity. You keep issuing one ridiculous denial after another. The bible is meant to be taken together, NOT cherrypicked!
Emusan: So it pains you whenever JWs are being called CULT but I thought you always happy with it as Jesus was also called
No mind MaxIndhouse. All these were thrashed out in posts, as you can see below:
FreeIgboho: You goaded me into saying something I wouldn't have said! I mean how can Jews say verbatim: John 10:33,: "We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God," Yet you keep insisting they were not going to stone him for claiming to be God! Jeez! Anyway I didn't mean to be insulting and if you take it as such I hereby withdraw the statement. But if I don't use "sheepishly" what word would you advice me to use?
FreeIgboho: You just said I don't know anything and that I lack self control, yet those are not insults! Show me a list of Christian cults that does not include JW. Here's one partial list of Christian cults
It was clearly demonstrated that Jesus knew what people would think (another thing you'd associate with God). Obviously he KNEW they'd know what he meant - that he was God! Not only that, he spoke with authority. Now imagine someone who spoke with authority say emphatically "I Am" instead of the grammatically correct "I was"
FreeIgboho: Many, many things point to Jesus being God the Son of God. The "I am" thing is only a small part of it. Why not open your mind and see things as they really are? Why must you close your mind?!
franchasng: It is funny when a lizard thinks and sees himself as a crocodile.
Two minutes ago people were complaining that Tinubu was turning Nigeria into a one-party state. Don't be fooled. That hasn't changed. Don't let the purported coalition fool you. APC is still way too strong
givedemwotowoto: Yes you’re very right, so why are you bothered about the coalition? Why are you reminding them that they’re wasting their time? Shouldn’t you go to sleep knowing you have nothing to worry about? Garrarahia
I'm not supporting Tinubu at all. I'm just being realistic. Nigerian Politics is party and incumbency - all the major movers in the country are APC and the president - house, senate, SC, INEC, governors, all the ministers, army, police, etc. They'll all fold their hands and allow you to take over because "there's hunger in the land"! Even in 2023 when everyone agreed Buhari was a total failure and Tinubu a sick, old, corrupt, drug lord, APC still "won"!
Janosky: You have used words such as "cult" ,"robots & "brainwashed" to reference JW's on this forum.
Oga , is that how you show respect ?
Show where I personally called him names like he personally called me dumb (that I have no sense), and that I lack self-countrol. Also, show where I called JW robots on this thread or brainwashed. "Cult" is only descriptive - every list of Christian cults always include JW
Christianity Etc › Re: Inexplicable Instincts by FreeIgboho: 5:25am On Jul 05, 2025
in the freshwater streams and rivers where their parents were born. After hatching, they go through stages as alevins (with a yolk sac for nourishment) and then fry, eventually developing into parr (juvenile salmon with camouflage markings). They spend varying amounts of time in freshwater, from a few months to several years, depending on the species.