₦airaland Forum

Lucifyre:
You sir have got no shame and very little brain cells. Your only two braincells are basically fighting for 3rd place.

Mtcheww. This kid.

Lucifyre:
I remember when i asked this question to your cretard of a friend the context was around the bible contradicting itself which it does numerously. The coward stilldfool ran away from the convo and you his side kick after running away from your debate on another thread came to jump in after getting triggered. Well If God changes his mind explain the following:

Numbers 23:19
1 Samuel 15:29
Malachi 3:6
Hebrews 13:8
James 1:17
Psalm 33:11
Isaiah 46:9-10
Ezekiel 24:14

Contradiction after contradiction of your joke of a text.

Lol.

You're just very pathetic. Which debate did I run away from? You're just as filthy as Maggot. Going about insulting people and lying everywhere you go. Don't you ever get tired? You demon possessed daughter of the devil!

Lucifyre:
If i outrightly call you a mor.on or cretard it'll look like an insult but ur ignorance stinks to the high heavens. You are not as educated as you think you are and what little education you think you have has obviously yeilded no tangible results. Do you even know what a prompt is, you ignorant fvck?! Let me explain how daft you sound, its like saying i don't drink soda i only drink fanta or i don't eat noodles i only eat indomie. Go and educate urself on what a prompt is and wallow in shame. Told u, u would keep embarrassing urself.

Why won't you berated for gloating about debating and "defeating" (this is still funny) AI. Same AI that is malleable and unconfrontational to your responses especially around topic bordering on religion and politics. Same AI that spouts nonsense and incorrect info from time to time with the caveat made known to users by the programmers. Same AI that spouted all the dross below when people gave it prompts it specific prompts and it got confused. Its absolute stupidity to gloat that you debated and beat AI but its m.oronic not to realise that.

Mtcheww. Such a petty little kid.

Lucifyre:
Like i said you're frigging ignorant, AI can't argue in support of creationism. Then where the heck did the attached screenshot come from, slowpoke?! Its one thing to be ignorant but to be ignorant and confident is bottom of the barrel. An IT specialist capping ignorant dross, you sure its not a business center specialist claiming IT specialist. Trust me i have your time, im free this week and im going to respond to even those old topic mentions you went to dig up and show you how frigging ignorant your are.

Hahaha, bring it out from the beginning. You probably gave it my argument or you manipulated it.

AI always tells you it has no belief because it's just an AI and not human. AI would tell you it has no capacity to believe or disbelief. This is obviously manipulated. What do you intend to achieve?

AI is not a sentient entity and therefore has no capacity to believe or disbelieve in a Creator!

Lucifyre:
😅 IT specialist indeed, you are so daft its not funny. Ignorant and confident illiterate wa.nker. Keep embarrassing urself, my screenshot is what? BI?! wtf

Mtcheww. Na only mouth you get. Sense no dey

Onyedikachi231:
Redemption camp that you've made your second home but your life is still deVoid of meaning, your brain is porous, you are hopeless, your personality worthless, you leave God almighty to worship a 90 year old scammer and tribalistic bigot, a lunatic for that matter and you said you will ever amount to anything.

Imagine, instead of working on your miserable and senseless life, you are busy gallivanting up and down at your redeem camp, you should have just gone to block a 911 trailer instead of wasting your life.

Smiling. Foolishness of the highest order. You don't even know my attainment to have had the guts to spew these thrash. You think I'm here to exchange words with a nobody?

Heed my advice. Tell your kids what you've done. Recall this conversation and provide them the solution I have recommended.

Do not expect any response from me anymore. Those words I spoke into your life came from one with spiritual authority. Joke with them at your own risk.

armadeo:
You will never get it. Please forget it. This is beyond you.

I've been in ministry for more than 30yrs. I have had the opportunity to head different organizations as well. So, I can tell you that you know nothing.

You're expecting them to delegate invitations? Even when there are crises in church branches around the world that have gone beyond the capacity of the local leaders, they should delegate? Isn't that a wrong move! If they've been delegating, would they have succeeded up to this level? You're just being myopic.

Even with their jets, they still reject a lot of invitations. Many sons start churches all over the world and invite them for commissioning. Many friends all over the world invite them for ministrations. These are people who are booked 3 yrs ahead, yet everyday is full.

You also don't understand the concept of eternal rewards. You're very ignorant and dabbling into things that are absolutely beyond you.

Onyedikachi231:
And if he is scamming, these curses will dwell with you, your family, and your generations to the third and tenth.

No be the idiot Say that God punished Job becauSe Job didn't pay tithe, that is all he talks about, fleecing his members of tHeir money, while his co-stealers, tinupuuu is taxing even unborn fetus.

You think it's by speaking empty words?

Tell your children what you've done because when it begins, their only solution would be to go to redemption camp for forgiveness.

But except you repent, you've delivered a legacy of lunacy to your generation. Earth has heard, and it's already ratified in the heavens!

Onyedikachi231:
What matters are beyond him?
That he is questioning your scamming lunatic adeboye or that he is all of a sudden a deaf and dumb beast of burden that can't call out the evils of tinupuu his tribeman?
He is doing it since neophytes like you has sacrificed his brain on gullibility and ignorance.

Which is beyond him?

Just mark it. If Adeboye is indeed scamming, may your curses of lunacy cling to him. But if you are disrespecting this innocent and aged man of God for no fault of his, may lunacy cling to you from generation to generation. You would never lack a lunatic in your family for ever!

Onyedikachi231:
Meaning, there is none you can place your hand on, that your dubious pastor Adeboye is a scamming dubious Bigoted tribalistic imbecïle, a thief in suit that will die painfully And will drench in the hottest part of hellfire, God gave him a chance to turn a new leaf but he chose his stomach to God almighty, you will see how miSerable he will die. Idiotic pastorpreneurs.

I am not a member of Redeem myself!

I have watched a YouTube video in which Adeboye was lamenting about what these government has caused the people. He started by saying ",We thought these people meant well o..." At my age, I would not be scouting YouTube for you to substantiate a claim. If you love the lies you're telling yourself, hold on to them. At least you'll reap what you sow!

Wilgrea7:
Sir, I respectfully disagree. I've read the OP multiple times. The only things "scientific" about the OP are the references to the things that exist in the universe, like the eye and DNA.

Your inference that it suggests some sort of "intelligent design" or super mind is very, very perceptional. You're asking me to disprove an inference that hasn't been proven in the first place. How is that supposed to work?

I have established even in the OP that the issue does not rest on the matter of intelligent design but rather on the purposefulness of these designs, to which science agrees.

What exactly is according to science? The science of what exactly? You've been spamming the word science like it's supposed to automatically give credibility to unsubstantiated claims. Science is not some book you quote from.

Already stated in the OP. I differentiated between what my inference is (only one inference) and what we know according to science.

It's actually very interesting that you're trying to posit that science does not automatically give credibility to unsubstantiated claims. You would never say this actually if you were quoting science for yourself. However, there's no unsubstantiated claims in science. The two words don't go together.

I do not know what you infer by unsubstantiated claims since I never made any claims that I attributed to science. I only drew a single inference from scientific findings.

What branch or field of science substantiates the claim that nothing else can create something with "purpose" other than a mind? How do you even go about defining what a mind is, or what "purpose" is supposed to be? At this point you end up using very very fluid words to try to paint an idea of something that doesn't exist.

Is this not the only thing I told you was borne out of my own inference? I never attributed it to science.

I think it would be a good idea if you kindly defined for us, what a "mind" is, in this context.

We're not defining what a mind is. We're pointing out what a mind can do because of what we have seen only minds do. We know by experience that only a mind can create a purpose. For example, you're posting this argument because in your mind you want to disprove my position. You put your mind to work for this purpose. We don't need to define a mind to know that. If you have any objection, you can point us out to purposeful things in our material world that didn't originate from a mind.

No Sir. Respectfully, it does. You're trying to make reference to something that created the universe. In what other direction do you look? If you're looking for who or what created a car, do you look inside the car? What part of the wires and metals and oil suggests that the creator of the car is made of super metals and super wires and super oils?

I don't think I ever inferred what the Creator was made of to warrant this question in the first place. Please read the OP again. I went as far as establishing that we do not even talk about the kind of mind behind these things. We're not saying it's an intelligent mind, neither are we inferring that it's a human, animal or some other kinds of mind. All purposes have been known to originate from a mind. That's all. To counter this debate, the only thing you need to prove is that there are things other than a mind that have been known to create purpose. Any other thing you say does nothing to the argument. This is the only argument here. You've been arguing on things that this argument does not take a position about.

It's what I've been trying to explain since the beginning. Any claims about what a potential creator (of the universe) is supposed to be, or not be, cannot be based on what or how things exist in the universe.

Please tell me you can at least understand this line of reasoning.

You're actually not addressing the matter. I have never said the Creator of the universe should be or not be anything. I merely hinted at a Creator without qualifying the Creator in anyway.

This debate only tries to establish that where purpose is, there's of necessity a mind, because purpose has been known to originate from minds only.

For example, when I was debating the AI, one of the points the AI raised was that chaos can lead to purposeful designs. The AI then described the situation of an erosion that creates a path for men and beasts through its water course. I countered the AI that the path wouldn't be smooth, and are always known to lead to nowhere. Water does not maintain the path too. With time, the path would became a pit as water continues to erode it. It's not maintained. Which means the path does not look purposeful. The rough path that leads to nowhere is not the same as the complex system of things that are extremely orderly. A symphony of complex things compositely fulfilling a shared purpose cannot be said to originate out of chaos. The maintenance of things - for example, self-healing or repairs also destroys that position. I also established to the AI that even if the paths were smoothed and were known to lead to purposeful destinations, we'll still establish water as the creator of the path.

And of course, water is the undisputed creator of the path but a mindless water cannot create the same type of orderly, smooth, complex and purposeful paths that we have seen man creating. The difference between man and water is the mind. We see these sane type orderliness, complexities and purposefulness in our universe. Infact, on a very much higher dimension.

So, we establish that there's a mindful Creator.

Onyedikachi231:
I just told you now to bring out a source to where he was criticizing the tinubu government, just one mr man, or are you lying too like your pastors, just bring out one example na, it can't be hard, I've seen videos where he is telling us to pray but did 1 million match for Jonathan, just one video bro.

Go to YouTube. I'm not the one to teach you to confirm information before opening your mouth to criticize.

armadeo:
Again time management and delegation. If you don't get it forget it.

Isn't it a human being that fixes the dates for ministration ? Abeg

Please stick to offices if that's what you know about. Don't dabble into matters that are beyond you.

What kind of advice is that? Instead of receiving jet gifts, reject them so that you can delegate when you're needed around the world. Even in management, you cannot delegate all the time!

Onyedikachi231:
So he is 90 years now right, did the 90 also affect his mouth too?
Which government did you say he spoke against? Just give me one evidence or source to watch in youtube or any video where he spoke against the government of tinuBu that hunger is killing his church members, just one example please?

Or have they started teaching how to lie in redeem church because anything is possible with those criminals of god adeboye.

Adeboye has been speaking against the government from the pulpit. You only hear what the media push out while you keep sinning against an innocent man in your ignorance. Adeboye doesn't grant any press interview. Everything you ever hear of him are what the media pick from his sermons. Go and find out what he has said. He has spoken against this government many times. You guys are just bringing curses upon yourselves abusing an old man that has done you no wrong!

armadeo:
There's no such thing as being in two places at once. One has to be more important than the other. Delegate.

Gift of a jet. Loooooool

Anyway if dem wan buy spaceship e no concern me.

Yeah. Not gift of a jet but gifts of jets. You can keep laughing. What is impossible for you is possible for others.

In ministry, you cannot delegate an invitation to minister.

Wilgrea7:
Let me get this straight. You gave your perception of the universe.. which is based on an unverifiable claim.. and I'm the one who's supposed to come up with an "alternative" perception?

I didn't give my perception of the universe. All the claims are scientific. You should read the OP again. The only inference I drew was that Only A Mind Can Create a Purpose. This inference was drawn from our existential experience on earth.

You're the one who is required to substantiate your claim first.

Second of all. I never claimed to have an alternative position as to why things are the way they are. I only told you your perception lacks the evidence needed to be taken seriously. And so far you've not given me any reason to think otherwise.

I didn't make any claim. I only drew an inference which you have not yet disputed. Infact, you have not addressed the issue at all.

That is not a fact. That is your perception which you're trying to paint as a fact. That's the fundamental point we disagree. That's one of the unverifiable claims you keep making.

All these are according to science. Please read the OP again and confirm these facts from science literatures.

You're talking about what we've observed, so far, IN our universe. Not OF our universe. 2 different things. That's why I disagree with you.!/quote]
You should actually prove that any other thing apart from a mind can create a purpose.

[quote]Just because something applies inside a system, doesn't mean it must apply outside, or about said system. That's something you need to try to understand here.

Except you have another universe outside of here. What we're talking about is our own universe. Whatever applies outside of our universe has nothing to do with us.

Observing how things inside the universe work says very little about how and especially why the universe came to be.

Nobody is talking about why the universe came to be or how the universe came to be. We're talking about what the universe does and why it does it.

I'll say it again. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest the "things" outside the universe HAVE TO work the same way things inside the universe do. And we have no way to confirm or falsify our hypothesis.. which is why I call it an unverifiable claim.

Things outside the universe are none of our business please. No one is taking about things outside our universe.

You've neither shown something that's indisputable, nor something that's a fact.



The line between a "creator" and a "god" is one i fail to see. I only used the word creator because you were protesting against the word god. To me, they would mean the same thing, or at least be interchangeable.

Let me break it down for you.

Except you fail to see that people worship God because they believe He created them.

A creator implies a god
A first cause does not imply a creator, nor a god. But that's another topic. Not so important here.



I've addressed these points above.

If people believe that there's no Creator, they wouldn't even have the word "God" in their dictionary.

Purpose is very, very subjective. The pothole was not made for the puddle.. nor was the puddle made for the pothole.

I'm not claiming there's no purpose. I'm not claiming there is. I... Dont... Know.

Science says there is. You only don't know because it doesn't suit the position you want to make. Science has told us why these complex mechanisms behave the way they do. These are not my own personal discoveries or position.

But your reason for the perceived purpose, is one that has no basis outside the anthropogenic view of things. And like I said twice above, is based on the unverifiable claim, that things outside/about the nature of the universe function the same way things in the universe do.

There's no perceived purpose in the whole of these argument. The purposes here are scientifically stated purposes.

armadeo:
Clown. There's something called appropriate time.management./ delegation of jobs.

Clown, receiving the gift of a jet to be able to do more around the world is appropriate time management. Clown, you cannot always delegate in places where you very presence is very much needed.

samfrancis1:
boss they're getting it for luxury.. what do they need to.go.preach out there when they haven't gotten the ministration to all nooks and cranies of Nigeria yet... make your home before going to other people home ....

They have branches everywhere. They receive invitations everywhere.

You guys don't even know anything about Church ministry.

Church does not operate the way you are thinking. Ministry is not just preaching within your locality because you've not reached the nooks and crannies. Did Paul reach the nooks and crannies of Tarsus before traveling everywhere to preach?

BeigJawnson:
So you also misquote me with this comment?_

This was a response to your mention when I still taught I was responding to the same person who said only Nigerian pastors owned jets.

BeigJawnson:
Misquote me? Lol ... Dey play ....

There was someone who said Nigerian pastors are the only ones who own jets. I wanted to mention that person and mistakenly mentioned you instead. So what's the play there?

BeigJawnson:
You mumu gan ooo and you have serious problem with comprehension...



Check below and show me the bitterness in my comment in the screen shot... Someone was speaking against pastor using private jets yet I am letting him know what he is saying is wrong and yet you are there saying I have bitterness in me.... You must be mumu ooo

My God, you're just too much of a bad guy!

I mistakenly responded to you. My response to you was meant for another person. You were supposed to have immediately observed that and called my attention to it, and I would have apologized. But being immature and childish, you retorted to insults. Is this the first time anyone would misquote you on Nairaland?

akaahs:
How many properties did Jesus own to propagate the gospel?

Did Jesus receive invitations to preach all over the world?

BeigJawnson:
You have problem with simple comprehension ... You must be lacking in reasoning... Do you read my comment well? Where do you see in my comment that I am against pastors using private jets? You must have low reasoning ... Your likes skip comprehensive passages in English Exams.. . well done

Why are you so bitter? I responded to your allegation that only Nigerian pastors have jets. That's the only part of your post I read because I had so many mentions to respond to.

All types of hooligans are on Nairaland. See the response of someone who'll later refer to himself as a human being. Instead of you to simply ask me to read you reply again, you retorted to insults. Yet, you even quoted Bible. Shame on you!

BadBradley:
you're a criminal. You're so stupid and worthless because of the dumb people you convince and fleece every Sunday.

You and your master are con artists and fraudsters

The agony of a demon- possessed loser.

Wilgrea7:
What sort of "solid rebuttal" exactly are you looking for?

By definition, an atheist is someone who lacks belief in a god. You've said several times on this thread that you're referring to a creator, not necessarily a god. But somehow it's up to the atheists to give a rebuttal to something that apparently isn't related to their (lack of) belief?

Secondly, I believe we talked about the issue of a creator quite extensively.

You hold the position that the way things are in the universe, complexity and "purpose", seem as though they were crafted by a super-mind. I disagreed and said it's an anthropogenic way of looking at things. I also stated my issues with that line of thought.

Essentially you perceive things a certain way. I don't. It's become more of a debate based on our perception of a thing, rather than the thing itself. Plus you make reference to an unverifiable claim, which is the super mind.

How exactly am i supposed to offer a rebuttal to your perception which is already based on an unfalsifiable claim?

Your argument doesn't hold any water. It's very lame. If you're going to perceive things in any other way, then you must give reasons that would be persuasive enough for your alternate perception to be given any thought. You just want us to dismiss this debate because you have an unfounded objection.

I have explained my position, whether it is an anthropogenic, biogenic, geogenic, abiotic or any way of reasoning it, the fact still remains that nothing else can create purpose other than a mind. It's just as simple as that.

Atheists should be ashamed of themselves whenever they say Atheism is a lack of belief as they've been saying on this thread because they're confronted with indisputable facts about the possibility of a Creator existing. Should I create a topic now to say "I have found the evidence for a Creator." The only attackers of that topic would be atheists. It is very hilarious that you guys are now denying a position that everyone knows atheists hold. If you actually believe in a Creator, you'll also believe in a God. You don't believe in a God because you don't believe in a Creator. Very simple. So, any evidence for a Creator is an attack on atheism. How long will you continue to live in denial?

My assertion is not unfalsifiable. This position is drawn from our experiences as human beings. And there's nothing more probable than an experience. This argument is drawn from what we know by virtue of our very existence. We know that if anything, no matter how simple or minute it may be, can so exist just to fulfil a purpose, then there's a mind behind it. How can anybody dismiss the rhythmic cooperation of extremely large and complex things that science has empirically confirmed the purposes they fulfil, and all these individual purposes working together to fulfil one single purpose - the sustenance of life - according to science. How's that anthropogenic?

Purpose cannot come about through chaotic and unplanned processes. The sense of purpose in the whole structure of things is what my position dwells on, and that's what atheists have not been able to disprove.

pseudaria:
First of all, it's not through ignorance and envy, and whether you like it or not, we have every right to criticize especially when huge chunks of the populace are falling jnto abject poverty while these men of god are breaking banks. Contrast this with countries like Norway and Sweden where you hardly see any millionaire pastor yet majority of the population live in abundance and have never known hunger all their lives. It just doesn't make sense. Nigeria has one of the highest number of churches and richest pastors in the world yet christians dje everyday from kidnapping banditry poor healthcare hunger and poverty. Nations like estonia Finland Japan china with little to no churches and rich pastors have their citizens living in splendor safety and security. It doesn't make sense. These men of god are not holier than the pope and everyday the pope and the Catholic church are criticized by politicians and masses, even in movies and media, so Bleep off with this holier than thou attitude

They give. Someone like Oyedepo does not earn any salary from his church. Go and verify. He feeds people in thousands. Every year new scholarship funds are allocated to thousands of students. Please don't be envious.

It is not the responsibility of the pastors to bring an end to poverty or banditry. He was sent only to preach. And if a jet would help him do more preaching, he has every right to get it while you also have your right to criticize.

CuteEmma:
Silly people will always create excuses why they can't leave their oppressors.

A private jet is a necessity in a country where most of your followers can't afford 1 proper meal per day?? just silly.

Imagine if a parent decides to get a car because it would take them to work faster, when there's no food at home for the kids to eat

I mean, imagine that Dangote had 20 kids, and 16 are in financial wahala, 2 doing fairly okay, and only the last 1 is successful, and then he tells you that he wants to get a new yatch because he might be doing business on the water.

The pastors, excessive luxury !== followers, abject poverty.

I know your next excuse is that they're not the government. But for me, I feel that if you're a leader/mentor, and your average followers is way below your standard in lifestyle, then it's either you're deceiving them or they're deceiving themselves.

God didn't send them to feed people with food. If anyone needs food there is provision in the welfare department of the Church for that.

Silly people can't see the need to have something that helps you do more work. Instead they see it as a luxury. Do they sleep in their jets?

Nemesis08:
Which of these churches has members as the Roman catholic church?
Which of them is as wealthy as the catholic church? But how many catholic bishops owns a private jet? Even the pope travels on a public Al Italia plane crowded with journalists and others.

How many Catholic bishops hold crusades in different nations? How many Catholic bishops are fathers to millions of other church founders? How many Catholic bishops do evangelism? How many Catholic bishops receive invitations to come and preach in many nations of the world? How many Catholic bishops plant multiple churches every year? I still have more questions for you!

BeigJawnson:
Private boat or chariot? Hahahahaha I can't laugh. In other words, I can't equate our Lord Jesus Christ to ordinary men.

I earlier said it that our Lord has no home yet He wasn't poor... He had nothing to Himself yet poverty wasn't His...

Mind you a bible verse tells me that "My God shall supply all my needs according to His riches in glory. As for me, I no serve a poverty God.

Pastors can have private jets, after all they are general overseers and not a local assembly pastors... Sense for tell you that one. And these men of God started their ministries with humble beginnings...

If a local assembly pastor owns a private jet, it is questionable. Cos what does he need it for?

Do you know what they call general overseer of a church that has been existing for decades?

They own this private jets not for luxurious life style but not to be delayed at airport or missed a flight...

Do you know that not only Nigerian Pastors own private jets... American pastors too own private jet. I mean top pastors...
I await your reply on this.

Chai!

The first pastor to own a jet was Kenneth Copeland. It was a gift to him. Many pastors around the world own jets!

The jets Oyedepo uses are all gifts to him. You're very ignorant, yet you want to sit as the judge.

BadBradley:
You're deluded and the fact that you think your pastor is busier than any president makes you a very dangerous pefoan to God and men.

I won't call you a criminal but you're not shut of one. You're deluded, self-conceited oaf who thinks your pastor is actually important

You're the one deluded here.

The president of the UK sees his wife everyday. Has time for golf and other things. Mama Adeboye once said there are years she sees her husband only a few times.

Go and sit down. Deluded and ignorant fellow making judgement on things he knows nothing about. You're not short of a criminal. You're one!

miketayo:
Lay hands, so you can't pray for someone in another continent and God will hear you..
Silly excuses left and right

It's just because you are too ignorant and proud! You know nothing and yet your spewing gibberish.

So, even if he wants to ordain pastors, he'll ordain them through the air? He should not meet people physically because he has rejected jets? Silly!

Millions of people are waiting for him to minister to them all around the world. God has provided jets, he rejected them and gave excuses to the people that he couldn't come because what? How silly that sounds!

Paul didn't conduct impartation through letters. He traveled everywhere he had people who needed his presence. Infact he told the Romans:

Romans 1:12
"For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you—

He had to be there physically but time would not permit. He wrote his desire in letters and still promised to be there to do ministry in person.

You didn't see that it's silly to reject jets and start giving excuses for not being available for ministry in places where millions of people need them? How do you reason?

To minister to people through the air, and to fly there to minister to them in person, which one is more comfortable?

Think!

kpompey:
God or Oyedepo, who chose his successor, because he wanted to retain the control and wealth within his family

Even in scripture, the line of succession has been through children. It was the failure of Eli that made God reject his children. The children of Israel rejected the sons of Samuel. They were the ones who were to succeed Samuel.

The Lord Jesus had no physical children but had physical brothers. The eldest of his younger brothers succeeded Him and led the church even though he was a late comer into the faith. He was the one who even presided over the church conference and gave his ruling on a disputed matter in Acts 15.

Except you begat a wayward son, he's the rightful person to succeed you.

Richard succeeded Oral Roberts his father, Joel succeeded John Osteen his father. Kenneth Hagin too was succeeded by his son.