₦airaland Forum

Gbola5:
Daenerys was just being poetic. But the trueness of a dragon is in character not about being immune to fire. Dragons themselves can get burnt when they are still in the first few years, its when they grow older that they develop hard fire resistant outer shells, more so Targaryens can be killed by fire. I can make an exception for show Dany being immune to fire.

What i am trying to say is that we don't know (show only) if targs are immune.

All we know is that Dany is immune and viserys wasn't.

There is no reference or dialog to support any part of the argument (show only).

All we know is that she made a statement about a true dragon which you think was just poetry but i don't think she was being poetic.

I think true dragons are born every now and then just like how wargs are born every now and then.

Great episode.

Dorne was one of the best scenes this episode.

Jon Targaryen ralling the north against the ww.


Finally, love the look of disappointment on LF's.

oyetpel:
GoT doesn't care about anybody except whomever they want to build story on. Lady Olenna family is wiped out and she's feeling somehow chilling negotiating in Dorne. I also want to know the dragon or aeroplane that flew Varys soon after his meeting in Dorne to Mereen.

There is no aeroplane or dragon. This episode could have spanned 8 months or even a year. Everything in the episode didn't happen in a week. And also, the happenings might not be serial.

Gbola5:
I don't think she wants Westeros to be at her mercy.

The war is hers to lose. She has Dorne and Tyrrell backing her.

Gbola5:
We didn't need the show to confirm anything. It was always true. Targaryens aren't immune to fire.

I remember you saying exactly this about Dany. "Dany isn't immune to fire" ...."blood magic this and that".

We know, viserys wasn't, we know Dany is. But we don't know why she is (not enough evidence). We know that she claimed that viserys wasn't a true dragon because fire cannot kill a dragon.

Maybe Jon snow is a true dragon.

Maybe he isn't.

If according to the series, only true dragons are immune to the fire, then Targaryens (some or most) may be immune to fire depending on bow frequently "true dragons" are born.

kross101:
Great season finale tho I was rily hopin on seeing an Arya/jon/sansa reunion but it all gud. Well sadly we gonna wait a wyle to see the great war btw kings and Queens. I wander who d Lannisters wil form alliance with and if d imp wil watch his family slaughtered. Little Finger ehn, I tire 4 dt dude!

They are the only ones left. The lannister children

agrovick:
Obarra: We invited you to Dorne because we needed your help, you came to Dorne because you needed our help.
Olanna: What is your name again? Barbara?
Obarra: Obarra.
Olanna: Obarra, you look like an angry little boy, don't presume to tell me what I need.
2nd sister: Forgive my sister, what she lacks in diplomacy, she...
Olanna: Do shut up dear
*turns towards the 3rd sister
Olanna: Anything from you?
3rd sister tries to talk, Olanna interrupts
Olanna: No. Good, let the grown women speak.


ROTFL! Lady Olanna got no chill at all.

I died in this scene.

sagenrdy:
Winter is here. Queen dany queen cerci olenna Nawa Ooo D n D have finally bow down to feminism.

Again, this has nothing to do with feminism. The more you make statements like these, the more you take away from the true value of the movement.

Couldn't have said it better

UjSizzle:
Petyr Baelish is nobody's friend. He uses you and your use him to further ambition.

Seriously, he even used Catelyn stark. Someone he claimed he loved.

JonSnow:
really?

Are you saying it's impossible to survive a stampede?

ilynem:
A good tactician? Yes. A better tactician would stay in winterfell and let Jon and his army come to them. Jon didnt have the men nor the weapons for a siege.

How is that a better tactic to show people that you are great at war?

Read up the meaning of tactics.

A tactician is someone good at planning tactics: the specific means of accomplishing goals. A strategy is an overall plan for accomplishing something. Tactics are the steps taken to carry out the strategy. If someone is skilled at coming up with tactics, they are a tactician.

His goal was not just to win but to show the other houses that he was good at war. Der davos said this in that battle night meeting.

Gmajor:
Did you guys notice that Ramsey killed a lot of his men via arrows? Even if he won the battle of the bastards people wont be too willing to follow him to battle again

I doubt it was a decision he made on the spot. He would have discussed it with his fellow commanders or whatever they are called before carrying it out.

Gmajor:
nawa oh. You guys really suprise me with the way you reason. How can you say that she didnt care for her brother? She care for him but she was being realistic. She already made it clear that rickon had a better claim than her or jon, so ramsey would most probably kill him

Just for context, Jon cared more for his half bro than Sansa did for her blood bro

Gbola5:
Those aren't units, the whole cavalry charging doesn't make a unit. We don't enough of Ramsey's capabilities as a military man. All your assertions are on speculation. Also an absolute suprise force doesn't just show up, except in Hollywood.

What makes a unit then? A quick Google says a unit is a subdivision of a larger military force.

We don't know enough (i assume that's what you meant) of his military capabilities but we know enough of his tactical capabilities. Tactics are not used only in military you know.

And about military just showing up, it's just Hollywood like you said. It's for dramatic effect.

But just as a side note, army do just show up in battle.

Gbola5:
Pawns who don't need to be sacrificed ?

It doesn't matter if they NEED to be sacrificed. What matters is the he WANTED them sacrificed. If he didn't, he wouldn't have fired arrows at his own men.

Gbola5:
But its speculation on your part what Ramsey's battle plan was, or if they saw men digging trenches or not.
10/10 is perfection by the way.

It's hardly speculation because you can see him smile at every move team Jon made.

The boring episodes are needed for episodes like these. Every episode cannot be epic.

kenturkish:
In the context of the series, Ramsay is good @ what he does probably the best. But in really being a good battle commander and tactician it's a fail for me, going into a battle where you outnumber your opponents almost 3 to 1 and you end up killing more of your men than the said opponents is just sadistic. Even without wun wun, winterfell, Would still be breached because ramsay just didn't have the numbers to protect the castle against a siege. He played all his cards once and he paid dearly for it.

it.[/quote]His ego and nature cost him.

Nihilist:
Whether or not we saw the trenches are irrelevant. Jon said the night before that the trenches were being dug, so we know that they are there.

The trenches were supposed to be used as part of a tactic that was jettisoned as a result of Jons stupidity, so showing the trenches would have been superfluous to the battle scenes anyway.

Given the proximity of the battlefield to the castle, it's almost inconceivable that someone looking outside the window won't have seen a couple thousand men furiously digging trenches and planting stakes in the distance...hence the Bolton's theatrical and successful attempt to lure the Starks away from their defensive positions

Looking at that Battle in isolation, the Boltons were strategically and militarily the superior force, and were rightly in the ascendancy until....

The writers intervened.

All the inconsistencies you mentioned about the Knights of the Vale have nothing to do with Ramsay's lack of tactical acumen.

How can Ramsay see Vale men when even the Starks don't know that they are coming?

Ramsay who saw Jon Snow's men coming, went to meet them out in the field, and was accurately able to guess how many men they had will not see the Vale men coming because writers.

Thank you for this.

Gbola5:
Jon's battle plans never fleshed out There were no trenches in that scene. If we can agree that the Bolton's saw said trenches, meaning they had eyes on the outside, why didn't they know of the Vale Army somewhere off. They were at Moat Cailin, word would have gotten out of an army at Moat Cailin.

Jon's forces had the forest at their backs, they could have used that to an advantage. It was the same with the Stannis battle, the two forces just charged at each other. Armies had battle units which allowed them to respond to battle conditions. You can agreee with me that that was a slaughter After having a battle plan they just discard it. Ramsay sends his own cavalry of about equal forces and then sends arrows to take them out because, saddistic much ? He could have had his infantry formation on the frontlines to guard aginst the unprotected charging Stark cavalry, and then have his archers to the rear to strike them down, his other infantry could then melee with the rest of the Stark forces, he would save a deal lot of his men, atleast enough to counter the Arryn forces while they secured the castle. A good tactician would have at the back of his mind that an enemy force may be hidden in sight, and therefore would not risk his men. But they had to have that Hollywood save with the Knights of the Vale, because you know, convenient armies are convenient~ Reminds you of Helmsdeep, atleast they had the castle, they were just outnumbered. 3/10 for medeival battle.

Nothing went according to Jon snow 's plan because of his initial run to save Rickon. He would have died had davos not sent the cavalry after him. Ramsey's only mistake was not planning for a surprise army .
Look up the definition of tactician

kay9:
This is probably derailing, but get this: The Japs didn't have strength of numbers; Ramsay did. The Japs didn't have a solid fortress to relax behind and wait out the winter in comfort; Ramsay did. The Japs weren't better provisioned and equipped; Ramsay was. As for invading the West Coast of the U.S... that's just laughable. I'll rather suggest we leave out history and just keep to GoT.

GoT.[/quote]A good tactician is someone that makes something go according to his plan. Whether the plan is a good plan is irrelevant.

He made Jon snow do exactly what he wanted, that's what made him a good tactician. Now, whether what he wanted was right is irrelevant.

kay9:
This is probably derailing, but get this: The Japs didn't have strength of numbers; Ramsay did. The Japs didn't have a solid fortress to relax behind and wait out the winter in comfort; Ramsay did. The Japs weren't better provisioned and equipped; Ramsay was. As for invading the West Coast of the U.S... that's just laughable. I'll rather suggest we leave out history and just keep to GoT.

GoT.[/quote]A good tactician is someone that makes something go according to his plan. Whether the plan is a good plan is irrelevant.

He made Jon snow do exactly what he wanted, that's what made him a good tactician. Now, whether what he wanted was right is irrelevant.

Gbola5:
He would have won on numbers not because of being a tactician. You don't send cavalry against cavalry(a living horse will not charge) and then rain archers on them. Pikemen/Spearmen are best against cavalry and cavalry against infantry. They weren't even heavy cavalry.Those pikemen wouldn't have been able to surround them in a real scenario, as battles are fought in units, you dont all charge in at once, that's slaughter. Davos and the reserves could have stayed put, to hit them at their flanks. It seemed to me in this battle, regardless of the Rickon thing, that they always wanted Jon to be three steps behind Ramsey, trying to flesh out the whole 'You know nothing Jon Snow' when all his mistakes were just simply bad writing.

Haha. How i hate seeing this bad writing of a thing. Tell me how many wars you have fought?

The battle was fought in units.

First, Ramsey drew Jon snow out and when he was in the middle of the battle field, he sent his calvary after him. This forced jon snow 's forces to send their calvary too. Now, being in the middle of the park and within reach of Ramsay's archers, Ramsey slaughtered them by firing arrows (slaughtering his own men in the process but he didn't care). Meanwhile, Jon snow 's archers couldn't fire because they might end up killing the little men they have and instead, they attacked on foot. Ramsey surrounded what was left of the army and was about winning the war when the vale army appeared.

How wouldn't have been able to surround what was left of Jon snow 's army? When all the units have been depleted, what other unit do you want snow to use? Have you forgotten that this was not their original plan that it was Ramsey's genius that made th abandon their plan?

kenturkish:
Why I will not call Ramsay a tactician is simple, of all the battles he fought he always had the clear advantage, the odds will favor 6thousand men over 2 thousand plus any time any day. Ramsay had the clear advantage and yet he slaughtered almost half of his men to get to Jons 2thousand plus. That's not good tactics.

The battle went exactly according to his plan (apart fork the vale army). That is the definition of a good tactician.

Now, whether his plan was stupid is a different argument.

kay9:
I don't agree that Ramsay was a good tactician - slaughtering his men along with Jon Snow's was certainly not the best TACTICAL thing to do, remember he had the strength of numbers, plus a solid castle behind him. But I must admit that he holds the ace when it comes to "reading" people. He knew EXACTLY where to push Jon Snow in order to get him to attack first.

He doesn't care about his men. Remember he is a sadist. All he wanted was to win the war.

In chess, don't people sacrifice the pawns or whatever to win the game? That's exactly what he did.

Gbola5:
A good tactician would have known if an army was approaching him, incase they were hidden. You should always have outriders to not let your guard down. Ramsey was killing his own men as well as Jon's.

He didn't care that he was killing his own men, that's what he wanted. The battle panned out exactly the way he wanted until the vale army arrived.

He knew exactly what Jon will do and how to counteract him. Everything went exactly according to how he wanted it. That is the definition of a good tactician.

Gbola5:
That was some hell of luck. More like plot armour.

I don't think you know what plot armour is. That's how battles are fought and won. You hear soldiers say stuff like "he saved my life on the battle field" . Do they have plot Armour too or is there a real life equivalent of plot Armour?
Also, when he did the same thing to save some of the soldiers, do those soldiers have plot Armour too?

kenturkish:
Perhaps he is but it ended up costing him victory, like his father said only a foolish commander leaves the gates of his castle to go fight a battle, he is more of a sadist than a tactician, stannis barratheon was a tactician, Robb stark was a tactician. Ramsey is a devious sick fellow @ best. A tactician looks @ the bigger picture before engaging in any battle.

You don't get it.

A tactician is someone who is good at making plans in order to achieve particular goals.

Ramsey did exactly this.

He was just caught offguard by the vale army. For all we know, Jon snow cheated.

Yes, he killed a lot of his men, the thing is, he wanted that to happen.

djlaqua91:
I believe in Gender Equity not Gender Equality. It has everything to do with roles and duty. Sansa kept crying that they didn't ask her for her input, while at the same time denying them vital life-saving info cause of her ego. In life you take the initiative, must you wait for someone to ask you before you can contribute positively? She was involved in all battle meetings, rallying Northern houses yet she kept shut. If they didn't value her they wouldn't have involved her in the first place. Let's see LF plan for her now.

I don't think you know the difference between equality and equity. It's equality that they want. Give them equal opportunities and chances as you give men. Maybe you should read up on actual feminism because it's beyond the scope of this thread. Also, you can't use a work of fiction to judge if feminism is pointless.

Unfathomable:
...some of the men of the nights watch were him, and they were the first set with horses. phew!! this thread. The Wildlings and the Archers who I think are the Mormonts came later

I doubt a nights watch man was in the army. It would be a violation of their vow and also, the nights watch don't have enough men to let some of them die in a tiny battle

UjSizzle:
It's the book. But I don't think it was for vengeance though. I don't even recall sef, but I remember reading that Jon left Castle Black and had to be convinced to come back.

It happened in the show too

Endy10:
Na you wan kill the dragons abi?
Which men? Even if there are any, they are long dead and buried. Why didn't they kill Aegon's dragons when he first attacked.
3 dragons, the full dothraki herd, the second sons, and the unsullied. Tell me who could stop that force. From every corner you are attacked and you still want to kill dragons? Every kingdom she attacks will quickly bend the knee when they see the dragons, just like Brandon did. There is presently nobody that can stop Dany.

P.S the dragons have still not attained full maturity

How do you know and why do you assume this?