₦airaland Forum

Always a pleasure. but I'm stepping out for an hour or so. will be back soon.

All the above have what we have come to define as life.
So I can say that biological life evolves into awareness, and becomes intuitive and intelligent. Different animal species with different cranial sizes dispaly varying degrees of intelligence. Not so? Can one no tmake the case that intellegence, self-awareness and intuition evolved alongside with the size and complexity of brain?

Your argument is premised on the fact that self-awareness, intuition and intelligence is evidence and proof of intelligent design. I say ,no way.
If we can go back 4 billion yrs ago ,when there was no appearance of intelligence, self-awareness or intuition, when there were only single-celled micro-organisms, when the earth and perhaps our solar system were still chaotic and in a state of flux,could you make the same arguments then for intelligent design?

Later.

@Deepsight:
Correction. Yes I can divorce the notion of a universal mind as a precursor of existence from the religious notion of god.

N:B
Mind you also, the argument in this thread is not necessarity about an abstract universal mind but the notion of a religious god who has been given certain attributes. The many contradictory attributes of the religious god forms the basis of doubts and ultimately leads to an atheistic viewpoint.
An abstract universal mind would, logically, be impersonal. Religious theists make arguments for the existence a personal god that acts like a puppet master .

Deep Sight:
^

1. What does the quality of consciouness, sentience, self-awareness, mean to you?

2. Could you conceptually divorce the notion of a universal mind as a causative precursor for all existence from religious notions of God?

3. If you could divorce such, would you be inclined to accepting the existence of that precursor of existence?

What ever the quality of consciousness, self-awareness and sentience, it does not ,any way ,explain or prove the existence of god.
And yes , I can divorce the NOTION of a universal mind as a causative precursor of existence. Its a good and palatable notion , but the operative word her is NOTION. Its just a NOTION, Imagination or Fantasy.
To be honest, I ( without fear of contradiction), want to accept that notion. But my mind, as it is presently constituted, cannot stop there. To stop there requires an act of blind faith, which I find loathsome. Questions have to arise and investigated about such a universal mind. I cannot accept this uncaused cause anxiom.
So until we have some answers, the universal mind is just a good ,cozy NOTION.
Again, I don't believe that either religion , or philosophy can answer these questions. Only science can, in due time.

Same arguments all the time. Thiest make the following arguments very loudly.
a. That god exist
b. That he (why not she) is invisible,
c. His ways are a mystery to man
d. He does not have to be proven in any scientific or empirical way.

All thiest, except Neotic, believe that
e.God loves his all creation

f. God's love is manifest in the physical world or(depending on which sect) is personal and subjective.

A am correct? Pls exmine the above postulations one more time.If the above are correct, then WHY CANT THEISTS ACCEPT THE SIMPLE ADMISSION THAT GOD IS IN THEIR HEADS? Is it not so obvious? If god is subjective, does not not automatically mean that it is in the head of the believer?
That is all people like Dawkins is trying to SAY. How can you argue against him when all your beliefs about god seem to contradict themselves. I can confidently and boldly , as you do, make the same postulations about the Flying Spaghetti Monster(LOL). Can't I?

@Olaadegbu:
christianity is esoteric?. Since when? esoteric in what sense? hhhmmm.
What is esoteric abt a perfect diety who creates man, then finds fault in his creation, and then threatens to punish them forever for the very their inherent deficiencies he created,all just to show how much he loves them? What is esoteric about a custodial religion who's primary currencies are fear and blackmail? "The FEAR of god is the beggining of wisdom".
What is esoteric about fleecing vulnerable people of their resources in the name of god?.

Perhaps esoteric refers to the catholic priesthood, who despise female sexuallity, but have no problems defiling the bottoms of young boys.

@Toba:
You quote Jesus as having enjoined his disciples to be as wise as SERPENTS. Very interesting indeed.
Was it not the same serpent that supposedly gave Adam and Eve the fruit of knowledge? The same serpent that was cursed by god? The same serpent that Moses asked the Isrealites to look up to for healing when they were cursed by god? And yet the same serpent that has been villified by the judeo-christian religions? hhhmmm. And here Jesus asked his disciples to be as WISE as the SERPENT?
Another one of the many contradictions of the Christian faith.

What is this obsession with how a woman dresses? Who defines what is provocative? A few decades ago it was considered provocative for a woman to wear trousers and a few decades further it was provocative for a woman to wear skirts. Why does the male ego always have to blame the women for their weaknesses?
I really dont get it?

So god is conscience. interesting. hhhmmm.ok. Whether true or not, it makes more sense than the white bearded, yet invisible man in the sky. I agree that human beings are always in conflict with their conscience.
So do you worship and pray to your conscience?
In Ancient Egypt, it was called Maat, the god of truth.
Infact, the ten commandments, wriiten by moses,an Egyptian prince/Pharoah, are excerpts from an eqyptian text titled"Confessions to Maat" which predate moses by thousands of years.
examples from Confessions to Maat:


Not have I despised God.
I have not repulsed God in his manifestations.
Not have I spoken lies.
Not have I set my mouth in motion against any man.
Not have I defiled the wife of a man.
Not have I defiled the husband of a woman.
Not have I committed theft.
Not have I killed.
Not have I violated the times for the chosen offerings.

But where is this small voice when Josua is commanded to kill all that liveth in Jericho?
Where is this voice when pentecostal preachers sap the financial resources of their flock to live large?

@Toba;
My post was in reaction to yours.I expect a candid response to my post from you. You people are artful dodgers.

@Frosbel:
You are an artful dodger. I am yet to see you answer any questions on any thread. As a good(?)christian, Kindly respond to my last post.
Thank you.

diluminati:
Religion makes men Bitter, look at davidylan.
when you look at stalin and mao, their actions were spurred by religion. even Hitler, all their evil actions had religion as its root cause. You know that davidylan right?

Thats right. the head of the catholic church in Germany enjoined the people of Germany to listen and head the words of Hitler because Hitler reperesented the voice of God. This is history. There is no evidence whatsoever that Stalin and Mao were   inspired by any athiestic doctrines, because there are none.  
But look back at history. The slave merchants of europe and america(responsible for the deaths of 20million Africans), were they not all christians? The crusades, the inquisitions, the tortures, the burnings, the countless wars , Al queda, maitesine, Boko haram, Rev. Jim jones and the Guyana massacres ,the sexual abuse(violating the bottoms) of young innocent boys by godly catholic preists,and the list goes on. Are all these not inspired by religion?
Which athiest or athiest group has killed scores of innocent children by calling them witches?

Pure garbage.
Once an atheist and now a christian, So what? And the point of this is?
What about former christians who are now athiest?

Your personal opinions are more valuable in this forum than clippings from websites. On the internet, I could find a website to support and justify any position that I hold. So ,attaching clippings from a website to support your views or theories is not very smart, in my opinion.

As a christian and pastor, I think if you preach on this thread or forum, the gospel of love , tolerance, honesty and charity(by the way, what charities are you involved with?), all of us ,irrespective of our labels or isms,could find common ground to share our ideals, experiences and goals. Should that not be the christian ideal?
Or, is your obsession with athiesm rooted in the fear that athiesm is bad for the church business?
Since you are quite a reasonable fellow, I , for one, would  love to know whether your fixation with athiesm is just an academic exercise, or is rooted in some kind of personal fear.
Thank you.

Laugh laugh laugh.

Ha ha ha ha.
"A man convinced against his willis of the same opinion still"
Pointing out rationality and reason to these churchmen is like flogging a dead horse. Why waste your time giving them simple , well researched explanations to a common phenomena? They wont buy it. THEY NEED THE DEMONs. DEMONS are good for the Jesus business. Demons are the fuel that keeps them burning and waxing strong. Where would the church business be without demons? Without demons, What would they pre-occupy themselves with? Love? Tolerance? Kindness and empathy? Charity? NOOOOOO way. No profit in those.
The demon is the cash cow.
It is because of the ubiquitiy of the pentecostal carpetbaggers that we have demons lurking in every nook and cranny, especially in our higways, causing accidents and sucking the blood of the victims.(LOL).
It is also because of the pentecostal folks that we have child witches all over the land causing problems for their faithful and godly parents.

@OP; Thank your stars that you posted on this forum instead of running to your pastor first. They wold have prepared a special deliverance package for you. They would have dug a big pit for you from which you would have been at their mercy. The choice remains yours. Take the rational explanation or take the demonic angle. If you choose the demonic, then you definitely need special deliverance NOW .
N:B By the way, is there any record at all of anyone who has been killed , injured or maimed by this phenomenom or demons?

diluminati:
How can Religion divide man against man.

Religion makes all man unequal.

Convenant University in the name of religion shuts out Muslim students. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-771573.0.html

What a pity.

Thank you.
what else needs to be said?

It is our tradition in Nigeria to fear and demonise ideals and concepts that are above our limited and fogged out minds.
By emasculating religion, the freemasons are the architects and custodians of modern human society. They have given us universal freedoms,democracy, universal education and the fruits of scientific enquiries.
It is not surprising that the judeo -christian religions seeks to demonise freemasonry, having been castrated by the group. The grudge of the churchmen over freemasonry has nothing to do with good or evil, or occultism, as they would want their faithfuls to think. No . Its about power. The power to control the human mind and the path of civilization. The churchmen had their turn. They defined and rulled the world for nearly 1800yrs. 1800yrs of , chaos, ignorance, superstition and evil for mankind. The remants of their evil rule are still with us. We still have raging conflicts all over the world inspired, instigated and fueled by religious bigotry and hate.

Obviously , the work of the masons remains unfinished. That work is the gradual refinement of the human mind, and by extension, the human condition.

"The pre-eminence of any philosophical or religious system should be measured by the quality of its ouput and effect on the society"-Manly P. Hall. In that regard, christianity has failed woefully. Freemasonry, on the hand hand has given the world so much by moulding men who have enriched humankind with their knowledge , philosophies, inventions and ideals,
Can anyone point out any great achievement over the past 1800yrs that came out of a pulpit?

Well said.
Also, opinions are the most abundant commodity in the world because everybody has one.

tpia@:
^^
john 2:1


does the bridegroom also receive an invitation to his own wedding?

Curiously, the bible does not mention the names of the celebrants of the wedding. That is very uncharacteristic of the bible, wouldn't you say so? Also, why would the son of a lowly carpenter and is mother, along with his desciples, be invited to a society wedding as described in the bible? And also, being invitees, why would jesus's mother be very active in such a wedding, unless, she was just playing her natural role as the mother of the groom?

Thanks. I'm blushing.
I argue on the side of athiesm because it makes more sense than the theism. Since god, faith and life are mysteries, I prefer to approach them from positions of doubts while searching for certainty. I have been convinced by my fellow nairalander, Deepsight, that my viewpoints are mainly agnostic. I see no compelling evidence for the existence of god, but I cannot say with certainty, that god does not exist. God, infinite space and infinite time ,probably lie beyond the threshold of what our minds can comprehend. So I do agree, my leanings are strongly agnostic.
But whether athiest or agnostic, I strongly repudiate the Judeo-Christian concepts of divinity.
The oriental non-custodial religions like Buddhism offer broader and more sensible(In my opinion) understanding of the relationship between humankind and all that surounds us in the universe, both in the physical and spiritual realms.
I strongly belive that science and intellect is the BETTER arbiter of reality than religion and faith.

Well, the girl is just being shrew and honest. Look at at this way:The girl is now in the University. Her new friends are making big money doing runs. She is now in a bigger league and she has a new status to maintain as a Uni. big girl. So she is honestly asking her guy if he can keep up with her new status and spend as much on her as the sugar daddies. Simple

@Poster:
You are the one who has a problem . Why should she have to suffer for your problem?. It amazes me how we Nigerians always look for someone else to blame for our problems and weaknesses. This is beyond male chauvinism, this is outright stupidity. What about her rights? Unless your company has strict dress code,does she not have the right to dress as she pleases as a single lady? Your  are trying to make excuses for your own weeknesses and then use your position to oppress her. Pls tell me, If she was your superior, would you have any beef about her beauty and dress sense? I'm sure you would not. You are just a weak-minded control freak who is looking for a legitimate excuse to oppress another person.
True Manhood is about self control and discipline. The conquest of self is the greatest conquest of all.
If its too much for you, sacrifice your position and resign. DO NOT OPPRESS THIS LADY.

Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. The anointing in with oil at Bethany was the first phase of his traditonal marriage to magdalene and wedding at Cana ,where Jesus was said to have turned wine into water, was second and final phase of their traditional wedding. Read those passages carefully with your eyes open, then ask any person who understand Jewish culture to confirm. The editors of of the Bible , having crowned him son god, went ahead removed all references to his education, his sojourn to Egypt, India, and Tibete; all in an attempt to rob him of his mortality and give him a god-like stature.

It is human nature to label anything we dont understnad as witchcraft, ocultism, voodoo etc. What do thing your ting that your great grandfathers would call your mobile phone if you show them all the magical things it can do? Sorcery. White man's sorcery.

I am not insisting that is must be purposeless. No. I am just asking why PUROSE must be a precondition for anything to exist.

I do not deny intelligent design with absolute certainty. My position is that intelligent design does not address any fundamental questions in any real sense. That's why I think its a cop out.
Also, intelligent design is accepted from a purely human perspective. What we see as complex may turn out to be biological expressions of simple mathematical formulaes  embedded in laws of nature. Yo never take into consideration the effect of 4.7 billion years of ceaseless interactions and mutatons. Consigning it to an unknowable designer is lazy and is a negation of our responsibilty to seek and investigate.Its the same mindset that men or yesterday used to creat the thousands of deities worshipped throughout the ages.
I am more interested in probing intelligent design and the designer rather just accepting it as an article of faith.

@ Deepsight:
I prefer your eloquence than articles and definitions from wiki. My discourse is with you and not wiki.
Some insect species have lifespans of a few days and some microscopic organisms live just a few hrs. If these species could think,I' m quite sure they would see their lives as purposeful and grand. Is it not possible that our lives and indeed our universe, could just reperesent a microsecond in yet another endless cycle of a grander pursposeless universe driven on its own ,without a designer or purpose ?
Think about it.

You made it through medical school to become a doctor, I asume, because you were driven and sufficiently motivated to do what was required to become a medical doctor and not by the mechinations of any diety in heaven or here on earth. That rules applies to everyone, prayerful or not. This simple rule is true for every individual as well as for nations.

@Deepsight:
It is not enough for you to say that everythign has an origin. Ok. Everything started somewhere and somehow. That is not disputable( i hope i'm not cotradicting myself). But you cannot blame it on a first cause and then full stop. Its not enough. You have to define and give attributes to the first cause. If you feel or intuit the first cause, that is where it should stop. You cannot use it as a basis for a strong argument if  you cannot define it with attributes. Much of what you say reflect my own inner thoughts as well, but I put them in proper perspective because they are just thoughts. I cannot make a case for them.
This takes me back to what I always say: God resides  in the human mind

@ Deepsight:
Why would you not consider that in the beginning, mindless and purposeless energy could have just reached a saturation point and the big b.ang was triggered. For example,certain violatile chemicals bow up when they reach a certain temperature or atmospheric threshold.
Why must there be an outside intelligent first cause? do you think everything in the universe serves a purpose? Do you think that all the several billion different known species of plants and animals all serve a purpose for their existence, or could they have arisen by random(uncaused) genetic accidents?
When cosmic particles ceaselessly interact over tens of billions of years,can you imagine the billions of tiny changes and random arrangements that ensue? Over more time, such tiny changes may show a pattern that might, in our limited vision, seem like  design and purpose. What we see an purpose driven design might just be one of the billions of minute changes that occur in the grander scheme of cosmic interactions. Our limited lifespan and scope does not allow us to see the universe in its full form. Our sun takes 250 million yrs to achieve its orbit around our galaxy system. Can you imagine all the changes our solar system can go through in that period of time?
To say hold firm in the belief that design and purpose is inherent in the universe pre-supposes that  there is uniformity in the universe, and ignores the obvious fact that the universe is actually choatic, just as it should.It is the inherent purposeless chaos that gives rise the  complexity and diversity of both the universe and to life on earth as we know it. What we see as symmetry and order might just be sensory illusons. How do you explain the fact that one of the moons of mars orbits in retrograde orbit, against what is normaly obtained with other moons? is there a purpose and design for that anomaly?

One can postulate or theorize that the universe has a design, designer and a purpose. That is normal.But to hold that view with the certainty that you do,is , in my view, dogmatic indeed.

The idea that if something exists, it must have a purpose and a designer is old  stale.
For example, a thunderstorm can start a whole chain of events that might at the end , seem purposeful by either an angry diety or a benevolent diety depending on its short and long term effects. Now, does a thunderstorm have to be ignited by an intelligent being?

Congratulations.
DID you go to medical school or not to become a medical doctor?. Would someone who did not pray not be able to become a doctor in 10yrs just like you?. That is the real question. The psychological benefits of prayer may have given you strenght against odds, as it does to most people.
If you had decided to drink, party and hobnob with university cultist, I dont think you have made it through medical school no matter how fervent your prayers.

@Deepsight:
I always enjoy reading your posts.
I have noticed that you seem to have an almost dogmatic posture on this issue of first cause and uncaused cause. As I reminded you recently, its just a fancy word one may wish to use to justify an unexplainable subject. When asked what would have been the cause of the first cause, you replied that it is the uncaused cause, with absolute certainty. Doesnt mean anything. You are sounding like churchmen.
Also, by clinging tightly to this first cause, you are asuming to be speaking from the position of absolute knowledge. Not so?
Dont forget that, so far, we know very very little of how the universe really works. We know that the universe is still expanding.How is that?
Its either the first cause is still creating or  nothings are still being turned into somethings through mysteries we dont yet understand.
Scientific knowledge has advanced even much further in the area of astro physics than most of we ordinary folks could ever imagine.
From what I  have gathered so far, I can postulate that ,in time to come, 100yrs,200yrs or even 500yrs , we would have known enough about the other laws of the universe, changed our understanding of the broader laws of physics that would allow us to manipulate matter, space, and time as it suites us. In the contemplated eventuality, it just might be possible to create something from nothing or at least demostrate how something can be created from nothing.
It may sound very far-fetched, but your mind would boggle if you consider some of  the theories being postulated and investigated. The universe might be far far different from our current understanding.

13 yrs? Oh me gosh!
You have made my argument for me. Need I say more on this subject?

@seyibrown:
You waited 1 year to get your prayers answered? That is laughable. I  could have done better playing kalukalu. I would have had a better chance of having my desires fullfilled in that same time. Why wont you just say that it took 1 yr for the odds to work in your favour regarding whatever it was you were yearning for.? Someone else ,who may have had the same desire as you did, would have equally had the same chances of fullfilment without recourse to prayer. Do you agree?

From what most of the faithful have posted so far, one discernable fact is very clear: THERE IS NO CLEAR CUT FORMULA for having our prayers answered. Right? That is why we have ordinary prayers ,and special prayers, night vigils, fasting, seed sowing(LOL), etc. All vain and futile attempts to circumvent the immutable laws of cause and effect.
Even for the most devout,  just try your luck and keep trying. If something good happens to you in the interim, then "Hurray", you give  god the credit.

God does not answer any prayers. If so, for all our prayers,don't you think that Nigeria would be a paradise for every faithful by now? If god answers prayers, who deserves to starve, suffer illness, and death? All the unpraying athiest should have all suffered misfortunes and died off long ago. Our hospitals should be filled with the unfaithfuls. Not so?

Out of habit, we just give god credit for whatever good things that happen in our lives , and conveniently, we have the poor devil to blame for all our woes.
I have no doubts though, that prayers have many psychological benefits for those that do it.
However, the root of all human suffering lies in the agony of unfullfilled desires.