₦airaland Forum

Joebie:
hahaha.. very good question.

Modified
goldfish80 consider the bolded. If you still don't get it that what we have is a Nigerian problem, you MAY never get it.

The solution is to run away from the responsibilities and leave them for our great grand children to fix?
The Nff should be relocated to Europe so we can convince players of Nigerian decent. I already gave you this solution.

Joebie:
@bolded. Shows you are still not getting the point, or you are trying to distract from the original argument. You are making an argument as if someone ever said that it is causative.

If you still don't understand that what we have going on in our football administration is actually a Nigerian problem, then it's either you are deceiving yourself or you are simply just out of touch.

How does the Spanish government's tax free grant to LA liga clubs help the development of Spanish players?
I want to get first hand information from the well in touch Joebie.
I'm all ears please.

Joebie:
Well, but you are repeating the points i've already made. In the process, you just reiterate, and say nothing new.

Let me help you.
Just an analogy: Smoking and Drinking as bad habits

Does it follow that a smoker is always a drinker as well? No.
But consider this scenario. A man who is a smoker who happens to be a drinker as well, decides to stop smoking.
After several attempts, he finally overcame his tobacco addiction after 12 months.
My question: What are the chances that he will as well overcome alcoholism?

You see, these habits are correlated. How we handle affairs as a people. The systems we use, and our culture of doing things for that matter will determine many of our affairs.

READ ON
Let me take you on one of your examples -- Spain. How do you choose to measure the rise of their football? Let me restrict this to the club level, because we are talking league development.

Is it a coincidence that between 2012 and now Spain was represented 6 times out of a possible 8 as UEFA Champions league finalists?

3 SOURCES for you as regards SPAIN. When you are done, ask yourself if football and the economy are ENTIRELY independent of each other.

1. A 2012 report on LaLiga club challenges:
Gay, who has produced several studies on Spanish clubs' sorry finances, estimates their debt at 6 billion euros ($7.4 billion).

"The 20 teams in La Liga, the elite first division that includes powerhouses Barcelona and Real Madrid, owe more than half that amount. Gay believes at least 10 teams are at risk of going under. Several are already under bankruptcy protection.

The government says teams in the top two divisions owed 752 million euros ($921 million) in unpaid taxes alone last spring, on top of around 600 million euros ($735 million) in missed contributions to the social security system.

The authorities have long tolerated clubs' traditionally loose finances because of the prestige and popularity they bring to a country where passion for the game runs deep.

That is changing. With finances squeezed by the euro zone debt crisis, the government is slashing spending on hospitals, schools and public-sector jobs, and Spaniards are starting to ask whether football clubs should be able to continue to enjoy their free ride."
https://www.pri.org/stories/2012-07-11/spains-iconic-la-liga-soccer-teams-face-high-debt-and-unpaid-taxes

2. Next ,on Spain's economic reforms in 2012:

" What has been done?
Unlike some of its peers, Spain got stuck into labour market reforms in 2012. These now appear to be paying dividends.
Spain's unemployment rate has dropped like a stone as a result. However, it still remains high as the second highest in the euro area at 23.8pc in the first quarter.
Holger Sandte, of Nordea, said: "The reforms done in the economy begin to be visible in Spain, such as the tax reform that came into force in the beginning of the year."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11574536/How-Spain-became-the-Wests-superstar-economy.html

3. Next, the picture BELOW a snapshot of Spain's economy since 2012:
source: https://www.focus-economics.com/countries/spain


My friend, these two things are not entirely independent as you would like to think. Just as the La Liga can impact the Spanish economy. Economic reforms can also impact the La Liga. The impact may not be immediate, but on the long run a predictable trend can be observed. Still, I maintain they are correlated, although independent to some extent.

I want to learn from you, if I must continue.

The Spanish clubs were giving tax rebate when the country experienced a downturn economically. Not because they fear Spanish players won't make the grade rather they didn't want to loose the competitive edge and purchasing power to the Epl and other leagues.

Simply put, if the club's weren't operating at a tax heaven, couple with the economic downturn experienced at the time, top La liga players will be lost to more buoyant leagues and néw stars won't be attracted to come on board because the clubs lack the purchasing power.

The policy had nothing to do with the development of Spanish footballers.

Mujtahida:
Your problem is not fb players, playing for us but the suggestion that we have an institutionalised mode of engagement.
Pray tell me how formalising the mode of approaching fb players affects the development of our league or will be at the expense of our local league. Is this not a lazy man's excuse? Just like saying having embassies abroad will prevent building of government houses in Nigeria. Imagine how ridiculous a man would look if we want to establish diplomatic relations with another country and he begins to cry 'hooooo hoooo we cannot do this ooo. It will affect our domestic relations'.

If your league was developed prior to now and having fb players began to affect it then I'd see your points. But your league has been floundering for years. Having modes of engagement with fb players has no relationship with developing your league. Just stick with the fact that you don't like us 'begging'. I will understand.

You have been claiming with certain degree of certainty that our home grown players aren't good enough.
You have even gone out of your way to say the locally developed talents y who left Nigeria for Europe are imported when they come back to play for the Super Eagles.

Going by your posts on this topic, it is very clear to even the daftest person to see that if you were in charge of recruitment and scouting, you will have no buisness looking at the home grown players.
It is very obvious you will neglect the talents at home in pursuit of foreign born players because the oyibo man have done your homework and heavy lifting for you.

Why is it that black men cannot think of developing their own?

Mujtahida:
When you use your home based players for Afcon qualifiers and the tournament proper is when I will see reason in the points you are making. Until then we will 'beg'(that's your word, not mine cos I don't see how telling players of Nigerian descent to play for Nigeria amounts to begging).
The use of the word' begging' is a blackmail tool. It won't work with me. England 'begged' Iwobi even when he was at the Airport. Didn't take away anything from the dignity of England as a nation. Nations routinely go out for the best outside their shores. Sometimes ago thesupernerd posted comments from an English blog and we all laughed at how jittery England were at the prospects of losing Tammy. You call it begging. I call it desire to have the best.

Sir, Our sense of Nigerian pride is too fragile, too sensitive because it has no depth. All I know is that we simply cannot - and no reasonable Nigerian will- ignore quality players of Nigerian descent just because we are afraid of our national pride being hurt. Whether they accept us or not, we still talk about them. Count how many we have in our team today and Dessers, Vinicus, Onyedinma, etc are still in the reckoning. This is the season-we will gain some, we will lose some. If need be let us stoop to conquer.

Just two weeks ago, Anthony Joshua a British boxer fought Takam. Lai Muhammad, the Minister of Sports was there. Why? What business did they have being there. Didn't we shun Joshua when he 'begged'(truly the use of this word in this whole discussion is meaningless)to represent us? it's just because it's boxing and it's rules, if not I am sure we would have been like :AJ, how far na? Can you still represent us?
Success has many children jare.

England signed Iwobi's clearance papers before he represented Nigeria. They could have rolled out the red carpet for him if they really wanted before signing his clearance, a process which took months.

The word begging is not rethoric or out of place in Tammy's case. You heard from the horses mouth that Nigeria rolled out the red carpet for him (he could have been offered an oil well, only him knew what he meant)

I don't actually have a problem with having a diaspora born to represent us, what I have a problem with is institutionalizing such an idea at the expense of local development.

You don't place the cart before the horse, my friend.

Joebie:
You keep missing the point. Because you don't read my entire comment. You just pick a line and run away with it. I'm not learning anything new by engaging you. It's no use

I try to identify the anchor point of your argument and clear it up. Every other point fall into place like dominos.

Joebie:
you are a joke.. can we have your suggestion? something fresh please

Fresh ideas? Why don't we relocate the Nff glasshouse to Europe. It will be easier to engage the diaspora born players if we operated the football house from Europe, after all the local talents are useless. I mean, our football destiny is tied to the economy and technical know how of the country.
How about that for an idea?

Joebie:
They are correlated still.
They've had a strong football development structure for donkey years. And their economy have been growing. You can't expect a sudden downward trend in their economy to just reflect in their football right away. It's not causative, it's correlated.

The way we handle football which we have focused on over the years, to the detriment of other sports, is a reflection of how we do things.
Don't expect that we would have done well with our economy with its relative complexity.

Brazil had a thriving economy for years. They are part of the BRIC countries. Brazil didn't find themselves in this economic group that made up the BRIC countries by chance or without strategic planning which took years to harness by Lula da Silva.

If their economy could take a hit, then their football should have taken a hit too, since you're trying so hard to link the two.

Mujtahida:
Okay I agree because ever since I began discussing with you our thriving entertainment industry has been sticking it's head up to me but the reality today is that we have a large pool of talented players we cannot afford to ignore notwithstanding the fact that some will ignore us and that does not stop us from developing our league if we really do want to do so. The point you should note is that our league was vibrant at a point but it has gone down now. We should pull it up.

Having a good national team is a derivative of having a good league but it should not the reason for developing the local league. Develop the league for its own sake. If having a good national team is the reason for having a good league then England would have scrapped the EPL. What I am saying is that the National team is just a small island in the vast landscape of the football league. How many times in a year do national teams play? So getting foreign born players to play for us has little to do with developing the league. If we want to develop it we would, if we don't want, we won't. It is not Leon Balogun that is preventing the setting up of good league structures.

Having a good setup at home will save you the stress of begging people who aren't interested in representing Nigeria.
In a space of one month, 2 players turned down the chance to play for Nigeria after we rolled out the red carpet.

Have we become a country with no dignity and desperate to the extent that you still suggest we persist and set up shop to cajole these individuals to come play for us.

If we cannot invest at home and produce good players to represent us then we might as well stop playing football. It doesn't make sense to continue with the sport.

Joebie:
So their football industry should just go downhill just because they are having some challenges economically? Did you do statistics in school?

Correlation does not automatically mean that the change in one variable is the cause of the change in the values of the other variable. Causation, however, indicates that one event is the result of the occurrence of the other event.

You are missing the point.

If their football isn't going downhill just like their economy, then it is safe to say football is independent of the economy which was my point in the first place.

Mujtahida:
Sir, this is the blind spot in your argument. You fail to recognise the evolution of the sport. Football has evolved from a mere sport to a socio - economic endeavour with its own unique business ecosystem which has organic ties with every other national socio-economic endeavour. Football is economy, it's business, it's money. Ask the Brits what the EPL means to their economy.




I regard foreign based players as imports unless you can make use of our home based players for competitions like the World Cup. There's an evolution in the game you are not tracking: first our teams used to be wholly home based players(70's - mid 80's), next a mix of homebased and foreign based( late 80's -mid 2000's) next wholly foreign based (2010-2014 bar Keshi's 2013 experiment) next foreign based with a mixture of Naija born and foreign born players of Nigerian descent (2014-present). Who knows maybe one day our team will be wholly foreign born players (na joke oo).



I agree totally. There's abundant talent in Nigeria not just in football but across all sectors even in science and technology. The numbers in science and technology might not be much but they are there. The question remains: What have we done with our talents? Remove Europe from the equation and tell me what we have done with the talents at our disposal.

First of all, football is a talent based industry. Just like our booming entertainment industry, football can rise above the thriving mediocrity in all sectors of the economy.

Statistically, Spain have one of the highest unemployment rates in Europe yet their football industry is vibrant.

How about Brazil? Even with the downturn in their economy, protests, street fights and biting economic realities facing the country in recent times, yet their football industry is thriving!

Do you know how many Brazilians who lost their lives in January while protesting when Jesus transfered to Man city in January?

Joebie:
I'm bewildered how you came up with that from my write-up.

It was easy. Atleast from your suggestion, it appeared you wanted to lead a team of fans who will picket the glass house, armed with a list of foreign born footballers who should be contacted early.

Joebie:
There are potentials everywhere. Where there is no system, you go to the streets to find them. You can keep promoting backwardness if you want. Potential is only a thing -- innate, Just as resources is only a thing -- found underneath. But what do you do from there? Keep these talents in the Nigerian system and you will see what will become of these potentials.
You can't separate socio-economic strength as you call it from football. You doubt me? Look at the forerunners in sports for that matter. Compare it to their economies, you will see a correlation. For one thing I know that some people will travel but they will still not learn much. I have seen that type.

Modified
Football is our number one sport. And if we still can't get it right in football, that tells you something about our socio-economic strength.

Your solution to tap into the rich potentials is to set up shop in Europe where foreign born players are begged and cajoled to come play for Nigeria.
Clap for yourself.

Mujtahida:
Did you really just use that analogy in your first paragraph? Please go and ask Mikel, Kanu, Jay Jay who moulded them footballwise. Your analogy is imperfect. What you sent to America is not caftan. It was material you sent to America. You know how I know? Why don't you use the kaftans you have at home whenever you are going for a party? You don't because they are simply not good enough. I have no illusions. Nigeria is a country of great potential. Potential. That's what it is. In actuality, we not there yet.
This is where I'd embrace the second limb of your posts. But I will still reiterate my earlier point: What happens to your hospitals, what happens to your schools? What happens to your roads? Do your Engineers build your bridges or make your cars? Football is not the ultimate. We must aim to develop every part of our society.

Mikel, Kanu and Okocha went through the paces here.
If they were some shiit footballers with nothing to offer, no European club will touch them with a 40ft pole to start with.

Joebie:
People call systems "rolling carpet"
Do the Americans etc roll carpets for talented Nigerians to go over there and improve their skill/knowlege so they can add to that economy?
Did the Greek Basketball Association roll carpets to capture players in diaspora (referring to those Nigerian-decent basketballers in the US)?

My friend, your suggestion is not a suggestion. It is known. It seen by all. Fine, it's okay to copy and paste, but you and I know that it is a pipe dream. Everyone knows that we need a well structured league in Nigeria. But my position is having a system for players in diaspora to identify with us early does not scuttle our development plans, should we have one. Apples and Oranges. We don't even have one in the first place. Will we ever get it right here?
If we have to wait for utterances of 19 year olds to be reminded that we need to develop our own, then we are not true to ourselves. In fact, we are not serious. The consciousness to develop things in Nigeria for Nigerians should be ever-present to start with.
Are we babies. Nigeria is 57 years and we have to be reminded to develop our own thing? The 20 year old boy is just making choices and living his own life. PLEASE

You're still on this Antetokumpo case? Not even after showing you clearly that this guy started playing for Greek U19's when he was playing in the Greek 2nd division?
Do you watch Greek A2 basketball? Name one team you know in the Greek 2nd div basketball league.

It takes a lot of hard work to develop from home. The easy way out will be to ambush diaspora born who are on the verge of signing professional contracts, when we return with our tails behind like in the cases of Owomoyela, Nedum, Aogo and lately Tammy, we will be back here suggesting how to open shops to get these individuals to commit early before their adopted countries invite them.

I'm quite disappointed having this sort of conversation to be honest.

Mujtahida:
Sir, when you admit that we are lazy and cowardly when we go abroad to import cars, planes etc is when I'd know you are sincere.

Let me address the word 'begging' that has gained currency on this thread lately. The use of that word is a ruse to deceive those who have illusions and want to comfortably loll in it. I will burst all the illusions. I hear laughter, I hear some snigger and say we are begging and they mock the country. Ohhh my God. So you guys are just waking up to the fact that we are a 'beggarly' nation? We beg for cars, for planes, we beg for quality medical treatment, we beg for arms, we beg whenever we want to carry out major construction works. There you have it guys. Your thin pride is hurt by what you consider as Pinnick 'begging', was your pride hurt when Jonathan who was in kilter when America refused him arms? was your pride hurt at Buhari who spent three months abroad for medical treatment as well every other person that has sought for medical treatment abroad(Dame Jonathan, Stella Obasanjo)?. Is your pride hurt when you communicate in English?

But I don't see my country as one that begs. No. I see a country in need. A broken country. Joebie has tried to make us see that this is what we are as a people but No! Like spoilt children we don't want to see ourselves. If we want to talk about home grown solutions to our problems, let's talk about it but let none say we begged unless such a person is ready to factor in the other thousand and one ways in which we beg in our national life. I have never blamed Pinnick since this Tammy saga and I never will. He recognised a need and tried to get solutions for it. He failed. We move on.

Comparing the socio-economic strength of Nigeria with football is like apples and oranges. They are not the same thing.

Science and technology is not one of our strengths as a country. It makes sense to import warships,gun boats, fighter jets and armored tanks. Although one can ask questions why some inventions made by the Biafrans during the war was not tapped into by succeeding governments (story for another day).

When it comes to football, we cannot say we lack the talents so much that we should start importing footballers just like we import warships. This is ridiculous.


Read what a foreigner said about talents in Nigeria

” I can’t seem to understand the rave behind Karamoko Dembele by the world, especially Nigerians. I have seen a lot of his type on the street in Nigeria, so kill the hype” He told Owngoalnigeria.com.

” He is good no doubt, but like I told a friend of mine, in Nigeria on the streets on bad playing pitches, not the type Dembele enjoys in Scotland, they are better players in Lagos, Abuja, Porthacourt, Warri, Kaduna, Kano etc.

” I challenge anybody who doubts me to follow me to Nigeria. Look my friend, I have spent time in the country and in Europe, so I know what am saying. They are millions of Dembele on the street in Nigeria, playing football with no boots or facility but yet doing well”.

A foreigner believes Nigeria have this many un tapped talents.
Take a moment and let that sink in.

komekn:
In 2013 John Fashanu brought a team of U18 players from Nigeria. Who were called the Nigeria all stars seemingly selected from a national competition from across Nigeria. At least that's how it was marketed here. I don't if anybody knows about this.

They were set up to play Manchester United and City thier U18 teams. There was great anticipation.

As a warm up game two private football academies based in the NW England were merged to play against the highly esteemed Nigeria all stars.

There were a lot of club scouts including the head of recruitment at Fulham who were in the EPL at the time.

They played the game expecting to be beaten but would try to keep the scoreline respectable. In the end they beat the Nigeria all stars 8-1. Only one player was selected to go on trial at Fulham. He was a English born Nigerian striker.

There is no EPL academy in the UK that doesn't have Nigerian origin players. When you go to the London city Region that number becomes double % figures.

Do you really think there are not quite a few other Tega's in the system. There are but our NFF esteemed scouting crew do not want to work and do thier job properly. Waiting for the English FA to identify players for Nigeria. Then we try to reap where we did not sow.

Dele Alli and Seyi Ojo were in lowly MK dons but propelled with rapid speed to the EPL.

Where was the esteemed faceless unquestionable scouting crew.

How much better for Nigeria and to the shame of the English FA as well as giving them a bloody nose. By picking and selecting a players before them.

All this talk if Tega played for Nigeria he would be given far more opportunity and longevity is assumption.

How much Fair-Play, longevity, honour and respect were given to Hope Akpan, Sone Aluko, Victor Anichebe. Our history of treatment to Nigerian origin players in England is far from exemplary.

It was Berti Vogts thar gave Danny Shittu the chance to play for Nigeria not the NFF. Outside of Yobo from the millennium in my opinion the best Nigerian center back of that era.

I know nothing about the so called all star team, ambassador took to the UK. But it will be a huge mistake to gauge the level of the "all star team" by just one game.

Have you considered the small issue if acclimatisation? Those boys were first time travellers outside Nigeria, it will be too much to expect they would be at their best ahead of such an exhibition game.

If you bring those English boys down to Kano or Kaduna, do you think they will escape without conceeding double figures?

If those English lads met this same Nigerians in FIFA U17 championship, who will your money be on to win?

Joebie:
I had said I would break it down. What you should have done was ask me questions as regards the area you are not clear. because this your response is actually a scatter gun approach.
I never said we should go scouting them in their schools. And in having a system there should already be a structured league. Have I said anything contrary to that. We have a system were if I as you or safarigirl to name the top 5 Nigerian under 17 talents playing domestically, we simply cant. But we always do is wait for validation from oyibos. fourfourtwo is currently compiling a list of top 100 teens, and I have already counted Tomori, and Ejaria in that list. We can't do the same here because were are not even organized in the home front. yet someone is saying we have talents in Nigeria. If I ask you to fish them out won't you grow gray hairs.
Now, back to the system I was proposing, I had said in their "early teens" (as regards those in diaspora). How do we do that? so what you do is ask what i meant before you shoot down the idea.
Let me ask you. Do we have a diaspora bill? The last time I heard it was passing through reading in the senate or whatever. Will it see the light of day? My friend through our embassies abroad, there should be a special unit. There should be arrangement on ground so that parents of these kids can tap into it early. The laws should be there. The process should be there. And the information should be readily available.
I have more to say. But I'm waiting for you to do the right thing. Which is ask before you start shooting your machine gun.

I stopped reading when I read the lines (if asked to scout for talents I will grow grey hairs)
Maybe you don't know, the likes of Emmanuel Babayaro and various agents from South America and Europe are making a fortune by scouting for talents and exporting them to Europe and Asia.

If Emmanuel Babayaro had this same mindset like you do, he will probably be on nairaland front page begging for money to pay for his medical bills.

So you think Kanu Nwankwo will be willing to fund a football academy if he thinks there's a dearth of talents in Owerri?

I want you to understand something very clearly, in every street in Nigeria, you will find atleast one exceptionally gifted player.

If you're looking for already made players in Nigeria, I'm sorry, you won't find them. But if you're looking for talents or potentials them full brekete.

Mujtahida:
Your position is lucidly stated. But you fail to realise that in a certain sense all our players are foreign imports. All of them. Not only the FB players but the Nigerian born players- all of them are foreign imports. So if we'd go by your position what it means is that we develop our league to the point where all or majority of the players in our national team are home based players.

So while it might look like it's popular to say 'we are not going to beg any FB player', remember that we are in a certain sense 'begging' our naija born foreign based players(if you doubt that we are not begging please let's take our local league players to the world cup).

So let's get things clear: Either we develop our league or we continue to 'beg'(as in depend) foreign based players whether foreign born or naija born. That's how it should be properly stated. Not that you'd say go cap in hand to beg small boys to play for us specifically meaning foreign born players when you also' beg' naija born players based abroad for without them your team is dead.

Let em use an analogy to correct your first paragraph.
If an Aba tailor made a caftan for a client in USA and that same client wore the caftan back to Nigeria. Will you say that caftan was made in USA?

We aren't importing players, rather we are exporting players when these players come back and play for us, we are not importing them so to speak.

I know the reason why alot of people freak out when I talk about home grown is because of the fear that they may not get to see Nigerian players in Epl and Champions league because they will all be playing in the NPFL (anyone who says otherwise is lying to himself... Lol)

Look, that idea is very far from what I'm proposing.

When I talk about home grown, I am talking about a proper development channel where talented kids are captured and nurtured. Like we have special science schools, grammar schools, technical colleges and other specialized schools. We could also have football or sports schools.
They are currently doing this in India(I got to know about this when I handled a project for an Indian guy). In the near future India will be a force to reckon with at the Olympics like China and USA.

If we can have this sort of programme running in the country and a solid league system which will absorb these players. The result will be an unprecedented number of Nigerian Sports men going directly from Nigeria to top football clubs in the world.

There won't be a need to roll red carpets for anyone again. The reverse will be the case.

It is very cowardly and lazy to set up shop in Europe and hunt for Nigerian born individuals to roll red carpets when we have millions of untapped talents back home.

Joebie:
yes what we have here is #TeamProForeign, #TeamHomegrown, and #TeamPerformance.
I belong to the latter. If you identify a NIGERIAN that is really good, then make the "approach". But how do you approach? We need to take a long term approach towards solving everything for that matter in Nigeria. I've given my suggestion as regards approaching those players in diaspora, else we will miss out on some special players in future. The Omidiji example should never be a standard. We should stop being lazy. If we must fix things domestically, we would still need working systems. And you don't find working systems overnight.

Modified
And #TeamAntiForeign, who are the team version of racists, tribalists etc

How feasible are these solution of yours? From what I've read so far, you're proffering a scatter gun approach not a well structured plan.

How do you identify a really good player? Is it when such an individual is playing in his father's garage? You can only identify a good player if he's playing organised football!

What is organised football? Organised football is a league structured football.

Now, the exceptional players have already started playing for their adopted countries before they sign their first professional contracts.

I ask, do you want the Nff go hunting in London high schools to scout for Nigerians who have soccer potentials? This is the only way you can beat their adopted countries from getting them first.

This is not a solution. I haven't heard about any country in the world whose standard practice is to scout for players with this begging approach. Are we that desperate? Are these guys worth all the headache? How many championships have they won for their adopted countries?

Scouting for talents abroad is not the solution to the problem of Nigerian football. Brazil have the highest number of players playing for other countries, yet they still manage to be a force in football and always make the world cup finals.

For every Diego Costa or Thiago Motta they have tens of worthy replacements. This is the position I would like Nigeria to attain, not going cap in hands to beg small boys to come play for us.

Joebie:
lol

Dude had a choice and he made his choice. He was saying things simply as it was, until the NFF/Pinnick comes out to say the did not actually "roll out the carpet" on him.
Nigeria giant of Africa? Why do we like to deceive ourselves??
If his mind was set on England. So be it.

Next time we (Pinnick) need to be smart about our approach and what we say to the media. calling a spade a spade.

Modified
I posted this same story yesterday. Paste the entire statement from Tammy

I didn't know the interview was already posted on the thread.

By the way, Nigeria is the gaint of Africa. Maybe sleeping giant but still a gaint, no deception in that.

Tammy by his actions have made it even more difficult for the Nff to approach some of the diaspora born players. The Pinick regime cannot have eggs thrown at their faces like this again,hence there must be a certain level of commitment from the players themselves before being contacted by the FA abinitio.

Tammy Abraham: 'I turned down Nigeria in hope of England call'

Swansea City loanee Tammy Abraham has admitted that he turned down Nigeria in order to pursue an international career with
England .
The Chelsea striker, who is currently on loan at the Liberty Stadium, recently earned his first call-up to the England squad under
Gareth Southgate and has since admitted that he rejected overtures from his parents' country of birth in hope of representing the Three Lions at senior level.
"They [Nigeria] did try to roll out the red carpet and it was flattering but I was pretty set on England," said Abraham, according to the Express .
"I see myself as being a long-term England player. That is where my main focus is and I am 100 per cent focused on trying to get into that team."
Abraham could potentially feature for England over the next week, as Southgate's men take on both Germany and Brazil in friendly preparations for next year's World Cup in Russia.
https://amp.sportsmole.co.uk/football/nigeria/news/abraham-i-turned-down-nigeria_311297.html

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
The bolded made me chuckle. A so called giant of Africa belittled by a small boy. Yet people want us to go cap in hands to beg individuals like this to come play for us. When there's no apparent talent drain back home. Lol

Mujtahida:
I just wanted to know the reason why they choose to play for Greece over Nigeria. I am not blaming Nigeria. I am only saying it would be great if we adopted a more forward approach and that to adopt a strategy of saying they must declare first for us before we invite them is being unrealistic if we chose that as our ONLY strategy.

And do you know that I mentioned Atetokuonmpo just as a background to the main point I wanted to make namely that they are parents with kids all over the world looking for ways through which their kids can represent Nigeria and I feel that engagement and contact with them can solve that problem.
Are you happy with what we are doing with fifteen year old Omadiji? He's just fifteen years old, NFF sends him happy birthday wishes. Do they do that to every kid? No! But we appreciate what they are doing. They are saying we care, we want to be part of your world. That's not begging. That's engagement, that's building relationship.

We cannot pursue every kid. Let's pursue the talented ones early and even at that we will lose some, and win some. We have played and lost many football matches, important ones too but we've not stopped playing football altogether. So for all those who we approached and they declined, we possibly have those we approached and they accepted. So I am vehemently against the adoption of one strategy.
Joebie has written a fine piece that expresses my full sentiments on this issue. I endorse it and adopt it as mine(with his kind permission)

I like the Omidji example you pointed out. I hope you realise the boys parents were always edging him close to Nigeria.
He traveled sometime ago to meet some Super Eagles players. If his parents didn't take steps to channel his thoughts towards Nigeria, trust me, the Nff wouldn't have heard about him let alone sending birthday wishes to him.

Sometimes you just have to show interest. If you're good enough, you will get invited.

Also, we must one thing very clearly. Because you're born in Europe doesn't automatically make you better than everyone else. This was how the Swiss born Ukoh was capped severally because na oyibo.
Recall Semi Ajayi made John obuhs U20s? I laughed so hard. I mean, if the boy went into an arse kicking content against a one legged man, he will loose! Thats how incompetent the lad is, yet he took up squad space just because he was born in London and trained with Arsenal U23s.

We must be careful. Being born in Europe is not some Holy grail or passport to success.

Poaching foreign born players shouldn't be standard practice for a country like ours, especially in football.

Mujtahida:
You've still not told why they chose Greece over Nigeria. Were they approached and they declined? It's the reason for their decision I want to understand.

He started representing Greece when he was just 20. How could you blame the Nbbf for not reaching out to a 19 year old playing in Greek A2?
Come on!
You honestly want to blame Nigeria for not reaching out to every kid in America and Europe?
Do you know how many NBA basketballer who have turned down Nigeria?

Someone like Andre Iguduala does not even acknowledge his Benin ancestry. Is it Oladipo? This guy was begged to come play for us at the last Olympics. He bluntly refused even when he's known to mingle well within the Nigerian community in Houston.
How about Emeka Okafor when he lead the NBA blocks then at Bobcats? He didn't even want to entertain the thoughts of turning out for us. I knew his sister back in 2003.
How about Festus Ezeli?

We have to be honest with ourselves and understand that we cannot get everyone to play for us. Its rather childish to always blame Nigeria for missing out on choice players.

Gbinije and a host of other guys who turned out for us lately where poached while they played college basketball.

The youngest of the Antetokumpo brothers pledged his international future to Greece while still in high school (he had crazy numbers in high school).

Mujtahida:
They are four brothers not three: Francis(Andreas) Giannis, Thanasis and Alexis. Do you perchance know why none of them is interested in playing for Nigeria? Because nothing happens in vacuum.
Well, when the poster I referred to was asked by another poster how Giannis and his family felt towards Nigeria, suspecting that they must feel bitter towards Nigeria, the poster said No, the parents werent bitter but on the contrary they encouraged their children to play for Nigeria and that if he (the poster) was still involved with Nigerian basketball at the time he met them he would have convinced them to play for Nigeria but that by then Gianis was already in the Greek selection radar and that fastreacked him turning out for Greece.

They should have reached out to the Nbbf. Nigeria's basketball policy actually favoured Nigerians in diaspora for obvious reasons.
In the championship winning class of 2015, Stanley Gumut was the only home grown player we had in the team.

Since Giannis was already playing for Greece, why aren't his brothers considering Nigeria? His kid brother while still in high school declared for Greece. I don't know if I can find a link to this.
If I can, I will post it.

Joebie:
Harry Kane withdraws. Tammy Abraham's debut now more likely.

Good news for Tammy then.
Gareth Southgate, bless him. If he goes to the world cup with the likes of Tammy Abraham and got knocked out early. His head will be on the chopping block not mine.

I have been using glo for the past 3 months and to be honest, I'm surprised when people complain about poor network on glo.
I seamlessly stream YouTube videos, transfer data in excess of 1.2 gig almost on daily basis without hiccups whatsoever.
Within the 3 months I have used glo, I have travelled across 5 states and even to my village, still I get good H+ reception.

I suspect those complaining aren't really using glo. Probably, yabbing glo has become the new cool.

Mujtahida:
Please I know this is a football thread so I crave the indulgence of everyone to post this story on Giannis Atetokuonmpo aka the Greek Freak

---

The Unspeakable Greatness of Giannis Antetokounmpo
The Bucks’ All-Star isn’t changing the way his position is played. He’s changing the way all the positions are played.
By MARC STEIN NOVEMBER 3, 2017

The Milwaukee Bucks’ Giannis Antetokounmpo is already in the conversation for the Most Valuable Player Award this season.
STACY REVERE/GETTY IMAGES
By MARC STEIN
November 3, 2017
MILWAUKEE — Michael Redd averaged 26.7 points per game at the height of his Milwaukee Bucks career. Redd earned a $91 million contract as a Buck, won an Olympic gold medal while a member of the Bucks and stood as the Bucks’ lone N.B.A. All-Star for a span exceeding a decade.

You could thus make the case that Redd, based on his résumé, knows better than anyone else in the basketball universe how it feels to be Giannis Antetokounmpo.

The problem: Redd couldn’t suppress a laugh when that idea was presented to him.

As he stood on the floor of the Bucks’ first home, in anticipation of watching the Antetokounmpo show at an arena unforgettably known as the Mecca, Redd made the claim that none of his predecessors — from this franchise or otherwise — could truly identify with the prodigy affectionately known as the Greek Freak.

“I’ve never seen anybody like him,” Redd said. “We’ve never seen anything like this.

“The numbers he’s getting right now are almost on accident. Once he learns how to play play — unstoppable. It’s almost like he’s from another planet.”


This is the sort of breathless praise Antetokounmpo routinely inspires in his fifth N.B.A. season. Building on a 2016-17 campaign in which he became the Bucks’ first All-Star since Redd in 2004 and won the N.B.A.’s Most Improved Player Award, Antetokounmpo zoomed to averages of 31.3 points, 10.6 rebounds and 5.1 assists entering Friday’s play — benchmarks no player in league history had ever hit, in unison, through the season’s first eight games.

Yet it is the manner in which he operates, on top of the sheer statistical delirium, that makes the 22-year-old from Greece such a phenomenon. The N.B.A. is famed for the comparison game it triggers any time a new star emerges, but no one has quite figured out how to size up this 6-foot-11 235-pounder who occasionally needs just one dribble from midcourt to swoop to the rim and does all that scoring without a dependable perimeter stroke to open up the rest of his game.


Is he a budding Magic Johnson — albeit with more athletic ability? Is he the next LeBron James — only blessed with much more size and length? Can we call him a full-fledged point guard now? Is it more accurate to say he’s more of a point forward?

What, exactly, is he?

“Point all,” Bucks Coach Jason Kidd said, after a lengthy pause in search of the proper summation.


The veteran Bucks guard Jason Terry, referring to his former longtime teammate Dirk Nowitzki, the revolutionary power forward, explained the conundrum this way:

“Dirk, in my eyes, is the best European player to ever play this game,” Terry said. “He literally changed the way his position is played. But Giannis doesn’t even have a position. He does it all, and he’s still learning what to do out there.”

A Huge Milwaukee Fan

To the Bucks’ delight, “all” includes a trait that tantalizes team officials as much as his 60 percent shooting from the field so far, or anything else the league’s hottest individual force does with a basketball in his hands: Antetokounmpo unabashedly loves Milwaukee.

It’s a city that, despite a string of successful teams in the 1980s and a squad that fell one win short of the N.B.A. finals in 2001, has never fully shed its “unfashionable” label, which was affixed when the best player in Bucks history — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar — forced a trade to the perennially glamorous Los Angeles Lakers in 1975.

But Antetokounmpo, in a recent interview, went so far as to assert that where he plays directly influences how he plays.


“I’m a low-profile guy,” he said. “I don’t like all these flashy cities like L.A. or Miami. I don’t know if I could be the same player if I played in those cities.”

N.B.A. teams saddled with Milwaukee’s small-market, glamour-shy profile generally live in fear of big-market behemoths signing away their brightest talents at the first free-agent opportunity. Antetokounmpo is in the first year of a four-year, $100 million contract extension — $11 million less than the maximum he could have signed for — but the Bucks are well aware that teams out there are plotting their recruiting pitches for the summer of 2021.

Visitors to Milwaukee, however, quickly discover that it’s no exaggeration to describe Antetokounmpo’s future as the least of the Bucks’ concerns in their bid to become a credible contender for the first time in nearly two decades. It also doesn’t hurt that, by virtue of his speedy ascension to All-N.B.A. status and contention for other top individual honors, Antetokounmpo is on a course to be eligible for a so-called “supermax” contract extension from the Bucks via the league’s new Designated Player Exception during the 2020 off-season, which would put him in line for a new deal well in excess of $200 million.

As he tweeted in July, to the presumed glee of every Milwaukeean, “I got loyalty inside my DNA.”


An Unexpected Loss

The connective tissue that links this star, team and city runs as dense as you’ll find on the N.B.A. map, perhaps surpassed only by Nowitzki’s two decades’ worth of roots in Dallas or maybe the deep bonds shared in San Antonio by Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili. Milwaukee hasn’t simply been the backdrop for Antetokounmpo’s fairy tale rise to American stardom; it has been home for virtually his whole family for all but the first few months of his N.B.A. life.

Antetokounmpo admits, furthermore, that the unexpected death of his father just over a month ago has him leaning on his adopted hometown more than ever. Charles Antetokounmpo died of a heart attack on Sept. 29 at age 54.

“I can feel the love from the city every day I step on the floor,” Giannis Antetokounmpo said. “For me, what I’m going through now, I appreciate it even more.”

Charles and Veronica Antetokounmpo, who moved from Nigeria to Greece as undocumented immigrants in 1991 in search of a better life, secured the necessary paperwork to relocate to Milwaukee along with Giannis’s two younger brothers halfway through his rookie season. Kostas Antetokounmpo is a redshirt freshman at the University of Dayton now, but the rest of the family moved into a new downtown complex before this season, with Giannis and Alexandros Antetokounmpo (a high school sophomore) housed on the fifth floor and Charles and Veronica on the fourth.

After years of well-chronicled struggle for the family in a northern section of Athens known as Sepolia, they have found Milwaukee as idyllic as it was portrayed to be in the sitcom “Happy Days,” where not even the frigid winters can detract from the comfort they’ve experienced as a unit.

Only now, as they confront Charles’s death, even more responsibility has been heaped on the ever-widening shoulders of the Bucks’ phenom. Veronica Antetokounmpo, meanwhile, has moved up a flight to be with her sons on the fifth floor in the wake of her husband’s death.

“Leading your family is a lot tougher than basketball,” Antetokounmpo said. “Especially right now. But I’ve got to be strong for my family.

“Things,” he continued, “are going to get better.”

Places to Improve

The areas for on-court improvement are obvious for Antetokounmpo even as he stuffs box score after box score. His outside shot still needs copious amounts of work — he is not close to trusting it in times of need — and there is room for growth in reading the game at both ends, consistently making his teammates better and refining his decision-making.

Yet it’s also ridiculous, and rather cold, to nitpick what is missing from Antetokounmpo’s blossoming game given the level he is consistently hitting with that 7-foot-3 wingspan of his. Doubly so at a time of profound grief.


“He’s like a plane that just started taking off,” Kidd said. “He’s at 10,000 feet.”

When he arrived in Wisconsin, via the 15th overall pick in the 2013 N.B.A. draft, Antetokounmpo was measured at 6 feet 9 inches and weighed less than 200 pounds. A half-decade later, he is closing in on 240 pounds, and coaches and teammates routinely refer to him as a 7-footer.

The Milwaukee assistant coach Frank Johnson, noting Antetokounmpo’s bulked-up body and added strength, said, “He gets bumped now and he loves it.”

As for his perimeter game, Johnson preaches patience, pointing to the countless nights of extra shooting he is getting alongside the mentoring “Coach Sweeney” — the Bucks assistant coach Sean Sweeney. The way Johnson talks about the work-in-progress jumper is reminiscent of what league observers said for years about Shaquille O’Neal’s persistent free-throw woes.

“If he had that already,” Johnson said, “it wouldn’t be fair.”

Terry, the Bucks guard, said: “Of course he has to keep working on his outside game. But Giannis just has a peaceful confidence about himself. You can see it. Last year, he didn’t have that.”

The legendary Kobe Bryant, now in his second season of retirement, had seen enough coming into training camp to challenge Antetokounmpo via Twitter in late August to make a bid for the league’s Most Valuable Player Award.


Asked why he set such a high target, as part of his #MambaMentality campaign, Bryant said last week via email that he was moved by Antetokounmpo’s “rare physical gifts that are matched by a rare inner passion.”
‘The Giannis Effect’

Bucks staffers do worry that Antetokounmpo is occasionally too hard on himself, having watched him head straight for the practice floor on the same night as a frustrating loss more times than they care to remember. One example of his blame-me tendencies: He said last week, on the morning after a home setback to the Boston Celtics, that he was still angry “for personal reasons,” implying that the 96-89 defeat was all his fault.

But the Bucks do not try to influence Antetokounmpo’s thinking too much. They prefer to let him figure things out as they come — except when he decided during the summer that he wanted to have a garage sale as a part of his recent move.

He wanted to stage the sale to pay homage to his Athens youth, when he and his brothers had to peddle knockoff watches and sunglasses to help his parents and siblings survive. The Bucks’ front office and Veronica Antetokounmpo ultimately talked him out of it.

“I’m a great seller — that’s one of the other talents I have,” Giannis Antetokounmpo said. “I wanted to do it so bad. But they told me I couldn’t because three or four thousand people would show up.”

Sounds like a safe estimate given the Bucks’ rising popularity in Green Bay Packers territory and Antetokounmpo’s central role in that rise.

At the Milwaukee Brat House near the team’s current Bradley Center home, the manager Jennifer Fellin said she saw more patrons wearing Bucks gear now than at any other point in her eight-year stint at the restaurant. It is a fashion trend she attributes largely to the Giannis Effect.

The Antetokounmpo-led Bucks, Fellin asserted, have risen to “cool” status.

“They have breathed new life into the city,” Gino Fazzari, owner of the nearby Calderone Club restaurant, said.

Team executives, mind you, are realistic. They know Antetokounmpo will be fiercely pursued by rival teams (and, perhaps more worryingly, stars from rival teams) at the earliest opportunity. They know those future suitors will point to a three-headed Bucks ownership structure that has come under increasing scrutiny in recent months and paint the arrangement as a potential source of instability. They know, even as construction proceeds swiftly on an impressive $524 million arena scheduled to open next fall and complement Milwaukee’s gleaming new practice facility across the street, that Antetokounmpo might find it hard someday to resist looking around if the Bucks cannot fortify their roster and rediscover playoff success.

After all, even Bryant and Tim Duncan — two legends whom he hopes to emulate in terms of never switching teams, as Antetokounmpo recently told Time Magazine — flirted with leaving their teams before opting for the increasingly rare only-one-jersey approach.

“I really don’t see Giannis going anywhere,” Redd said. “Even in the future.

“With what he’s doing on the court, it’s going to automatically draw people to come play with him. I know people have that stigma about Milwaukee. But it won’t be hard for him to attract talent here. I just want a ring when they get a ring.”

Outlandish as the retired Redd sounds at the moment — given, for starters, Milwaukee’s lack of a consistent second scoring option as well as a need for more speed and more shooting — Antetokounmpo encourages the lofty talk. He is convincing when he says he thinks he “can take this organization to the next level and bring that championship,” undoubtedly projecting so much confidence because he’s so aware of how far he has come.

In the month since his father’s death, Antetokounmpo revealed that he often found himself looking at a picture on a private Instagram page he maintains. The image shows Giannis, Kostas, Alexandros and their older brother, Thanasis, who currently plays for Panathinaikos in Greece after a brief stint with the Knicks, all sleeping in the same bed.

Giannis estimates that he was 10 or 11 at the time. One bed for the four children was all Charles and Veronica Antetokounmpo could manage. The parents slept in a small nearby den, as Giannis recalled, behind “like a curtain.”

“It’s an unbelievable story,” Antetokounmpo said. “Good stuff.”

Memories like that leave little doubt why the only N.B.A. city that the Greek Freak has ever known can feel like the promised land.

“There’s a lot of things you can do in Milwaukee, too,” he said proudly.

The whole league can see that now.

Gainnis Antetokumpo is not a new kid on the block. His potential is well known when he burst on the scene back in 2014 I think? He played in the world all star team against team USA in the all star game of 2015.
Infact, the Antetokuopo are 3 brothers. They all play basketball. The youngest seem to have the highest celine. At high school, he was almost 7ft tall.
Sadly, none of them is interested in playing for Nigeria. If someone told you otherwise, ask him about the youngest of the Antetokuopo's.

TheGoodJoe:
By the way, Oga Boss, Icon4s, I owe you an apology. After a long thought and careful consideration, I think I might be wrong in my assessment of Garba Lawal. He might have been atrocious when it comes to his creative attributes. Especially his passing and crossing.

However, there are other attributes that can make coaches stick to particular players despite their creative weaknesses. Attributes like defensive positioning, covering gaps, strong mentality, discipline (Garba Lawal always showed up early to camp), work rate and depth in understanding tactics.

Mr Lawal was never the technical wizard who will dazzle past players for fun and score bicycle kick goals. He never had that in his locker.
He was a player who was deployed for tactical reasons. When you want to cancel out and totally extinguish the efficacy of an opposition wing man, Mr Lawal was the go to guy. He will stick to that opponent like a pimple and frustrate him out of the game.

Bora started him against Spain in France 98 for this reason.

He was also the main reason why we won Cameroun in Tunisia 2004. Tactically he was assigned to do a job on Geremi Njitap. He stuck to this task diligently and frustrated Geremi out of the game. As a result, Eto and Mboma who relied on balls from Geremi were starved and frustrated. We got a break and finished them off.
We didn't out football the Camerounians on the day, rather we read their game plan and countered them to great effect.
Wilfred Schafer was left scratching his head after the game how his tactics was demystified.

If you wanted to do a man marking job on Messi, Lawal will be your go to guy.

tbaba1234:
Fegor Ogude has been out for a very long time with a spine injury.

He just returned last month and played his first full game this weekend. How exactly do you invite people with spine injury?

It is not as if we do not know what Ogude can offer.

Fengor is a mechanical footballer just like Karibe Ojigwe. I knew him when he played for Warri Wolves.
Wouldn't want him near this team.

tbaba1234:
What is objectivity? Statistics is the easiest way to be objective.

Leicester has not done too well but based on stats. Ndidi is the top tackler in the league. That is what DMs do.

The job of a DM goes beyond tackling. Couqelin is just a replica of Ndidi. Same style, poor passing and high energy level. He used to lead the Epl in tackles but he can't even get a game these days.

tbaba1234:
Getting dribbled often comes with the territory of putting tackles up and down.

He puts in a lot of work and was only behind Kante last season, i believe. If he keeps it up, he will move to a major club soon.

He relies on his tall legs to bail him out of tackles. If he was a foot shorter, he would have been sent off more than a couple of times.

As for getting a look in from big clubs, he could well get a look in but he will be deployed at CB not DM. Top clubs like DMs with good ball distribution and this has been Ndidi's weakest arsenal. His passing has a lot to be desired.
I think he could develop into a fine CB ala Vincent Kompany (who played as a DM during his days at Hamburg).