₦airaland Forum

TheGoodJoe:
There is a difference between agree to disagree and blatant denial of pure facts which baffles me. Imagine Rooney saying Roy Keane passes well and someone here is trying to look for an excuse to show he knows more than Rooney. Nwannem I do not know how to agree that.

Someone trying to play down the DMF role because he wants to taint Mikel's impact is a no, no for me. I do not know how to agree to disagree.

Nobody was lying anywhere. The fact that you didn't play organised football might have skewed your thinking about certain aspects of the game that only those who played could relate to.

Look, back when we played Street football/monkey post. The street bullies usually looked better than they are because we avoided squaring up against them. You give those sort of players an arms length, this translated to them bullies looking rather good..

This was the same case with Roy Keane. People avoided squaring up against him. When Viera took it upon himself to go toe to toe with him, all hell broke loose. Each time Man Utd played Arsenal, Viera swallowed him, imagine if all the teams in the Premiership had fearless guys like Viera, Keane would have been forced into an early retirement.

To forumites complaining, my apologies for contributing to spamming the thread. I was just replying my mentions, never knew this arguement stretched into pages. These things are bound to happen in a male dominated football thread.
Peace out

TheGoodJoe:
Not nominated. Van Gaal voted Keane the best. Gerrit?

Voted means nomination.

William Gallas and Gyan were once upon a time nominated.

TheGoodJoe:
The tens of articles that point how Good Keane was to you is biased. That one is unbiased to you because it suits your narrative forgetting that it also highlights how you goofed trying to make Keane a poor footballer.

Keep in mind, Van Gaal once voted Keane as the best player in the World. At least he is not a United fanatic.

Learn or Argue, it is up to you.

Sami Hypia, Asamoha Gyan, William Gallas were once nominated for world footballer of the year. I think it was Fabregas who nominated Gyan.

Imagine Hypia being nominated. Should tell you all you need to know

TheGoodJoe:

The same player you tried to make poor. No matter how you try to dribble, the point is very clear. Keane was a good footballer. A very good one and you were wrong. Learn or Argue. It is up to you.

Our technical juggernaut knocked out Gabriel Heinze in the dressing room.

"I knew that was bad so I stood up to him, this idol of Manchester, this great guy who everyone loved, and replied: "F*** off, you". I don't remember what happened next."

Asked if that was because he was knocked out, he replied: "Yes. Yes."

©Daily mirror

The man's was a street thug, not a football player.

TheGoodJoe:
What do you think made Mikel an enigma in 2005 WYC? Do you think he was spraying acrobatic passes allover the field? No it was the metronome passes that made the team tick. Simple but strictly intelligent passes, making the right decisions always.

I watched Mikel and exclaimed. I hope Maradona has seen how to play the ten role. That was the genius of Scholes.

How can you learn when you avoid the multitude of good reviews and hang to a few negative reviews as a balanced report.

The concensus of the thread is Keane was a fantastic passer. It is very clear to even you. The point is exhausted. You have learnt with vast amount of points.

It is up to you to learn or not. The point is clearly made. I will leave you with another quote.

Man Utd fanatics will always belive their players were better than they naturally are. Alot of people on the thread had fun exaggerating his abilities.
Even Keane himself will feel flattered if he read some of those comments.

You could see some of those who tried to give an unbiased view of his game were lambasted for not being real Utd fans.
This is one of those unbiased views.



Another unbiased quote

[b] Roy Keane had 3 abilities that in my opinion made him stand out.

1) He made everyone work close to 100% - everyone was afraid of him, and knew they would get it if they didn't perform.
2) He never lost the ball. You could play the ball to him - almost regardless of where he was, and he would keep the ball. This probably had a lot to do with a lot of players being afraid of Keane, so they wouldn't pressure him the same way they will di Maria.
3) He made the right choices - his passes weren't necessarily brilliant or hard to do - they just were right. He never made it harder than it had to be.

TheGoodJoe:
The truth is that you deliberately pulled a fast one to hide the reviews Keane got for his ability as a brilliant passer. I am just going through the first page of the forum and mostly positives.


















http://www.redcafe.net/threads/how-good-was-roy-keane-particularly-his-passing-revisited.404381/

You made it look like they disagreed with Rooney when lots agreed.

You goofed. Let it go because deceit is new low here.

cc: Mujtahida

Another unbiased quote

Roy Keane had 3 abilities that in my opinion made him stand out.

1) He made everyone work close to 100% - everyone was afraid of him, and knew they would get it if they didn't perform.
2) He never lost the ball. You could play the ball to him - almost regardless of where he was, and he would keep the ball. This probably had a lot to do with a lot of players being afraid of Keane, so they wouldn't pressure him the same way they will di Maria.
3) He made the right choices - his passes weren't necessarily brilliant or hard to do - they just were right. He never made it harder than it had to be.

TheGoodJoe:
The truth is that you deliberately pulled a fast one to hide the reviews Keane got for his ability as a brilliant passer. I am just going through the first page of the forum and mostly positives.




















http://www.redcafe.net/threads/how-good-was-roy-keane-particularly-his-passing-revisited.404381/

You made it look like they disagreed with Rooney when lots agreed.

You goofed. Let it go because deceit is new low here.

cc: Mujtahida

It is a Man Utd forum anyway. You expect to see people exaggerate things. I picked comments by those who were unbiased.

[b] From my memory, his passing was good. I do think some people are being overly poetic about it though, perhaps to counter the other extreme. If we are constantly saying 'he obviously wasn't a Scholes though' - that is kind of the point. He wasn't a brilliant passer. That's what it means to be a central midfielder who is 'obviously not a Scholes'. I can't think of other midfielders who are not in the Scholes, Pirlo, Alonso etc bracket of passing being remembered for their passing. Doesn't mean they had two left feet, but it wasn't good enough to be called great.
All that 'he didn't play Hollywood passes but was a master at passing it 5 yards so the receiver didn't break stride' - again, just sounds like poetry to me. I believe there are many midfielders not known for their passing who could have the same said about them. They should not be called poor passers but we shouldn't get carried away either. Of course, if Keane was more expansive in his Forest days then fair enough, I don't really recall.[/b]


He wasn't a fantastic/excellent passer by any means, if he was, then what words would we then use to describe Scholes, redondo, pirlo, zidane?


To find people in a Man Utd forum who say he was a rich man's Lee Catermole is an indication to what he truly was all about.

I saw Zidane, Nedved, Scholes, Reycoba, Okocha, Valderama, Riquelme, Rivaldo amongst others, I can't associate Roy Keane being in the same technical level like these guys. I'm sorry

TheGoodJoe:
My reply is simply you making out Matthaus as a creative midfielder primarily. He was also def as a Dmf and CB. Finish.

I am shocked you saw this post on Redcafe and tried to play down the ability of Keano.


[b]

Completely agree. He and Robson simply couldn't have been our midfield generals for over a decade without being top class passers, that's how it's always been at this club. Keane was the one running our midfield from the moment Ince left to the moment he went to Celtic. I can understand things like "Vieira was the more gifted footballer" and "Keane's will to win stood above all else" being misinterpreted by the younger fans as him being a destroyer but I can't understand people watching him week in, week out and thinking that.

When he was named in the PL team of the year with Forest he was an attacking midfielder bursting on ahead of the forward time and again. In his first couple of seasons with us you'd see him running up the wing or getting into the box every bit as often as you'd see him in his own half. And to suggest he couldn't unlock opposition defences? Crazy. His passing unlocked plenty of defences and if that wasn't working he'd just go on a typical driving run like so:

[/b]

The person you quoted wasn't even saying this in absolute. The truth is that you're trying to over empathise on his passing which wasn't too bad but not the core of his game.
Even Gattuso could pass a football.

komekn:
I agree with the larger part of your view.

He was definitely not a technically gifted player, a simplistic ENFORCER with a bit more intelligence than Vinny Jones. Defensive midfielder who prided himself as the hardest man in football.

Keane's autobiography in August 2002, in which he stated that he intended "to hurt" Håland. Keane's account of the incident was as follows:



I'd waited long enough. I fucking hit him hard. The ball was there (I think). Take that you cunt. And don't ever stand over me sneering about fake injuries.

In today modern game he would not be able to make it into the premiership. Beyond bully boy tactics which worked in the EPL at that time, he didn't offer much more.

Never forget the day Thierry Henry got into an argument with him. He tried to get rough, but Henry mesmerised him with skill and left him for dead.

He will be in the list of most red cards in the EPL and that's with alleged favouritism given to Fergies players. He Keane should have been given a lot more than he got.

The man was a brawler. A thug, I was surprised TheGoodJoe tried to talk about his technical abilities. The mam was famous for his ferocious tackles, brawls, fights and thuggery.

We are talking about a man who said he loved seeing players in pain.


Ireland assistant boss Roy Keane has delivered a stark warning to his players ahead of Euro 2016, saying they should be carrying knocks because they should be hitting people hard.
Manchester United legend Keane forged a reputation as a no-nonsense hard man in midfield for the Red Devils during his trophy-laden career at Old Trafford.
He has told his players it's a 'man's game', and that they don't need to take pain killers every time they pick up a slight injury.

©Daily mirror..

What an absolute beast of a man.

TheGoodJoe:
You can talk of him winning the award. I have no problem with that. It is trying to make it look as if he did not play the Dmf role a lot that is disturbing.

The issue was the DMs aren't fancied, edi287 raised Matheus name as one who got recognition and won European footballer of year as a DM. The truth was that Matheus won European footballer of the year and a host of other individual awards on the back of his performance as an attacking midfielder. It was just like saying Yaya Toure won APOTY as a DM.

TheGoodJoe:
Did you read during his time at San Siro? Matthaus played multiple roles including DM and CB.


Greatest Ever: Football's Top 10 Defensive Midfielders of All Time

1. Lothar Matthaus (GER)

Matthaus was the only defensive midfielder to make it on to the original central midfielders list, and it's not hard to see why. His five World Cup campaigns remains a record for an outfield player, as does his 25 World Cup appearances.

During his club career, Matthaus won seven Bundesliga titles, three German Cups, a Serie A title, and two UEFA Cup titles. Internationally, he helped Germany to the 1980 European Championships, and led them to World Cup success ten years later.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/231097-greatest-ever-football-the-top-10-defensive-midfielders-of-all-time

It was at Inter Milan Matheus won European footballer of the year and so many other individual awards. At Inter he played primarily as an attacking midfielder.
Cc edi287

TheGoodJoe:
So you want us to take the words of forum members over Wayne Rooney who played with Keane. Amazing.

Just admit it. You now Know Roy Keane was a baller. You goofed. Finito.

Rooney said he was a guy who wen tambour making tackles all over the pitch. No way he said he was a technical wizard.

Those forum members are Man Utd fans themselves. They have no reason to be biased in their judgment.
The man was a thug who kicked people all over the place. He was no football genius.

edi287:
Lothar Matthaus...

A natural leader, Matthaus drove and inspired and combined strong, inherently German mental attributes with an unerring quality on the ball.[b] Matthaus was primarily deployed as an attacking midfielder during his time at the San Siro , and from this advanced position he delivered a healthy goals return, scoring at a rate of better than one goal in every three league games. These goals were indicative of Matthaus’ well-honed and all-round game. [/b]

http://www.footballitaliano.co.uk/p6_66_983_lessons-in-calcio-lothar-matthaus.html

Lothar Matheus was a proper no 10 please. I didn't think you were serious when you mentioned him last night as a DM.

bigblangston:
I don't think that slow start to a game by the eagles can be stopped anytime soon, in fact it has been ingrained into all our national football team be it female football or Age grade teams, it's now a routine or better put CULTURE to start like that.

But I'm expecting a good game with a 4-2-3-1 game plan

I hope we arrest this first 20 minutes lethargy. We will be punished at the world cup if we don't fix it. An Argentine manager once explained that they knew Nigeria were always lethargic in the first 20 minutes and they organised themselves to take advantage of this.

I don't know why African teams haven't figured this out.

TheGoodJoe:
His passing was probably the best I’ve played with, in terms of getting it to the forward’s feet.

I’d always associated him as someone who got around the pitch making tackles, but his passing blew me away.’...Wayne Rooney

Agree with this. He wasn't bad at all but definitely an exegeration to call him a great passer as some have said.

©Manutd Redcafe

TheGoodJoe:
His passing was probably the best I’ve played with, in terms of getting it to the forward’s feet.

I’d always associated him as someone who got around the pitch making tackles, but his passing blew me away.’...Wayne Rooney

This is so mental.. His workrate and tackling are what made him.. He could paas but it was not one of his best traits by any means..

©Man Utd redcafe

TheGoodJoe:
His passing was probably the best I’ve played with, in terms of getting it to the forward’s feet.

I’d always associated him as someone who got around the pitch making tackles, but his passing blew me away.’...Wayne Rooney

"Keane wasn't some pass master, which it seems some are making out to be. He had an extremely limited passing range, used to mainly play safe passes and the only really somewhat risky pass he'd play is the flat one through the lines into an attackers feet. Let's not make him sound like Scholes here."
©manutd redcafe

TheGoodJoe:
With Roy, I knew he was a great footballer, but until I played with him I didn’t realize how great.

His passing was probably the best I’ve played with, in terms of getting it to the forward’s feet.

I’d always associated him as someone who got around the pitch making tackles, but his passing blew me away.’...Wayne Rooney

Considering Rooney’s played with pass masters such as Carrick, Scholes, Giggs, and Beckham, Gerrard and Lampard for England, it’s a huge compliment to make to his former captain, who he only played with in the twilight of the Irishman’s career.

http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/manchester-uniteds-wayne-rooney-roy-keane-is-the-best-passer-ive-ever-played-with-times-interview/

You can learn or keep arguing.

Reading through the statement you will realise Rooney subtly remarked that he was the type who went about making tackles all over the pitch. Why would he think that he does that in the first place?

TheGoodJoe:
Move on. You goofed. Now you know Roy Keane was a good footballer. Trying to defend the goof led you to another goof. A career ending tackle does not mean Roy Keane could not ball well. He was a genius. Finito.

Keep deluding yourself. You should be thanking me for enlightening you about Roy Keane.

This is what I found on reddit forum


" Everything Roy Keane achieved in football wasn't because he was the most talented or the most creative it's because he wanted it more than anyone else. I probably wouldn't like him as a friend but I'd love if he was on my team.
Now he was talented and he was creative but what singled him out was drive. I hate United but his performance against Juventus in the '99 semi-final, especially after he was carded and knew he'd miss the final, was ridiculous.
6"
https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/4nrhkc/how_good_was_roy_keane_in_his_prime/.



The first sentence should guide you to know what Roy Keane brought to the table.

TheGoodJoe:
Please learn before you go and say this outside. Simple Roy Keane is a baller. Will you say because of Balotelli's bad attitude that he can not play ball?

Accept you goofed. Take correction and move on.

Obviously you don't know Roy Keane. I will be surprised if you knew his shirt number for Utd or Ireland without checking Google. Roy Keane was known to be first and foremost a brawler.

(Former Manchester United captain Roy Keane has revealed he once left teammate Peter Schmeichel with a black eye following a pre-season brawl).

It's a shame you can come up here to make assumptions that Roy Keane was otherwise technically brilliant. What you can't say on international forum, you comfortably write such here.

Abeg don't make me laugh

TheGoodJoe:
Does this mean Aguero lacks technical ability and is a poor footballer?

Aguero: Let me kill this David Luiz for his mother.

I guess David Luiz career came to an end after this "tackle". I put it the parenthesis because this is a still image. Sometimes camera angles can exaggerate a situation.

TheGoodJoe:
Does that say anything about his footballing ways?

No wonder you goofed. I said Roy Keane is a balling genius you are showing injuring somebody. Na wa O.

The footage was to show you he was a proper thug, a street brawler. I don't want to spam the thread by posting more videos.

How many careers did Pirlo or Xavi end with such crunch tackle as exhibited by the footballing genius Roy Keane? You must answer this question oh!

TheGoodJoe:
Story, story, story. You goofed big time. That is all. You can try to dig yourself out but you missed it totally that Roy Keane was a footballing genius.

Finito.

Roy Keane Ends Håland's Career In Manchester Derby:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_st29mlQwU

Genius at ending careers. I agree.

TheGoodJoe:
As I knew. You do not know what you were arguing and was bound to goof soon. Roy Keane was not just a thug. Understand that he was a balling genius. As I said, stick to what you know. I have explained it clearly but because of I must argue you just goofed.

Roy Keane was a proper thug. Read up want transpired in the famous pizza gate saga.
Roy Keane ended the career of Haland, a Man city player in one of the most horrific tackles every seen in the Epl. Roy Keane was a proper thug.
You have no idea what you're talking about if you think he was a technical genius. He's an Irish skin head who kicked lumps out of people.

Mujtahida:
This argument on legends is becoming legendary. Are we suffering from paucity of issues to discuss that we have to go back to this beat up topic.
Guys let's deliberate on this Zambia matter
Abeg Joebie give me your outline for the best tactical approach to this Zambia game. Wing play abi midfield thrust abi combination of both? How do we contain the pace and athleticism of the Zambians.
Cc
Forgiveness, goodjoe, mickael2, goldfish80, kog45, bigblang, Chrismario, etc

I expect a professional game from the Super Eagles. Hopefully Genort Rohr will fix our now famous first 10-20 minutes lethargy.

This time around I expect us to start on the front foot, playing sensible football.

I expect the Zambians to show resilience in certain phases but ultimately I expect them to crack in the second half. Being a young side, they are bound to make a few errors in the second half. The likes of Kelechi and Iwobi will have a lot of fun coming into the fray in the second half when the Zambians are considerably gassed out.

TheGoodJoe:
Do not say he had no technical ability. I have explained it clearly to you but you chose to delve in the misconception. Dunga played in a role that requires the sacrifice of whatever creative talent he has for the good of the team.

It is clearly explained in the Vieira quote.

If we did not watch Mikel in his early days for the Junior teams of Nigeria or his games with the Super Eagles, many will argue due to his role at Chelsea that Mikel is not a skillful player.

Watching Dunga play as a shield or central defender repeatedly does not mean he lacked creative ability.

Secondly, you can say the defensive part of the game is important and a big part of their calling. You can not say that is the only role. They are defensive midfielders. There is a reason for the midfielders. It has to do more with intelligence than brute force.

I think the point is well explained.

Maybe you're related to Dunga or you were privy to watch him when he played in the streets to know he had immeasurable technical abilities that he sacrificed for the team. The Dunga the world saw was a thug. Just like Roy Keane, Diop, Thomas Graveson, Gattuso, Deschamps and the rest skin heads I have over the years watched play the DM role.

There used to be one guy who played for Iwuanyanwu in the 80's and 90's I'm sure Kog45 can remember his name. His only job was to come in and break the leg of the opposition's best player's leg. Guess what position he played? DM of course!

DM's are meant to be strong, powerful and they usually take one for the team. Do you know what it means to take one for the team in this context? That means to kick the opposition when they are threading dangerously to goal..

TheGoodJoe:
Stop saying why do they praise one and leave the other. It is simply overlooking of he important role to play. Every thing you need to understand the importance is typed out there.

Saying they are only destroyers is ridiculous. They also play a big part in keeping possession. They make sure the team stay organized and they also help the team build attacks by connecting the defence to the midfield.

At least read the Vieira quote there and understand.

Their job description first and foremost is breaking up play. Dunga used to do this for Brazil. He had no technical abilities to put it mildly.

A technically challenged player can have a very successful career play as a DM. Makelele and Deschamps are perfect examples.

TheGoodJoe:
Lol. If you think Creativity and goals is all that matters. No matter how flashy the sports car is, it still needs an engine. Those creative players leave gaps that opponents exploits. Without defensive midfielders, those teams will take loads.


Steve McManaman called Makelele "the most important and yet least appreciated midfielder at Real" while Fernando Hierro echoed him, saying: "he's been the best player in the team for years but people just don't notice him".

The creative ones might get the praise and glory but they know where the game was won.

You can't reinvent the wheel. DMs are important for the balance of the team. DM is rather a more polished word used to describe them. Their proper name is "Destroyers". They basically harrass opponents and protect their team, doing this perfectly well frees up the attacking players to win games.

Having them in a team is golden but that position does not attract goodwill which translates to sponsorship and endorsements which other players in more fancied positions get. How many billboards have you seen Makelele, Busqets and the likes? Compare what they get to guys like Neymar, Rooney, Bale. DMs are basically not sellable or the marketing dream for endorsements.

Odion Ighalo got endorsement for that Dstv ad when he was not an important member of the Super Eagles then. Onazi who have been a regular for the Super Eagles, I am yet to see him on TV marketing for any brand.

Sometimes you have to accept how the world works. You can't reinvent the wheel.

TheGoodJoe:
Stereotype is a widely held idea but not generally true. What you quoted up there is saying what I am saying. Due to the Stereotype, the great and key roles of the defensive midfielders get overlooked. Just like Cantona.

Understand what you are quoting.

It's not about stereotypes. The fact is that the game is all about creativity and goals. That is why players who score hattricks go home with the match balls. I am yet to see a player with the most defensive clearance or tackles go home with the match ball.

TheGoodJoe:
You said the role is reserved for less technical players. I pointed Yaya and Mikel. They are gifted with creative abilities but sacrificed those for the team. Even players like Wanyanma and Busquets have brilliant creative abilities. However, due to their high intelligence, understanding of the game and sacrificial spirits, they are ready to play for the team to make the team florish.

Those that look down on the role do not consider the other importance of the role. They might laugh when you say those guys are good and deserve praise because they lack understanding.

Just like the SlObi crew who laughed at Mikel until Hiddink explained Mikel's style they criticised and called slow was beautiful.

Perhaps you know more than Cantona who described this role as thus

(Eric Cantona once famously described the role of Didier Deschamp in the French national team as that of a ‘water-carrier’, the impish implication being that he toiled to win the ball and pass it on to more skillful players, such as Cantona himself, so they could weave their magic).


This is the stereotype about DMs. They simply win the ball and give to more talented teammates. That is why a DM will never win the Ballon d'Or.

Playing that role for years at Chelsea killed Mikel's creative game. You said it yourself some pages ago when we played Cameroun, perhaps for argument sake you want to drag this.

TheGoodJoe:
It seems you have not read the past comments about this topic. Get the point.

The role is underrated but very key because it takes a lot of hard work and brilliance to execute it. So trying to play down their abilities is just being part of those who lack the understanding of the challenge of the role.

That role is a make or break position of the team.

So Yaya Toure or Mikel playing there did not mean they lacked ability. It meant their importance and values were underrated. When given liberty like Keshi did with Mikel and Mancini/Pellegrini did with Yaya showed their abilities as Supernovae.

You haven't been reading what I have been saying either.

From the on set I have said Mikel spent too much time playing in that unfancied role as the water carrier of Chelsea. He was constrained from expressing himself and this affected his ratings hence, the divisive opinion about his legendary and world class status.

I haven't seen or read a non Nigerian player claiming Mikel is his role model. Most people who only saw him play for Chelsea will laugh you out of the room if you told them Mikel was skillful. Such was his role in Chelsea that he played like robot for them.

TheGoodJoe:
Did Yaya Toure not play the four role and did not look magnificent? When he got the liberty to show his stuff, he performed brilliantly. Does it mean playing there meant he lacked creative ability? When Keshi gave Mikel the license, he also flourished in the AFCON and was the supernova of the tournament.

It is not paper over cracks but your lack of understanding of the genius of the role.

How many African footballer of the year did Yaya Toure win when he played as a DM for Barcelona? How many did he win when he played further up tor the pitch?

If you can answer this question, then you might have a clue why playing as a DM is underwhelming for a technical player.