₦airaland Forum

opes:
Etebor on goal

Etebor scored? Or he's playing in goal?

Joebie:
You have to wake up to the reality tht millions of kids in Nigeria do not go to school. You cannot rely on our school system alone to produce the next Messi. This is unique to us. This is not England

You speak as if you can't find talented kids in school. Have you heard about the Principal's cup? Have you heard about shell cup? Do you know most of our cadet players in the past came through those competitions? Stark illiteracy won't get anyone to the top in professional sports in 2017, except you prefer to live in delusion.

TheGoodJoe:
Cole was on his way out. I do not understand why he is in the discussion. As for Gibbs, pure Arsenal hype. Time told who was the better player. Even as a left back, Bale made some extraordinary performances. Typical Wenger. Gibbs better than Bale.

Bale was liability at left back. Tottenham couldn't register a win in his first 24 games for the club as a left back! Harry Rednapp considered selling him to Birmingham at a point.
Seeing Bale's career turn around is nothing but miracle.

TheGoodJoe:
Was Denilson one of the star players of Sao Paolo? I can tell you Anderson was the best player in Gremio, followed by Lucas Leiva who joined Liverpool.

Denilson was not among. I watched the tournament and Denilson was not among the stars to remember.

He was 16 when he broke into the Sao Paolo main team and you're asking if he was one of their star players?

TheGoodJoe:
Which rating? What had he done before the U17 World Cup? I repeat. Ando was the phenom in Brazil before the U17. Not Denilson. In the tournament, he was not among. Even Celsinho who came in when Ando injured showed more promise. Which Kind of invisible best player was Denilson?

Denilson is the real definition of a street kid who football gave an escape, just the type you advocated for yesterday. I wonder how you could question the talent of a kid from such background who broke into the Sao palo Copa libertodores winners team at 17.
Brazil youth team captain from the U15's to U17. You're talking about a player with rising profile, why you will blame a club for looking at such a player is lost on me.

I had witnessed this at first bank a few years ago. This is not a new trick.

TheGoodJoe:

I said, he was not among in that U17. Players were far ahead of Denilson.

If only you knew how highly rated he was in Brazil.

TheGoodJoe:
Nobody will ever tell you Denilson was the best player of the Brazilian side. Anderson was already a phenomenon at Gremio. By miles better than Denilson. Anderson ended up as the best player of the U17 World Cup. Who was Denilson?

What position did Anderson play? As far as I can remember he played as a box to box midfielder while Denilson played as a DM. The box to box midfielder will certainly catch the eyes more.
Funny enough, you would have given Wenger a slack for signing Anderson because he never hit the heights expected. Having the benefit of hindsight have you at an advantage.
Just like I have when I call out Guardiola for signing Chygrisnky who had a solid campaign in the Europa league for Shaktar Donestk the previous season.

TheGoodJoe:

When I watched Mikel Obi in 2005 World Youth Championship final, I screamed, "Maradona (who was in the stadium) can you see how to play the ten role?"

When I watched Nuri Sahin few weeks after that game playing in the 2005 U17, I murmured," This Boy is better than Mikel."

Denilson was never in the class of players like Dos Santos and Sahin. Only Wenger would do things like that.

For he didn't make an impression, he couldn't have captained a team like Brazil to the world cup finals. You can't fault Arsenal scouts for giving him a look in.

TheGoodJoe:
Denilson was not as hot as other players in that U17. Typical Wenger not to go for Sahin and opting for Denilson. Not fielding Vela even after a brilliant game playing for Osasuna against Madrid.

The man get me tired.

Denilson wouldn't captain all the youth teams he played for if he wasn't highly rated. Its just like the case of Musa mohamed. You don't captain your house at inter house sports if you're not good. The best players usually captain their school in inter school competition, that's how the system works at that level.
If you played high school football you will understand what am saying.
The problem with Vela was being too lightweight for the Premiership. He just couldn't cope with the physical demands. He went on to flourish in a more technical league is not a surprise to me. There was this goal he scored for Arsenal after a 24 pass move, he finished off the passing move with a deliberate chip on the keeper. That's the kind of finness he had in his locker. Put him against agriculture teams, they will kick lumps out of him.

TheGoodJoe:
Apart from Wilshere, which if these names you listed had the clout of Luka Modric? None. I watched Denilson in U17 and he did not have that kind of clout. That was Dos Santos, Anderson, Vela and Nuri Sahin's U17. All these were rated ahead of Denilson. Nothing stopped Wenger from signing the Superior talent. Modric was already hot. There is no defense in this.

Denilson was highly rated at 17. As a matter of fact, he captained all the Brazil youth teams he played for from U15's to U17. You're saying all these because you have the benefit of hindsight. The Brazilian U17 side he captained played up to the finals of the U17 world cup,the same tournament Arsenal scouted Fabregas from a few years earlier.
Even Diaby was super highly rated in France. They believed in him so much that whenever he is fit, he's always called up to the national team and he walked straight into the French first 11. Hindsight, hindsight, hindsight

If you knew how highly rated chucks Aneke was. Some Arsenal die hard fans still belive he has not left the club. They think Arsenal have a buy back clause in his contract. Go read up about the exploits of Chucks Aneke, Benik Afobe, Frimpong, Henry Lansbury and Co. Afobe scored 40 goals in a season at a point.

TheGoodJoe:

I do not understand what you are saying. Denilson was lightweight. Did that stop Wenger from securing him? Wenger missed Modric big time. Wenger had other lightweight players, so the lightweight theory does not hold. He should have secured Modric as a youngster. Not long, the wonder player joined Tottenham and today, one of the best in the World. Bad business after monitoring Zagreb for a while.

Denilson actually joined Arsenal as a 17 yr old. He used to be a very promising youngster. Being captain of Brazil of U17 side tells you how highly rated he was. That should tell you buying young footballers does not guarantee anything. Even the coveyour belt that was the Arsenal academy had lots of promising young players who won the FA youth league. Players like Frimpong, Wilshere, Chucks Aneke, Jay Emma Thomas, Diaby, Benik Afobe etc.
Nobody could have foretold none of these guys could have hit the heights years later judging, from how promising they were in there formative years.

TheGoodJoe:
Please, it was not hidden that Modric was made for greatness. The reality is that, a lightweight Fabregas took the EPL by storm. What of Eriksen? Mata, Silva. Weight was not an issue. Many knew Modric was brilliant. There was an outcry for him. Just as the cry for Mandzukic after Eduardo's injury. Wenger is naturally slow in the market. That is not a debatable point. It is natural.

Oh so you know Fabregas was light weight and you wanted Wenger to sign another lightweight player to pair him in midfield with other lightweights like Hleb and Rosiscky. At this period, rugby teams like Bolton, Birmingham and Stoke tortured Arsenal with their agriculture football.
Wenger was scolded by pundits that he didn't go for big strong players like Christopher Samba and the likes. How could he have considered Modric? Its very easy when you have the benefit of hindsight to pass judgments.

TheGoodJoe:
I am telling you that Ndidi was a target Wenger missed. Just like Wanyama.

Since when did you become Arsenal's spokes man?

TheGoodJoe:
At that time, Arsenal fans, lots of them cried out that Wenger should secure Modric. He was young then and could understudy others. He was way better than Denilson and would have done better. Wenger missed a good chance then. Just as he keeps doing.

Fans are fans. They don't know the day to day workings of the club. Tottenham took a risk which paid off with Modric. At the time, Modric was too light weight and nobody believed he could survive the physicality of the Premiership just like a lot are doubting if Ebuehi can handle the ruggedity in the African terrain. Transfers of relatively unknown players are straight up gambling, you can get it right, just like it could equally go wrong in equal measure. That's the reality.

TheGoodJoe:
You and I know Guardiola will nail most of his targets. Even if the cost a lot, he will get them. That is why I am not calling out Guardiola.

Did Wenger tell you Ndidi was a target he missed?

TheGoodJoe:
That is why I call Arsene Wenger a Standing Fan and Lucozade coach. Ndidi cost less then $20 million and he still wants it cheaper.

STINGY COACH.

Why aren't you calling out Guardiola for neglecting Ndidi? You blamed Man city players age as the reason for their below par performance. Why aren't you attacking Guardiola for not buying Ndidi?

TheGoodJoe:
I doubt Simeone, Ancelotti and others would sign Eduardo and leave Modric at Zagreb. Who does that. He would have gotten Modric cheap then.

Oh please. Eduardo at the time was the highest goal scorer in Europe then at Zagreb. He scored about 35 goals in a season at the time. Eduardo was a fine talent who got kicked out of the game by the Birmingham defender.
At the time, Wenger had other priorities than a midfielder where he was already stocked with Fabregas. Rosiscky, Hleb. He needed a striker to pair up with Adebayor not another midfielder.

TheGoodJoe:

Because these other coaches go for players they believe will fit their system at all cost. Than Wenger who will tell you no quality in the market.

For Bleep Sake. Where was Wenger when Simeone secured Carasco who was brilliant against Arsenal playing for Monaco.

Wenger is not a check book manager and he's paying for it since Roman Abramovich changed the game and check book managers cherry picked talents and inflated the market. Wenger loves to promote from within and he's very loyal to his players.
He would rather promote Chuba Akpom next season than purchase Onyekuru.

TheGoodJoe:

My notion is simple. We can not shut the door on kids like Yahaya and Ramon Azeez because of their literacy level when they were young teens. These are special players. If they have the dedication and talent, they deserve their chances.

Dedication and talent is not just enough sometimes. Lack of basic education could be a major hindrance to their careers. An illiterate boy from Africa is unsellable. Football is more than just kicking the ball around.
You have to sign contracts, engage the media,fans and your team mates. How do you expect addidas and Nike to sign up an illiterate to represent them.
Kids must be made to understand football cannot be divorced from education. That is the hard truth.

TheGoodJoe:
Let Arsene Wenger STAND like STANDing fan and LOOKing like Lucozade until another club snaps Onyekuru. He already missed Ndidi. Etebo and Onyekuru are there for the taking.

STINGY COACH.

Arsene Wenger is not the only coach in the world. Why not mention Klop, Simione, Guardiola and Anceloti.

TheGoodJoe:
I prefer a no kid left behind policy. Find the most talented and Discipline within the U17 bracket.

You have to wake up and smell the coffee. Not every talented kid in the street will end up playing for Nigeria. Everybody cannot meet the standard. That's the gospel truth.

TheGoodJoe:
Why look at kids in school system when we have a more accurate measure using the MRI? Our open camp system in different parts of the Nation yielded impressive results. Coupled with the MRI screening to come up with a core U17 makes a fantastic model. No need changing it. We can maintain the model and continue our fight to beef our educational system.

Of course we have used the MRI to our advantage. I brought up the school system as a cheaper alternative to MRI also with my posts I tried to bring to life the fact that we have a documented system in place to check age cheating. We actually have records of birth and death rate in the country. The fact that we have over the years used sharp practices to usurp this system does not mean these tools are totally absent. That is my stand.

TheGoodJoe:
We have loads of children Hawking in day time during school hours. You do not need stats from NGO.

As long as you made the suggestion of cutting out kids like Yahaya and Ramon Azzez, it means you know that we have bright football geniuses who find it difficult to get educated. This has more to do with the state of education in the country.

We also have lots of kids running to hundreds of thousands on the street begging instead of schooling. If they are gifted with the ball and can make their lives better, let them play.

If we are serious about checkmating age cheat,am afraid we have to look at kids within the school system, the school system guarantees to a good degree verifiable personal data about individuals. Every talented kid in Nigeria is not a hawker.

Millions of kids in Nigeria are in school. The greater percentage of talented kids are found in various secondary schools in the country.

TheGoodJoe:
Education is free/cheap in most states but Hunger is real. Lots of Families can not afford to allow their kids go to school. Lots of kids are on the streets and Highway Hawking to put food on their tables. Some are in farms. Some in Markets.

We need to curb hunger and Poverty before talking of Children going to school. We have a lot of work to do in this country.

For now, Footie is another escape out of poverty. No need shutting the door on some bright ones.

I usually doubt this sort of statistics. Some of which are cooked up by NGO's to attract foreign grants. Truth is that child education in Nigeria is not as bad as being painted. I know it's totally a different kettle of fish up the Northern part of the country but where I come from, kids go to school. Even if some take to hawking as a means of survival but they do that after school.
The Streets are usually empty by 9 am. You won't see any child roaming the streets at school hour except durring holidays or if the kid called in sick.

Poverty is not an excuse not to have at least Junior secondary education except in the north which have its own peculiarities.

TheGoodJoe:
With the large number of Nigerians in abject poverty, adapting such solutions will help, but it will not nullify the problem. However, it will turn out catastrophic if we use book smart to screen out football geniuses. Football should guide financially challenged geniuses out of the claws of poverty.

Nobody is suggesting using booksmart to select players. You must not be a straight A student to play football. The criteria should be you must be in school. Let's not kid ourselves education from primary to Junior high is almost free in all the states acrostic country.

joseph1013:
The government is notoriously bad in keeping such records. We know it. Even crucial documents like records of the Nigerian Stock Exchange were being lost to rainfall, fire outbreak, and pure old age until they migrated to electronic record keeping.

You will be surprised how well they keep school education records.

TheGoodJoe:
The World may have gone way beyond that level. Not Nigeria. You can not blame a genius for being poor in a terrible environment.

We have children who are talented, trapped in warring regions like Sambisa. We have geniuses who resorted to trade to help their families have foods in their bellies.

We can not expect a country where majority live in poverty to have sufficient money to train their kids. Does it mean we should punish these geniuses from having better lives? Does it mean if a kid in the IDP.camp, who has never heard a word of English before but has the skills of Okocha does not deserve a chance to make it with his talent?

I think the best football has to offer should go to kids with the most talent and discipline. No other factor should stop that.

Of course there are special cases and such special cases deserve a different treatment. Hoedown, it doesn't stop us from operating with a laid down standard.

The point you raised is one of the reasons I believe we have no football academies in Nigeria. What we have are youth training clubs. Take for instance the template set by France. The clairfoentain French academy blueprint is to have talented youngsters admitted into their academy. The academy is run like a boarding school. These youngsters attend school in the morning and train in the evening. All the great French players like Anelka, Henry, Trazeguet, Greizman, etc and even lately Mbappe graduated from this set up.
Football and education cannot be divorced from each other. Because we live in a country where everything goes doesn't mean we must not follow a laid down standard. I expect a player in the national U17 team to be a senior high school student or a fresh high school graduate.

TheGoodJoe:

I do not think we should hinge on judging footballers' intelligence based on their understanding of grammar. A good example is Musa Yahaya who was an absolute genius on the field but could not speak English. Football is a way out of those in abject poverty. So I agree with the school cert point but I think we should not hinge on it. For now, I will still support the MRI as the U17 Criteria. We should protect it.

I believe the world have gone way past the level where illiterates (sorry to use the word) go on to have a successful careers. If Musa Yahaya cannot read, how does he manage to sign contracts? Abi he doesn't read what he signs?
We must structure our football round education. That's just the way to go.

joseph1013:
Interestingly, the few people I know who went to collect their primary school certificates went many years later after finishing tertiary education. You know what they did? They were told to fill a form with details like date of birth, year of resumption, year of graduation, etc. The school then typed the details given into a template.

How do you trust that kind of certificate as a good measure of the age of a person? Abeg, we know how things are run in this country. What records do we keep?

What they were issued was not first school leaving certificate. First school leaving certificate come directly from the state education board.
Date of birth and some other data you mentioned is not captured in the first school leaving certificate.

joseph1013:
Till now, I have not collected my primary school certificate. I don't know how many people on this thread have their primary school certificates, but if my experience is a common one, how can we use that way to kill this rat?

Probably you haven't had a cause to go retrieve your school cert. When you do have a cause, nobody will tell you to run back to your primary school headmistress or state education board to retrieve the doc.

As a prerequisite to be in camp, players must be made to come with the afformentioned documents just like they came with their clothings and soccer boots.

Youth football goes hand in hand with education. A player shouldn't be worthy of consideration if he uses lack of education as the reason he cannot provide his school papers. One thing should be clear, because as we play to win football matches at the cadet level, we also showcase the quality our education. Football and education are like twins and rightly so.

I recall with shame when Ramon Azzez was asked to read the FIFA fair play rules from a piece of paper as a duty of being captain. The young man struggled to read four sentences. It was a huge national disgrace if you ask me. It shows the young man was sparsely educated. It wasn't a good advertisement for Nigeria irrespective of the fact that it was a football tournament and not an inter school debate.

joseph1013:

1. Paper documents: How long can paper documents last? In Nigeria where we have frequent random fire outbreaks? Where people carelessly store paper files? Cmon... Electronic storage of documents as seen in saner climes, and good corporate management of such records are ways to avoid these preventable hazards.

2. Do you have any idea the number of people from 2000 downwards that were not born in accredited healthcare facilities? A sizeable percentage of people were even midwifed in 'traditional' ways.

3. Catholicism is just one arm of the Church. Not every Nigerian is a Christian. Not every Christian is a Catholic.

Unless we want to sidestep the truth, we all know the average Nigerian is not totally misguided when they doubt the age of our footballers, particularly those that didn't go through the MRI scans. A problem accepted is half-solved.

That is why I added the caveat in my last paragraph that anyone who cannot provide such verifiable documents should come with their first school leaving certificate.
We all know the age range which a kid is expected to graduate from primary school. You can't claim U17 while your first school leaving certificate says you graduated from primary school in 2005.
Anyone who cannot provide the aforementioned certificates should be disqualified from attending screenings. There are many ways to kill a rat.