₦airaland Forum

Bidam: No scripture indicates that tithes was abolished. Infact the christian is even called to a more selfless sacrifice higher than that of the payments of tithes.This is the genesis of the argument and what necessitated you to open a thread that you were not inspired to open in the first place.

You, my friend keep saying no scripture indicates tithe was abolished but you have been shown many scriptures but you remain adamant to the truth. There was tithe\tithing before the law and during the law. The tithe\tithing during the law was given to the levites officiating under the levitical priesthood. If these levitical priesthood was abolished, unto whom are you taking the tithe to? I have replied you in the other thread based on the question I asked you. You are employed in an organization and your employment terminated, do you still receive wages from that employer? Does God change the Levitical priesthood to ministry gift to continue the collection of tithe? If God did, show scriptures.

Bidam: Saints should give :
(1) proportionate to income, (2) systematically, (3) liberally, (4) as they purpose in their heart, and (5) cheerfully (Acts 11:29; I Cor 16:1-3; II Cor 8:12; 9:7). God loves cheerful givers. If saints give liberally, they will be blessed liberally (II Cor 9:6). A tithe should be the minimum, since it was the minimum before and during the Law.

You, my friend have been saying the law in written in our heart. I like to borrow the words of Zikky - Let the heart determine the giving not a mandatory 10% of monthly income. The truth I'm trying to explain is, the Old is completely different from the New...in everything and it's not a continuation, one for another.

For instance, Malachi that wasn't written to the church but to the priest says, bring tithe SO THAT GOD WILL THEN OPEN WINDOWS OF HEAVEN AND POUR YOU BLESSINGS. That's not the case with the New Covenant. Under the Old, you must do something in order to attract blessings but under the New, we are blessed BECAUSE OF WHAT CHRIST DID. What the law could not do, grace and truth did. So many who tithe are doing so because Malachi say in doing that, God will open the windows of heaven BUT they have no revelation of what Christ had done that by the finished works of Christ, HEAVEN IS ALREADY AND PERPETUALLY opened to believers and we have access to God because of Christ's finished works. Hebrews 10:19; Ephesians 3:12; 2:18 and Romans 5:2.

Bidam: Even the Apostle Paul did appeal to the Law of Moses for principles of financial giving, which shows the remaining validity of the principles pertaining to giving (I Cor 9:8-9; II Cor 9:9; I Tim 5:18).

This is a topic for another day and time. Paul referencing the law doesn't enforce the practice of the law on believers under the New Covenant. Anything you see such from Apostle Paul, you must find the New Testament revelation of what he was referencing. We shall deal with that another time.

Bidam: The difference was the shed blood for remissions of sins and gentiles who were en grafted into the common wealth of Israel.The Abrahamic covenant is everlasting and still applies whether you believe it or not.

I never taught that the covenant with Abraham was null and void. Paul explained that the covenant which was before the law cannot be cancelled else, God will be breaking his covenant\promise. The question is, is tithe\tithing part of this covenant which was BEFORE the law?

Bidam: My point is what Paul describes in romans when he said to them "pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises” (Rom. 9:4). “Pertain” in the original Greek is in the present (continuous action) tense. Paul says God presently has a long-range agenda and investment in the Jews that He is going to see fulfilled.

To Israel pertaineth the adoption...the covenant, being the first and old covenant which was referred to in Hebrews. The giving of the law, being reference to the law as the national constitution of Israel. God never gave other nations the law he gave to Israel. When Hebrews says:

By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete. What does that mean? It's a past tense, what is already done because the new has come to wipe away the first (old).

and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

This means, what was MADE obsolete is outdatED (past tense). Will soon disappear means it will fade away as time goes on because it's already outdatED. It's like when Nairaland changed from old version into the new, people are used to the old and a lot of people complained as the new was introduced but as time goes on, they embraced this new version and the old soon disappear with time.

Bidam: Agreed both Jews and gentiles,but it was never stated that tithing was abolished.Even the council in Jerusalem in Acts 15 clearly spelt what the gentiles are to adhere to.Read verse 21 and be liberated.

Again, you do err my friend. If tithing was not abolished, where does it stay within the law? I come back to my question to you earlier, if you employed in a place with full wages and benefits and your employment terminated, do you still receive salary\wages from the employer that terminated you employment? I hope you know what's buried in this question for you right?

The Levites own one of the three kinds of tithe and when the Levites and their offices was abolished, does the Levites still continue to receive tithes? As they were abolished, God did not replace them with the ministry gift -pastors, evangelist etc to continue to collect such tithe. That's why I stand by a consistent truth the New Covenant is different from the Old and not a continuation to the old. If you find any scripture(s) where God replaced the Levites with the ministry gifts, kindly show them to us.

Bidam: . You do err again here.I am not talking about Jesus Christ who is evidently a Jew even He himself confessed that in MATTHEW 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." (NKJV) .

The question is how are the gentiles able to partake of what clearly is not theirs to start with.

I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel is BEFORE the finished works. The death of the testator enforced the NEW COVENANT and his blood was shed for MANY who believes. The gentiles, because of the finished works that CHANGED everything, was engrafted into the new covenant.

New American Standard Bible
Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision " by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands--remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:11-16

King James Bible
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matthew 26:28

That's the new covenant my friend, that's the revelation of the finished works. In Matthew to John, the testator was only writing his will that will take effect after his death. In the revelation of the finished works, we know\understand the 'worth & value' of what's left and\or done for us as inheritance.

Bidam: I don't understand your replacement theology here, you re preaching another different christ and that is what i am telling you here.The Book of Hebrews was probably written by Paul to Jewish Christians in Jerusalem.

Yes, a replacement theology in deed. The New covenant is completely different from the Old, not a continuation.

Bidam: Paul does not say the old covenant has been abolished. Instead, he says it is in the process of decay and is ready to vanish (Heb. 8:13).

New International Version
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. Hebrews 8:13

Bidam: So i find it an error in your teachings when you pick Hebrews out of context to explain Galatians also out of context.In contrast to Hebrews, Galatians was written not primarily to Jews but to the Gentile saints of Galatia. It says the old Abrahamic covenant produced Jesus, the singular “seed” of Abraham (Gal. 3:16).Jesus brought salvation to the Gentiles. But such was not a “new covenant” to Gentiles because, as “wild branches,” we Gentiles never had a covenant in the first place.

Which error is in my teachings? That I don't back them up with scriptures? The blood of Christ which enforced the new covenant was shed for MANY who believes at his death. What more you want to hear?

Bidam: I don change my mind sef.This night na me and you.Let me see whether you have a sound theology.

Question 1.The bolded in red debunks your statement that the new covenant pertains to us."The day is coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah" Is the house of Israel and the house of judah a gentile?

First, let's examine the Scriptures to see who God chose as His own special people:

EXODUS 19:3 And Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: 4 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself. 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. 6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel." (NKJV)

So you can see that the house of Jacob and house of Israel God is referring to here is not even the gentiles to start with.ERROR number 1.

You, my friend do err not knowing the scriptures. The house of Judah is the covenant that will be initiated by Christ being from JUDAH. Therefore, you have house of ISRAEL and the house of JUDAH.

For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. Hebrews 7:14

Christ fulfilled this covenant coming from the house of Judah, as the mediator of the New Covenant by his blood. If you like, make you dey test my sound theology. Theology ko, Theophillus ni.

Because of Christ's death, burial and resurrection, many thing changed as a result of His finished work and these are the revelation revealed to the Apostles, especially Paul - it was the revelation of the finished works and that is what the New Covenant is all about:

1. We are a new creature and were given a new nature of Christ and in Christ - Colosians 1: 13; 2 Corinthians 5:17.

2. For by one offering he has perfected forever them that are sanctified - Hebrews 10:14.

3. We are adopted - Romans 8:15; Gal.4:5

4. We are regenerated Titus 3:5

5. We were put in the body of Christ - 1 Cor. 12:13, Rom.6:1-10.

6. We were indwelt by the Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16, 6:19.

7. We were sealed till the day he comes for us - 2 Cor.1:22; Ephesians 1:3-14, 4:30.

8. We were empowered for service Ephesians 5:18.

9. We have been delivered from the kingdom of darkness into light - Col.1:13; Heb.2:14-15. It is our inheritance. Many preachers teach deliverance for Christians but Christ had already delivered us!

10. We have been blessed with all spiritual blessings - Ephesians 1:3. Many are trying to DO SOMETHING e.g pay tithe so that windows of heaven can be opened to them, but by Christ's finished works, believers are already blessed. We give because we're already blessed as a result of the finished works not because we want to be bless.

11. His death was a propitiation. This means the wrath of God was satisfied. God the father poured out his anger and punishment against sin on his son - Romans 3:25

12. We were justified - Romans 5:9

13. We were made righteous and righteousness of God - 2 Corinthians 5:21. The one who had been MADE righteous shall only live by FAITH - Romans 1:17; 3:22.

14. We have been REDEEMED from the curses of the law and Christ was MADE A CURSE for us - Galatians 3:13. Those who preach or teach that Christians are under a curse simply do not understand the finished works and the better covenant. There's no curse for a new covenant believers who are in Christ, Christ had been MADE A CURSE for you and redeemED you from the curses of the law.

15. We were crucified with Christ (Gal.2:20) When he died the law died with him and so did we, Colossians 2:20-21. We were buried with him, Romans 6:4. We were made alive with him by his resurrection, Ephesians 2:5, Col.3:1. We were made joint heirs with Christ and will be glorified with him, Romans 8:17. His blood purchased us Romans 3:25; Ephesians 1:7.

The End

Many Christians are trying to practice the Old covenant along with the new not realizing the Old is null and void, Heb. 8:7-13. The Old covenant was between God and Israel alone but the New is between God and the church enforced by the blood of Christ. What the Old covenant couldn't accomplish is what Christ did and so, we refer to it as a better and finished works of Christ.

The Old Covenant is a revelation of God in the righteous requirement and standard of the law. Which was a conditional covenant. That is, one must do something for God to do another thing. The New Covenant is the revelation of God (from Christ to Apostle Paul and other Apostles) in the righteous Son who empowers those who believe and receive it to become adopted children of God was an unconditional covenant. The purpose of this new covenant is to do what the Old Covenant could not. The New Covenant is based on the shed blood which signed and sealed the covenant under the Mosaic covenant the shed blood of animals could only cover sins temporarily (Heb.8:27).

And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. Mark 14:24

The new covenant is NOT between God (through Christ) Israel alone but for MANY who believes. However, Christ as the mediator of this new covenant had to die in order to enforce the New Covenant and his death CHANGED EVERYTHING because of the finished works and this new covenant is operated by Grace. Hebrews 9:15-16.

to be continue . . .

I decided to start this teaching out of no time because there're many on this forum that teaches that the New Covenant is a continuation of the Old Covenant. There's no where the scripture teaches the New is a continuation of Old but on the contrary, the New is different from the Old. What we have today are Christians trying to study the Old covenant, of which they don't belong to while they have a new and better covenant in\through Christ.

Let me first say this, without studying the Old covenant, one might not understand the new but that doesn't mean the old is what we are under or covenant we (Christians) should bind ourselves to or practice for our application. We have a better covenant in\through Christ's finished works and the Cross of Christ is the great divider of the Old and New Covenant.

But when God found fault with the people, he said: "The day is coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. This covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and led them out of the land of Egypt. They did not remain faithful to my covenant, so I turned my back on them, says the LORD. Hebrews 8:8-9

The above ^ scripture confirms to us that the promised and fulfilled New Covenant is NOT like the Old and therefore is NOT a continuation but different covenant. When God was ready to fulfill his words, Christ came to establish this new covenant by his death and shedding of blood.

to be continue . . .

Zikkyy: Says who? there is no scripture that supports the teaching that says there must be tithing as long as there's is a high priest. If you are unable to provide supporting scripture people will continue to see you as a fraud.

I don't have problem with the amount you give to your pastor or what you decide to call the giving/paying. That's your wahala. We have a problem when you decide to teach that it is a commandment from God and justify it using you Malachi or Mathew 23. it is also wrong of you (and every other teacher) to teach that people should give 10% of their income as tithe to the church/pastor. It is no longer freewill giving. If God's law is now written on the heart, let the heart decide the giving. we no longer live by the law written on stone.

That's the word of truth right there!

Bidam: You don't know me jare..Go siddon

And who told you I don't know you? The fact I haven't seen you in person doesn't mean I can't tell who you are with different characters and handles

Bidam: You are ignorant.The old covenant explained what the new covenant was all about.Do you agree and believe that Christ was concealed in the OT?

Who is talking about whether Christ was concealed in the OT or not? I'm talking about the Old covenant is DIFFERENT from the new and NOT a CONTINUATION to the Old. What is it you don't understand about that?

Bidam: oK..lemme go straight to the point since you really wanna know.

No where in my writing did i say tithing was compulsory.Salvation is not compulsory but it's there in the bible.You reap what you sow actually.Even if the New Testament does not require a tithe,does it mean you don't use the O.T. principle to train your children? The NT does not mention corporal punishment,Remember?

The NT does not mention saving money, but you do so from Solomon (Pr 6:8; 30:25). It does not mention many godly rules or principles, which may be assumed from the O.T.And that was why i tried my very best explaining the covenants to you guys.

You have been studying another man's covenant and so, you don't understand your own better covenant.

Bidam: Read Niv to get my point. Only together can we be perfected. My point is One love,one faith,one baptism,There is no difference between a jew and a gentile.It is the same Lord.Even Moses regarded disgrace for Christ of far greater value Don't forget Christ has not even come on the scene.

You always going in circles saying nothing!

Joagbaje: It's the other way round o. Without us they can't be perfect .

Hebrews 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

No mind that Bidam-natu...lolz.

Great article @ Bidam but let it begin with you! You know what I'm talking about right? Simplicity of the gospel.

Bidam: And still without them we can't be perfected.That's why the bible called them witnesses,how do you explain that?

You err not knowing the scriptures. My perfection is not based on them but on what Christ did. Stop diverting the topic please! Do you mind answering my question now?

Bidam: Na wayo man you be have you forgotten my queshion about the cloud of witnesses?
Are they going to separate us and them in heaven just because we operate in the new covenant and they in the old covenant? You re yet to answer me.That best gives you away because you re preaching a different Christ and a different God here.

And what do they have to do with tithe? They witness that couldn't receive the promise. How about that?

Bidam: Good.unlike goshen who feels he knows all and refused to answer my questions atleast you did based on your understanding.Atleast i learnt from zikky that tithe was never 10%.

So go back and study more before you open a thread on tithing that you know nothing about.Thanks.

And you answered my question?

Joagbaje: Tithing existed before isreal exited, it existed before the law existed. Tithing was of faith. Abraham is our father of faith. If you are follower of Abraham's faith ,then you ought to tithe.

The tithe that existed before the law, was it a COMMANDED tithe? Was items of tithe before the law acceptable as tithe items under the law? When Hebrews 7 nullified the levitical priesthood, does the tithe still remain?

Joagbaje: They did.it was life for them

Can you show us where the early church paid tithe?

Bidam: Ok the law has changed. What is the new law

Is the new law adultery,fornication,lawlessness,immoral behaviour and conduct

see how you dey shoot yourself for leg abi?

You rather should tell us if tithe was included in the new law.

Bidam: And i repeat it is still an illogical question.Let's follow what you even asked Joabaje(i believe he will answer you accurately that's why i did not bother). Jesus came to interpret the intent of the law.Take the case of the woman caught in adultery,if Jesus was only addressing the pharisees concerning the law why did he not tell them to stone her to death?
When did Sadducee came with their question on resurrection what did Jesus tell them? Is that teaching only applicable to the pharisees?

When the pharisees came also the issue of handing a divorce according to mosaic law and Jesus told them from the beginning it was not so.Are you telling us that teaching is only applicable to only the pharisee?

You need to rightly divide the word of truth and not pick one also and leave the other here.What is good for the goose is also good for the gander.

Joagbaje: It doesn't make sense. Was tithing only meant for Pharisees? Or worshippers of God?

Joagbaje: They were isrealite, and he encouraged the tithing , he only rebuked the extremes of the Pharisees ,by their neglect of other values

The question is, does the church of Christ, the Apostles or disciples of Christ REPLACE scribes and pharisees IN THE CONTEXT of that verse?

Bidam: No need to change what i said oga. I was inspired to write what i wrote and with conviction from the Holy Spirit.If you read your bible with the Help of the Holy Spirit(The revealer of secrets),you won't be confused.

You were inspired to say the law has changed but you are not inspired to accept or believe tithe is part of the law that changed?

Smh!

Bidam: The question you ask is not relevant to spiritual truths and principles.What you should have asked me is since Christ was not fully made manifest in the OT( since the fulfillment of the new covenant was death by His sinless blood so everyone can have access to the Father.)

How come Abraham,Isaac,Jacob,Rahab,moses,joseph,Barak,David,Samuel, not to mention funny enough samson are mentioned as cloud of witnesses.Are you saying these guys did not make heaven?

First, I'm establishing from the word, the new covenant is NOT a CONTINUATION of the old of which tithe was part of the old. You can't pick tithe alone and say that's what remains.

2. I can ask you natural questions to convey spiritual truth like Jesus did on parables and Paul also did. So my question is relevant. Perhaps you already know what's buried in that question. Can you please answer the question please:

Joagbaje: Really? if that's the case I will show you where Jesus endorsed tithing too.

Luke 11:42
"But woe to you Pharisees! For though you are careful to tithe even the smallest part of your income, you completely forget about justice and the love of God. You should tithe, yes, but you should not leave these other things undone. NLT


He had every opportunity to condemn it as he condemned the observation of sabbath but rather he endorsed it.

Who were the people tithing in the above verse? Christ's disciples or the Apostles?

If you emphasizing "you should tithe" of that context, you must also leave it to those it was spoken to - scribes and pharisees.

It's an insult to Christ and the blood to replace the church or disciples or apostles in that context.

Zikkyy: Finally. Bidam agrees that there was a change of law

Watch out, he will still twist what he said by himself.

Bidam: You still do not get the point of who God is.God is Love,through out genesis to revelations His covenants is that of love.He practically performed miraculous signs and wonders through Moses by parting the red sea and feeding the Israelites in the wilderness.This is the Loving father that we have.They were baptized into Moses( a type of christ),they drank and ate spiritual food and drink(Christ). Yet God was not pleased with them.Why? They violated His covenant.And that was why i said the problem is always with Man(the people) never with God.

Covenant is simply an agreement between two parties,in this case God simply requires simple obedience,since the Holy Spirit is not yet poured out He gave the Law to Moses to instruct his people.The law was a school master until perfection will come.The people still could not enter in the rest God has ordained for them because of unbelief.

The new covenant( flesh and blood of Christ which is also spiritual just like Moses)was given before(even the night Jesus was betrayed) after the death,resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ.It is far superior than the earthly tabernacle that Moses built which David preserved.

We still have so many lessons to learn from the OT.That was why when you say the OT books should be discarded i laff because you know nothing.

Moses did not take those stiffnecked people into the promise land but Joshua did.
Saul(the first king of Israel)became king not by merit but grace(just like we are kings and priest unto God not by merit but Grace)what did you think disqualified him in the sight of God?
He lacked the character and obedience to lead Israel. hence God rejected him and eventually killed him when he consulted mediums instead of God.

As far as i am concerned David was a man after God's heart who we should emulate from.He did what God wanted.We have to strip ourselves of all these Saul mentalities and take on the davidic spirit(that's the right kind of spirit). It is not about churches,pastors,denominations,doctrines etc.But it is about the heavenly kingdom of God called the zion city or Jerusalem from above.

Until you come to the realization of this understanding of spiritual truths, you will keep operating in the errors and traditions of men.

God is looking for a people who will not be forced to do His will or counsel as of OLD,and that is why Jesus says many are the called but few are chosen.whether you tithe or you don't tithe is irrelevant to God because the Lord knows who are his.The Holy spirit is poured out as a wine to judge the hearts of believers(He said he will inscribe his laws in our heart).

Since Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant,the laws we are to obey funny enough are even higher than the laws of Old.(a case is Ananias an Sapphira)The truth is Goshen i will not trample the son of God underfoot and treat the blood of the covenant that sanctify me as unholy.I will never insult the spirit of grace.And that is why Galatians 2 :20 will be my watchword till Christ returns.

Unfortunately, you have stayed so long on this mountain (forum) but you have learnt absolutely nothing. The new covenant is NOT a CONTINUATION of the old. It's clearly different and the cross of Christ IS THE GREAT DIVIDER.

Lemme ask you a question, if you employed in an organization and you have full wages and benefits, will you continue to get wages and full benefits when your employment is terminated?

^
Well done my brother. Tithe and tithing as we understand from the book of Hebrews 7 had ended, null & void and is a religious fraud today as per your OP. Except any man will prove that God had changed the Levites tribe into Pastors or the ministry gifts to continue collecting tithe, such person too is a THIEF!

Bidam: A big ignorance from someone who doesn't know What the entire book of hebrews is talking about.God never found fault with His covenant but the people.

And so, the covenant (of which tithe was part of\included) WAS NOT ABOLISHED? Do you know there are THREE covenants of ages in the word? Which and which was abolished and which remaineth?