₦airaland Forum

festacman:
Look, every human being has innate free will to believe in God or not, having been made aware about of His existence. However, like in every acts of loyalty and faithfulness, reward and benefits await anyone who believes, obeys and loves God.

It is important to say that God the creator gains nothing by trying to prove Himself to his creature. Every creature gains tremendously by aligning with his creator and His purpose and plan. The creator is supremely superior to the creature because the creature derives his being, faculties and capacities from the creator. Of course the creature is grossly limited and inferior to the creator otherwise the creature questions the authority of the creator.

Let me also say that no one who seeks proof of God's existence can achieve his goal by having closed mind, negative inquisitiveness and a set cast-in-stone expectations. A lot of things go on in the environment that reinforces the existence of God .No doubt.

If you are sure of the bolded,give one instance

P.s I assume you are a christian so the God you are referring to here is YHWH,correct me if I am wrong

festacman:
Test of reasoning? Human physical reasoning can never decipher the proof of something spiritual FULLY or CLEARLY in the way you desire it. Open-minded and introspective inquisitiveness will decipher slightest evidence of proofs from the surrounding nature. Closed-minded inquisitiveness with set of iron-cast expectations will NEVER decipher even the clearest of such proofs. You appear to me to be more of the latter than former.

Forget this long talk,provide the proof you have but be rest assured that it would be OBJECTIVELY analysed,your are no Albert Einstein and even if you were, when it comes to metaphysical issues I don't take anyones word for it,if you are saying that God(your own description ! )exists,provide the evidence,forget about how I would interprete it

sacx:
Understand that humans are no ordinary beings and not comparable to other living things. Also understand that humans were created with the capacity of becoming Gods themselves. No other created being has that capacity.

Humans were designed to embody life in themselves and transmuting this live to others. They were designed to become creators in same order as God. This is the truth. Death is not our testimony.

Of course we are no ordinary beings,that is why a microscopic thing such as a virus the least level of classification of a living thing can obliterate the entire human race

Oga the only thing that makes us stand out is the level of our brain development, but apparently it seems some of us still reason like lower animals

I once read a woman, I think Vanna Bonta RIP, is her name, who said:
"The body knows no pain, not like the soul. At least a nerve has limits, a body part a name. But the soul... the soul... There is no bandage ..." so the fact of the matter, is that pain can be felt with or without physical impulses or mechanisms to convey the pain message because pain originally is an image of something else not physical or be felt with physical mechanisms

I guess the answer is not in your bible,hence you resort to quoting human philosophy,@ the bolded is false,pain can not be felt without the nervous system being involved and I used an anaesthetic to demonstrate that,u have not presented even one mechanism and that is the problem I wish to point out,you christians don't have any explanation to anything all you have is your belief and even when an explanation is brought forth you would not waste time to dispute it if it negates ur belief

Why do you find it hard believing that the Almighty who creates the mechanism behind pain cant also make you feel pain without that mechanism?

make no mistake,I am not asking you not to believe what you choose,belief is very easy its not the problem here,some other people believe that we reincarnate into other forms of life when we die,anyone can believe whatever they like,what I am asking for is a logical explanation, its either you have one or you don't

Let's not forget that what we can possibly explain is the physical mechanism of pain,but not the feeling itself.This also includes our feelings of emotions- happiness,love,hate,fear,hunger,our feeling of self...you name it- All this transcends a physical explanation.

I agree that "feelings" may not be vividly explainable since they are intangible but there are mechanisms responsible for them and I want to find out the ones responsible for the "feelings" a spirit/soul has

jesusjnr:
Haba na Mich!

I know say her spiritual nonentity don provoke you wella, but show them say the diff is clear via your response.

For the likes of Zither, anas09 et al are not just the reasons many are abandoning their belief in God, but also responsible for the extent to which the satanists felt at home in Nairaland prior to my arrival.

For the weapons they possess are so toothless and savorless in Satan's respect, that even when they speak, Satan also says, amen.

In their respect is it already proven true that a true Jesus disciple is better than a wicked/righteous christian, for while Satan can withstand whatever onslaught such ones pose, when he sees a Jesus disciple as myself, boy, he just has no other choice but to flee.

I have been quoting their denouncing statements made against me, so that it would be engraved in stone, and hence a permanent reminder of what they said against me, when they get to know the truth about me.

Nothing had even happened yet and anas09 who hitherto called me a disguised atheist, had tried to come through the back door to make amends when she saw a post of mine.

But I told her off because if she's going to ever get to roll with, it has to be through the front door, and when it's clear to me that she has repented from her wicked ways.

For it's only then that she has a chance, as she stands in my sight as a wicked christian, and hence she has absolutely not a chance in hell for me to want to do much with her, except she repents.

Don't worry about such unrelative unknowns as far as the spiritual world goes, for what's important is that heaven has borne record of your decision, so those on Earth have no choice but to say amen, otherwise they would be O.T.O.

You know how far Mich, but let me also make my congratulations public.

#WelcomebackhomeMichellekabod1

Hahn was right, there is a possibility...... Let me no just talk

jesusjnr:
Yes I agree with you but only in your respect, but not that of the spiritually sterile Zither, for such impotency of her likes only merit my inattention.

So damn the waste of spiritual space and talk to me about something serious, as converting your fake conversion to God into a real one.

For you know the michellekabod1 conversion story is one sealed in heaven, and in God's sight, so you can do the same, and ignore those workers of iniquity and sheep in wolves clothing, who are posing as the otherwise.

So that if they do not repent and turn from their wicked ways, while they who condemned the repentance of others as such, appear before Jesus, they would be shocked to find out that while Jesus welcomes such ones, He would say to them that He does not know them, hence that they should depart from Him all them workers of iniquity.

So over to you Hermes019.

Spot on
I guess on judgment day,some of u christians would be surprised to see me joining u guyz in heaven

@Ihedinobi3,Mutteylaff I would have loved to address what each of u said specifically but I'm afraid we would end up arguing on transient stuff and the question I would remain unanswered
Let's define Pain Physiologically

Pain is the response from the body,orchestrated by the nervous system when the "pain centres" in the brain are sensitized

Following this definition we can see that pain is a function of the nervous system,pain can not be felt without the nervous system being present.
If the spirit/soul whichever of them that is cast in hell does not possess the nervous system then how can pain occur

I know that you believe that the spirit/soul feels pain,my question is how ?
Its just like saying that a living thing can "see" without possessing the eyes

The answer I want to get is the process/mechanism that would enable a supposed being feel pain if the mechanism/process that we know of is absent ?

karlboss:
Death is the best invention of life. It clears the old for the new. Steve Jobs

I think the op and other Christians and Muslims always mix up life after death with heaven and hell. They have this very crazy belief that once there is life after death there must be heaven and hell. I don't think that anyone would argue about life after death but the argument is always heaven and hell.

You can choose what you want to believe but that doesn't change anything,it is better to be humble,learn and accept the universe the way it is,if you know how vast the universe is then u would understand that the human race is sub microscopic, when a human being dies it decays,that is the end

highcollide:
There are so many inconsistencies on the God concept. But I'll like to say that giving proofs for God's existence doesn't mean he exists or not. Logic is malleable and often inconsistent. You can give a logical proof for a statement and still give a logical proof for its negation. Immanuel kant showed this. In abstracts concepts like God, nothing, good etc, logical reasoning is bound to fail.

There are thousands of ontological proofs for God's existence, still we still express doubt. Nothings changed.

Personally, I believe God exists from my life experience. I don't bother about people's stance on the existence of God. Whether they believe or not, it's a personal decision.

Also, I also believe the Bible. That atheists are fools for relying on logic to prove something that is assumed to be beyond their reasoning. Using their limited knowledge to make conclusions on a concept assumed to possess infinite knowledge. There will be no greater foolishness than this.

Define God
Describe his features
Tell me how u discovered them

Well, my position is the same as that of the Bible. Spirits are not physical and thus does not possess a nervous system but they do feel fear and other emotions. How that is so is not explained in the Bible.

So does that mean one can't imagine or relate to what it feels like for one's spirit to feel pain ?

It includes a material body, yes, but not the same one that we have right now. After death, every human spirit is clothed in an interim body about which we know very little as well. At the Resurrection whether of believers or of unbelievers, a new body is given to each person which is suited to their spiritual status. Believers get a new material body which is perfectly suited to their blessed status; unbelievers get a material body as well which is perfectly suited to their cursed status.

Bible source

Zither:
Nothing but a well-concocted fabrication in the guise of confession. The sarcastic tone of your thread title, the fact that you have only provided an incomplete confession of your conversion, Seun's observation, and your deliberate silence to any question regarding the circumstances that prompted your change of belief all lead down to one road — your confession is spurious and is intended to make mockery of the Christian faith. You have creatively and cunningly devised a method to portray Christians as gullible people that will fall for any lie that agrees with their superstitious beliefs of conversion and eternity by playing the script of an atheist who was suddenly converted to Christianity. Bravo, Bravo. You can drop the act now that the curtain has dropped. Your performance is deserving of 5 stars.

Jesusjnr your attention is needed

festacman:
God cannot show Himself to you because He is supreme spirit who has no bodily form unlike the human beings He created by putting their spirits into bodies to enable them exist physically to accomplish His purposes and plans. If physical man absolutely lacks the capacity to physically see lower spirits then it is near impossIble to see God the supreme and holiest Spirit. Spirit is superior to the body. Many spiritually gifted people as well as those who have been able to dominate their bodies in favour of meeting spirits have interesting experiences about spiritual realm.

The nearest illustration I can come up with, for now, is this. A human being creates intelligent gadgets. The level of intelligence and perceptual ability the gadgets have is subject to the purpose for which the maker intended. In the world of such gadgets, as they interact they will argue, like you are doing, why their maker cannot come in gadgetry form to prove that he made them.

It is not even necessary for "God" to appear before anyone,what we require is just proof,any kind of proof as long as it can survive the test of reasoning.

Goodlyhrt:
Through the wonderment of nature

Ok,so how did u determine what God is exactly,I mean his features and the rest ?

And if I may ask,are natural disasters also part of this wonderment ?

DeOTR:
Well, we can only take the parable for what it is, a parable, and not literally.
Remember that Lazarus was carried bodily to heaven, while the rich was buried in his grave?
How can they ever communicate in such circumstance?
Just as Abel's blood crying from the ground can not be taken literally, this one should not be.
The rich man, in my opinion, is a symbolic representation of Jews (with spiritual wealth), while the poor Lazarus is the gentiles (being referred to as dogs by the Jews).
While the Jews rejected the message of salvation in Jesus, the gentiles embraced it. And later in that same verse, Jesus said, even if Lazarus was raised from the dead, the Jews (richman's brethren) would believe. Just about a week later after Jesus said the parable, he raised a real life Lazarus from the dead, but instead of the Jews to believe and accept the message of the Messiah, they even tried to kill risen Lazarus. By Jews here, I'm referring largely to the Pharisees who believe that merely being an offspring of Abraham is enough guarantee of salvation (and surely, only these set of people would say "Father Abraham" in prayer)
It's still a fact that "the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life.” (Romans 6:23). Believing sinners will be tormented in hell for eternity is just believing they also will have everlasting life. The Bible only told us of death, destruction of sinners.

Ok,I wouldn't endulge u further since its not exactly the purpose of the thread, but it was a pleasure.I wonder what your fellow christians(non Jehovah witnesses to be specific) would make of ur position

The reason I phrased things like I did is that we can "feel" material stimuli, like touch or heat etc, which are all things we experience as physical beings. But we can also "feel" joy or peace or anger which do not require any material stimulus so that being physical is not necessary for such feelings.

The Bible does not tell us that spirits experience material stimuli, so I cannot say categorically that they feel in that sense. But, of course, they can experience fear as a feeling as well as pleasure etc.

I don't know how many times I have to say this,"a feeling" is a function of the nervous system. Pleasure,pain,joy,peace,all these things arise from the activities of the nervous system,it mustn't be in the presence of a "physical" stimulus. If a person loses a dear one,there is no "physical" stimulus like heat or pressure but the person feels pain,all these are attributes of the nervous system particularly the brain,so the question I have posed is that you give an explanation(if you have one) of how a spirit/soul would feel pain if it doesn't have a nervous system

My concern is always with what the Bible says, so I will only answer you from that perspective.

1.
[7]then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 NASB

This means that after death, our part is done and God's bit begins in earnest. To explain, yes, God rules Creation even while we live but He limits His influence to allow us to make free decisions about Him. But death ends our opportunity to freely make decisions about Him and then we must face the consequences of those decisions. This is what it means that our spirits return to God.

2.
[7]Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Genesis 2:7 NASB

[45]So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:45 NASB

The above means that man is a spirit which God created to live in a physical body. That is, man is not a body, soul and spirit. Rather, he is a soul which is what results from the creation of a spirit that lives in a physical body. Therefore, it is not possible to separate a spirit which goes to God from a soul which goes to hell.

3.
[28]Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28 NASB

[22]Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
[23]In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24]And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
[25]But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
Luke 16:22-25 NASB

[2]Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2 NASB

[28]Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
[29]and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
John 5:28-29 NASB

[4]Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
[12]And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
[13]And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
[15]And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:4,12-13,15 NASB

The first passage in the above should be read in light of those that follow. The point in that verse is that it is God Who is to be feared because He is the Only One Who can truly harm us in every way. When our bodies are destroyed, we will still live. In fact, when this earthly body dies, we are given another interim one with which we wait for either the Resurrection of the Righteous or the Judgment of the Great White Throne. It is only God Who can truly harm not just our earthly bodies but our whole being. That is what the Lake of Fire is designed to do. It can damage spirits which otherwise cannot be affected at all except by the Abyss and Torments (both of which are still part of Hell and will be filled with this Lake in the end).

As the following passages above show, there is no separation of spirit from soul for punishment. We are rewarded or punished in our full composition as human persons(that is what "soul" means).

@ the bolded,does this "full composition" you refer to include our physical body ?

Goodlyhrt:
My friend God is everywhere you just need to know to start perceiving and stop looking for him.

How did u encounter God ?

Placar dy mad

What of Romario ?

stephleena:
These guys are gaining confidence each day.. wtf!

Lol,if you are by any chance referring to may I'm heterosexual,sorry,I've never had any personal contact or social interaction with a homosexual ever(except I'd I didn't know the person was one), but u can think whatever u like

stephleena:
I love Hermes bag.. but Hermes homo?

Seems u have a taste for fashion
Did you know that the fashion industry is gay
Do u like Dulce & Gabbana ?

Ihedinobi3:
The Bible does not tell us whether spirits can feel or not. What it does say is that rebel angels today are afraid of being put in the Abyss which is a place supernaturally devoid of light in every respect. Thus, we can believe that the Lake of Fire must be able to affect them unpleasantly too.

Fear is a feeling,so going by what you said the bible does suggest that spirits can feel,I would come back to this.
Mutteylaff says when a person dies the spirit returns to YHWH while the soul faces judent,hence it is the soul that is cast into hell,are you in agreement with this ?

alBHAGDADI:
Aren't they filthy?

Don't they deal with faeces?

What if I call them an Abomination, which is a word the Bible used to describe them, would you allow the earth to swallow you?

Yoy can call them whatever you want, why stop there,your bible recommends that you stone them to death,what is stopping you ?

stephleena:
No sire,I can't have a thrilling convo with a gay apologist.
I might sound dumb to someone whose anus is bursted beyond surgical repairs..A pathetic soul.. I'm about to have lunch pls kindly stay off my mention I don't want to throw up or lose appetite completely.
And yes more anus fall on u

You are very proud of your homophobia,abusing and degrading others because they have a sexuality different from yours,but if men berate you and abuse you for being a woman you would start shouting,if white people abuse you for having a skin colour they consider inferior to theirs,you would start wailing,but here you are oppressing someone just because they are sexually attracted to their own sexes,something that does not harm you in any way,but you feel a lot of pleasure and satisfaction causing pain to them

Bravo,hypocrite

stephleena:
Sorry jussie Smollett... but it still beats my imagination why full fledged men leave fresh bobbies and behind only to dig a fellow man's arid anus. what's the pleasure?..

Everyone is not the same,why is this so difficult for you to understand,there are people even male who detest football while others love it with passion,should the person who loves it deride the other,human beings are different,some of these things are above us,it is the way our brains are wired,there is not great about boobs and a$$es,it only attracts men because of the way the brain interprets such visual information,the same with gay people,their brains are wired in such a way that their body gets aroused and sexually attracted to people of the same gender, if you see it that way you would understand that homosexuality infact sexuality is beyond our own voluntary control

alBHAGDADI:
I knew the bloody sodomite gay was lying the moment the news became major worldwide. It was all a move to achieve something evil. Their lies are now getting busted.

Shame on Stella Damasus, Tonto Dikeh and every stupid Nigerian who showed this filthy homosexual support while Leah Sharibu is still in Boko Haram custody.

Aren't Christians the nicest people in the world ?
See the way u describe another human being,and u wonder why we don't take u folks serious
Very shameful,and u say ur God is love or whatever

davien:
So God is also the poo I squeeze out of my A hole?
Pantheist rambles make me laugh..

To be honest,its not like I mean to disrespect philosophy but concepts like pantheism,deism and panentheism are trying just too hard to involve "God" ,what use is such God when the knowledge or lack knowledge of it doesn't affect us in any discernable way

Ihedinobi3:
First, we don't really know very much about spirits. We do know that they can affect material phenomena but not much else. The Bible does not go far beyond that.

Second, the Lake of Fire is definitely literal fire but probably in a sense that we do not yet know since this fire apparently is not going to be prevent the Lake from being supernaturally dark in a way that mankind has never quite experienced darkness. So, we don't know enough from the Bible to tell what that Fire really is compared to the fire that we know.

Third, even the unbelievers who get thrown into the Lake of Fire will be going with different bodies than the one we all possess now so that the question of nervous systems may still apply to them as well.

Fourth, this is all very supernatural. Clearly, the Bible talks of an eternal punishment. No one knows of a fire that lasts eternally. We all expect stars to burn out and for planets to collapse into them eventually. Even though science is pretty wrong about that since the earth will stand until the return of the King, the Bible does teach that all of this Universe will be destroyed at the end of the King's Millennium after which time a new Creation will be made. So, questions about the Lake of Fire that fail to take its supernatural nature into consideration miss the point entirely. This is punishment that rebellious spirits and resurrected unbelievers as well as Nephilim will definitely experience and regret thoroughly forever.

So in conclusion we can't relate to our spirit or soul "feeling" pain ?
But if I may ask do you think the spirit or soul(not that I believe they exist) can "feel" ?

DeOTR:
If the worms that infest a dead body are not killed, the rotting flesh will be consumed until none remains. Similarly, any fire which is not quenched will last only as long as there is fuel to keep it burning and then go out.
In essence, when a person does not repent of sin, the effect is permanent—eternal oblivion!
Jesus was quoting Isaiah 66:24 verbatim and it is interesting to know that the verse he was quoting is talking about worms feeding on dead bodies, so when he said their worms shall not die (not shall never die), he's talking about worms feasting on the damned uninterrupted. And believe me, this can only go on until the dead bodies are fully consumed.
The fire that never quenches? In Jeremiah 17:27, God had threatened Jerusalem, that if they refused to hallow the Sabbath, God’s holy day, God’s judgments would be poured upon it. that is the same wording as used to describe hell in Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:42-48.
The place where Jesus used as an example of hell (Gehenna) is not a place torment, but a place where everything thrown into it is meant to be destroyed. Nobody attempted to quench the fire there. The fire burns undisturbed, and just as the original is no more burning till date, the lake of fire will not burn forever, but it will burn long enough to destroy the sinners and the effect of it shall be eternal (everlasting punishment)

Wow,I like your view I must say but again thus is ur own interpretation, I'm sure another Christian would Give a different interpretation of that passage and I don't really think yours is most accurate.
What sayeth thou about the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in the bible,the rich man was in hell fire burning,if a sinner's soul simply perishes as you said,doesn't that pass a message different from that parable ?

DeOTR:
Of course there's after life for the righteous, not immediately after death, but at the second coming of Jesus.
The wicked will not burn forever, but destroyed forever. That's what the "perish" in John 3:16 means.

OK,what about the passage Jesus said it is better to enter life handicapped than to enter hell with both hands,were the fire never quenches and the worms never ceases
What does that mean ?

MuttleyLaff:
My friend, I like you, I really do. I like the way you fire on two cylinders. Here's is something you can relate to that will explain this a bit for you.

Do you ever recoil back, when watching something gruesome happening in real life or maybe just on a TV screen slash internet. That's your spirit not wanting to be grieved. Sometimes, you protect the gateway to your spirit man because you might not necessarily want to relive or remember the moment, so you block any avenue contact to the thing happening or going on

Oh lawd,how many times am I going to explain these things
Emotions are the handwork of the nervous system
The brain is the centre of the whole stuff,if the spirit or soul doesn't have the nervous system how does it "feel" anything,what is the mechanism ?

PaulAris:
The existence of God can be proved. But what then will be the point, it won't make their future any brighter
Why should a Theist waste his time trying to prove his god's existence, what then is the essence of faith?
These set of Atheists are illogical with an unreasonable mindset.
Even when "out of the norm" things happen before their eyes, they still choose ignorance saying its just an illusion.
I bet their root is in "the western world believes in no god and is better of, so why shouldn't I?"
It will be a pity if you truly think the westerners do not truly and absolutely believe in the existence of gods(of any sort)
They believe in it, infact they even got a better way to invoke them than we out here. But they choose not to live by the "belief in a god" sort of thing cause they know it'll create problems n segregation. They don't really enforce religion on themselves as we do, but they know

You people misunderstand atheists

We are not saying we can explain everything,we are not saying that we know how the universe was formed,we are not even saying that the universe can not or does not have a creator,we are saying that God(as described by theists) does not exist
God(the theist version) is a human creation to explain things it does not understand,there are many things we don't understand about life and the universe itself, ana atheist is sincere he says " I don't know ",a theist is insincere and says " God did it", when you ask them to give evidence for God they would tell you that you are illogical that is exactly what you are saying

Where is the evidence that God(your own description) exists,that is the question

DeOTR:
No.

OK I like your view,so no afterlife ?