₦airaland Forum

Humanism is nothing more than a religion that has made mankind itself the measure of all things.

thehomer: How nice of you to finally recognize it.

Duh, not recognition but permission for your folly.

Jesus is the Truth, how can He lie? Say you do not understand.

thehomer: God is not the judge. He is not qualified to judge. Hey don't blame me for your love of tedium.

you're judge then. Enjoy the feel while you may. Better yet, repent

thehomer: What? Getting uncomfortable again are you?

Uncomfortable your big tooth. The answer has been given severally na, God is Judge, you're not. Spare yourself the headache, the last time you absconded, remember?

Sorry, we'll be offering our rebuttal late. Please permit us another 12hours. This is due to inevitable circumstances. Apologies to everyone and thanks for following.

prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, not again homer.

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

If anyone is giving above 10% to the church of God, nobody has a right to disturb him about 10%. He has given over and above. i'm not sure there is any tither or tithe supporting pastor that disagrees with that. Obedience to God's Word brings blessings till tomorrow. Prayer brings blessing, hardwork brings blessing, giving tithes brings blessing, righteousness brings blessing, perseverance brings blessing, endurance brings blessing, faith brings blessing and on and on. When we give, God blesses us. This is a scriptural fact.
Tithe is 10% of a 100%. That is NOT a burden. People can abuse good things, no doubt. False ministers can devour ignorant and helpless people with prayers, visions, deliverance, prophecies, fastings, giving etc. Some do not ask for the tithe, they'll just ask for an amount. They can say 5000 or 20000 or any amount. They can ask for property. We cannot hang the abuse of God's Word on the tithe. As for old people, i have come to discover that the older people get, the more they tend to give. They are not the usual young people saving to buy this and that, or to send people to school. Most of them gladly give to their churches or other causes. It's not uncommon for folks to send money to their old parents, and they just take the little they need to feed and give out the rest. Some may not be to a church but to some fellow that comes to them. This is very common with the old people that me i know. Absolutely nothing wrong with old people giving the tithe. You are not giving the tithe to buy salvation or forgiveness of sins. That would be a wrong motive or reason.

“It is the safest thing to do” in the sense that you are safe from condemnation in every dispensation, and part of God's Word. Bring in any scripture, from whatever testament, none can stand against you in that matter, no matter the excuse. Again, tithing is not done to be accepted by God. i have stated that over and over on this thread, and i hope that this simple statement sinks in. We are not being ruled by fear but by reverence. We are not afraid of sin or of the law. We however honour and reverence God and His Word. Even Jesus was said to fear God in that sense. He had the Spirit of God without measure.
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
(BBE) Who in the days of his flesh, having sent up prayers and requests with strong crying and weeping to him who was able to give him salvation from death, had his prayer answered because of his fear of God.

We fear God because He is Judge, nothing wrong with godly fear. We do not fear satan or sin however.
2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear

The Bible says concerning judgement that books were opened. It's like some would tell an unbeliever that there is nothing lost by believing in God. It is the safest thing to do. If there is no God as it were, the believer is safe. If there is God, the believer is safe. Same cannot be said for the unbeliever. If on judgement day for instance, tithe is in any of the books, we are safe and are rewarded for it. If there is no tithe in any of the books, we are still safe. God will not frown at anyone for giving the tithe. We will all be rewarded according to our works.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

If our fellow discussants have the list of books that God will open, please kindly produce it so that we can all be fully assured what God will use to reward us. If not, there is no need to discourage any tither from good works. For God is not unrighteous to forget their labour of love.


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Response to rebutting R4

Our purpose for engaging in this discussion is to explain the reasons why the tithe is valid, and to clear common misconceptions and thoughts on the biblical tithe. Our actions and motives are not borne out of a reaction to external forces or to abuses of the tithe practice. Our actions are rooted in the Word of God and the examples and testimonies of godly people to the better part of our knowledge and the leading of the Spirit of God. We are not unaware of wrong teaching and practice in christianity but that is not what determines what we do primarily. There is false teaching and practice concerning faith, concerning miracles, concerning prayer, to be truthful concerning everything.

When we say that there is no condemnation for giving the tithe, this is to allay any fears raised by some that giving the tithe puts one at risk of losing salvation. There is this false doctrine that if a christian gives the tithe, such a person has fallen from grace. We've also heard people say that they can NEVER give tithes because of some fear about their salvation. Offering the tithe places one in a position where the tither cannot be condemned by God or called a robber IN ANY DISPENSATION.
There is no condemnation for those which are in Christ Jesus. Jesus is the Judge and no christian is expected to condemn anyone.(Matthew 7:1). However, christians can correct one another in love. A pastor is expected and ordained as a shepherd to correct his congregation, those that God has made him an overseer of. He feeds them with the Word of God and helps them to honour God and His Word. A pastor or christian leader can teach his congregation what the Bible teaches, one of which is the tithe. He however does not have the duty of condemning anyone.

It is wrong for a christian not to tithe. It is wrong to be late for service. It is wrong not to be prayerful. But i sincerely cannot say if one would be condemned for not doing any of these. It is not my job, and i was told to judge nothing before the time. God is the Judge.
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Under the school tutor, a child will get punished for coming late to school or skipping class, like i previously explained. A child will get spanked for staying out late, not doing the dishes, not observing siesta etc. But when the child becomes a young adult, nobody spanks him in a sense. There is no condemnation as was done under the school master. However, there may be repercussions when a young adult does not attend classes, or do his assignments. When he goes late to classes, or does not rest well, or usually comes in late in the night. There may be no school teacher to spank him as he is no longer under such, he is now a big person. This does not justify his deeds. He MAY not perform as well as he should/can, he may risk being mugged or assaulted for coming in late even when there are plausible reasons. This is simply the position of those of us not under the law/school tutor. The end/goal/purpose of the school master is to bring us to Christ. It is not to lawlessness.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is no condemnation for us who walk after the Spirit, not fleshly. And the goal is that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us. We should not miss the reasons for our redemption. We have ALWAYS said that we are no longer under the law. It seems its usually the antitihers that tell us that we must tithe according to the law, whatever that means. We have kept reminding us all that we are not under the law and that tithing precedes and transcends the period of the law/old covenant. This is nothing new. Image123 for one has always maintained that there is no compulsion in the new covenant as it were. Prayer is not by compulsion, giving/tithing is not by compulsion, reading the Bible is not by compulsion etc. One cannot exactly argue that a person is condemned because he/she did has not been having regular devotion, or any other christian practice. But we are very clear about what is the right thing to do. And tithing remains one of the right things for a believer to do, like prayer, fasting, fellowship etc. Loving people cannot justify anybody, honouring our parents or elders cannot justify anybody. We are justified by faith.

Tithe is not Moses' patent. This means that it is not confined to just Moses. There are things we can learn from Moses. We are not trying to pit Moses against Abraham or Jacob. Our tithing is not just based on a person, it is based on God. We honour and regard ALL Scripture as inspired by God. Now, when we said examples can be followed but they are not laws for the general populace for all time, We were very specific about what was meant and that was about Numbers 31. Mark and candour had told us that Numbers 31 was a law for Israel, and we had explained and shown clearly that it(the Numbers 31 passage about spoils of war) was not a law but an instance. The tithe was something the whole populace was to do, and it was for all time. This is clearly seen under the law. Under the law, tithing was compulsory, but the instance of how spoils were shared in Numbers 31 was not compulsory. In our own dispensation, almost nothing is compulsory, including prayer or tithing.
i think we should make extra effort to clearly understand what we are both(the two parties) saying, so as to clear up misconceptions and misunderstandings like we have done concerning Abraham's spoils, Jacob's vow, and the use of words like 'pay' or 'give'.

BTW, the Levites had an inheritance. God was their inheritance and the tithes was also their inheritance. They were not being punished not to be able to have an inheritance. They were not given land in the format that God gave the other tribes, because God wanted them concentrating and consecrating on His work. The tithe was their right, they were not begging for it. They had cities to dwell in, and they had property. Prophet Jeremiah for instance was a levite and he had land that he bought. Same for another levite in the new testament.

Jer 32:8 So Hanameel mine uncle's son came to me in the court of the prison according to the word of the LORD, and said unto me, Buy my field, I pray thee, that is in Anathoth, which is in the country of Benjamin: for the right of inheritance is thine, and the redemption is thine; buy it for thyself. Then I knew that this was the word of the LORD.

Act 4:36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
Act 4:37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

These people understood clearly the reasons why they did not have an inheritance LIKE the other tribes. It is not that they were penniless or shelterless. Christ brought us grace however, and we are not under the law. But we need to note that Christ Himself never threw away the Word of God. The Bible makes us to understand that it was not just grace that was with Him, it was grace and truth. We need the grace and the truth, not just a truthless grace.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Psa 119:151 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.

Here is what Jesus thought of the Word of God, and we ought to have the mind of Christ.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Now, it is IMPORTANT to note that there is a difference between what we call the commandments of men, and the commandments of God. There is the traditions of men, and THERE is the traditions of God. It is often easy to throw away the baby with the bath water in this case.
There is NOTHING wrong with men's tradition, as far as it does not contradict with God's Word, and as much as it does not take the place of God's Word or Spirit. A family may have traditions, what they do every year, when they pray or how/pattern they pray, or what they eat during a festive period. A fellowship, a school, a workplace, a town may have traditions of things. It is when these traditions take God's place, or are being posed as God's that is not normal. i said God also has traditions and commandments. He has His own ways and patterns of doing things.
2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Tithing is not man's tradition, it is rooted in the Word of God. In fact, God once called some fellows robbers for not doing it. It is not man's suggestion. All scriptures were breathed on by God's Holy Spirit. And they are not for our condemnation. There is no condemnation for those of us who are in Christ. It has being explained what was against us. It is the Old Agreement that was against us. It is not love your neighbour as yourself(Leviticus 19) that is against us. It is not Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy. OR Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another. (all in Lev 19). These are not what is against us. Don't uncover the unclothedness of your mother, or do not seek after familiar spirits is not what is against us. It is the agreement, that IF we can obey ALL God's Word, THEN we will be justified. It is this law, this agreement that is against us.

Edited.

double post

Presenting R4 Our tithing remains practiced because there is no condemnation from God for doing it. (Romans 8:1)

What is tithe? Tithe is one tenth of somebody's income or produce. It is as simple and as basic as that. That is very clear and understandable. Every tithe of whatever form conforms and answers to this simple and basic meaning of the tithe. It is the attempts to make mountains out of molehills that cause people to add to this definition, usually for sinister purposes. The purposes of tithing is defeated when it is unnecessarily turned into a burden. Human beings love to give people burden to carry. Normally, the tithe is a small part, a tenth, or 10% of a whole. After the small one part, you are left with 9 parts with which you do other things. No one is expected to give tithe as a burden. Even in the old testament, and under the law, that was not done. The tithe was given with joy and appreciation. And today, the fruit of the spirit is joy. When we say we tithe of increase, it is explained that such increase IS income from labour. What you sowed and reaped, what you work for and are paid for. That is as basic and as simple as it is. It is not expected that you are to give tithes of school fees as a student, or someone lends you money to foot a bill and you give tithe. It's not a sin BTW, that's personal decision and sacrifice, or could be lack of clear understanding of the tithe. Nevertheless, no one can outgive God knowingly or mistakenly. When you give, Jesus said it will be given unto you, so no needs to worry. It is not expected that you tithe of a gift especially if it is unaffordable, its a personal choice. You might not even be able to afford the gift. For instance, your company gifts you with a car, or your father in law gifts you with a house or whatever. These are not what we are referring to as income. By income, we mean payment for work, goods, or services, or as profit on capital. Its not the reasoning of God increased me with two children, how do i tithe this increase. Those are carnal thoughts, and the spirit behind the tithe is lost on such reasonings.
We do not tithe under the law as we are not under it. We tithe without condemnation.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

We do not honour our parents under the law as we are not under it. We tithe because there is NO CONDEMNATION from God for tithing. It is the safest thing to do. We are without offence to anyone. When you tithe, you cannot be labelled a robber whether mistakenly or truthfully. You are safe as a tither whatever dispensation, whatever law, whatever criteria may be brought out. This is one reason why we tithe, it is the safest position, the wisest position. You cannot be wrong on the tithe. In a certain dispensation and covenant, we ALL agree that God could tell some folks that they were robbers because they did not tithe. If i had being in that dispensation, i would not be called a robber for not tithing. Same cannot be said for all of us.
The law was our school master. Not their school master alone, but OUR school master.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Now, we are no longer under the law. And remember, tithing is not limited to the law. It is not the discovery of Moses, neither does he hold any patent to it. But under the law as our schoolmaster, our child tutor, what happened is like what happens to children before they become matured. There are many rules for children and many punishments too.There is that MUST surrounding the child. The child must wake at a certain time, must be in bed at a certain time, must finish the food in the plate, must do the dishes, must complete those assignments, most wear the socks, and the socks must be that colour, must come in from wherever he went to play at a certain time, etc. As the child grows and matures to a young adult, he is no longer under the school master. However, a responsible child will realise how important those rules were, and how they formed him/her to be successful today. Today, nobody might flog or punish him for staying up late, or coming in by 1am, or not going to classes or doing his assignments. But he knows that it is best for him. He is not under condemnation, no teacher or lecturer will chastise him. This is about the difference between being under the law and under grace. We should not turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness, or fail of the grace of God. Again, i am CERTAIN God will not condemn or punish anyone for tithing in any dispensation, covenant or time. This is one reason why tithing should be encouraged and practiced.


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Presenting R4 comes in later in the day. Thanks for the patience.

These five kings were under the reign and dominion of Cherdorlaomer before they rebelled or tried to rebel.
Gen 14:4 Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer, and in the thirteenth year they rebelled.

Cherdo called the shots for 12 years! He was the don of the whole place. Bera was the rebel king under him. Chedo was greater and stronger. The next year after these 5kings rebelled, Chedo and his friends went on rampage to regain dominion of the whole place. Look at the grasses that suffered as it were before they came to deal with Bera and his allies.
Gen 14:5 And in the fourteenth year came Chedorlaomer, and the kings that were with him, and smote the Rephaims in Ashteroth Karnaim, and the Zuzims in Ham, and the Emims in Shaveh Kiriathaim,
Gen 14:6 And the Horites in their mount Seir, unto El-paran, which is by the wilderness.
Gen 14:7 And they returned, and came to En-mishpat, which is Kadesh, and smote all the country of the Amalekites, and also the Amorites, that dwelt in Hazezon-tamar.

This was massive, its not just about one loser Bera. Bera was just one of many kings and kingdoms that Cherdolaomer and his three friends' armies defeated. So, when Abraham defeats Chedo, we are not talking about just Bera's property but the spoils of about 9 kingdoms and more, now in the hands of Abraham. The winner took it all, BUT Abraham had vowed not to touch Sodom's goods. Sodom was where Lot was. Abraham did not touch Sodom or Lot's goods. He recovered them and let things be. He however did not decide for others that helped him. What his servants had eaten or taken and what his confederates had taken was their own prerogative.

Gen 14:23 That I will not take from a thread even to to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:
Gen 14:24 Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

But for the spoils and properties gotten from the other 8 kingdoms, Abraham had no such vow. It is of these that he gave a tenth. Nobody called him to come rescue them from soldiers of fortune. These 4 kings were in charge of the region for over a decade. The Bible states that it is the five kings that REBELLED. This is not stealing in the market or a group of thieves. We are talking about armies of kingdoms. Soldiers that do not travel light. No army travels light. Army is not a group of armed robbers for one night operation. Armies can be in a place for months, that's why they have a lot of property with them. It is of these that Abraham took spoils of war. The 8 kings were not penniless or property-less. It will be a distorted picture to say that the only person or kingdom who had property was Sodom. Abraham did not want to take what was Sodom's because of a personal vow, which reasons are easily understandable, knowing that Sodom are his brother Lot's landlords. The goods of the other 8 or more kingdoms are not Sodom's and Abraham had no such vows. Of their spoils, he gave tithe to God. We are not saying it is a law, it has not being so said on this thread. What we have clearly stated is that it is an example. It shows that tithes was not a discovery of Moses, neither does he hold the patent. It shows that both God(the Author of Genesis) and Moses(the writer of Genesis) considered what Abraham gave as tithe. They saw it as tithe. They never had some special God's tithes defined anywhere. What Abraham gave qualified as a tithe, what Jacob gave or vowed qualified as a tithe, what Moses described qualified as a tithe, what we give qualifies as a tithe. Let God remain the Judge of what He accepts of His children. No man has exclusive rights to tell God's children that what they give to God is unacceptable.

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RESPONSE TO RESPONSE TO REBUTTAL M3


In actuality, our reference to many wars under the law showed that Numbers 31 was not a law, and was not the model followed by the children of Israel. Spoils were not shared between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation. In the 2Kings passage, we saw that it was even sold, though very cheap. In some of Joshua's wars, nothing from the spoils went to the people. Not even the soldiers, Achan tried it and got punished. Numbers 31 was not what God required of war spoils under the Mosaic/Levitic Law. It was just an instance. And like we explained, an instance CAN BE emulated, but it is not a law or a requirement. We can learn from examples and experiences of others. We showed how Elisha did the same thing that Elijah did to part the River. It does not mean that everybody must follow what God told Moses to do to part the Red Sea. Even Joshua did not follow that in parting the River jordan. Again, let us get that clearly, Numbers 31 was not a law, and was not the model followed by the children of Israel.

There is however an ordinance in the passage that the children of Israel had to follow else they would be unclean.
Num 31:21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;
Num 31:22 Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead,
Num 31:23 Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water.
Num 31:24 And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp.

This passage is also corroborated in other parts of the pentateuch, especially dealing with physical contact with dead people.
Let us note also that the spoils of war came to the temple/tabernacle/house of God. It was not absurd to give spoils of war to the priest. We should not harp about giving agric produce in a sense that suggests that giving spoils of war is an abomination. Abraham gave spoils of war. The Israelites were also instructed in the Numbers 31 passage instance to give spoils of war. It was accepted by God as an heave offering, just like the tithe is an heave offering.
Num 31:28 And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beefs, and of the asses, and of the sheep:
Num 31:29 Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for a heave offering of the LORD.
Num 31:41 And Moses gave the tribute, which was the LORD's heave offering, unto Eleazar the priest, as the LORD commanded Moses.


After that, the soldiers came also and gave of spoils of war to the priest Eleazar. It was not an uncommon thing to do or a sacrilegious thing to do. Nobody was told that he cannot give out of spoils of war, or to go and bring only agricultural produce. This is even under the law oh.
Num 31:50 We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD.
Num 31:51 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of them, even all wrought jewels.
Num 31:54 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of the captains of thousands and of hundreds, and brought it into the tabernacle of the congregation, for a memorial for the children of Israel before the LORD.

Mark insists that Abraham's tithe was a one-off because it is only one event that is recorded in the bible of Abraham giving tithes. That is just an assumption and never a fact. That line of reasoning asserts that anything not recorded in the Bible NEVER happened. Imagine anyone asserting that either David or Jacob were not circumcised because it is not recorded in the Bible! Or that David never gave tithe because it is not recorded in the Bible. Or that some Bible character never died, or had children, or wife, or offered burnt offerings, because it is not recorded in the Bible or it is recorded only once. Yet, my friends are quick to tell us that tithing was common practice in the time of Abraham. How can we say that tithing is something everybody did to their gods around Abraham, BUT Abraham MUST HAVE done it just once?
Mark even quoted some evidence (can be found on wikipedia-tithe) about The Assyrian Dictionary of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago, Vol. 4 "E. The same paragraph shows that tithing was done from the common people in the town, accountant, gardiner, elders, the tithe of the king on barley of the town etc. These was allegedly common in Mesopotamia. It was not just something that soldiers did. Again, the Bible is not Abraham's personal diary, showing all his daily activities. The man lived for about 175years! You have to be omniscient to assert statements like what he MUST have done ONCE.

Now, of course Abraham had a PERSONAL objective when he went in pursuit of the army. His motivation for going into the battle was Lot.
Gen 14:13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.
Gen 14:14 And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.

Abraham had trained servants, trained for battle. This is almost compulsory in his time. The whole earth was a jungle of the fittest, and all people and kingdoms did was to conquer lands and lands. You had to stay fit or be ready to be under some kingdom. It was still common in the last century where european countries took hold of many countries in Africa and the Americas, until Independence. Check history and check the Bible, its evident there what sort of life they lived. The spoils of war did not belong to one Bera of Sodom. The fact remains that there were about 9 kingdoms involved in the war, 9 kingdoms and more!

Gen 14:1 And it came to pass in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of nations;
Gen 14:2 That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.

Four kings in verse one fought with five kings in verse two. Of course, we all know that all these kings had their armies and kingdoms. We are not just talking about nine people involved in wrestling.
1. Amraphel king of Shinar
2. Arioch king of Ellasar
3. Chedorlaomer king of Elam
4. Tidal king of nations.

The above 4 were the ruling kings i.e the ones dominating the region. Imagine Tidal king of nations, NATIONS. However, verses suggest that Chedorlaomer was the strongest of the four. Below are the five kings, who are local boys and losers.
5. Bera king of Sodom
6. Birsha king of Gomorrah
7. Shinab king of Admah
8. Shemeber king of Zeboiim
9. The king of Bela, which is Zoar

Very sorry for our late submissions in the recent times. Response to response coming in in about 5 minutes. Thanks for the understanding.

One main purpose of tithing is as a show of appreciation and acknowledgement to God. It was also multipurposed for the Levites to be taken care of, as they were not working except in the temple(abi na tabernacle). Such a purpose would have being lost in Numbers 31 as nobody was working yet, they were all receiving manna. There was yet to need to give the tenth to the Levites. The tithe was their salary, a compensation for their not being allowed to work full time outside like other tribes. It was given to take care of them and to help them serve without distraction. Some times if the people were not faithful in their giving, the levites became discouraged and withdrew to go do some work.
Num 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Neh 13:10 And I perceived that the portions of the Levites had not been given them: for the Levites and the singers, that did the work, were fled every one to his field.
Neh 13:11 Then contended I with the rulers, and said, Why is the house of God forsaken? And I gathered them together, and set them in their place.
Neh 13:12 Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries.

Now, Abraham's tithes have being shown to be the spoils gotten from the kingS that defeated the rebellious kings. Note that Sodom and co were actually the rebellious ones.
Gen 14:4 Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer, and in the thirteenth year they rebelled.

Also, Abraham did not touch even a shoelace from Sodom's property, not to mention 10%. It is not okay to tithe out of someone else's property. Tithing is a personal decision, and Abraham took that decision. He did not decide for the men who went with him. He said they could have their own portion. He tithed of the spoils of the four strong kings who defeated five other kings(including Sodom) and more.
Gen 14:23 That I will not take from a thread even to to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:
Gen 14:24 Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

My friend Mark said "There is evidence from recorded history that the Babylonians gave tithes of war spoils." What i do not understand is how it is agreed that tithes was common practice in Abraham's days, but Abraham's MUST have being a rarity, a one-off. i know that the Bible is not Abraham's diary, it is the Word of God! And the Word of God reveals to us the nature of God and what pleases Him. BTW, before i proceed, Numbers 31 showed that there was nothing out of order/place in presenting spoils to God. the soldiers came and presented it. They seemed to have the same spirit that was in father Abraham.

Num 31:48 And the officers which were over thousands of the host, the captains of thousands, and captains of hundreds, came near unto Moses:
Num 31:49 And they said unto Moses, Thy servants have taken the sum of the men of war which are under our charge, and there lacketh not one man of us.
Num 31:50 We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD.
Num 31:51 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of them, even all wrought jewels.
Num 31:52 And all the gold of the offering that they offered up to the LORD, of the captains of thousands, and of the captains of hundreds, was sixteen thousand seven hundred and fifty shekels.
Num 31:53 (For the men of war had taken spoil, every man for himself. )
Num 31:54 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of the captains of thousands and of hundreds, and brought it into the tabernacle of the congregation, for a memorial for the children of Israel before the LORD.

We definitely believe that God does not change. We however would never mistake reliability for rigidity.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

The basic about the tithe is that the tithe is a tenth. Its purpose is clearly revealed as well. We do not have to forsake and forget the purpose, and be chasing another thing. Some people in Jesus'time forsook and forgot God's purpose for the Sabbath which is rest and restraint from coveteousness. They went and started making rules of don't heal on the sabbath, don't move more than a set kilometres on the sabbath, don't pluck pawpaw on the sabbath. We stand in danger of losing the purpose of tithing when we try to make it a burden on ourselves. When we say tithing of income or increase, what is meant is the regular increase gotten from labour, from sowing and reaping. It is not a burden to be created by circumstance. Like if a rich friend gives me keys to a house, then i'm thinking of debt of the amount of the house to tithe. If the house cost 2million, i start looking for 200 thousand. That's not the tithe. tithe is not bondage, it is a thing that was/is done in joy and appreciation to God. There is a tithe in Deuteronmy describing this, where the tither buys anything and celebrates with family and friends. let's not turn God's word into an uneasy yoke, we have the Spirit of God. The important thing is that the tithe is the tithe, whether it is from cloth, or spoils, or agric produce, or currency. We can give tithes of ALL, as much as we have the grace. Jacob vowed to give tithe of ALL, the pharisee claimed to have given tithe of ALL that he possessed.
We have different types of humans, we have male and female, young and old, black and white, etc. These are all types and classifications of humans, but the main thing is that they are all humans. One human is not more human than the other. We do not say this is the acceptable human, the other one is invalid human. They are all basically humans irrespective of their differences. The same illustration can be made for animals, fishes, birds, anything.
We as believers know about Adam, the first one. We also know the last Adam. Before God, they are both a type of Adam. God classes them together BASICALLY as Adam. They have their differences clear as night and day, but in the end they are both Adam. One is not more Adam than the other. Jesus does not need to be in Eden before He is the last Adam. He does not need an Eve, He was a good Adam without one. He was born as a baby. He died in His thirties. So many differences, but He is still a type of Adam. Again, i say, let us not mistake God's dependability for dogmatism. God does not change in the sense that He is reliable and faithful and true.


END

Rebutting M3

Let us take another look at Numbers 31.

Num 31:14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
Num 31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
Num 31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
Num 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

This passage is the incidence when Israel fought with the Midianites. The Midianites had lured the Israelites into fornication, and Israel had being plagued and many thousands died. In this instance, there were specific instructions for what to do concerning the Midianites. Specific instructions are not general instructions, although they may be emulated. Like God told Moses specifically to speak to the Rock, or to stretch his rod over the Red Sea, or as they lifted up Moses' hands while the army was fighting. These instances are not laws for every season or event. Yes, it can be repeated, but it is not a general rule to be obeyed by everyone facing such scenerio. Joshua did not stretch his rod on river Jordan, he did something else. Elijah did not stretch his rod, he parted Jordan with his cloth. Elisha followed his example. Examples can be followed and as the Holy Spirit leads us, but they are not necessarily laws for the general populace or for all time. Any reader of the Bible knows that the passage above did not become a standard for battle or for spoils. In some other battles, the Israelites had captives of any age.
There were some battles where even the cloth was not to be taken, not to mention human beings. Like the one against Jericho where only Rahab was spared. There is however a general rule in the passage which Eleazar the high priest chipped in and he qualified it.

Num 31:21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;
Num 31:22 Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead,
Num 31:23 Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water.
Num 31:24 And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp.

It had to do with their laws on purity and cleansing. Their spoils were unclean until it passed through water. The verses that followed this instruction were just for this specific battle. They were not necessarily followed in subsequent battles. Time and space would fail me to show so many battles fought after this, where nothing of such was observed or practiced.
Num 31:26 Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation:
Num 31:27 And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation:
Num 31:28 And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beefs, and of the asses, and of the sheep:
Num 31:29 Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for a heave offering of the LORD.
Num 31:30 And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beefs, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD.
Num 31:31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Consider David's account in his fight against Amalekites. The spoils were shared equally among the soldiers, both those that went to fight and those that did not.
1Sa 30:22 Then answered all the wicked men and men of Belial, of those that went with David, and said, Because they went not with us, we will not give them aught of the spoil that we have recovered, save to every man his wife and his children, that they may lead them away, and depart.
1Sa 30:23 Then said David, Ye shall not do so, my brethren, with that which the LORD hath given us, who hath preserved us, and delivered the company that came against us into our hand.
1Sa 30:24 For who will hearken unto you in this matter? but as his part is that goeth down to the battle, so shall his part be that tarrieth by the stuff: they shall part alike.
1Sa 30:25 And it was so from that day forward, that he made it a statute and an ordinance for Israel unto this day.

Then David of his own volition sent portions of the spoil to many of his friends in different places.

1Sa 30:26 And when David came to Ziklag, he sent of the spoil unto the elders of Judah, even to his friends, saying, Behold a present for you of the spoil of the enemies of the LORD;
1Sa 30:27 To them which were in Bethel, and to them which were in south Ramoth, and to them which were in Jattir,
1Sa 30:28 And to them which were in Aroer, and to them which were in Siphmoth, and to them which were in Eshtemoa,
1Sa 30:29 And to them which were in Rachal, and to them which were in the cities of the Jerahmeelites, and to them which were in the cities of the Kenites,
1Sa 30:30 And to them which were in Hormah, and to them which were in Chor-ashan, and to them which were in Athach,
1Sa 30:31 And to them which were in Hebron, and to all the places where David himself and his men were wont to haunt.

David did not follow the Numbers 31 pattern. Jehoshaphat did not, neither was the pattern repeated during the time of Elisha, when Israel fought with Syria.
2Ch 20:25 And when Jehoshaphat and his people came to take away the spoil of them, they found among them in abundance both riches with the dead bodies, and precious jewels, which they stripped off for themselves, more than they could carry away: and they were three days in gathering of the spoil, it was so much.
2Ch 20:26 And on the fourth day they assembled themselves in the valley of Berachah; for there they blessed the LORD: therefore the name of the same place was called, The valley of Berachah, unto this day.

They simply stripped off for themselves.

2Ki 7:15 And they went after them unto Jordan: and, lo, all the way was full of garments and vessels, which the Syrians had cast away in their haste. And the messengers returned, and told the king.
2Ki 7:16 And the people went out, and spoiled the tents of the Syrians. So a measure of fine flour was sold for a shekel, and two measures of barley for a shekel, according to the word of the LORD.

In the case above, the people simply sold the spoils very cheap. In the time of Moses, the children of Israel were still in the wilderness. They were still being fed with manna every day. Nobody was working or planting anything. This is why they had to divide the spoil into two parts, one part for the soldiers and the other part for the congregation.
Num 31:27 And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation:

This is not the same conditions as when they have inherited Canaan, and every tribe is working, sowing and reaping except the Levites. There is no such 50-50 division in Jerusalem or Canaan. This is why the percentage given for a heave offering of the LORD is so little. Notice that they still gave something. Also, please note that the tithe is a sort/kind of heave offering too. Heave is simply to put up or lift up. This is symbolically done in appreciation to God. The offering is heaved/lifted up to God in acknowledgement.

Num 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as a heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.

It is this same understanding that Abraham had, that God the possessor of heaven and earth had given him the victory.
Gen 14:19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Mark Miwerds: close. Only off by one hour. Seven hour between us, making it 9:00 AM

Oh okay, hoping i would not have to even ask more time. i'm caught up in roaad traffic at the moment. Still hoping though. Rhymej's being busied and i've been in a place with internet network and electricity issues. On my way homeeeeeeee.

Please, we would be requesting for time for the rebut. By God's grace in the next 7 hours i.e before 4pm nigerian time(i guess that should be 10am in misssissippi).

Amen, though as usual, people tend to abuse things.

i hoped the foundation be established that every Scripture is divinely inspired and profitable, that Jesus and the apostles treated them so. This was to correct statement like "Jesus was not speaking to the New Testament Church". With such statements, there is no stopping a throwing away of the whole Old testament bible and a good portion of the New Testament Bible too. Believers are not the ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth team. The Word of God is not history book, for us to learn and learn without any relevance, impact, impart, and applications to us.

We give tithe of what God increases us with. If God increases us with currency, then we tithe of it. Tithe is a tenth of income. It is not something we do to be justified before God. i've heard of folks that obey a 'do not tithe' law, because they want to be justified. They believe that if they tithe, they stand to be condemned or to lose their salvation. So there is a i MUST not tithe law that they obey, so as to be justified. This is old covenant pattern. The main point about Abraham's tithe and jacob's tithe is that God and Moses recognised that what they gave was a tithe. They did not say that it did not qualify under God's criteria. The Holy Spirit called it tithe, and it is acceptable.

Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

i hope we realise that God's law is not what is referred to as carnal commandment. The Word of God is not carnal. Paul said it is spiritual, of course we don't need Paul to say that before we know it. But nonetheless.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

It would be contradictory to say the law is spiritual, then say the law is carnal commandment. What is needed is to rightly divide the Word, and find out what is carnal. What is carnal is the ordinances, the agreement made under the Old covenant/Levitical covenant. Where you had to obey these and that to be clean or saved or accepted. That commandment and agreement never made anyone perfect. All these ordinances and agreement ie the Old Covenant/agreement is disannulled in the new covenant. we are no longer under that agreement. The agreement was unprofitable as it did not fulfil its purpose. man could not keep it, it was a weak agreement. We have a strong agreement under Christ. these are the issues being discussed in the Hebrews, not some tithe. Tithe was used in the preceding verses to demonstrate that their was a priesthood geater than levi's.
All of God's word is summed up in Love, from genesis to revelation. It's all leading us to love towards God and love for ourselves as humans. This is what Jesus and the apostles said.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


Charity is above all. the end or goal or aim of the commandment is charity. the greatest of these is charity. if there be any other commandment, it is summarised under love. Any commandment. Love is the fulfilling of the law. But love is not a means to justification or salvation. It is by grace that we are saved through faith. Not by any lovely or burdensome commandment.

END

Response to Rebuttal R3

Our good friends have said "We should all have utmost respect for the Word of God. Who are we to question how God does things?" this is our very essence and should be foundational on everything we do as children of God. respect is seen in our actions, beliefs and thinking. See for instance what sort of respect the psalmist had for the Word of God.

Psa 119:103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
Psa 119:162 I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil.
Psa 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth forever.
Psa 119:126 It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.
Psa 119:136 Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law.

Thy word is true from the beginning. From beginning to the end. Every word of God is pure. Again, let me plainly re-state that God's law is not just Exodus to deuteronomy, or Genesis to Deuteronmomy, or Genesis to Malachi. God's law is Genesis to Revelation. Even Jesus referred to the Psalms as law.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Joh 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
Psa 109:3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.

The whole Word of God is God's law. Of course the five books of Moses are part of that. It is all of it that we are to meditate on and search. Paul said Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
There is what is called the law of Moses, and sometimes shortened as 'the law'. However, all of God's Word is also law as we have seen from Jesus. And He considered is own words also in the same vein. This is why He stated that His Words will not pass away, the same thing He said about the law.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
i'm sure we understand that "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." is not just referring to the books of Moses, but to all of God's Word.
When we talk of the books of Moses, inside it, we have what we call Mosaic laws i.e the laws Moses wrote down. These are not the ONLY laws in the Word of God. In fact there were laws before the laws God gave Moses. Abraham, Enoch, Noah etc all knew some laws. Moses himself knew some laws before going to the Mount to receive from God. They were not lawless before the Mosaic law.
Exo 18:16 When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them known the statutes of God, and his laws.

The Mosaic law actually came with the Covenant, the Old Covenant, or Old Agreement. The Old Agreement was simply God proposing to them that He would give them laws, and if they obeyed them, they will be acceptable. That was their route to justification, obey laws to be justified. It is in this Covenant that we have many ordinances and the Levitical priesthood. This Covenant is also known as the law, or the law of Moses. This covenant, or agreement is what is AGAINST us. It's an agreement that does not pay/favour us. That is why it is against us, as we cannot meet the agreement. It is not God's law that does not favour us. Paul said that the law is good and holy and righteous and spiritual. he said we establish the law. But the covenant(Old Covenant), the agreement, the document Moses and Israel signed, it was against them, and against anyone who wants to go that route. Please, the reader should perhaps re-read this, and clearly understand.
This is important because many people today still live in that same Old Covenant or agreement. An agreement that states that IF we obey God, then we will be justified. This is why many atheists and non christians have a problem with God and Christianity. They cannot believe or accept that justification is by faith in Jesus. They believe doing good, being moral should be enough to justify us. Not knowing that all our morality and righteousness cannot avail. Some people think if they obey God and the golden rule, God should not condemn them. The golden rule or law BTW is what Jesus said. That is,
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Do to others what you want them to do to you. Many people live this way, or try to live this way for justification. They believe and reason that they should be in God's kingdom for doing that. Being good, obeying one law or the other. Some will try to obey the laws of Jesus or of Paul. Love your neighbour, love your enemies, be courteous, be moderate, think good things etc. These are lovely laws but are never God's route for us to be saved or justified. This is what the apostles were against. They were against such covenant or agreement, KNOWING that it does not work. God’s Word is forever settled in Heaven, it cannot be useless or void. We need to understand that Genesis is also God's Word, just as Numbers 18 is also God's word. One did not cancel out the other. Abraham did not tithe to the levites, he was not under the law. We also that are not under the law cannot be mandated to tithe to levites. Even under the law, it was not only levites that got tithes. People gave a tithe to themselves and their neighbours. People gave to widows and poor people. It is not only levites that took tithes even under the law. And we are not under the law. Jesus Christ came to establish the new covenant. The Old one could not be sustained. Man could not obey all of God's laws, so he could not be acceptable or justified. But in Christ, by faith we are acceptable in the beloved, and justified, not because of obeying any thing, but because of faith in Jesus. Even if you love everybody, and give your body to be burned, that cannot save you. Loving everybody cannot justify anyone. The new commandment of love cannot make anyone righteous in God's eyes. Keeping laws and commandments cannot be used to make anyone righteous. It is tantamount to tempting God. Obeying God's law is not tempting God, it is when we want to show to God that we are righteous without Him, that is tempting God. When we try to keep commandments to be saved, we are tempting God, as Israel did. This is what some people wanted to do in the early church.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

This people wanted everyone to be circumcised so that they can be saved. Talk about using the law unlawfully. there is nothing wrong with circumcision. Paul circumcised Timothy, but it was not to save him or make him justified.
Act 16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
This is immediately after Acts 15! You see, the problem was not with the law of circumcision. It was with using the law, any law to obtain salvation. Some have tried penance, self abstenence, piety etc, to obtain salvation. Again, if anyone wants to give the tithe to be acceptable or saved, he is on a wrong route. Paul said circumcision is nothing, it is not the big issue, if one really understands what is at stake.
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

The problem was not with circumcision or any of God's laws. But using it unlawfully was a problem. we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully. Nothing wrong with circumcision if a man uses it lawfully, but when you want to use it as a means to salvation or justification, not only Paul, even me, i can fight you oh. The same thing happened in Galatians, as some jews came and others were carried away with their dissembling. They were COMPELLING people to be circumcised as a means to justification. They were giving circumcised people preference, they were classing themselves as superior, and would not even eat with uncircumcised people.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Notice again that it is the wrong use of the law that was the problem. Using it as a means to salvation, to justification. Taking people back to the Old agreement of i do something to be saved. In the new covenant, Jesus/God does the work so that we can be saved. There is never enough we can do to be saved, that is why the old covenant was against us. We were guilty on so many counts.

Candour: Sabbath ke?? Not at all bro.....Just fellowship things I tell you but Mark has even put my request to shame already by beating the original deadline.

Cheers

i meant rest na and whatever comes with Sunday. Seeing Mark's post though.

plaetton: Ha ha.

It just takes an open eye to see that there is no god , and an open ear to know that god is created in the mind of men, and that is where he lives.
For example, the god that live in your mind loves to receive tithe, and so do you.
Now, which came first, the chicken or the egg? lol.

Stalin and the Slaveship Named Jesus, which of the two do you think did more harm to the people of Africa?

I dont give a rat's behind about Stalin.
Murder and genocide as a social engineering tools had been well perfected by the Church and great people of faith long before Stalin.

By wasting my faith do you mean to say that I am wasting my st.u.p.idity quota ?

Sorry, I think my parents threw it away along with my placenta long time ago, so I never had it.

Why, Stalin's such an embarassment? You slipped on the point as expected. i simply showed how two people can believe the same thing nd yet be disagreed. You seemed more interested in telling your biography.

plaetton: Frankly speaking, and I am not exaggerating, I have seldom ever seen a calm non-conflicting religious(particularly Christian) person in my life .
I have hardly come across a christian exhuding calmness, radiating sincere Joy or love.

A christian, at all times, has to watch his back for the devil and his many demons, ancestral spirits, marine spirits, witches, etc.
A christian is so conflicted about what he believes, that calmness that comes with inner harmony, sincerity and love are rarely there.

I mean look at you, with all the time you spend defending tithe( your right to live of the sweat of the others).
That fact that you cannot agree with your fellow christians about what is scriptural is a heavy burden no one should carry.

So, there is nooo way anyone can believe in god and live right, because , like I have stated in my previous threads, faith, the belief in God , is simply the very extreme form of doubt.

That is a burden that no one should be carrying about.

oh, it hurts right? Sorry. You appear to suffer from lack of exposure or inexperience due to age. Or maybe you spend too much time with gadgets. Spend more time with real people and you'll see the christians you're looking for. Like i know for most atheists, you are wasting your faith. It takes so much faith to believe that there is no God, or in evolution or whatever else you believe.BTW, are you in complete agreement with Stalin. You know he showed his folly too?

i think the bind thing is from this passage.

Mark 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

aManFromMars: My personal troll, honored you graced the thread.


Keep doing what you do best.

i understand the emptinessof the atheist. The crave for honor, love and attention. i will help when i can. But God can help you better.

Hahahaha, losing faith and increasing folly.

Proverbs 13:16 Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly.

Better go and believe in God and live right.

highyooooooooooo. always my person sha.

Sabbath things. no wahala at all.