₦airaland Forum

R6 comes in inside 12hours, merry new year.

Tithes has been given to God as a practice centuries before Moses was born. Tithing did not start 567AD, that would be a twist of history. Again, councils and synods are not what we follow as foundation, we have a more sure word of prophecy(the Scriptures), and we would do well to take heed to the things that are written.(2peter1). Anyone thinking that there was no believer anywhere in the whole world that gave tithes, or that was faithful in any other Word of God has to be omniscient to insist on that. Christianity is not limited to Rome or to history books. To be mild, it would be like Elijah thinking that he is the only one serving God. Thank God he did not continue to insist after his presumptions. God knows every man's work and deed, history books don't.
Now, when we say that Isaiah 66 has NOTHING to do with us now, that is so wrong. Jesus said the kingdom of God is come unto you. no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. the kingdom of God is within you. Paul stated that the kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. There is definitely a sense in the which we are already in the kingdom of God. We are both agreed on the other sense in which we are expecting Jesus and His reign. Its like someone saying that Joel 2 has nothing to do with us but future. Stephen quoted Isaiah 66v1 as applicable in his day.
Isa 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

Paul alluded Isaiah 66v19,20 as applicable in his day.
Rom 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
Isa 66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
Isa 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.

The above is the 'great commission' and its attendant promise of success paraphrased. When we start looking at all those OT quotes in the many epistles of the new testament, according to the letter, i guess we would not be far from making similar deductions as IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH US NOW. let us walk in the Spirit. All being said, the point still remains that the tenth was given to cater for those that served in the tabernacle. There is absolutely nothing wrong in learning from this today. We still have folks who serve in the tabernacle. Neither Jesus or the apostles, or Elijah or David served in the tabernacle. however, it has to be noted that the apostles received far more than the tenth. The Bible states that they were worthy of it.

Num 3:12 And I, behold, I have taken the Levites from among the children of Israel instead of all the firstborn that openeth the matrix among the children of Israel: therefore the Levites shall be mine;
Num 3:41 And thou shalt take the Levites for me (I am the LORD) instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel; and the cattle of the Levites instead of all the firstlings among the cattle of the children of Israel.
Num 18:6 And I, behold, I have taken your brethren the Levites from among the children of Israel: to you they are given as a gift for the LORD, to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Today, God does not use only the firstborn or the tribe of levi, or Isrealis, He can use anyone as He sees fit and meet. It is shooting ones' self in the foot to say "it is the Levites who are over the House of God. That’s how God wanted it and it’s wise we left it like that" We all are privileged that Christ has broken the wall of partition and rent the veil of the temple. He did not leave it like that.

About Eli and 1 Samuel,
1Sa 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me forever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honor me I will honor, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.
1Sa 2:33 And the man of thine, whom I shall not cut off from mine altar, shall be to consume thine eyes, and to grieve thine heart: and all the increase of thine house shall die in the flower of their age.
1Sa 2:35 And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed forever.

the above three verses summarise the passage. God was not only referring to Eli's house as cut off. See verse 35 referring to Jesus and His priesthood. Not only Eli's house, but his father's house. Observe in verse 33 that even some of Eli's house were still serving, though with curses. We do not have to wait for the millennial reign(whatever that is) to serve God or to serve in God's house. We can still be occupied now in God's house(whatever that is) till Jesus comes. God is watching and taking note literally.

Mal 3:14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?
Mal 3:17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

When our friends and fellow discussants(Mark and Candour) say "No priesthood save the high priest who is Christ himself.", they forget that we are a priesthood, a royal priesthood for that matter. There can be no high priest without priests. The priesthood was CHANGED, remember?
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

Excuse me, we are not all the same in the body of Christ. There are elders in the body of Christ, there are babies, there are children, there are men, there are offices, and there are ministries. There are great ones in the body that need to serve more. There are overseers and shepherds. We cannot all preach on the pulpit, or all be elders, or all be pastors at the same time. There are some worthy of double double honour. We cannot shy away from these facts.

Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

When Candour and Mark say "They should therefore stop picking convenient practices from the law". they are forgetting that they told us that tithe is a burden, and they said that it is a burden that the apostles could not bear even. Now, at their fancy, they say that it is a convenient practice. Are we jumping from goal post to goal post in order to make points, or are our hearts open to understand the issues at hand? It is up to each individual.

Again, The tithe of the tithe is also a tithe by the way, and God reckoned it as tithe too. No one should be unnecessarily confused about the wordplay as it were. A tenth of a tenth is still a tenth. God reckoned it as the same. Th people gave 10% of all their proceeds to the Levites. the Levites gave 10%, not 1% of all their proceeds.
Scenario; If 10 people gave 5,000 each as tithe to the levites, the levites would receive a total of 50,000. The levites would then take 10% of 50,000(whichis also 5,000) and give it to the priest. In the end, all parties had given a tenth. there is absolutely no need to be confused or try to confuse with the words there. tithe is a tenth, not 1%.
Heb 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
Num 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Num 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up a heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.

Finally, what is the definition of money, what is the definition of currency? Money is a medium of exchange. It is not limited to paper money or cheques or coins. We have shown how food i.e agric produce was used as salary even from the Bible. In an agrarian society, it is near impossible to say that any individual would not b involved in farming. That someone is a teacher or carpenter does not exclude the person from farming. Even in our today's rural areas, the indigenes go to the farm. In Bible times, even educated Scribes and Pharisees are assumed by Jesus to be giving tithes, how much more peasants and relatively unlearned people like the disciples and Jesus.
We do not need rocket science to figure out that people go to farm and harvest in a agrarian society. Chief Obasanjo, former Nigerian President is known as a farmer. It did not stop him from more duties as a soldier, general and president. Here is one proverb in Israel.

Pro 10:5 He that gathereth in summer is a wise son: but he that sleepeth in harvest is a son that causeth shame.

You could not be sleeping during harvest time, that was their major economy. That was their job from the womb as it were. It is easier to see that these fellows tithed than to imagine that they did not. The fact that the likes of Isaac, Moses, David, Saul, Hezekiah, Caleb, etc were not recorded to have tithed or some other practice like circumcision or burnt offerings does not mean that they NEVER did these things. Same goes for Jesus and His disciples. Silver and gold(what you seem to be calling money)was not essential to the common man as was agricultural produce. A old man like Peter and Luke can boldly recall silver and gold have i not. Even Jesus had to perform a miracle at a time to use 'money' to pay tribute. The essential, the basic was what they had, and what they tithed from. today, paper money has become more essential. It has become our daily bread, and it is what we pay the tithe from. Context and maturity in understanding is key. No need to go BC on us again, nobody said that silver and shekels did not exist. What we are saying is that there were several things used as a medium of exchange in an agrarian society, and agric produce was more essential for the common man and individual.

The apostles collected far more than 10% from early christians without batting an eyelid as it were. giving a tenth precedes the law, it would be deceit to say it is limited to the law. Abraham gave a tenth, and so did Jacob vow to. These are BCs before the law. Again, the apostles do not hold the claim or discovery of freewill offerings. They do not have the patent. It was done before the law and during the law. Everyone can and should offer freewill offerings. There is no fight against that.


END

loving Lewis, go Lewis,

davidylan: Do ectopic pregnancies count?

Oh wise one, are you for abortion or against?

OLAADEGBU: Happy New Year my broda. Don't mind them they are only seeking for loopholes that will justify their blood thirstiness.

Happy New Year my brother.

cold: Spoken like a true Christian. Very Christlike

Of course, what do you expect? You dey jealous?

peterphd: @ image

You still haven't answered the question of why your god is real and the other millions aren't.I saw the part where moses' snake ate the Egyptian guy's own.Have you tested the entire religions in the world to know if they are true? For the fact that an Egyptian can replicate the snake trick,it means your god isn't the real and thus, we atheists can only accept that your god is real as Everyman accepts that his buddy's wife is the best woman for him. If you don't get this one, then....

Re-read, i already gave three reasons. Do you go about testing all the counterfeits when you find the original?

macof: image what happens to the Igbo and Yoruba pagan Supreme God chukwu and Olodumare respectively?

Ignorance is a problem, your religion cannot solve it. Get wisdom.

RESPONSE TO RESPONSE M5

We are having this discuss on tithing, why we tithe or think christians should tithe, and why we do not tithe or think christians should not tithe. We are not having this discuss BECAUSE OF lot of lies. There are lies in every place and in every doctrine. There are lies about heaven and hell, salvation, prayer, blessing, curses, and deliverance. There is almost no subject in christendom that does not have its lies and abuses. We choose to be pro-active, not driven by lot of lies. Again, we are aware that almost every christian subject is abused and misused in one form or the other. And we may not all agree on, or understand any given topic the exact same way.

1. If you don't tithe, you will burn in hell for ever.

2. If you don’t tithe, you’ll have devourers like accidents, sickness, job loss, financial backwardness etc but if you do, you’ll have plenty money, sickness free life etc.

3. Pay tithe as eternal principle to prove Abraham is your father according to Gen 14 and Heb 7

4. Pay tithe to your pastor because he is senior to you in the order of priesthood of Melchizedek

For the life of me, i have NEVER heard any of the above quote preached, except here on nairaland where antitithers keep saying it. i do not agree with any of the four statements above in an exact way. It is either an exaggeration of what may have been said, or perhaps it was never said, like i've never heard any preacher say these. Again, not surprised IF it is so said. Every teaching and aspect have abuses, and the abuses do not remove the use, real use and intended use. There is no question posed in the above quote BTW, dunno why someone would say on the sister thread that we refused to answer these questions. What questions exactly? Jesus christ is the owner of hell, and it is up to Him to determine and judge who goes to hell. i am not called to judge and no one human has a right to condemn anyone to hell. Tithing has its blessings like every other obedience to the Word of God. God is the God that makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, on the just and the unjust. There are many roads to that sun and rain(blessings). Tithing continues to remain one way. Prayer is a way, giving is a way, hardwork is a way, persistence and diligence are ways. And so on and so forth. There are many 'evil' people who do not pray and go to church or believe in Jesus, yet they receive sun and rain. This does not negate the fact that prayers have its place, or doing good, or giving, or honesty, or tithing, or diligence etc. That is a whole other long discussion on its own. We do not know about paying tithes to prove Abraham is your father. Neither are we aware of paying tithe to your pastor because he is senior to you in the order of priesthood of Melchizedek.

Now, there is nothing to shy away from. The base position of the antitither is that christians do not tithe and that early christians never tithed. Now that it is being evidently shown that some early christians might have tithed and many of the apostles obeyed the law, you folks are coming up with the excuse of being non-jewish. Sorry fellows, a christian is at liberty to choose to be a jew.
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Gala 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; i find myself one with my brothers and sisters in Christ, so spare me the putting asunder.

Logically, there should be no hassles whatsoever about anyone receiving 10%. Every Bible student knows that the apostles collected far more than 10% from early century christians. If someone collects $50 or $100 from you freely, what are we shouting about him having no right to collect $10? It makes no sense, really.

Act 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Act 4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

Some fellows died in the first century church after they lied by keeping back part of 100%. Some Levi man sold land and brought 100%. The early christians had no problem bringing far more than 10% to the church. They were ready to give their eyes for Paul, as it were.
Gala 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

The early christians were heavy duty givers. They gave everything, so much that it later affected them adversely. Like we've being saying, what we read from them and from others in the Old Testament is our EXAMPLE. It is not our law, its not by compulsion to do exactly what they did. We can learn from them, just as we can learn from Moses, Abraham, Jacob and co. ALL SCRIPTURE remains profitable to us. It's not about rights under heaven or on top of hell. We need to understand what we are doing and why we are doing it. Put things in context and prove all things. We have proven the tithe, and it works for us.

Anyone who understands context would know that the tithes were given to the levites BECAUSE of their service in the house of God, not just because they are from the tribe. It was conditioned on the service. IT WAS their pay, their salary.
Num 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Today too, we can learn from this principle as christians. The tithe can be used to help with church work, to help those who work in church and for church work. Tithe is paid/given to God. It does not belong to any pastor. i've heard a couple of popular preachers say that they do not take church salary, yet they practice tithing. Church money is not only spent on pastors, i do not know why Mark and Candour would say this. Church money is spent on many things. There are some churches that have full time workers in different sections, some pay their missionaries, some pay their instrumentalists. Some use church money in church budgets for different things from buying things, to maintenance, to programmes, to charity etc. Each church leadership has the Spirit of God available to direct them in their spending. It is not our job here, whether tithers or antitithers, to dictate how each church spends their proceeds.

We'll say it again, we are not under the law. That means we are not boxed in or limited to the law. It does not mean that we are averse to or antagonistic against the law. The law qualifies under ALL SCRIPTURE, and the man of God has the privilege of using it and other scriptures as the Spirit of God leads.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

God's ordinances or laws are not the enmity. As is becoming customary, Mark and candour shy away from the law that includes honouring parents, mercy, faith, not being a witch, not sleeping with your brother's wife. They only cherry pick on tithes and any few other that tickles their fancy. The law/ordinance of God is not the enmity that was blotted out. What was blotted out was the Old Covenant/Agreement. This has already being explained.
Again, and yet again, tithes are given to God. i have never given tithes to any pastor. It is often collected by the ushers, the offering box or bowl or bag. Each church then have their administrations on how they spend the proceeds. Some church may give from it to the needy, or use it for crusade, or for salaries, or whatever. Freewill giving has always being, before the law. It is a practice that should be done. Many tithers give free will giving. We give other offerings too, we give alms. i give my tithes freely.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

We are not saying that history should be ignored. Thankfully, i know one or two things about church history too. Our point is that church history is not as important or at per with the Word of God, the Bible. Tithes were given before church history. Tithing did not start at church history, and we look unto Jesus and His Word as our example, not at church history. Church history has its gory and dark details, we are not following church history, whatever it is, but Jesus. The Omniscient Spirit of God has given us accounts of tithes being given centuries before the law by Abraham and Jacob. God remains the God of Abraham and Jacob. He did not reject their tithes. The Holy Spirit and Moses called what they gave tithes. But antitithers assume that they know more than Moses and God, when they say that tithe is ONLY what they see under Leviticus 27. To us, TITHES is what we see as described in all Scripture, not just what is seen in one chapter or passage.

peterphd: Guy abeg don't dodge the "why should I hire you?" part. I simply mean why should I believe you over the other religious preachers?By accepting that the Egyptians had gods you realise that this means the god concept is created by tribesmen so your god is a creation of Jewish tribesmen.If Egyptian gods being in the museums is a case for Christianity, I must remind you that Christianity is pretty much not effective and dead ( if it ever lived) in Scandinavian Europe and the far east respectively.All the atheism vs theism arguments have been flogged for ages.If you want to debate Christianity vs atheism, I'm ready.

Ps: I don't know how to quote point by point and please....do not dodge the part where I asked why I should pick yahweh over the millions of Gods and gods out there.

You also insult me when you say i'm dodging you na. BTW, you can quote point by point by copying and pasting the point, then highlight the pasted point and click quote.
So, you want to hire me abi na God. i don suffer. To hire us na to repent bi that. You have to repent, confess your sins, pray etc. Anyways, God is greater than gods for many reasons. One is His eternity. He is not in the museum. He has not left humanity without a witness. Two is His book, the Bible, easily the greatest book and most influential book on earth, stunning contents anyday. Third is His salvation, the ability to forgive sins and set the sinner free. He even died to set you free.

peterphd: @image

You will notice I ignored where you insulted me by questioning my sanity.Do not try this again unless you don't have evidence for your god and you need to .... The fact that Egyptian gods could do these things also gives credibility to expressing doubt about yahweh being true.

Exodus 7:10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent. 7:11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. 7:12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

Read the passage sanely i plead.

mazaje: Accounts of the serpents in religious story books?. . .You have just shown that your god exists only on the pages of religious story books and not in reality. . .

You should be addressing peterphd. He's the one that has being going on and on about snakes and serpents, saying i'm dodging it/him.

Do you mind him? Evidently, he has forgotten that people also die in abortions and even normal and legal surgeries too. Outrage ko, outage ni.

@macof

You want to discuss probabilities or facts?

peterphd: Image, don't run away under the guise of "I don't do gossip".Christianity is not the only religion that claims to be the way so you must tell me how you handle competition.Take it as the "why should I hire you?" question.

PS: I see you have evaded the subject of the Egyptian gods being as powerful as your god.please address this and pleeeeeease, atheism is NOT a religion.Happy new year

See, it appears you have no real grasp of the religions you are putting up, that's why i do not want us to waste time unnecessarily. i showed that with the muslim case brought up. You could say little or nothing for the muslins. After have spent time showing you in a little way the difference and superiority, you want us to mve to christianity vs buddhism. After that, maybe some other reliigion, and on and on.
i've dealt with the OP and my job on the thread seems done. I'm not interested in discussing all the world religions. If you want comparism, lets stick with yours and mine, atheism and christianity, that's more logical. Than endless talk about each of the hundreds of religion on earth. i showed you God is not in the musuem unlike the so called egypt gods whom i doubt that you even know the name(s). If you sanely read the account of the serpents, you would not be asking who is more powerful.

Tomorrow is compulsory sabbath oh. We'd be replying after tomorrow thanks.
Happy New Year in advance, all.

peterphd: Good! Muslims don't know if they're saved.how about Buddhists and other religious people?The older language folks had gods that could perform the same alleged tricks as your god so why should I believe you if an Egyptian can do a stick-serpent jig which is yahweh's trump card?

Oh, so we'd have to discuss each of the world's religions or something, i dont do gossip and i don't have such time. Hopefully, we are thoroughly clear on the OP. Why don' t we discuss just atheist and christianity, your religion and mine, instead from moving about frm islam to shintoism to hindu? My God is the One who was, and is and is to come. He is the Almighty, not in the museum.

dp]

mazaje: Sure, he is presently in paradise with Allah. . .The hadith says so. . .He was taken into paradise on the back of a winged horse from the al'aqsar mosque. . .He was saved from the fires of hell to which you will go into for not accepting islam as the true path. . .

All the hadith links and koran links are on the internet. Hear from Mo himself in this hadith. Check up those links and the hadiths and koran passages quoted.

http://www.quranexplorer.com/Hadith/English/index.html

mazaje: Sure, he is presently in paradise with Allah. . .The hadith says so. . .He was taken into paradise on the back of a winged horse from the al'aqsar mosque. . .He was saved from the fires of hell to which you will go into for not accepting islam as the true path. . .

Again time to read what the muslin view is in the yahoo link
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090830185320AAtaIxt

The hadith was a vision purportedly. He came back to earth and as a good muslim did not know if he would be saved when he died. Any s Linda can have a vision, not the same as being presently in paradise, understand?

peterphd: Bro, but allah has also saved many people too and allah is also true.The bible and isn't the oldest book and Hebrew isn't the oldest language.Those that used older languages had gods they worshipped so tell me how yahweh isn't a Jewish concept.Read your bible, Moses' trick from "God" of turning a stick to serpent was matched by the Egyptians and their Gods...so much for how real yahweh is and the Egyptian gods aren't.

Dunno about allah saving anybody. i'm told(even by mazaje) that muslims simply do not know if they are saved. It is left for allah to decide at the end whether they will be saved or not. That end has not come.
The older language folks are not atheists, what is your point?Can atheists perform Moses' tricks whatever that is?

mazaje: You did no such thing. . .This is what you posted from the koran. . .

Say, "I am not something original among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I only follow that which is revealed to me, and I am not but a clear warner."

This lacks details. . .It does not mention the afterlife, does not mention paradies, does not mention anything. . .He could be talking about anything. . .I do not know what will be done with me or you where?. . .On what issue?. . .

Read the links i gave you, especially the one you complained of being by christians, i'm also a christian. The explanation is there.

http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/
muhammad_salvation.html

peterphd: Firing blanks? Naa, I'm not a Chelsea striker.You haven't answered how you know yahweh is God and The Flying Spaghetti Monster (PBUH), alusi, alekwu, olodumare are "gods".So its like you're the one doing a Torres here until you answer the question.

PS: please when you tell us how you know, tell us why yahweh created the gods.

Deu 4:28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

most gods are the works of men. i know God is God for many reasons, one is because He is true and has saved me.

mazaje: You have failed to show me where it i written that he will not be saved. . .He says he doesn't know what will be done with him or them. . .The passage doesn't mention after life, doesn't mention anything. . .Its possible he was talking about a situation that is different from what you want me to believe. . .Where does it state in the koran that he is not sure of going into paradise?. . .SHOW ME!!

i alrady did, you said they are christian apologists. i'm not interested in copy and paste or reinventing the wheel as it were, the link is still there. i guess this is your new fixation.

Of course, we cannot forget the precious examples of Abraham and Jacob, whom the Bible recorded to tithing and vowing to tithe of more than agric produce. We serve the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, living people. We have shown with evidence that thousands of early believers gave tithes. There is nothing wrong with a believer giving tithes if he so chooses. All the excuses of what tribe the believers are, or to what tribe they gave are inconsequential. Tithes belong to God and we learn from the example of these precious believers, Abraham, jacob, and the thousands of believers zealous for the law. Even the pharisee, like the ant, the birds and the lily, has a lesson to teach us; we can tithes of ALL that we possess.

Our friends(Mark and Candour) have being very shy to tell us about the abolishing of the weightier matters of the law and of the greatest commandments of the law. They have chosen to pick on the tithe, and call it the enmity, and handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us. That is untrue. Jesus did not die to nail little things like tithe to the cross and leave the weightier parts of the law like mercy, faith and love. He did not die so that we can now be witches since we are not under the law, or so that we can observe times and enchantments. He died to deliver us from the Old agreement, and from the the devil, and from sin(the transgression of the law). The disciples knew that sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

We lose the true context of Acts 15 when we fail to read it completely and from the beginning.
Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
ye cannot be saved, ye cannot be saved,ye cannot be saved. this is the fulcrum behind the whole chapter and argument. Paul had no qualms with circumcision. If you notice, the first thing he went to do in the next chapter 16 was to circumcise someone. The grouse against circumcision or any keeping of the law, was if it was done TO BE SAVED, to obtain salvation, forgivness, or justification. it is by faith that we are saved or justified, not by any law or obedience.
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Act 16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.

Evidently, the apostles had no problems with circumcision, or temple rites and all that. But they fought against people turning to the Old Covenant of do this TO BE saved or accepted or justified. That is the burden, the enmity, the handwriting against everybody. We are in no way advocaing tithing to be saved. i hope we do not make this insinuation or mistake yet again.

Now, we know that the whole Word of God is inspired by God and profitable. Our actions are derived from the Word of God and its study. We are prepared to obey it as much as God gives the grace, irrespective of histories and dates in BCs and ADs. We are aware of the dark ages and how many things were lost, like true religion and the Holy Ghost baptism and gifts. We look unto Jesus and to His Word(the Bible). He is the Author and finisher of our faith, not AD500 and AD70s. Whatever happened then remains quite insignificant as compared to the Word of God, which abides forever. the apostles took more than 10% from Christians, Jews and Gentiles when the temple was still operational. This is scriptural fact. Someone who takes above 10%, say 50% or 100% has taken more than 10%. Seems so straight forward to see, one would assume. After its been said and done, our giving and tithing ultimately belong to God. We give them as unto God. They are part of the offerings of God.


END

REBUTTING M5

We love the heading of the M5 presentation, it literally says it all. "Only certain people (the Levite, the widow, the orphan, and foreigners taking refuge in the land of Israel) were qualified to receive tithes"
The emphasis on "were qualified" shows the thrust of the argument. We are not living in the past or under the law. We may need to start reminding ourselves that every hour now, so that it sinks in. i guess the adage of replacing one bad/poor habit with a good one applies. You should write it, say it, affirm it and repeat it until it sinks, "We are not under the law" in this dispensation.

That would do for a rebut, but to help everyone and those who like long readings and explanations, we would touch on the a,b,c listed.
a) The Levitical Tithe. This is the prominent tithe, and the one mostly alluded to in the remaining parts of the Bible. This is the one that goes in for the service of the tabernacle.
Num 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Num 18:31 And ye shall eat it in every place, ye and your households: for it is your reward for your service in the tabernacle of the congregation.

Evidently, one main reason why this tithe was given was because of the service at the house of God. The reasonable and logical question to ask is if there is still service in God's house today. Can such services be rewarded? Of course, there is still service in God's house today and such services can be rewarded. We learn from inspired scriptures, and instruct ourselves to give the tithe as a reward for the service in the house of God. That is an apt application of 2Timothy 3v16. Service is no more limited to Jerusalem or to levites. Jesus has shed His precious blood to break the partition, to join together, to make one. Indeed, what God has joined together, let not man put asunder.
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

He made in Himself of two, ONE new man. That is why we are now the Israel of God. That is why we can boldly say that He has made us a royal priesthood and a peculiar nation. Below is the way, God described it in Isaiah.

Isa 66:12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
Isa 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.


That was the future that was prophesied. "I will also take of them for priests and for Levites". A sincere study of the pentateuch shows that God chose the house of Levi to serve in the tabernacle AFTER He had said that the firstborns from every family would be the ones to serve. Some place in Samuel, during the time of Eli, God rescinded that decision. God is not constrained by man.
1Sa 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me forever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honor me I will honor, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

God is not constrained as to who He can use to serve in His house. He who is able to turn stones into children of Abraham, is equally able to make and take Gentiles for priests and for levites. With God, it is not a limitation of tribe. In Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile, and IF any man be in Christ, he is a new man. If you serve in God's house, you are not limited from enjoying the privileges of service. About who was responsible for taking a tithe to the Temple, there is no hard and fast rules about it. The scriptures record that Israelites took tithes to the temple. See these two instances.
Neh 13:12 Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries.
Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Mal 3:10a Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse,

The tithe of the tithe is also a tithe by the way, and God reckoned it as tithe too. No one should be unnecessarily confused about the wordplay as it were.

b) The Feast Tithes- Mark explains this to be the tithe that the individual eats with family and levites at jerusalem. Today, we do not have to go to Jerusalem, thank God.
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

All this tithe teaches is giving back to yourself and community, not being coveteous. Anyone can as well do this today as much as God gives you the grace. You can take about a tenth of your income, and actually spend on yourself and family, not necessarily at jerusalem. We get the purpose, the purpose is the main thing, not the letter. Learn to share with your family and give back to your neighbours and community with joy, its a feast.

c) The Poor Tithe- mark somehow forgets to mention that this was done once in three years. mathematically speaking, this is like giving 3% or is it 3.33% of your income to poor and needy folks around you. We deeply encourage this yet today. This is not in any way against us or enmity. this is not what Jesus nailed to the cross, or died to stop, like Mary Slessor sacrificed to stop the killing of twins in calabar. This one is very good work, and we will continue to do it if God permits.

Notice from all these lists that not just the levites recived tithes, even UNDER THE LAW. Meanwhile, we are not under the law. We have the Spirit of God, and we know the Spirit behind the Word, and the purposes for which the tithes were given. We are not like the people in Jesus' time who made the Sabbath something else according to the letter, and they continued to think that Jesus was breaking the Sabbath. They missed the purpose and the spirit of the sabbath. Let us also beware, so that we do not miss the purposes and the spirit of the tithe.
Now, talking about whether tithe is food. We have explained and would re-explain. What is food to you may not be food to me. So if ou tithe of your own food and i tithe of mine own food, leave God to judge and accept. Jesus' food was to do the will of His Father. Adam;s food and daily bread may not be yours, but they both are daily bread. It would be disingenous and ignorant for anyone to imagine that only farmers were to suffer from the Genesis 3 curse for instance.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

A good Bible student would know that this passage is not just talking to farmers or about farming, but that it affects every occupation of man.

Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.

When we pray, Give us our daily bread, even the young ones can figure out that we are not just asking for farmers, but that it affects every facet of work we do, asking for God to provide for us. Sowing and reaping is not limited to crops and animals, this principle is strewn all over scriptures. The majority of scriptures is written in agrarian language because the economy was basically agrarian. The currency was agrarian. The money was agrarian, the measure of wealth and blessing was agrarian. This is why when God is saying "Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep. Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store." He's not just talking to farmers. Anyone working knows that the blessing is for him/her. Even today, christian teachers and lawyers say amen to the blessing. It is so simple and basic that we know what it means. it would be poor knowledge to state that the blessings are only reserved according to the letter, for farmers.
If for instance we have such pick and choose attitude to the scriptures, and read it just to the letter, one may easily conclude that tithes of animals was never given in practice. It is very rare to see tithes of animals given in the letter. It however would be foolhardy to insist that tithes of animals was never given. In practice, the scriptures record that ALL TYPES of tithe were given, even those not recorded in the pentateuch.

2Ch 31:5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

Redlyn: 30-35% of the world believes in this God. And each of this 35% has their own idea of what he wants them to do.
Jehovah has massively failed to convince the majority of his own creation.
All powerful indeed.

And what has your stats got to do with anything? God has no deadline or must to prove anything to anybody. His success is not measured by marketing skills. He is eternally successful, the Almighty.

peterphd: So why not introduce him to our Muslim brothers or he wants them to go to hell? Why did he even create other gods sef?

And who says i'm not or have not? You like most atheists are just shooting blanks running from pillar to post. Do you have any one important thing to say, or yet another question pulled out of the pocket?

mazaje: You are still talking crap, because islam is all about submiting to the will of allah. . .The concept of[b] "salvation" in the christian sense[/b] is invalid in islam. . .Mohammed never claimed he knew whether he was going to paradise or not. . . .Just show me from the koran intead of posting aimless links. .

hopefully, you now see why i said that they are not saved and their Mo was not assured of salvation. What you called aimless link is an online koran.

Sahih International
Or do they say, "He has invented it?" Say, "If I have invented it, you will not possess for me [the power of protection] from Allah at all. He is most knowing of that in which you are involved. Sufficient is He as Witness between me and you, and He is the Forgiving the Merciful."
46:9
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Sahih International
Say, "I am not something original among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I only follow that which is revealed to me, and I am not but a clear warner."

those are Mo's words from the koran, not just some vision in some hadith.

OlaoChi: Yh and when a follower of Christ realizes that 'christ is a scam' he should still be deceiving himself and deceiving people right?

i defined a christian for ou, did you miss it? the guy was never a christian.

OlaoChi: Prove he's a liar and stop making baseless statements

Those are not baseless statements, he is lying on me by saying that i quoted a passage that i did not quote. He quoted the passage, remember?

truthislight: ^^^

Oh come on. What you printed on screen is a quoted post. And not a new post.

The original post must have been from you, in an effort to reply you, he quoted your post with the bible portion and not that he was the originator of the post.

Check your post on 9:19pm on Dec.29

You must have a dubious mind, you are very much at ease to twist and lie.

Yahweh have no interest on such people.

Clean your self and mind from all this deceit and lies and be honest for goodness sake!

Smh for some people. Anything goes, "No God to judge me". Smh.

don't mind the unserious fellow, he thinks it is all a joke.