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What about the early christians? Were they averse to the law, not at all. They considered studying the Word as a more honourable thing to do. They did not discard it, or treat the words of the apostles as more important. They knew that they apostles themselves regarded the Bible. and so also should we regard the Bible and all that it says. They had a clear understanding of where their salvation came from. Those who tried to base their SALVATION or justification on the law were warned and corrected. The law of God is not just sin offering and burnt offering. If you base your salvation on obeying the commands of Jesus or the apostles, like "Men ought always to pray" or " Rejoice in the Lord always", that will not save you or justify anyone. That's if anyone can even keep those commands on their own. If anyone is giving tithes to be acceptable to God or saved, it would not work. The route to salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus. But as for knowing God and obeying Him, and being changed into His likeness/image, we look at God's Word with the help of God's Spirit.
So, some of the early christians were actually devout law keepers. that did not take away their salvation. They were as saved as anyone, and they all had great regard and agreement with the whole Bible. Hear paul again.
Act 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come
Quite similar to what John said about no new commandment.
Ananias was a disciple of Christ, an early christian. He is the believer that Jesus sent to go and meet Paul when he got saved. He was devout to the law.
Act 22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
Also, in Jerusalem were thousands of first century christians who regarded and obeyed the law.
Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

This is the true picture. It is those that want to use the law unlawfully that we should jointly endeavour to correct and expound to them the way of God more perfectly. We should not be busy as believers argue about little words like pay or give, Abram or Abraham etc. BTW, to pay is to give. i do not exactly understand the much ado about it, neither does the Bible.
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings.
Its like asking if tribute should be paid or given, or if tax should be paid or given. Jesus said Give to Caesar. Whether you call it pay or give, the important thing is that you were taxed.
Mat 17:24 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?
Mat 17:27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast a hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.
Some people asked Peter to pay tribute, Jesus gave it. It's basically the same thing.
The Bible records Abraham's tithe both as being given and paid. Its the same thing.
Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, paid tithes in Abraham.

Same action rendered as 'give' and 'paid'. We've considered Jacob and we clearly saw him talk about giving the tithe.
Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

When you come under the law, we see instances where people were said to have given the tithe. Let me quickly point out two.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

Num 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up a heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
Num 18:28 Thus ye also shall offer a heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD's heave offering to Aaron the priest.
The above passages show the pharisee giving the tithe, and the levites giving the tithe. Whether you choose to say you give tithe, pay tithe, offer tithe, render tithe, sow tithe, donate tithe, contribute tithe. The grammar is not tje relevant thing, what mattered is that you tithed. God is not seeking for literary icons or lexical geniuses, but for those who have faith, with simple obedience, worshipping in spirit and in truth.

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Presenting R3: Our tithing continues because Jesus and all the apostles had great respect for the Bible (John 17:17)

The Bible is another name for Scriptures or for God's law. It is holy, sacred and should be so treated. No part of the Bible should be treated with contempt or seen as unprofitable. All scripture is profitable and divinely inspired. When we say scripture or God's law, we do not refer ONLY to Exodus to Deuteronomy. In fact, it goes beyond Genesis to Malachi. The whole Bible, Genesis to Revelation is God's law. It's all scripture, and should be remembered, regarded and meditated on.
Jos 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
Psa 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

To us as believers, the law of God that we meditate on day and night, and in which is our delight is not just Exodus to Deuteronomy. Also, it is not just Matthew to Revelation. It is Genesis to Revelation. This is the Word that we hide inside us, that we may not sin. We tithe because of the respect that Jesus Christ had for the Word of God. He said,
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Joh 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.


Thy word is truth. That was what Jesus thought about the Bible. The portion He was actually referring to as LAW is in the Psalms BTW. In other places, He plainly stated.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

A tittle is a point like a dot or jot, a very small part. those words are self explanatory, and do not require private intrepretation for us to understand it.
What did John the beloved apostle have to say about the Bible?
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
We have many definitions for sin, this passage shows us what John taught to be sin. Sin is going against God's law. Jesus warned against breaking even the LEAST commandments or teaching men to do so. The apostles did not have this demarcation of Old Testament Bible and new testament Bible. To them, scripture was scriptures, whether written by Paul or Isaiah. They however had good understanding of the covenants, old and new, and of the dispensations. But for them Scripture was Scriptures and divinely inspired and profitable. John said there was no new commandment.
1Jo 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1Jo 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
Of course, we know what the new commandment is, that we believe in Jesus and love one another as Christ did. That is new in a sense, but every other thing is what was from the beginning, according to John. When is the beginning? Jesus is from the beginning, and the devil sinned from the beginning. i guess that beginning is familiar? Genesis 1v1.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Jesus and the apostles explained to us in scriptures that ALL the Scriptures is all summarised under love. Genesis to malachi, sorry, Genesis to Revelation is all summarised under love. Love for God, and for your neighbour. The New commandment is that we love as Christ.

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
This is the regard in which John held the Bible, from Genesis to revelations. What about James the apostle. He says.
Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Jam 2:8 If ye fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:
Jam 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
James calls it the PERFECT law, he calls it the ROYAL law. he never thought it useless, neither did he have or develop a ministry to deliver christians from the Bible. Let us get our priorities and goals right. We are not obeying God's law to be saved or justified. We have to obey it all to IF we want to take that route to salvation or justification or righteousness. i believe that it is common knowledge that that route is humanly impossible. Our obedience does not make us innocent or holy, it is Jesus and faith in Him that achieves that. We are not expected by James to speak evil of the law.
What of Saint Peter? What did he think about God's Word? He had great regard and respect for it.
2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior:
He said be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets. He wants us to remember them, to take heed to it. He calls it a MORE SURE WORD.

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Take heed unto it, UNTIL the day dawns, and the Day star arises.
What of Paul, He quoted Bible as if that was his oxygen. He used it to establish whatever he was saying. It was his authority. Hear what he has to say about the law.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Paul said we ESTABLISH the law. He had a lot to say, but i want to point us to that 7v14 where he says the law is spiritual. We should never mix God's law as a carnal commandment, the law is spiritual.

Now, concerning spoils of war, there is no command from God that people should not tithe spoils of war. There is however a passage that talked about cleansing or purifying spoils of war.
Num 31:21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;
Num 31:22 Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead,
Num 31:23 Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water
Num 31:24 And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp.

They had to purify the spoils of war, by passing the precious metals through fire and then everything being washed by water. This is a chip in by Eleazar, this is where it starts and stops when we rightly divide. We'll still be talking more on this passage in M3 so we'll save elaborate discussions till then. It however does not say that tithes of spoils were no longer acceptable to God.
We need to note that the Bible is not exactly about statistics. If something is mentioned once, it does not mean that it is not as true, or not as relevant as something else mentioned many times. They are both truths. The word of God is Truth and is Jesus. We should not be assuming that because something is not mentioned does not mean that it did not happen. i gave the example of Jacob. We know that he would have being circumcised, but it was not mentioned. That does not mean that he was not circumcised. If we both agree that Melchisedek was a highly respected priest around, and greater than Abraham, and we even hear that tithing was not uncommon in those days. Why do we insist that Abraham MUST have given tithes once? We have no records of any known INDIVIDUAL that tithed under the law i.e from Moses to malachi. Does that mean that since it was not recorded personally of them, it never happened? Or if it was recorded once, it MUST have happened just once? Did David tithe, at least he was a shepherd? Did Amos tithe, at least he was an herdsman under the law? We do not have their records, but it will be unfair to conclude that they did not tithe. Some of these great people, we do not even have record of them praying, or their circumcision, or their going to Jerusalem to appear three times a year, or giving any sacrifice, or even dying. Does it mean that we assume that they did not do this things too? What we however know is that God had this testimony of Abraham.
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Abraham and Jacob knew of and gave tithes BEFORE Moses and there is NOTHING wrong with tithe being conditional. Those should be noted. We are not under the law of Moses and should not be made SUBJECT to whatever demands Moses may have. We have a greater than Moses, and the whole of God's law written in us.

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Response to Response M2


Not all scripture can be used as a basis for Christian doctrine or as applicable to Christians. Nevertheless, all Scripture remain divinely inspired, profitable, and to be treated with regard.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

We have plainly stated and will re-state what we refer to as scriptures or God's law. God's law is not just some verses or books in the Bible. Scriptures are not just the first five books of the Bible. God's law includes Matthew, Zechariah, Psalms, Kings, Genesis etc. Again, not all scripture can be used as christian doctrine. This is however with clear and written knowledge of WHY it is not to be used. No scripture is of private interpretation. We do not pick the ones not for practice privately. God has clearly written them for us.
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.
Take for instance the scripture below. It is spoken to disciples directly but yet not for our practice. The reasons are very obvious to the average christian without any need for private intrpretations and logical reasonings.
Mat 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

The same cannot be said for passages like the below.
Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psa 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

These remain relevant to everybody till tomorrow. So, it is not really about when it was written or who wrote it. It is more about a clear understanding of God's Word and will which He has revealed and written for all to see, not infer. Inferences are private.
Certainly Abraham started out as a pagan. Actually, who did not? Nobody came as a born again christian from his/her mother's womb. We all had the sin nature in us. But thank God we came into covenant with Him. Abraham and Jacob also encountered God and started walking with Him. EVEN IF they did not, nothing is wrong with us learning great lessons from ants, birds and uncircumcised gentiles. Most of our education and learning is from them BTW. Jesus pointed out great things in the Roman centurion, and in publicans and harlots. There are wonderful things we learn even from when Jacob and Esau were in their mother's womb. Hebrews shows us things to learn from Esau during the birthright episode.
Genesis 15v18 was not a new glorious covenant to Abraham. It was something God had already told him at least twice before this time. God restated it when Abraham was talking about going childless.
Gen 15:2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
Gen 15:3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Below is the same thing/glorious covenant already made before.
Gen 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there built he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed forever.

God told Abraham the same thing again in Genesis 17 to reassure him. He mentioned it again in chapter 19. God was certain that Abraham would train up his children after him in a godly way.
Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
We can safely say that Abraham's descendants knew the Lord. Meanwhile, let us take a look at Jacob's vow again.
Gen 28:20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
Gen 28:21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:
Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
There is no scriptural reason to affirm that Jacob did not make the Lord his God until he came again to his father's house in peace. That event occured somewhere in Genesis 35.
Gen 35:27 And Jacob came unto Isaac his father unto Mamre, unto the city of Arbah, which is Hebron, where Abraham and Isaac sojourned.
There are three things stated in that vow.
1. then shall the LORD be my God:
2. And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house
3. and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

It is common knowlegde that Jacob named that place the house of God that same day. He did not wait until he came again to his father's house in peace. So why should we assume that he waited till Genesis 35v27 before he gave the tithe? Here are scriptures that show that he named that place the house of God(bethel) before 35v27
Gen 28:19 And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first.
Gen 31:13 I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.
Gen 35:1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother.
Gen 35:3 And let us arise, and go up to Bethel; and I will make there an altar unto God, who answered me in the day of my distress, and was with me in the way which I went.
Gen 35:15 And Jacob called the name of the place where God spoke with him, Bethel.
This is all before 35v27, not after. Note the re-echo below as regards name changes. There were such re-echos as we have seen in the covenant God made with Abraham, and with Jacob naming Bethel. BTW, Bethel means the house of God.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

Also, we note from Bible accounts that Jacob regarded God as his God before condition 'come again to my father's house in peace' was fulfilled. Read this.
Gen 33:20 And he erected there an altar, and called it El-elohe-Israel.
El-elohe-Israel, yes, do no damage to your tongue trying to pronounce, i almost did to mine , that simply means "God, the God of Israel".
All of Jacob's children were born before he came home to his father's house. Most of them's names had something to do with God. God Himself declared that jacob had power with God. Jacob himself recognised God in his life all through, and so did those around him.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Good job Candour. i'm to keep a vigil tonight and would not be chanced. i've being in touch with Rhymej through mail and he's likely to send our response soon. If however that does not happen, please we will be sending both the response and our presentation of R3 within the 12 hours given to R3 i.e if we do not send the response before 7am, we will send both the response and R3 presentation before 7pm saturday. Thanks for your patience and understanding.

Its your network. Those apps need fast network to work. You can try mtn r move to a better area where there is good 3G network for your etisalat. Use your browser for your facebook meanwhile.

DrummaBoy: Thank you Image for that observation. The rule actually stated that if the rule is infringed on or is seen to be, the other party should apologize; and without waiting for the moderator Candour has apologized. I think it the matter is settled that way.

Thank you Gentlemen.

settled.

Rebutting M2

We should remember that we are not exactly discussing Jacob in detail but discussing tithe. It is a discuss on tithing, not a discuss on the sinful life of Jacob. Jacob's example affords the reader the opportunity to KNOW that there was tithe before the time of Moses. It is as simple as that. It's unfortunate that most people against the tithe will try to paint to everyone that anything tithe is only under the law of Moses, and that any period outside the time of Moses to calvary is not to be regarded. They tell that your tithe MUST conform to Moses or else, it is not acceptable. Acceptable by who exactly? When we remind them that there was tithe BEFORE Moses, then they come out boldly to state that tithing was a common practice even among pagans, and that it is not God but an example gotten from pagans. Well, Abraham is not a pagan, neither is Jacob. Our God, Jehovah remains the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Genesis 28 is Scripture, and divinely inspired, and profitable. Genesis 28 is the Word of God and therefore to be regarded and respected. Until we build this important foundation as christians, we continue to risk treating the Word of God with contempt, disapproval and levity.
In Genesis 28, God made the same covenant that He made with Abraham(Genesis 15) and Isaac(Genesis 26), establishing it with Jacob. We should not decide to trifle with this account or disregard it on whatever grounds. God regarded it. This is the famous Bethel experience and covenant, where angels were ascending and descending. God told Jacob to go back there.
Gen 35:1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother.

Jacob also regarded it. He knew Jehovah God and referred to this event later, showing also that God was faithful to him.
Gen 28:16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.
Gen 28:17 And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.
Gen 28:18 And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it.
Gen 28:19 And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first.
Bethel means the house of God. Jacob regarded and feared God. how would anyone say that didn’t even want to know God. Why on earth was he looking for the blessing all his life? Why did he have respect unto the birthright and its importance?

Gen 31:42 Except the God of my father, the God of Abraham, and the fear of Isaac, had been with me, surely thou hadst sent me away now empty. God hath seen mine affliction and the labor of my hands, and rebuked thee last night.
Gen 35:3 And let us arise, and go up to Bethel; and I will make there an altar unto God, who answered me in the day of my distress, and was with me in the way which I went.

Here was a man who lived with the consciousness of God, how can we attempt to take away anything from this great hero of faith. Who does not have his failings in the Old testament Bible?
Then we are told that Jacob's vow was conditional. Like whose vow is not? Vows have conditions. Hannah's vow was conditional, Jephthah's vow was conditional. There is nothing wrong with a vow being conditional. It is biblical for vows to be conditional. And we strongly believe that tithing should be conditional. i mean, why should i tithe IF there is no income or increase? Are antitithers advocating that tithes should be given unconditionally? Tithing is conditional on the harvest. IF no salary comes in, i do not tithe. i guess that should be the sane thing to do, i sincerely hope our fellow discussants do not have a problem with this? Why should one be tithing and there is no income or salary or harvest? It's not the NEPA bill for crying out loud. Whether you have a job or you lose your job, the bill comes. Whether there is service rendered or not, the bill comes. This is not the tithe. The tithing is conditional on the blessing. Tithers take what they receive as a blessing. Tithers believe that a man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. We believe it is God that provides our salaries and incomes and harvest, that is why we tithe of them. If He does not provide them, we do not tithe, neither do we force anyone to. If anyone wants to tithe unconditionally, i believe that is your personal decision. God understands.
We should not base teachings on ASSUMPTIONS, saying tithing could not have been a regular practice of Jacob. You'd have to be omniscient to say that. That it is not written does not mean it did not happen. We're not told that Jacob was circumcised. Do we also assume that he was not circumcised?
Again, nobody said that tithes was commanded before the law of Moses. What is being plainly stated is that there are records showing that people gave tithes and knew about tithes before the law of Moses. What Abraham gave, and the tithe OF ALL that God gave to Jacob was referred to as tithe both by Moses(the writer of Genesis) and God(the Author of Genesis). God did not say "stop there Jacob, My tithe MUST be agricultural produce, or must be holy land product". Tithing is not restricted to Moses, neither is it Moses' discovery or patent.


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To the moderators

It seems it is our turn to be 'amazed', this time at the silence of the moderators as our fellow discussants are bravenly flouting the thread rules. Of concern is this for instance;
1. During the discussion there shall be no insults, name calling, maligning, critic of churches or ministers, or any intentional bid to make an opponent look bad. The discuss shall be done with the utmost respect of each person involved - conveying the Christian spirit of love. If anyone feels insulted, he shall be reporting the matter to the moderator; who holds the right to call the other person to order. If this is repeated by the same individual who does not take to correction, the discuss shall be suspended to allow for a replacement of that person.

Candour in RESPONSE TO RESPONSE OF REBUTTAL R2 severally disregarded and disrespected this. i'm not deceiving myself into thinking that these my brothers would obey rules, but at least we expect some measure of restraint or caution from the moderators so that the thread retains some semblance of purpose. This is not JSS 2A versus JSS 3B. That response is not a response at all, at least not to response of rebuttal R2. A response is an answer to something. When someone gives as a response, all he knows about number 1, number 2, number 3 and even outside the syllabus, and he gives it as answer to number 1. i do not think that is a response. i do not know the teacher that takes or marks that as a correct response/answer.
Candour's response contains so much insinuations, maligning, and intentional attempts to make opponents look bad. there was no respect or christianity in it. It was just all the allegations against the tithe, jumbled and bundled up. Many of the things we have not even said, but hetried to make it look like we've said them.
None of us(Image123 or Rhymejohn) have INSISTED on tithing in this thread or affirmed that Jesus endorsed tithing for the Christian thereby condemning those who don’t. On the contrary, Candour is well aware that i do not condemn anyone for not tithing. Why then is he nailing this allegations to "our brothers"?
He says we seem not to be sure who to tithe to and he is ready to reproduce them here for all to see. Where did he get this seemings? What sort of disrespect is that? i do not think the discussion should be a deliberate attempt to misconstrue other's words, or put them out of context in an attempt to score points. Those are just my thoughts anyway, i hope for something deeply christian not just superficial.
Statements like our brethren insist on going back to the bondage or Our brethren who preach the tithe statute as necessary/compulsory part of Christian worship dont regard the law of God at all. All they do is disregard it, belittle it and mock it.
i do hope the moderators do not just gloss over them or thank them for it, if indeed there are rules agreed to in the first page.

Rhymejohn should be sending in our Rebutting M2 soon. Thanks.

Yeah, it's a joint effort though. It seems Rhymej and i have hit the floor running as it were, lol

As children of God, we are the Israel of God. There is no jew or gentile in Christ. Jesus died for this. He died to make us one, to remove the partition. We as christians should not be advocating for division. Jesus wanted the whole world saved, the apostles went about preaching only to jews for a very long time. All the Scripture is profitable for us all, not just for jews. Any one under God, as a child of God is addressed by God in the same way as His dear children. He does not intend to write His laws in some of His children, and then leave the other children. He loves us all.
Exo 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Lev 24:22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.
Num 15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

He has made both one, he has. Why do we not believe this. The Bible clearly says that what god has joined together, man should not put asunder. We should not put asunder just because of discussion. Writing to Hebrews, or writing to Ephesians, God's will for all of us is clearly revealed.
There is no insistence or force by man that we must keep anything. We are stating our reasons for giving the tithe, not telling anyone that they MUST do anything. In the dear words of John the beloved, we say as it were.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

It's your choice to make. We give the tithe cheerfully.


END

Response to rebuttal R2


The ACTION should not be condemned for(because of) the reason/motive of the actor. This is a treatment often meted out on the TITHE. Different people have their reasons for doing things. As observed in the rebut given by our discussants, what amazes them is actually the reason and not the action. Our reasons stated so far have being that God's Word is to be regarded, and that ALL of God's Word is inspired by God and profitable. This has been foundational in our not discarding scriptures with scriptures. Thankfully, it seems we both agree that many people disregard and disrespect the law. i conclude that from this statement that "Is the Law being disregarded? My contention is that it most certainly is". As for us, we do not want to disregard the law. To disregard is to ignore or treat a thing/person without respect, with contempt. We do not want to do that to the law of God, and we encourage every believer not to disregard God's law.
God's law is good and profitable and divinely inspired. The Bible NEVER says that the law is only good when a man uses it lawfully. That would be an exaggeration as the word "ONLY" is conspicuously missing. i checked the popular translations and the word "ONLY" does not appear in 1Timothy 1v8. One word added to a sentence can distort meanings. Imagine putting or omitting the word "NOT" in a statement or oath. For instance;
1. You are my child.
2. You are not my child.
3. You are my child.
4. You are my only child.
See the four sentences above, and note how one word changes the meaning. Here is 1Timothy.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

How is the law meant to be used? The law of God is to be used as a mirror. Not ONLY by the way. i'm just stating one of the uses of God's law for explanation. What do you use a mirror for? To examine yourself, to see your state. When we look at God's law, we see a mirror that helps us to see our self and also see God.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Jam 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jam 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

These passages are talking about God's law. The first passage talks about how some people(in the Old Testament) looked at God's law with a veil, but how we look at it with open face, beholding as in a glass. The second passage is more straight as it all in the same verse. This is one use of God's law. By the way, God's law is simply God's Word i.e the Bible. It is not just some specific books or verses. Let us not assume that i am referring solely to some books as God's law. God's law is God's Word, the Bible (Romans 15v4).
Using God's Word as a mirror is a lawful way to use God's law. Like i initially EMPHASIZED, God's law is not used for righteousness or salvation or justification. Man's obedience or study of God's law is not what brings salvation or justification. It is faith in Christ that brings that. Just like i do not use my ID card at an ATM machine, however my ID card is not useless.
Gala 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gala 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

From this two verses, it is very clear and straight forward that righteousness or justification are not by the law. It is UNlawful to use the law for that purpose. We do not tithe for that purpose.
As a mirror, the law shows us our faults. God's Word shows us our faults and failings. It proves to us that all have sinned. It is written for transgressors.
Gala 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

After it has achieved this purpose, the next thing should be that we through Christ are changed. We do not use a mirror on our body or face to clean ourselves or adjust. We use Christ, as without Him the believer can do nothing. He is our righteousness and our life. When you see the fault and transgression with the mirror, then you go to who can help you. The law can not help you in that area. It is Jesus(abi na the blood of Jesus) that cleanses us. The law could NEVER do that. So, we should rightly divide, and use the law lawfully, knowing its purpose(s).
for us, we can do nothing without Christ, but we can do all things through Christ. We do not give a tithe or anything without the help and grace of God. Our sufficiency is of God. We are not UNDER the law but UNDER God's grace. God's grace helps us in time of need.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
What we do is that when we see our need in God's mirror, we run to Him for grace to help. We do not stay UNDER the law asking it for help. We might not have it all or claim to be perfect, but in our little understanding from God's word, we ask Him for help. We do not throw our hands in the air in frustration of the many parts left untouched. But we take it in its stride, one step at a time. Amongst tithe givers, we have many who have grown in the grace of giving. But we never condemn because we have received more grace or something. If you have grace to give double or more of the tithe, very well. We are not driven by the laws' demands, but by the Spirit's leading and help.
In the law of God, which is the Bible, we visibly see tithes of ALL that one possesses. This is why we state that ALL Scripture is divinely inspired and profitable. We count verses such as the below as inspired and profitable.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

shdemidemi: God spoke, He is not going to speak to you or through a donkey today. The onus is on you to latch on what He had said through the Holy Scripture.

demiii, God still speaks today. However, His word does not contradict the Holy Scriptures.

DrummaBoy: I encourage Image123 and Rhymeyjohn to Present R2. We are already behind schedule for that.

Image and co, you have up till 10am to Present R2 and Mark and co are to respond to that before 6pm (since they have posted at 6am), today.

You're welcome Mark, have a good night rest.
My oga moderator, our agreement is 12hours in between posts oh. 12hours. i'm not sure we're rushing anywhere or have a deadline to close thread. Please, let's be more patient.

frosbel: It is a pleasure to see that many of us have the spirit of discernment.

Many of us, yes. But not you frosb, certainly not you.
BTW, God does speak through people, even donkeys. He also raises the dead and chastises His own not to mention others.

21. Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

22. Hos 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

23. Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

24. Amo 9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
Amo 9:12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

25. Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Luk 11:32 The men of Nineveh shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and, behold, a greater than Jonah is here.

26. Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Mat 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

27. Nah 3:4 Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the well favored harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts.

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

28. Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written. The just shall live by faith.

29. Hag 2:6 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

30. Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
Joh 12:15 Fear not, daughter of Zion; behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

Now, you do not make reference to 30 places in a book that you do not respect. Not to mention that these are 30 different books in the Scriptures. A close look at what the Bible says of the law of God should make us respect it and regard it.
Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
The law of the LORD is perfect. We should never think that it was perfect before, and imperfect now. The law of the LORD is perfect. It is so perfect that God promised to put it in His children in our time.
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;


I will put my laws into their hearts. This is God's will and wish.
Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psa 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.
Psa 94:12 Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;
Psa 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
Pro 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Can it really be congruent with true faith that any one should believe that these verses above are not true or no more true? Clearly, i am saying that one of our reasons for tithing is because we that the law of God is truth and should be regarded. We therefore cannot say for instance that the word "tithe" is not in the new testament scripture, therefore that SPEAKS VOLUMES. To us, the law of God also speaks volumes.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
(BBE) Do we, then, through faith make the law of no effect? in no way: but we make it clear that the law is important.
(CEV) Do we destroy the Law by our faith? Not at all! We make it even more powerful.
(GNB) Does this mean that by this faith we do away with the Law? No, not at all; instead, we uphold the Law.
(GW) Are we abolishing Moses' Teachings by this faith? That's unthinkable! Rather, we are supporting Moses' Teachings.
(WEB) Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be! No, we establish the law.
(Webster) Do we then make void the law through faith? By no means: but we establish the law.


i do not use my ID card to withdraw money at an ATM machine. It is not useful for that purpose. But my ID card is not useless. The law of God is not with the purpose of saving us or justifying us or making us become righteous! It is basically not useful for that purpose. It is faith in God that makes us saved, justified or righteous.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
We are not talking about salvation, tithe is not salvation. One reason why we tithe is because we do not disregard God's law or think it useless.

END

Presenting R2 Our tithing is in the belief that the law of God is truth and should be regarded. (Psalm 119v142)

Why do we give tithe? What is our foundation for obedience? Actions are motivated in many ways, actions have different reasons. i've seen people pray because they were forced to. i've also seen people fast so that something evil will happen to another. i've seen people read the word of God to find holes and contradictions. i believe in the three actions above; prayer, fasting and reading the word of God. On the other hand, i disagree with the three motives or reasons above. These three scenarios show that the ACTION should not be condemned for(because of) the reason/motive of the actor. This is a treatment often meted out on the TITHE. Different people have their reasons for doing things. We do not all have the same reasons for salvation or believing God. i think the more important thing is that we are saved and believe God.
Psa 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth

i can safely forget everything else and go home, knowing that God's law is the truth. Jesus Christ said the same thing BTW; Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. The law of God is the Word of God, and it is truth and light. Because it is truth and light, it should be respected and regarded. We cannot or should not dismiss any Word of God with a wave of the hand. The wave of the hand dismissal is very common with the Old Testament scripture, and is even done to some new testament scriptures. This ought not to be so. To show the immense importance of the Old Testament scriptures and how rooted the new testament books are in the old testament scriptures, nearly all the 39 books are quoted in the new testament. Let me give to the best of my knowledge, an example of at least 30 books regarded and respected in the New Testament.
1. Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Mar 10:7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

2. Exo 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to show in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.


3. Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD.
Jam 2:8 If ye fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:

4. Num 9:12 They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the Scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

5. Deu 6:16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

6. Josh 1:5 There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

7. Rth 4:18 Now these are the generations of Pharez: Pharez begot Hezron,
Rth 4:19 And Hezron begot Ram, and Ram begot Amminadab,
Rth 4:20 And Amminadab begot Nahshon, and Nahshon begot Salmon,
Rth 4:21 And Salmon begot Boaz, and Boaz begot Obed,
Rth 4:22 And Obed begot Jesse, and Jesse begot David.

Mat 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Tamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
Mat 1:4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
Mat 1:5 And Salmon begat Boaz of Rahab; and Boaz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;

8. 1Sa 21:3 Now therefore what is under thine hand? give me five loaves of bread in mine hand, or what there is present.
1Sa 21:4 And the priest answered David, and said, There is no common bread under mine hand, but there is hallowed bread; if the young men have kept themselves at least from women.
1Sa 21:6 So the priest gave him hallowed bread: for there was no bread there but the shewbread, that was taken from before the LORD, to put hot bread in the day when it was taken away.

Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was hungry, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests

9. 1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

10. Neh 9:15 And gavest them bread from heaven for their hunger, and broughtest forth water for them out of the rock for their thirst, and promisedst them that they should go in to possess the land which thou hadst sworn to give them.

Joh 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

11. Est 1:20 And when the king's decree which he shall make shall be published throughout all his empire, (for it is great,) all the wives shall give to their husbands honor, both to great and small.
1Pe 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

12. Job 5:13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

13. Psa 44:22 Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

14. Pro 25:21 If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
Pro 25:22 For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.

Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

15. Ecc 11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

16. Son 8:14 Make haste, my beloved, and be thou like to a roe or to a young hart upon the mountains of spices.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

17. Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

18. Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Joh 7:42 Hath not the Scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

19. Lam 3:45 Thou hast made us as the offscouring and refuse in the midst of the people.
1Co 4:13 Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

20. Eze 36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

* sorry about that. Actually, didn't intend to make anyone look bad, especially not our dear discussants. Not every reader would care to read the whole chapter (Genesis 14) that's why we said those who care to read the chapter would find it interesting. We noted the interesting things Mark pointed out in the passage and are grateful to learn them. "Some of our folks" is just general, points noted though. We'll get there.

i'm in agreement with Candour on the new rule.

Mark Miwerds: please forgive me. It is there now. God bless.

Go and sin no more, lol.
No qualms oh Mark Miwerds.

This one get Rhymejohn hand on top.

Please, note that it is not only Sodom that came to the party or had property. The four victorious kings must have also had property which would hve been spoils for Mr Bera if sodom had won too. These four kings were more powerful and had oppressed the others for 12years remember? In battle, they did not travel light. Armies travelled with property. They needed to have food, a lot of food for soldiers. They also usually had clothing and much jewels. Remember the army of Assyria who came to fight Israel during the time of Elisha. they had so much spoil that price of food crashed like a world record was set.
2Ki 7:1 Then Elisha said, Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the LORD, Tomorrow about this time shall a measure of fine flour be sold for a shekel, and two measures of barley for a shekel, in the gate of Samaria.
2Ki 7:8 And when these lepers came to the uttermost part of the camp, they went into one tent, and did eat and drink, and carried thence silver, and gold, and raiment, and went and hid it; and came again, and entered into another tent, and carried thence also, and went and hid it.
2Ki 7:16 And the people went out, and spoiled the tents of the Syrians. So a measure of fine flour was sold for a shekel, and two measures of barley for a shekel, according to the word of the LORD.

Recall also, how David spoiled the Amalekites who had come to carry his people in Ziklag(1Samuel 30). The spoil was so much, he had to share to all his long time friends. One can go on and on with similar examples in scriptures. This is a normal occurence in battle. So when Abraham went to battle the four champion kings, and defeated them, he took the spoils. The spoils were not just the property of Bera but all the property of the four kings and the spoils the four kings had taken from other five kings. It is of these spoils that Abraham gave tithe. It says he gave tithe of ALL. He gave tithe to the priest of God, recognising that he did not obtain the victory without God's help. He won with some servents and some hired men where kings had failed. If you could see what God did here, that is when you will understand and appreciate the gratitude Abraham showed.
Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Most considerably, because of Lot and the cordial relations Abraham must have shared with Lot's landlord(Mr King Bera), Abraham of his own discretion wanted normalcy restored. Even Bera knew that the spoils belonged to Abraham. He came hopefully to solicit for his people, and Abraham said, no problem, have them. Again, have what? What originally was in your possession before you lost. Not all the spoil, not the possessions of the four kings or the others. Of the spoils, he gave 10%. Of Sodom's things, Abraham did not touch one thread, not to mention 10%. The vow had been made even before Abram met them both, Bera and Melchisedek.
Gen 14:22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lifted up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
Gen 14:23 That I will not take from a thread even to to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:

That was a personal decision, discretionary. That is why he did not speak for others. If the others that went with him chose, they could take out of the goods/spoil. They could have their portion if they so chose. But as for Abraham, he wanted nothing from Sodom. But he took the spoils from the battle, which would have being far more than whatever Sodom had. You do not give tithe out of somebody else's property. Abraham did not take Sodom's property or consider them as his spoils. just like he would not have considered Lot and his property as spoils. He went to save Lot, not spoil him. This spoils were an increase to him, given him by God, the possessor of heaven and earth.
Gen 14:19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.


END

REBUTTAL TO M1

Okay, i'm hearing that Abraham's tithe was not his own property. Errrr, i thought that would be like theft(the act of stealing somebody else's property)? Oh, for a moment, if we are to agree with such statement, the basic fact still remains that Abraham gave tithes. This is the crux of the matter, he gave TITHE. Moses of all people would know the definition of tithe i guess? Moses is said to have penned down the Pentateuch (Genesis to Deuteronomy). It is good and comforting to note that Moses makes no demarcations or clarifications of THE WORD "Tithe". He simply records that Abraham gave tithes. It makes one almost forced to wonder about the much ado that folks give today over what is tithe and what is not tithe. i mean, i've read folks talk about some definition of the tithe claimed to be found in Leviticus. Now, the funny claim is that that definition(whatever it is) is the only true definition of tithe, and that anything not answering to that definition is unacceptable. You'd be surprised we had our understudy legislators right here among people who do not believe in tithing. People who do not believe in tithing but reserve the sole rights of defining tithe.
Well, thank God, Moses thought what Abraham gave was tithe. The Holy Spirit or God, who inspired ALL Scripture, thought so too. Whether in Genesis or Hebrews as our brother has shown us, it is called TITHE. So, we are clear that Abraham gave tithe. For some who might be new to these kind of discuss, you may not readily understand why i have to explain the obvious as it were. Some of our folks argue over nothing, that is why. i mean, i've heard something as pesky as Abram gave tithes not Abraham. As in ehn, is it not the same person? It's the same way folks come to say that tithe has to be according to Leviticus or it is not tithe. This presentation M1 proves that Abraham gave tithe, we are agreed on that, i believe.
However, what we are not agreed on is that Abraham's tithe was not his own property. i do hope you read the presentation. In case you somehow missed it, the M1 presentation says that the property was for one Mr Bera, king of Sodom. For one, the Bible states that Abraham gave tithes of spoils, or of all(ALL referring to the spoils). it does not say that Abraham gave tithes of Bera's property.
Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
Heb 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

Spoils are property gotten by a victor in a conflict, the rewards and benefits of winning. In all my life and in all of scriptures, i have observed that spoils BELONG TO the victor. They are legally his by rules of engagement. This is standard worldwide. Those who are familiar with sports would readily understand this. The wrestler, boxer, team that wins takes the belt or the cup. It now belongs to them. they are the new champions. The cup or belt does not belong to the loser. This is legally legal, even Jesus did it.
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

When He came out, He said ALL power is given to me in heaven and in earth, ALL. Another passage commenting on this says that He destroyed the devil. Look at some other passages about spoils.
Exo 3:22 But every woman shall borrow of her neighbor, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment: and ye shall put them upon your sons, and upon your daughters; and ye shall spoil the Egyptians.
Num 31:53 (For the men of war had taken spoil, every man for himself.)
Jos 8:27 Only the cattle and the spoil of that city Israel took for a prey unto themselves, according unto the word of the LORD which he commanded Joshua.
2Sa 23:10 He arose, and smote the Philistines until his hand was weary, and his hand cleaved unto the sword: and the LORD wrought a great victory that day; and the people returned after him only to spoil.

There are tens of passages on 'spoils' in the Bible. All of them show that it is the property of the victor and the victor is allowed to do as he pleases with it. It is only against the accursed cities that God gave specific instructions that they were not to take the spoil. The point however, is that the spoil did not belong to the loser. Not biblically, not culturally, not historically and not spiritually.
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Mat 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man and then he will spoil his house.
Jesus is here talking about delivering a demon possessed. Once the strong man is defeated or bound, he can be spoiled. Spoils do not belong to the loser. They by right belong to the winner.

Now i'm thankful for the explanation Mike has made about the war both extra-biblical and biblical. You made many extra-biblical claims which a discerning Christian should be weary of. You maybe have some honest point, but it good to stop where the bible stops, not adding to scriptures Rev22:18,19. While i do not agree with everything, i will like to point out the major and important things. God called out Abraham out of his family and home. Lot his nephew seemed to be the only relative that followed him in faith.
Gen 12:5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.

We know that Abraham so much loved this Lot that he was willing to let him(Lot) have the best, even at his own loss. When they were to part, he favoured Lot above himself. When he heard Lot was in trouble, he got out an army to rescue him. Later on, when Lot was to be destroyed with Sodom and Gomorrha, it was Abraham doing all the pleading and hoping that Lot would not be killed. Clearly, Abraham would do anything to make Lot happy and convenient. He was like his responsibility, having followed him from their hometown. We also know that Lot was living in Sodom and was the reason why Abraham came out to fight.
Again, in summary, about nine kings were fighting, four against five. The four were the ones in charge of the region. They were the champions, and the other kings were under their rule. But after 12years, these five kings rebelled. 12 years.
Gen 14:4 Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer, and in the thirteenth year they rebelled.

It was in this anger that the four kings re-couped and came to fight their rebelling kings. It was like Israel being under some other people like the philistines or the Amalekites, and then attempting to rebel. What happened is that the four kings showed who is the master.
Gen 14:7 And they returned, and came to En-mishpat, which is Kadesh, and smote all the country of the Amalekites, and also the Amorites, that dwelt in Hazezon-tamar.
Gen 14:10 And the vale of Siddim was full of slime pits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, and fell there; and they that remained fled to the mountain.
Gen 14:11 And they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their victuals, and went their way.

It's all in the chapter, interesting chapter BTW for those who care to read. During this defeat is when the four kings took Lot. The Bible 'zooms in' on Lot as that is really what concerns Abraham. But we know that these four kings defeated not just Sodom but also Gomorrah, the Amalekites, Amorites, Horites etc. As in, they went on rampage. So it was not only Sodom or only his property involved. About five kings who had their individual armies and property were involved who fell(were defeated).
Gen 14:8 And there went out the king of Sodom, and the king of Gomorrah, and the king of Admah, and the king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (the same is Zoar) and they joined battle with them in the vale of Siddim;

Good, good. Communication has been established

please remember the 'end' when you are done.

DrummaBoy: @ All Participants

This is a suggestion and not a rule:

1. When we offer our rebuttal, let us make them wholesome and not in the tit-bit manner that we usually use on the forum; and which Rhymeyjohn has just used in his Response to Rebuttal. I am not curtailing anyone's freedom but I feel that it will be easier for our reader/viewers and people who will search out this thread in the future to read our responses and learn. It can be a bit tedious reading rebuttals in that manner. It is a personal suggestion that can or may not be taken by the participants.

2. The participants have not shown any spirit of sportmanship in the introductory posts. In the rule I had suggested that we should extend a hand of sportmanship to our "opponents" before the discuss starts; especially in the post where we listed our points. If it is not too late, I will request that we do that. It will help those reading from page 0 appreciate the feeling of love and cordiality on the thread. I am saying let each party say something positive about the person of the other party on that post. This is not so much a suggestion but a reminder as it is part of the rules.

Thank you everyone.

i had to send in that Response to Rebuttal R1. because i am yet to discuss with Rhymejohn on ANYTHING. i emailed him twice, but i am yet to get his rsponse. Now, you are free to do as you please with the Response, as the moderator, but i thought it needful to send it in. i believe the aim of having two of us is to partner with one another. i do not require someone to help me send a post, i can do with a partner with whom we discuss and conclude before postings. Please do not mistake honour for levity. i'm honouring him because he indicated sincere interest, and i am ready and willing to work WITH him. Now for instance, he's brought up R6 to R10 which we did not discuss or conclude. i hoped to discuss R1 to R5 with him and i emailed them to him before posting it here. It was because we did not hear from him that i went ahead to paste it since the discuss was to start for 7pm yesterday. To me R6 is not a reason to tithe but a basic definition of tithe. R7 to R10 is about the same thing in different words. We've not both discussed that, how am i then expected to participate in that? Like someone suggested, maybe it is better we are given more time.
Do the needful as it were, it is still your decision not mine.

Response to Rebuttal R1.


While i largely agree with the response, it has to be noted that i do not advocate that all scriptures must be practiced. That in itself will be impracticable as there are some scripture not meant for practice. for instance,
Mat 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Tamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
What can one practice with that? Nothing, i suppose. The point that i stated and which remains valid is that all scripture is inspired by God, ALL, including the one i just quoted. And all scripture is profitable, even if an individual does not know the usefulness, or if it is not useful at a particular time. i explained that by showing how we sometimes find a verse more useful to us at a time than at another time. This point is important as there are folks that believe and teach that some part of scripture is useless or unprofitable.
Practices like burnt offerings, sin offerings, feast of weeks, feast of tabernacles, Sabbath observance are clearly shown in Scriptures to be a shadow of the real, the real being Christ. It is like asking why i do not use a pager, or send correspondence often by the post man. In the present age, a smartphone does that and more. Therefore, i do not need a pager! The pager has done its part, but thank you, i can now tweet, and facebook, and nairaland, and chat/email.
Now, the christian walk or race is one step at a time. There is a pressing forward, a patient running. Nobody has 'reached there' as it were. There is room for growth and improvement. Do note that i am not talking about or referring to salvation. Nobody grows into salvation or uses efforts or work. Only faith in Jesus is needed for salvation. i am referring to the growth of the child of God into the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Ephesians 4v13). In this growth process, after one has being saved comes the desire to please God. And in pleasing God, we look at the Word of God, like in a mirror. And the Spirit of God reveals areas in our life where we can change into His likeness. It is in this that we see faults in ourselves when examining ourselves and then we ask God for grace as we repent. There are epistles to christians to put off anger, filthy communication, malice. There are admonitions to pray without ceasing, rejoice in the Lord ALWAYS and so on. Not every believer has it 100% in these. But we do not say oh i'm obligated to do all these, and since i cannot do all these, let me do none. The new testament dispensation is not exactly an obligation IN THE SAME SENSE of the Old Covenant.
When we look at the sermon on the mount(Matthew 5-7) and consider be courteous, put on meekness, longsuffering etc. There might be areas where we are lacking, but that in no way should discourage us from growing in any of these. Same with the Scriptures in every part. If we feel there is a lack in obedience in one part, it should not discourage obedience in another part. It is step by step and as God gives you grace to obey. Again, we are not obeying to obtain salvation or to become acceptable before God. Obedience is driven by the fact that the Scriptures are inspired by God and profitable.
There is no selection or favoritism. It is more a question of understanding what God is saying and the purpose for which He is saying it. We can ask God for wisdom and understanding to see how the Scriptures apply to us. And then we get grace to do as God as said. We need to have a clear understanding of the covenant/agreement that we are in with God.
Again, my point was not about the tribe or geneology of Timothy but about the fact that the Old Testament is Scripture. This is the Scripture that Timothy knew FROM A CHILD(from childhood). The fact that they are HOLY, able to make one wise, divinely inspired and profitable. Yes, they are Holy Scriptures, Malachi 3, Deuteronomy 14, etc ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God.



End

Presenting R1. Our tithing is borne out of the fact that the Scriptures are the inspired Word of God. (2 Timothy 3:16)

When we talk of tithing or of any thing or practice, there is usually a motivation, a reason. i mean, people do not normally do things without reason, right? Some people's actions are motivated by fear, some by respect, some by hate, some by love, some by faith etc. It is a statement in christian parlance that God looks at motive and not just action. Motive BTW is another word for reason, intention or aim.Motives matter and actions equally matter too. The two need to go in sync. Tithing in this case is the action and the motives are the reasons being presented. This motive is foundational to us as tithers, and that is that the Scriptures are the inspired Word of God.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
This passage says from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures The Holy Scriptures being referred to are not even the epistles or the gospels as none of these was yet to be written when Timothy was a child. The Holy Scriptures were basically what we popularly know today as the Old Testament. The writer says they are Holy, and are ABLE to make one wise. Then comes the all important statement. ALL Scripture. ALL, that includes Haggai or Zephaniah or Psalms or Genesis or Malachi. And that includes what we popular call the New Testament, because the New Testament are Scriptures. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God. There is NO useless scripture but they are all divinely breathed as it were. This is foundational to the believer to know, realise and reckon with.
All scripture is not only inspired, all Scripture is profitable. We do not all see the profit at every time. Any scripture can be used by God to come alive, from what they call logos to rhema. This for instance is why you may read a particular passage many times in a life time and yet mark or highlight some specific like you never saw it before. It became more profitable to you at that moment. All scripture is profitable, there is none useless or unprofitable. That a person does not see the profit at the moment does not mean that it is not profitable. What we need is help from God's Holy Spirit and perhaps time, and then we may see and enjoy the profit of a particular scripture or passage. The aim of all scriptures is that the man of God(which should be every believer) may be perfect and thoroughly furnished. Now, no one is perfect in that sense. But children of God are expected to press on to perfection, toward the mark for the prize of the high calling. There is a mark but even Paul the apostle claimed not to be there. So, all scripture is given so that we can all press on toward that mark. Now, we/i am not talking about pressing to salvation. There is nothing we can do as it were to obtain salvation or forgiveness of sins. i'm talking about pressing to the mark. All scripture is given for this purpose, that he man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. It is in this light that we tithe.


end

Mark Miwerds: M1 - Abram's tithe was not his own property (Gen. 14:14-16,18-20,22-24)

M2 - Jacob's vow was conditional (Gen. 28:20-22)

M3 - Abram's tithe was spoils of war, unlike what God required of war spoils under the Mosaic/Levitic Law (Gen 14:16,22-24; Hebrews 7:4; Num. 31:26-31 )

M4 - Tithes under the Mosaic Law were in no way similar to Abram's tithe (compare Genesis 14:22-23; Leviticus 27:30-33)

M5 - Only certain people (the Levite, the widow, the orphan, and foreigners taking refuge in the land of Israel) were qualified to receive tithes (Num. 18:24,26,28; Deut 14:22-29; Neh. 10:37-38)


M6 - The Blessings and Curse associated with tithing was not ill health, loss of job, mechanical problems, etc. (Malachi 3:10-12)

M7 - The Pharisees were not tithing money (Matt. 23:23; Luke 11:42 ref. Luke 18:9-12; Matthew 23:3)

M8 - The decision of the Apostles and the Holy Ghost (Acts 15:10,23-29)

M9 - The presence of the absense of the words "tithe", "tithes", "tithing", or "tenth" in relation to that practice speaks volumes. (reference the entirety of the pastoral epistles)

M10 - A Great Hearing Problem (Heb. 2:1)

Nice.

R1: Our tithing is borne out of the fact that the Scriptures are the inspired Word of God. (2 Timothy 3:16)
R2: Our tithing is in the belief that the law of God is truth and should be regarded. (Psalm 119:142)
R3: Our tithing continues because Jesus and all the apostles had great respect for the Bible (John 17:17)
R4: Our tithing remains practiced because there is no condemnation from God for doing it. (Romans 8:1)
R5: Our tithing is done to fulfill all righteousness (Matthew 3:15)
R6: Our tithing is because Jesus never condemned it and suggested that it ought to be done. (Luke 11:42)
R7: Our tithing is because Christians today are children of Abraham, and we find tithing a responsible thing to do. (John8:39,Galatians 3:7)
R8: Our tithing is done as the Bible shows that Jacob learnt about tithes from Abraham, showing clearly that tithing was practised long time before the law. (Hebrews 11:9)
R9: Tithing is scriptural as Jacob vowed to give it TO God, emphasizing and discerning the Lord's body (Genesis 28:22)
R10: Our tithing is based on scriptures that Jacob gave tithe of his all, a precursor and foretaste to bring all the tithe (Malachi 3:10)
God bless you all.

Welcome everyone.

wow. Sorry i'm late hahahaha. my oga never mail me oh. Anyway let's go there literally in some time.
Amen

Rhymeyjohn: Am available for the discussion, like i said earlier, lets begin. put the link to the thread you created for it here, and let me make my submissions.

sent you mail. please check

DrummaBoy: Ok. Let us give Rhymeyjhn till noon tomorrow. If he doesnt shiw up we start without him. I understand that since each group will have equal go on each point, it doesnt matter they amount U bring into the discourse. Mark has 10; U can still come up with more b4 d discuss end. I am puttin finishin touches with the moderator; we will see to the new thread. Let keep 7pm tomorrow Sunday as a tentative date to start.

Ok. will post points on real thread.

Mark Miwerds: I would agree. If they have such a hard time getting their points up and corresponding prior to the Discussion, what will it be like during the Discussion. Might be good to go solo or better to find someone that will be there to hand him tissues when he is facing the hard facts.

No wonder Image wanted 24 hours instead of 12. Sure you don't want a week between answers? A month? A year?

Oh so Mark is allowed to throw jabs at me and go free, but Image123 is so cruel if he tries it? There is no hard time getting points, learn some patience and willingness to wait for others and not be self centred. i know 24hours is more practical for me, that's why i suggested it. It's not impossible for one to post like say 11pm or even 1am for instance. Not everyone is so chanced to wake up and then rebut or reply before 11am or 1pm. One may wake up to go out or not be chanced for a reply till like the evening, say 4pm, 7pm etc. Anyways, i do nt owe you explanations and illustrations.