₦airaland Forum

Every human being sins. Christian or not.

Let us not be fooled by those who are distorting Christianity, claiming to be "born again," saying they dont sin.

"There is no truth in them," says the Holy Spirit.

@ woky,

Please take care of you.

Good morning all. I love you.

^^^

Thanks.

These Pentecostals and Jehovah's Witnesses just hate and envy Catholicism.

Reason and sincerity have been thrown out the window.

I do. Even in our day, extraordinary miracles happen.

Read about the bodies of Saints that have not decomposed for hundreds of years, the miraculous properties of the tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe, the Eucharistic turning to human flesh and blood in appearance etc.

God made the world. He can suspend the laws of nature whenever he pleases.

POPE II: Please do you guys believe in all the stories and illustrations of the bible?
Stuffs like opening the ocean
Living in a fish womb
Walls falling because people were singing etc .

Thank you,feel free to answer ooo or to not

Good morning yall love u .

adsonstone: yes! yes!! yes!!!

I totally agree with the bold....and I'm happy you know that too.

We are gods...and we are the Children of the Most High.

The Psalmist (inspired by the Holy Spirit) said so in Psalm 82....with emphasis on Verse 6.

The Psalmist also makes us know that we cannot redeem ourselves
as Truthislight pointed out.

So, for the RCC to say we co-redeemed/redeemed ourselves, it is teaching contrary to the Holy Spirit.

Show us where the Catholic Church says that!

adsonstone: dont lie against the Holy Spirit.

Show me where the Holy Spirit said 'Christ's suffering is lacking something (the bold)' or perhaps (in simpler words), 'Christ's suffering is incomplete'.

Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 

No be me write am for Holy Spirit.

adsonstone: If you pray to God for me, you pray in the name of/through the mediator.

If you really share in that mediatory role (between man and God), can we pray to God in Francis' name?

If I pray to God on your behalf, I have mediated between you and God. The grammar and logic are as simple as ABC for any being with even an iota of honesty...but you make it seem difficult.

Christ's priesthood is mediatory! Who shares in it shares in mediation. Shikena!

adsonstone: what does adsonstone believe?

He believes that there is only one source/name for salvation available to man (acts 4:12)....



He also believes that if there's another way of salvation, only God knows.

Is that a wrong belief? (others can answer this)

Paul knows that God can save people who dont believe in Jesus. The Pope knows too.

adsonstone: have you forgotten so soon...that you have been the one clamouring that Paul, Mary etc co-redeemed mankind with Jesus....and youre the one saying there's something lacking in Jesus' suffering which Paul had to fill.

You haven't shown where I said "man redeems man."

Why do you keep telling lies against me? Why the desperation?

adsonstone: That should NEVER be heard from a Christian (that Christ's suffering is lacking something ie incomplete).

Oh! You mean the writer of Col 1:24 was a Buddhist?

adsonstone: I'll rather believe the Holy Spirit who says ONE mediator.

And the Holy Spirit says pray and suffer for the salvation of men. That is mediation. I believe the Holy Spirit on both accounts.

adsonstone: well, this statement of mine has been adressed (not once) on the other thread...by Enigma.

It wasnt perfectly right..

Wait a minute! I thought you were infallible. The Holy Spirit deserted you then?.

adsonstone: yes.
The assembly of Holy Spirit custodians (Christians)....is the pillar and foundation of truth....not the assembly of church leaders.

They are expected to collectively uphold the truth and not manufacture its own truth.



....and I dont disagree.
The church too does not manufacture truth.

If it teaches truths outside the existent truths, then it has manufactured its own.

The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth! Twist it all you want.

adsonstone: so, what the Holy Spirit said through Him was wrong....right?

The Holy Spirit can speak one truth or more through someone who is in error in other matters.

You didn't know this until I told you of Caiaphas...acknowledge it.

Only the Church cannot teach error. It possesses the fullness of truth.

adsonstone: perhaps, I should just leave your assumptions to you concerning the Holy Spirit's words.

It is not my assumptions. Romans 2 shows that the teaching that only people who believe what adsonstone and Chris Okotie believe will be saved is wrong.

adsonstone: Yes.
That is the truth.

this is a lie from Human tradition.

To justify this from the bible, you keep twisting the bible.


yes, I agree with the Holy Spirit.
I dont agree with the RCC that say men redeem men.

why dont you want to stop Lying againt the Holy Spirit?

Regarding the bold, the first.
If you mean men work for the salvation others (by taking the Gospel to them), I agree.

But if you mean men redeem other men.....I strongly disagree.

'Men suffer for the salvation of men.'--The Holy Spirit.

adsonstone: Regarding the second, I am dissapointed in you as a Christian.

You mean Christ's sacrfice was incomplete and Paul had to complete it?!

'Paul suffers to make up for what is lacking in the suffering of Christ.'--The Holy Spirit.

adsonstone: Yes, I totally agree with the Holy Spirit that all christians are Priests....do you think I disagree?

No, I dont.

My point is; there is no difference between my priesthood, Italo's priesthood and Francis' priesthood.

Or do you reject that?

Christ's priesthood is mediatory. If you share in it, you share in the mediatory role.

adsonstone: maybe I should just leave you in you 'mis-interpretation' of what the Holy Spirit said.

'The misinterpretation is: only people that believe what adsonstone believes will be saved.'--Romans 2

adsonstone: You say humans redeem mankind?

Sometimes, I just find it hard to believe you're really a christian.

Alluding the redemption of man to man...put simply;
Man redeemed himself.

LIE! Show me where.

adsonstone: How do I know?
I know the Holy Spirit can never contradict Himself.

He says in the bible that there is ONE mediator.
All other places He talks of that Mediator, He uses the definite article 'THE'....so anyone that brings anyother mediator with Christ is in oppositon to the words of the Holy Spirit.

thats NOT mediating!

He doesnt teach that we are mediators and redeemers!
Stop lying!
Is it not a sin to lie in the RCC?

When Christians pray, we pray through THE Mediator.
Or do you Pray in your name or in Francis' name?

If I pray to God for you, I have mediated between you and God.

All Christians are mediators.

adsonstone: I think you have forgotten the men I mentioned...maybe you should go back to that thread.

....and by the way, when Chukwudi labelled some of them Roman Catholics, I did not argue with him.

Anyway, all the Church fathers were Catholic. Including these 2 who refer to Mary as Madiatrix.

adsonstone: ....and the bible compilation story has been settled nau (you have your bible and you did not compile mine for me, of course, we dont use the same bible)...or do yo want us to start it up again?

It was you who said "The Bible was compiled by the Church in Rome (probably Catholic) in the 4th century"

Not "my" or "your," but "The Bible."

The statement speaks for itself.

Anti-Catholic JW now ignoring Paul's writings and throwing insults at me instead.

Tomorrow, he'll say "where did the Bible say that?"

For now he despises the words of the Bible.

The lunacy of anti-Catholics!

adsonstone: Oh! Really?

Mark 16:20 says
But they going forth preached every where:
the Lord working withal, and confirming the
word with signs that followed.

That's working with/for God.

God's work is redemption of mankind. It is you that alluded to that.

So any "co-worker" is a "co-redeemer."

Christians suffer for the salvation of mankind. It is the Holy Spirit that says so.

Why can't you just put your pre-conceived error aside and believe him?

adsonstone: Yes, all these are facts from the bible.

Don't mix truths with lies.

Paul being a co-redeemer and a co-mediator is lie from human traditions.

Who alluded to the fact that God's work is redemption and mediation? You.

Who said Paul was God's "co-worker?" The Holy Spirit, not human traditions.

Who said humans suffer to save mankind? The Holy Spirit, not human traditions.

Who said Paul completes what is lacking in the suffering of Christ (for redemption)? The Holy Spirit, not Human traditions.

Just lay aside your hatred and envy of Catholicism and accept the truth.

adsonstone: Regarding the bold, thank God you acknowledge that.

So, what is the difference between your priesthood and the pope Francis's priesthood?

The lesson you should learn from that is that Christ being the sole High priest doesnt stop Christians from sharing in his priesthood.

But you have completely avoided that and refused to acknowledge it...and are now bent on diverting to another topic. Clutching at straws!

If you cannot acknowledge that simple principle, there's no need to discuss other issues with you.

You'll just keep hopping to other topics when you are disproved, instead of accepting the truth.

adsonstone: Our labour with/for God is labouring in/for the Gospel.


....and yes, we are partakers of Christ's suffering because we were crucified with Him....we paid for our sins in His death, his death paid it all for us.

Paul encourages his readers to participate in Christ's suffering in the future.

Why?

adsonstone: Did Paul die for your sins?
If he did not, he did not save you from your sins.

He did not suffer to save us from our sins, He suffered laboured to bring the Good news of salvation to us just like the Jws 'suffer' to take the Gospel to as many as possible.

The Holy Spirit says Christians suffer for the salvation of mankind.

You can twist it all you want.

adsonstone: The Holy Spirit says ONE mediator!

The Catholic Church also says there is ONE mediator!

....and never say there's another.

1. How do you know the Holy Spirit never says there's another? I thought you believed the Holy Spirit teaches everyone personally. Do you know what He teaches the other billions of people who have lived on earth?

Your whole theology just has no legs to stand on.

2. The Holy Spirit actually teaches that we are all mediators because He teaches us to pray and suffer to bring men closer to God.

That is MEDIATING! At least to any honest person.

adsonstone: I will believe the Holy Spirit, not the roman catholic church fathers.

Oh! So Cyril of Alexandria and Ephem of Syria are now "Roman Catholic Church Fathers?"

These were the same people you were trying desperately to claim belonged to the universal Church, not Roman when we showed you they were the ones who compiled the Bible.

So when they compile the Bible, they are Eastern Orthodox but when they say Mary is Mediatrix, they are Roman Catholic?

This is gross hypocrisy to say the least.

adsonstone: I want you to quickly clarify something before we continue.

Is the Holy Spirit available to all christians or Only Church leaders?

The Holy Spirit is available to all human beings...and he tells all of us: "The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth!"

adsonstone: Now, the Holy Spirit says the church is the foundation and pillar of truth.

Does the church manufacture any 'truth' of its own?

Truth is not manufactured by anyone. TRUTH JUST IS! And "the Church is its pillar and foundation," says the Holy Spirit.

adsonstone: This is TRUE??

Prove it from the bible....perhaps by citing an example.

Caiaphas. He was in error, yet the Holy Spirit spoke through him.

You need to read the Bible more with an open mind.

Now I know you will not give up but look for another irrelevant question to help you avoid the truth. - clutching at straws.

adsonstone: That's what you think.

That is what the Holy Spirit thinks. He is the one who inspired Romans 2.

You need to read your Bible more with an open mind...and succumb to truth when you see it, not try to clutch at straws to avoid it.

adsonstone: By the RCC, it says the pope is infallible in issues concerning faith and morals.....it is silent on the pope's infallibility in matters outside faith and morals....and that's the problem.

Can we conclude that the RCC does not know the 'fallibility' position of the Pope on issues outside faith and morals?

You can conclude what you like about what the Church doesn't say.

I am here to defend what the Church says.

adsonstone: No Paul doesn't sound in anyway roman catholic.
He sounds Christ-like.


Roman Catholic says....we are redeemers of mankind ie we sinners....redeemed ourselves.

Paul says he and his associates suffer for our salvation i.e (by your very poor logical application) they save - redeem us.

And he said when you and I suffer, we share in their suffering (for the salvation of sinners).

Paul still sounds very Catholic. Indeed he was!

And if in sounding Catholic, he sounded "Christ-like," it is because Catholicism is Christ-like.

Why dont you see the truth and accept it.

It was the Holy Spirit that wrote those verses, not me.

adsonstone: No it is not.

Is it also a crime to question you?

It is a travesty to only question Catholics.

Sal C: You are really scarce these days.

Na work, my dear.

And the small time I spend on nairaland is on the war front. Lol

Good evening brothers and sisters.

I love you all.

1 Cor 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building.

Haphazard-thinking anti-Catholic sees that St. Paul wrote something, yet he desperately tries to make it look like a Catholic 'invention.'

Well...if St. Paul sounds so Catholic, it's because he is Catholic!

adsonstone: Syncan defined infallibility, you defined infallibility....they were slightly different.

I asked you for which one to believe.....and you have given no reply.

You're losing the plot.

Read the definition of the Catholic Church...then let us have your issues with it.

It's no use discussing what you see as disparities between my definition and Syncan's.

Is it hard for you to read about what you're criticizing?

adsonstone: talking to 'Christians'
Jesus said when the Holy Spirit comes, He'll guide us into all truth.

Jesus was talking to the Apostles - the leaders of his Church. And the Holy Spirit confirmed what I'm saying when he came. He said "The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth."

I dont know what you're still fighting for.

adsonstone: since the truth is 'many things', kindly state some of these 'many things'.

Jesus, his teachings, his death and resurrection, God etc.

adsonstone: no, we dont.
The Holy Spirit does not guide one into error.
If one is in error, once He comes, He guide the person into truth.

The Holy Spirit can act on/through people in error. THIS IS TRUE!

The working of the Holy Spirit on/through an individual is not proof that the person is not in error. THIS IS TRUE!

adsonstone: Destroyed?

So, this also applies to those who know the Son but side-step Him....right?

You said that, not me.

All I know is that I have already thrashed that rubbish view that only those who believe what you believe are heaven-bound.

There is no need to clutch at straws.

adsonstone: Now, this is perhaps the worst (so far) of all...from the RCC

Jesus Christ is not the sole redeemer of man.
Paul (and other Christians) are also redeemers of man and mediators between God and man.

Paul Himself needed to be saved and He was saved....by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Is it the Catholic Church that made Paul a "co-worker" with God? No. It was God

Is it the Catholic Church that alluded to the fact that God's work on earth was redemption and mediation on this thread? No. It was you.

Jesus is the sole high priest but all Christians share in his priesthood.

adsonstone: yes, we are fellow labourers with God, we are God's tools.
Our part of that labour is the evangelism ie preaching the Gospel of Christ to all and telling them about the finished work of Christ.

Do you want us to go through this study?

Which yeye study? Why not show me the Bible verses that say that our only part of the labour is preaching?

1Pet 4:13 says "But rejoice insofar as you are sharing Christ’s sufferings, so that you may also be glad and shout for joy when his glory is revealed."

And "suffering" there wasn't talking about preaching.

Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Did you see that?

2 Cor 1:5, 6 For just as the sufferings of Christ are abundant for us, so also our consolation is abundant through Christ. 6 If we are being afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation; if we are being consoled, it is for your consolation, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we are also suffering.

Did you see that?! Paul suffered for your salvation...and it wasn't mere "preaching."

RCC says she's a co-redemtrix contrary to the Holy Spirit

adsonstone: The Holy Spirit says ONE and He names the ONE...Jesus Christ.

Yet, you claim you're inspired by Him.....is the Holy Spirit then contradicting Himself?

I seriously dont know what your problem is. I am beginning to think it is plain hatred and envy.

Jesus is the only Son of God, yet we are all sons of God.

Jesus is the only High Priest, yet we all share his priesthood.

Jesus is the only one who "worked"(redeemed/saved us), yet Paul says he is a "co-worker" and he suffered for our salvation.

What else is your problem with our co-redemptrix?

Even the Church Fathers saw Mary as Mediatrix.

"Hail, Mary Mother of God, venerable treasure of the whole world . . . it is you through whom the Holy Trinity is glorified and adored . . . through whom the tempter, the devil is cast down from heaven, through whom the fallen creature is raised up to heaven, through whom all creation, once imprisoned by idolatry, has reached knowledge of the truth, through whom nations are brought to repentance. Cyril of Alexandria (qtd. in Luigi Gambero, Mary and the Fathers of the Church: The Blessed Virgin Mary in Patristic Thought)

Ephrem the Syrian says, "With the Mediator, you are the Mediatrix of the entire world";

Antipater of Bostra, a father of the Council of Ephesus, wrote about the Blessed Virgin in the fifth century, "Hail, you who acceptably intercede as Mediatrix for mankind" (qtd. in Gambero, Mary and the Fathers).

adsonstone: If I may ask; why are you directing me to the op?

Yes. Is that a crime?

adsonstone: wait, wait.
Syncan said the infallibility doctrine talks about only infallibility in matters of faith and morals....and He said, outside that, they're fallible.

Are you saying that is wrong....because I have believed him.

If thats wrong, tell me so I'd believe the infallibility doctrine is silent about matters outside faith and morals so, I can safely conclude that the doctrine doesnt even know the popes' position (of fallibility) in other matters...

Are you still ready to talk about Catholic doctrine?

Do you want to provide the teaching of infallibility as stated by any reputable Catholic source?

Let us see what you are challenging.

Read...read before you challenge.

adsonstone: Yes, that's true.

For Christians, the Holy Spirit is our 'personal' teacher.

Or is that false?

I dont know about that. Show me where the Bible says that.

adsonstone: Yes, I agree.

If I may ask, what exactly is 'the truth'?

That is a broad question. The truth is many things. What matters to me now is that The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth (whatever "the truth" means).

It is the Holy Spirit that said so.

adsonstone: I don't, neither do I agree because I DON'T KNOW.

What I know, I will say. There's only one source of salvation which is Christ.

If God will save anyone outside Christ, only He knows.

So you also believe it is possible for God to save people who are in error. If he can do that, then the Holy Spirit acting on/through someone is not a guarantee that he is not in error. Do we agree on this?

adsonstone: I hope you won't reject proof.

www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/841.htm

I have already given proof of this from Romans 2 and destroyed what appeared to be your earlier thinking that only people who believe what you believe will be saved.

adsonstone:
the problem is that you have taken another mediator with the sole mediator that exist between God and Man.

italo: what was Christ's work on earth?

adsonstone: Christ's mission??

To reconcile God and Man.

italo: Is this "mediation" and/or "redemption?"

adsonstone: Both.

Redemption and Mediation.

1 Cor 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building

You see that even St. Paul saw himself as God's co-worker. And since God's work on earth was to redeem man and mediate between man and God, Paul was co-redeemer and co-mediator.

What else is your problem with Catholics calling Mary "co-redemtrix?"

adsonstone: no, you failed to answer mine and instead, you asked yours.

When you answer mine, I'll attend to yours.

Paul's advice to Timothy on health: does it have a possibility of being wrong (Since the RCC says Paul was fallible in that aspect)?

Just answer honestly, you wont die.

The doctrine of infallibility has nothing to do with matters outside doctrinal matters of faith and morals.

The very definition of infallibility by the Church provides that the matter is one of faith and morals.

Simple and short!

Do you want anything else before you answer me?

adsonstone: Christ's mission??

To reconcile God and Man.

Is this "mediation" and/or "redemption?"

adsonstone: do you mean the Holy Spirit does not reach people directly but through the church?
Then of what use is the Holy Spirit given to individuals?

oh! I see.
If the Holy Spirit isn't useful to other christians, God would not even have given them the Holy Spirit.
Perhaps, He wud have just given it to the 'church leaders'....however, because It so pleased God to teach christians as individuals, He gave everyone the Holy spirit.
However, the church (assembly of christians) is there to strengthen our faith and Knowledge.

The Holy Spirit can reach people outside the Church. He can even reach people who dont believe in God. Does it mean these people are in possession of the fullness of the truth? No!

It is the Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth. So says the same Holy Spirit.

adsonstone: but your pope declared that muslims were on a way to God (knowing they side-step the Son)...

You disagree? You think they, like all of you who possess partial truth cannot make heaven?

adsonstone: True or false?

I dont know, until you show proof.

BERNIMOORE: bolded above, i concur! because in a desperate bid to justify the Trinity , and the catholic as a church in their bid to fashion a mediator between God and man outside Gods command, and since they equal God with jesus, mary has to rise to the challenge and position of jesus as "salvator"

What was Christ's work on earth?

adsonstone: thats not the point.
The point is that there's a possibility of error in other matters outside faith and morals since they are fallible in them...

Yes or No?

You failed to answer my question: are you infallible in every human field?

adsonstone: David is NOT God, He is a man.

Jesus, Son of Man.
Jesus, Son of God.

Calling David God is blasphemy as we both know.

Mary, mother of Jesus, (mother of God according to Rcc)

All women that do God's will, mother of Jesus (according to Jesus Himself).
I wonder why the RCC has refused to accept them as 'mother of God' too....infact, worse of all, they are called 'CROWD'.

If Jesus is Son of God and Son of Man according to you, are you then saying man is God?

Also, Jesus said anything you do to the least of his brothers has been done to him.

Does that mean the least of his brothers are The Christ -The Messiah -The Almighty Father?

*more trolling to come*

the problem is that you have taken another mediator with the sole mediator that exist between God and Man.

You say so.

I ask: what was Christ's work on earth?

Ask the OP to show biblical proof of his statement!

adsonstone: stop being a coward, be a 'man' for once and stop trying to 'hide' under a flimsy excuse.

The op says essential doctrines almost all denominations agree on....and He lists them.

You requested a proof from the bible....and you were given a passage that emphasises the importance of what He listed.


You on the other hand, you're 'trying to hide' using flimsy excuses to avoid defending what you declared and what the Rcc declared....

The Rcc says 'essentials'.....

As a rep of the Rcc, tell us those essentials.

And you, declaring those that believe Peter's life teachings are in those letters 'dull ones'.....yet unable to show your truthfulness and honesty by stating at least two of Peter's teachings outside those letters....even until now.

If you don't provide Peter's teachings outside those letters, don't be offended if you're seen as a 'duller' one.

^^^

What do I not see as normal?

That you have taken only a few statements and prayers out of the millions said by the late Pope and the Church, and given it the meaning that you want it to have...totally ignoring what is meant by those who say them, and the multitude of other statements and prayers by the same people that prove you and your teachers to be wrong.

But I know that this behaviour cannot be wrong to you.

How can you tell whom another man worships? I am just asking.