₦airaland Forum

adsonstone: and sincerely,
I respect you a lot likewise Syncan.

So far, your replies have been well presented.

Thank you.

Zikkyy: ...what about the people interpreting the bible? are they all correct?



where?

Zikkyy: Leave the bible out of this infallibility matter. if you are not infallible, on what basis do you accuse the other person of propagating false doctrine? So if you agree you are fallible, then you can only give your opinion which may or may not be correct. abi

They will not give you a straight and honest answer.

If they could, they'd be validating Catholic teaching.

Zikkyy: We are not saying the same thing regarding the highlighted bit. Who is a Christian? and who decides what is truth? this is the part i agree with italo, you have to be 'infallible' to make that statement believing you are 100% correct.

Common sense is still available. Deo gratias!

Joshthefirst: people were first called christians because of their radical lives in antioch, probably In mockery.

Parts and bits of letters that make up the new tastement today were already in circulation in those times.

Christianity started in 33AD. The Bible was compiled and canonized almost 400 years later.

Historical fact!

Who else is reading/has read "Evangelii Gaudium?"

The Holy Father encourages us to imbibe and express the joy of our encounter with Jesus...like the Apostles always did, even when it is hard to be joyful.

One powerful quote I find there is: "There are Christians whose lives seem like Lent without Easter."

I also like two more things:

1. He speaks in very simple and practical language.

2. It is loaded with scripture citations. In fact, he uses scripture to speak.

I love it already...and I'm only on Chapter 1.

Here's the link again: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium_en.html

Good morning all. God bless your day.

POPE II: When I heard the savior call my name
I was sinking deep
In sin and shame
Now my life will never be the same
Since I heard the savior call my name.

Proudly Catholic
Glory to Jesus, honour to Mary.

Please keep praying for Aladdin.

Good one brother.

We must rise from the mud of sin and wash ourselves clean.

Two things that are always a hindrance to our prayers:

Doubt & sin.

slye: Now. ....who do i believe?

The same way some Christians would ask: who do I believe, the Sunni or Shia?

I say: believe what you have sincerely evaluated to be true.

For starters, who gave the interpreters of King James version and NWT the authority to interpret scripture for all humanity?

If they can, why cant you and I?

Joshthefirst: this is a blatant lie. Stop spreading lies here. I have said christianity is more than just religion. Those who practice empty religious practices are shallow. And do not know God.

I agree with the bold. Just like I agree that Christians are more than just men.

But we are still men...as Christianity is still a religion.

King James version and NWT are mutilation of the Bible.

It is true.

slye: i said some quotes from the Bible and i asked you pple to defend them. buh no one is answering me.. ...if you're going to convince pple to join your creed, then you must answer the questions asked.

First of all, do you believe in the Bible as Mohammed told you to?

If you dont and you are a Muslim, that would be hypocrisy.

If you do, then you should be able to defend the Bible you believe in.

Zikkyy: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

"Useful," not "sufficient."

Food is useful for well-being, but not sufficient.

Education is useful for making a good living but not sufficient.

I can go on and on.

adsonstone: ....but I showed you where God explicitly says graven images should not be made...not necessarily idols.

You showed me where God said images should not be worshipped (which also supports my position because it also says it should not be made in the likeness of any creation)

are you gonna disagree with the parts thats says graven images should not be made?

Or do you mean God was wrong/joking to have said that Images should not be made?

And I showed you the part that said nothing of any likeness of anything in heaven, on earth and in sea should be made.

That makes you a sinner. No?

@ adsonstone,

It so happens that you have my respect on this thread.

You're the only one challenging the Catholic faith who is trying to reason it out logically.

The rest I see here are not interested in reason.

They just want to vomit their frustration on us, and that's not what this thread is for (Someone correct me if I'm wrong).

...and I thought you were one of the worst...

adsonstone: is Syncan not a catholic?

Am I a JW?

Can we continue our discussion?

You guys said images are not forbidden.

...and you say every sculptor, artist, person who has a picture of anything is sinning?

I would like for you to tell me whether those "Bible-believing Christians" are right or wrong.

Truthislight and every other non-Catholic I have ever met say you are fallible.

JMAN and Truthislight say Jesus is Archangel Michael.

Are they right or wrong?

adsonstone: I did not imply that, you did.

....God did not also explicitly state the commandments the way the RCC states hers.

Elementary Logic.
Pick up any RCC bible....perhaps Douay Rheims,
open exodus 20,
write out all the points separated by a full stop and reason.

Sorry. I thought you had something worthwile for me to defend on this issue.

shdemidemi: History! Spare me the history, I am not here to argue history but to make a statement that Christians believe the bible is infallible.
what is wrong in that statement? except you have an underlying agenda, the statement is true minus your inference.

Vain babblings again. You seem to think I am against your religion, I am not bro.

You dont want to talk about historical facts.

You dont want to reason logically.

You dont want to talk about scripture.

You just want to say anything that comes from your wild imagination.

Can you excuse us so that we can discuss with those who want to reason logically, talk about scripture and argue on fact?

shdemidemi: Is this what God arranged or what you feel you can put together on God's behalf?

If Church leaders are fallible, why should they be believed when they could be teaching error?

adsonstone: The verse/passage cannot be treated in isolation, and it should not also be misunderstood.

It shows God is against making/worshipping images.


I suggested those other passages to show you that God is also against 'making images' as the exodus 20:4 says alongside worshipping them.

....because, you said God isn't against making images.

Then what do you do with the numerous verses I gave you showing that God is not against making images?

You just throw them away?

Zikkyy: On the issue of Papal infallibility

i would say infallibility is needed in a church structure for there to be order church leaders need to be infallible (whether their teachings right or wrong) to avoid disintegration of a church. I don’t think infallibility is something you fight over; you either accept or reject it. Catholics will accept Papal infallibility while others (non catholic) may reject. rejecting the Pope’s teachings may result in him/her ‘porting’ to any other church (e.g. frosbel ). There is also the option of just accepting that part you are comfortable with. It’s the same for every other church; e.g. Adeboye or Oyaks can be considered infallible in the eyes of their members (at least to the extent only the pastor can ‘reverse’ himself).

The thing is they all say they are fallible...but the all act as if they are infallible when they declare 'infallibly' that the Pope is fallible.

That is hypocrisy!

How can a fallible person be certain of that?

shdemidemi: Declare the Bible closed! You must have a big chip on that shoulder of yours.

It is historical fact!

shdemidemi: What I am saying is, christians do not believe, talking about the INFALLIBILITY OF SCRIPTURES, that, from one cover to the other, there is any mistake of any sort in it, either upon natural or physical science, or upon history or anything.

Truthislight believes that the Bible writers were fallible, meaning the Bible is fallible. He is not a Christian?

Who gives you the right to say this?

Where does the Bible say what you said above?

shdemidemi: But, Roman Catholic believe one or two things can be added or subtracted by their leaders.

We dont believe that. We are here to talk about Catholic doctrine, not Shdemidemi's version of Catholic doctrine.

shdemidemi: You definitely do have a right to believe whatever you want to, don't you? So these folks really have to stop being forceful and belligerent with the way they present their belief to you.

Especially since they say they are fallible...meaning they cant be certain of their beliefs.

slye: ohhh... sorry, I'm a Muslim

If you are a Muslim, why are you telling Christians to defend their belief.

Mohammed said our belief is from God. No?

shdemidemi: I really do not understand why most people go into vain babblings with the Roman Catholic folks. They believe they ( their leaders) can add and take out of the Holy Bible, other Christians believe the bible is the spirit of truth hence it is inerrant. Why don't you guys leave them to add and take away what best appeal to them without compelling them to stay within the confines of the scriptures.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT IS A LIBERAL WORLD, isn't it?

1. You lie. We Catholics dont believe we can add or subtract from the Bible, else we would not have declared the Canon of the Bible closed.

2. Truthislight believes the Bible was written by fallible men, meaning it could contain error.

Are you saying he lied?

New Jerusalem Bible, New American Bible, Duoay-Rheims etc.

Literary styles vary...content, the same.

You haven't told me your creed.

adsonstone: regarding the bold:
....and who told you that my 'Daddy' is not the visible Head?

Only if your 'Daddy' is Pope Francis. He's the visible head.

slye: Then where's the original?

Read the Catholic Bible.

RikoduoSennin: Harden my heart? You are misunderstanding me, I am a practical man, and I believe that the bible is God's word-absolute truth.

@topic, thanks for that source Rev 1:17. With that in mind, Is the bible contradicting itself or Was Jesus then lying in the following Scriptures; John 14:28, John 20:17, 1 cor 11:3, col 1:15, Rev 3:12,14,etc or should I ignore the fact that no one prayed directly to Jesus in the bible, Jesus repeatedly said he was sent by the Father (indicating the superiority of the Father), Jesus was tempted by satan (James 1:13 says otherwise about God), Satan called Jesus son of God-was not even afraid of him, offered him the kindom of the World (I doesn't make Sense to tempt YHWH with that), Jesus did not rebuke Satan-Look closely at his reply-he was referring to someone higher who was able to rebuke satan(Matt 4:4-, Jesus never claimed what he spoke was his own, etc.

All bible references too shows Jesus is a seperate being from the Father (through vision he was seen standing or sitting at the right hand of YHWH). How are they one-are they fused together physically? Are they Clone with one mind and thought through a mental link? How is a father and Son equal? (Why are they called such to begin with?) If the Holy spirit is one person- how can he possess thousands of people at a time? Why did the Holy spirit possess Jesus Christ?

Questions like this and they bible based answers makes the trinity doctrine FALSE, The early Christians in the bible did not categorically use or believe in it (they did not mention it).

In the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy spirit does not mean trinity just like in the Name of paul, and Peter, and Jude does not mean they are one person. How really is a husband and wife one?- since they are two different beings.

I dont like it when people operate this way.

One question is answered. You have neither accepted nor refuted the answer given...but you've gone on to raise 1000 more issues.

Experience has taught me that only dishonest people act this way.

First things first: do you agree that Jesus is the first and the last?

slye: History has shown that the Bible has been changed. The revised American standard version(1952 and 1971), The American standard Bible and The new world Translation have expunged certain verses that are found in the King James version. The readers digest has reduced the old testament by 50% and the new testament by abt 25%. who's making the changes, God or Men ??
"but in vain they do worship me teaching for doctrines the commandment of men" (Matthew15:9)

King James version is not Bible. NWT is a total mutilation of the Bible. It is an adulteration of the Bible.

The Bible hasn't changed.

If you use a fake product to show that a product has been changed, that is very poor logic.

Has Guinness Stout changed because there are fakes of it bearing the label?

thorpido: You are a catholic so you can't know any better than you've been taught.
Christianity is not a religion.

Papa that knows more than what he's been taught, define "religion!"

And tell me whose definition you used.

adsonstone: Really?
Well,
show that you have agreed with syncan then we can talk about the rest.

Your mouth dey sharp as you dey tell me to show that I agree with Syncan. When I asked you if you agreed with JMAN in the other thread, you suddenly went from very vocal to silent.

Yes, I agree with Syncan.

JMAN, Truthislight and all the other Protestants I have ever met say you are fallible. Do you agree with them?

JMAN and Truthislight say that Jesus is not God, but Archangel Michael. Do you agree with them?

adsonstone: did you not read that in His law?

Or when did I become the author of the book that states all those?

Can you show me where God states the 10 commandments exactly as you stated them?

Since you imply the other one is Catholic version while the one you stated is God's version.

adsonstone: That's totally absurd.....infact, in your mind, replace all your photographs/all drawings/artwork you've ever seen with graven images.....thats how absurd it is.

By the way, Syncan typed a reply which is on page 13 (infact, the last comment on that page) which I wanna believe thats your position too and you totally agree with that. (I would have copied it in a quote here but for phone ish)


now, back to topic.
To understand what God meant in that passage (if that is too ambigous) we'll consider other passage that speaks of such and see what God is against.

Leviticus 26:1 which I stated earlier

Deuteronomy 4:16-18

'16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and you make you a graven image of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17. The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18. The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:

It is evident from those passages that God is against making all forms of Graven Images in the likeness of anything at all.

When dealing with the first part of Ex 20:4, you disregarded all the passages that shows that what God is against is not "making of images" but "worshipping of images." You even disregarded v2, v3 and v5 which proves my point.

You just wanted to deal with that part in isolation.

Now that I apply that flawed approach to the second part of the verse, you suddenly remember other passages.

Which approach do you want us to use?

Should we deal with the verse in isolation or not?

@OP, what exactly do you want to know about Christianity?

And do you mind telling me your creed?

Thanks.

thorpido: Does a man have a religion with his father?When we say Christianity is not a religion,it is because we have a relationship and a fellowship with God-the Father.

For those criticising,can you tell me any religion that says God is their Father?

Christianity is a religion...except you dont know the meaning of "religion."

Joshthefirst: do other religions claim to be anything else? Do we not take the definition of christianity from the source of christianity? The bible? Stop being unreasonable.

Christianity started in 33AD. The Bible was compiled and canonized almost 400 years later.

^^^

No o.

Let Obadiah remain a mod forever o...so he can keep treating Catholics unfairly.

Isn't that his dream anymore?