₦airaland Forum

ijawkid: I think d answers to ya heretic questions would be by asking u questions.......


How was mary born

Was. She giving birth to through sex or was her life also transferref to her mothers womb

And then mayb an angel stroled by to tell mary's mum"" look u are going to give birth to a daughter and her name would be called Mary,daughter of God and also mother of God"""


What is immaculate about mary's conception?


I dnt even know why I'm tryin to discuss this issue......

Its so crazy,..................

I'm not trying to convince you to believe in The Immaculate Conception. Its you who made an allegation that it's a heresy and I only asked you to substantiate your claims. If not for me, at least for the neutral people who might be viewing this thread.

How is The Immaculate Conception a heresy? Who declared it so and by what authority?

buzugee: its all alot of assumptions and innuendos and conjectures and hypothesis and opinions in your post. where did you get that Jesus is the new Adam and Mary is the new Eve ? Notwithstanding i still think all these are vain opinions. i have never seen anywhere in the bible where it says that Mary is holy.

This is a roman-catholic church concept. Nothing to do with reality. its make-belief. you do know that subscribing to greco-roman religious doctrine is one of the facets of the mark of the beast right ? you do know this is bordering on idolatry right ? placing Mary on a pedestal created by men with seducing spirits is not the way you want to go brah.

Anti-Catholics! You always like to change topics when you are being proved wrong.

Firstly, do you agree that when Paul said "all have sinned", he didn't mean absolutely everyone?

After that, we can handle your other allegations one after the other.

ijawkid: Soon we might even be told by italo that mary is sitting @ Yahwehs left hand in d heavens...............

Since you can't keep shut, answer the question I asked you:

How is the Immaculate Conception a heresy, who declared it so and by what authority?

I thought you said you'll wait for others. Okay, since you can't keep shut, answer the question I asked you:

How is the Immaculate Conception a heresy, who declared it so and by what authority?

buzugee: I think this is what you need here
romans 3 vs 23[b] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God[/b] i think that pretty much ties in mary. so she is a sinner too. and as such 'perfect mary doctrine ' is a heresy, its preposterous, its a doctrine of seducing spirits, its greco-roman mythology and its ludicrous. all the great men of God struggled with sin. king david, solomon, paul, even Jesus struggled with sin when he was tempted but he alone defeated sin. The point here is mary was as much a sinner as the next man

Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11). 

We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made. 

Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.

OLAADEGBU: Whatever dogma revealed to your church should not contradict the inspired Word of God. Have you forgotten the lot of those who either add or subtract to the word of God? Historical records can be read but this does not mean that they should be included to the inspired Words of God.

Is the word of God only found in scripture or is it also passed on by oral tradition? E.g: did St. Paul write all his teachings in his epistles or did he pass on some or even most of his teachings orally?

If the word of God was passed on by oral tradition, do you know what was passed on?
If St. Paul did teach orally, do you know the things that he taught orally?

If you don't know all the things that were taught orally, how do you then know if the Immaculate Conception was not taught orally?
Even if we exclude the oral word of God, tell me how the Immaculate Conception contradicts the scriptures.

What verse of the Bible says that all apostles except John were martyred?

You didn't get a response because you didn't try that for 22yrs. Its a lie.

I think say your mouth dey sharp before. Now you dey wait for others to come help you. Well its good sha as you've decided to shut your mouth and watch instead of saying what you don't know.

ijawkid: So italo u mean u'll be asking me such question in this modern age when we all have our bibles handy??


So ur asking frosbel to show u which sin mary commited ba??


I don tire for catholics finally!!!!!

HERESY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

U guys just do what u like.....

All so that mary can be fully worshipped................

And as we can see u guys are worshipping her...............

Keep waiting to find out d sin mary commited,until Gods kingdom comes asking u d same question......

Jesus himself will ask u wether mary was immaculately concieved,then I'll know d kinda answer u'll render........

If mary was immaculately concieved then we are all immaculately concieved.......

Hope that is clear?

You still didn't answer my question:

How is it a heresy? Who declared it so, and by what authority?

[quote author=i.chuka]You are still not getting it.
Since he wanted something to DO,Christ told him what he must DO,to follow Him.which is impossible for any man to DO,to inherit Enternal life.but very possible through God.[/quote]I no argue again. No be you talk say Jesus no get mama that time...

logicboy: You have heard god's voice? Does god sound like a woman or man? Does he have yoruba accent?

Or does god use sign language?

Can you explain this godly communication for me?

Why should I tell you all these when you have the means to experience it for yourself.

Humble yourself before God with purity of heart and intention. Then communicate with him and he will respond. It may not be audible...or immediate. But he will respond because he loves you as much as he loves me.

A dogma is a truth revealed to the Church by God. It doesn't have to be written in the Bible. Even John wrote that not everything that happened could be written in a book. Are you saying that God cannot reveal something which wasn't written in the Bible to the Church, even today?

If you insist, then can you tell me where you read in the Bible that all the apostles were martyred, except John? What book, chapter, what verse?

frosbel: There is no such thing as Immaculate conception in the bible, Mary was a sinner like you and me.

So anything that is not in the Bible is a lie? And is it in the Bible that Mary was a sinner? What sin did she commit? What book, chapter, what verse?

frosbel: Only Christ Jesus was born immaculate.

Show me where the Bible said that...or is this your own doctrine?

frosbel: When will you stop elevating Mary to divine status

You don't tell me what I'm doing with Mary. I tell you what I'm doing. Can you see my heart?

thehomer: No she should still be skeptical because people don't give birth to eggs that others will see coming out of her private part. Such a finding would be worthy of proper scientific study. Also, what sort of supernatural forces do you have in mind? Egg laying demons inhabiting humans?

What kind of supernatural forces did you have in mind before you answered "no"?

Did you really consider my question as I did yours, or did you just have "no" as your default answer?

I have. Besides, an intelligent person would know that one doesn't necessarily have to talk verbally to communicate. Only a dumbass...sorry...no insults!

There's no need of the usual rigmarolling.

Jesus said "...then come and follow me."

That is to "do" something. Not to do nothing.

Even if the dogma is truth...

Not exactly.

The rich man calls Jesus "good teacher", but Jesus is not merely a good teacher, he is God. That's why Jesus says "why do you call me good?" 'Only one is good.'

Its more like saying "are you accepting me as God or not." "If I am 'good', then I'm God but if I'm not God, don't call me good"

That why Jesus mentions only commandments not directly related to God. He leaves out the ones directly referring to God. He is to capture them all later by saying "then come and follow me", because he is God.

The rich man did not follow him only because he didn't want to do away with his possesions and he did not realize from the discourse that Jesus was God.

Later, Jesus says its difficult for a rich man to enter heaven but "with God its possible"

How does a rich man get with God? By following Jesus.

But, even to follow him...is to DO something.

Not exactly.

The rich man calls Jesus "good teacher", but Jesus is not merely a good teacher, he is God. That's why Jesus says "why do you call me good?" 'Only one is good.'

Its more like saying "are you accepting me as God or not." "If I am 'good', then I'm God but if I'm not God, don't call me good"

That why Jesus mentions only commandments not directly related to God. He leaves out the ones directly referring to God. He is to capture them all later by saying "then come and follow me", because he is God.

But even, to follow him...is to DO something.

ijawkid: Now I really have a big problem with d immaculate conception of mary.......

That is some big ""HERESY""

ijawkid: Now I really have a big problem with d immaculate conception of mary.......

That is some big ""HERESY""

Tell us how it is a heresy, who declared it so and by what authority.

ijawkid: Now I really have a big problem with d immaculate conception of mary.......

That is some big ""HERESY""

ijawkid: Now I really have a big problem with d immaculate conception of mary.......

That is some big ""HERESY""

Tell us how it is a heresy.

Do not be deceived by those who have twisted Christianity for their own pride and selfishness. Prayer is not just about asking. It is communication with God. It could be vocal, contemplative or even meditative. You could be requesting for something good (in human eyes), or even accepting something bad (in human eyes) in good faith. Prayer is not as limited as you think it is.

[quote author=i.chuka]The Rich man was wrong in his acsertation.we dont "do" to attain enternal life.
Our Lord Jesus Christ explained to him that it is impossible for him to "do" to attain Enternal life,since he have been "doing" all his life,there's nothing he can still "do" to attain it.
Though its impossible with man,it is very possible with God.[/quote][quote author=i.chuka]Still Jesus told him to "do!" - "go sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, ...and then come and follow me"

"dooooooo!"

logicboy: 1) The catholic church supported slavery. Have you forgotten that? They changed that doctrine. Read about Pope Gregory IX sanctioning slavery

Whether the Church supported slavery or not, that is yet to be proved by you (you might want to provide evidence of that). But even if they did, it doesn't mean that it is a doctrine of the Catholic Church. The entirety of Catholic doctrine is not something secret as it's contained in The Catechism of the Catholic Church. You, a so-called "Catholic for 22yrs" should know this. If you insist, show me an official statement that shows that its a doctrine of the Church to support or engage in slavery; and show me when and/or where it was changed to say "do not support or engage in slavery. Let no one get me wrong, I'm not saying the Church never does wrong, I'm saying, even when we do, we're going against our own doctrine.

logicboy: 2) What about sanctioned holy wars and inquisitions?

What is wrong with sanctioning a war? There are situations where war is just, in Catholic doctrine. On the inquisitions, you will, again have to provide evidence again of the Churches role in that, sorry.

logicboy: Nope! The catholic church was mistaken in making that statement.

What do you mean, "they were mistaken", are you saying "there is salvation outside the Church," Atheist? Lol. Anyway let me save you the trouble. It is still a teaching of the Church as it has always been, found in the Catechism, so it was never changed.

logicboy: It's exactly what the church teaches. Dead babies go to purgatory. Atheists/unbelievers who can claim that they have never heard of Jesus before will also go to purgatory then heaven

CCC 1030 "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607"

When we say "those who die in God's grace and frienship", we mean, in common Catholic usage, "those who die in a state of grace." And to be in a state of grace means to be free of mortal sin. You cannot be in mortal sin and be in God's grace and friendship because, mortal sin leads to "death and separation" from God.

logicboy: The priest did not err, what he said was in line with the church's teaching.

I didn't say that Priest erred. I'm saying, the priest can err and not be excommunicated. Read and understand.

logicboy: Was slavery a discipline? What about catholic sanctioned torture of heretics?

Neither was a doctrine or discipline. Neither have you provided evidence of.

logicboy: The catholic church changed on

-slavery
-sanctioning holy wars
-torture of heretics

My point is, they never changed a DOCTRINE!

@ OP,

Thank you.

Yes it is possible for those who through not fault of their own do not know Jesus or his Church...but who still seek God...and seek to live according to his will as they see in their conscience ...

It will of course still be Jesus who saves them...(and Christians are to proclaim Christ..the Gospel to them)

Or even atheists...

as the Church noted at the Second Vatican Council:

"Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life (LG 16)

Whoever is saved in the end...will be saved by Jesus Christ...even if he has never heard of him or the Church ....and in relation to the Church.

But yes if a person has heard the Gospel...and rejected Christ..this is not a positive sign...

(or if I did so..I would be in grave trouble! ...I too can end up choosing hell).

Having said that..

Now there can be "more to the story" they may have not heard it properly ...not really ...or were maltreated by someone claiming to be doing so as a Christian or something...

Or...you may not have the right introduction here..to the actual Jesus.

God can give graces...we have no knowledge of...

And as the Second Vatican Council notes:

Since Christ died for all men, and since the ultimate vocation of man is in fact one, and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery [Gaudium et Spes 22].

and God does will our salvation...and knows what the person may have rejected (a fake portrait of Jesus) etc..

Hope that helps

@ ijawkid,

What is "gehenna?"

logicboy: The catholic church's teaching changes (that's why I am not a catholic anymore)but it remains uniform.

We must be careful when we say that Catholic teaching "changes." It doesn't, in the sense that it can make a 'u-turn' on what it said before. It can only get better defined as the Church is being better enlightened by the Holy Spirit... For example, the Church can never teach that purgatory does not exist because it has been revealed to us as truth, but it can understand more and more about purgatory.

logicboy: 3) The website shows that the catholic church has moved to the teaching that non-catholics or non believers can go to heaven

. "The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church." 6"

Nope! It was always the teaching of the Church, it just was poorly understood when The Church said "No Salvation Outside The Catholic Church".

logicboy: 4) The teaching on purgatory is for people who are not totally pure who have to be cleansed or do pennance before going to heaven unbelievers, babies etc go there before heaven.

That's not exactly what the Church teaches. Its for people who are in a state of grace when they die (free of unconfessed mortal sins) but have either committed venial sins or have not adequately served the temporal punishment for forgiven mortal sins (as the Catholic Church believes that we pay for every sin - whether forgiven or not - in this life or in the next.

logicboy: The priest can not go outside the doctrine without excommunication. Furthermore, yes, the church changes its position but the changes are uniform accross the whle catholic church.

The priest, like anyone else can err, but it doesn't necessarily lead to excommunication if its an honest mistake. It does if he's doing it deliberately.

The Church never changes a doctrine, what might change is a "discipline." An example of a discipline that can change is priestly celibacy. It is a discipline to encourage total devotion to God, not a doctrine.

To reiterate: The Catholic Church has never changed a single doctrine in all its 2000year history.

cyrexx: so what if a muslim imam perform this "miracle". will you believe his claims, which includes God have no son. do you owe it to yourself to be optimistic about this miracle

dont misunderstand me...

i didnt imply that i believed the so-called miracle of the pastor or whatever he calls himself, neither did i refute it. i dont know if its real or not and it doesnt matter to me... because i already know that miracles happen, though a lot of these con-artists that call themselves pastors either stage-manage "miracles" or perform them with evil powers. performing a miracle, which could loosely mean performing a supernatural task(whether through the power of God or the devil), does not make one's teaching right. Babalawos perform miracles too. So there's no need of being optimistic or pessimistic about the existence of miracles but i can be optimistic or pessimistic about the authenticity (whether its true or false) of the imam's miracle or the source of the power for the miracle. God...or the devil

I hope you understand me.

By the way, I'd love to see you answer if you think you owe yourself to be optimistic incase its real and from God...

We should look to the one true Church which is the "pillar and foundation of truth" for interpretation of Christ's teaching. That is what the early Christians did, even when there was no Bible. Even the books of the new testament were written by the leaders of the Church to the faithful in order to teach them. Yes, we need the Holy Spirit individually, but the Holy Spirit has been given to the Church to teach it all things for our sake.

It is because every man feels he can interprete scripture on his own with the "help of the Holy Spirit" that we now have 35000 denominations all over the world teaching 35000 different doctrines allegedly revealed by ONE Holy Spirit.

Seek the Church Christ built...and you will have all the interpretation you need

So you want him to describe hell in detail before you know there is hell?

Like the Atheists want us to describe God in detail before they believe there is God...

thehomer: If she is collaborating with the pastor or prophet or whatever the guy calls himself, don't you owe it to yourself to be skeptical about this so-called miracle?

Sure!

BUT if she is NOT collaborating with the pastor or prophet or whatever the guy calls himself, and this happened as a result of supernatural forces, don't you owe it to yourself to be optimistic about this so-called miracle?