₦airaland Forum

ijawkid: Oboy hasn't ola quoted all the scriptures as regards Jesus half brothers

What more do u want??

And I have debunked all of it.

ijawkid: I will always remind u of this fact::::::

The reason why mary has become so important to u guys is because ya popes wanted to worship an image,a goddess....

And mary has now fit into that sh**t.....

Keep bowing down to her image...

A day is coming when spiritual koboko will flog ya ass**s when u bow down to her image and say d hail mary's.....

Idol goddess worshippers

Scatter-brained rant! No thinking!

@ Logicboy,

If I get you right, you worshipped the statues of Mary and probably of other saints but you didn't worship Mary herself or any saint.

Catholics in the UK are not idol worshippers but the ones in Nigeria are?

So what did you say to the statue/statues in prayer/worship?

How many Gods did you then have when you were in the Catholic Church?

@ jmoore,

Save your reasoning for reasonable people.

ijawkid: ITALO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


So d bible is d semi-final authority abi

I have given you proof and reason that the Bible is not the final authority; if you have proof that the Bible is the final authority, let us see it.

ijawkid: All these just to support that mary never gave birth to any other kids even when d bible says she did......

We were not even talking about whether Mary had other kids or not. We were talking about The Immaculate Conception, but your hatred for Catholicism has made you scatter-brained.

ijawkid: I knw d catholics helped preserve d scriptures but they didn't write it.........

The New Testament was written by Catholics, for Catholics.

ijawkid: Stick to bible verses and leave d popes presumpteous doctrines.......

But it was a Pope that canonized the Bible. Maybe the Bible, then, is one of the Pope's "presumptuous doctrines."

ijawkid: Sooner or later u might say Jesus isn't d final authority for d church,.......................

It is you who has said so.

ijawkid: Even Jesus knew he had half brothers but d catholic church says Jesus didn't.....

Then he handed over their mother to John, for him to take her into his home. Jesus knew he had "half brothers?" The ones he sent Mary Magdalene to, then she went to meet his disciples.(John 20:17-18)

ijawkid: I tire for ona oooo...

What will it take to concede to d scriptures that mary had other kids and dat she wasn't a virgin forever......?

For christ sake mary got married.....

She didn't commit fornication nor adultery but slept with her husband which is good in the eyes of God.......

Which kin wahala be this....

The only thing you can prove there from the scriptures is that she got married. The others, you can't prove, so why do you say we don't concede to scripture?

Now concoct another retarded post as you always do.

@ Ijawkid,

Why don't you open another thread to discuss the Trinity?

It seems to me that you just want something negative to say about Catholics, so now that you have seen that men can forgive sins, your jumping to "Trinity"

OLAADEGBU: The Oracles of God determine what is or not the inspired Word of God and it needs no interpretation because it did not come from any private interpretation.

You are in contradiction with Heb. 5:12: "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need SOMEONE to TEACH you again the basic elements of the oracles of God."

The oracles of God do need interpretation afterall... So says the Holy Spirit!

OLAADEGBU: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished to all good works" (2 Timothy 3:16).

But nothing in Scripture tells us what Scriptures are inspired, what books belong in the Bible, or that Scripture is the final authority on questions concerning the Christian faith. Instead, the Bible says that the Church, not the Scriptures, is the pinnacle and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the final arbiter on questions of the Christian faith (Matt. 18:17).

You use 2 Tim. 3:16-17 to prove that the Bible is the sole authority of God's word. But examining these texts disproves your claim. Here, Paul appeals to apostolic tradition right before verse 2 Tim. 3:16-17. Thus, there is an appeal to tradition before there is an appeal to the Scriptures, and you generally ignore this fact.

2 Tim. 3:15 - Paul then appeals to the sacred writings of Scripture referring to the Old Testament Scriptures with which Timothy was raised (not the New Testament which was not even compiled at the time of Paul's teaching). This verse also proves that one can come to faith in Jesus Christ without the New Testament.

2 Tim. 3:16 - this verse says that Scripture is "profitable" for every good work, but not exclusive. The word "profitable" is "ophelimos" in Greek. "Ophelimos" only means useful, which underscores that Scripture is not mandatory or exclusive. You unbiblically argue that profitable means exclusive.

OLAADEGBU: Even the accurate history books cannot compare to these books of supernatural origin, and certainly can't be compared by mythical books of pagans. If your book goes contrary to what is written in the 66 books of the Bible then you are on your own.

The Bible contains 73 books! But let us leave that matter for now because I can see that you are desperately trying to deviate from the topic of discussion. Let us handle them, one after the other.

OLAADEGBU: You can read it in Fox's book of Martyrs, there you will find out the fate of the apostles and many others.

Philip was stoned to death in Phrygia, A.D. 54;

Peter was crucified in Rome, A.D. 69;

Paul was beheaded in Rome in A.D. 69;

Andrew was crucified in Achaia, A.D. 70;

Matthew was beheaded in Ethiopia, A.D. 70;

Thomas was speared to death at Calamino, A.D. 70;

James (The Less) was clubbed to death in Jerusalem, A.D. 63;

John was abandoned on the Isle of Patmos, A.D. 63.

A Church father named Justin Martyr said:

"You can kill us, but you cannot do us any real harm"

He was martyred in A.D. 165.

You can go ahead and show us your historical books but note that spurious claims does not qualify as historical books, it must be corroborated by two or more witnesses. I have already told you how the dogma of the Immaculate conception came about in 1854 in the article I posted above, if you have anything other than that please post it.

*Smiles* I have not even started posting and you are already terrified. Anyway, it is good to see that you accept things that are not found in the Bible as "truth." Since you quoted John Foxe and St. Justin Martyr, let me quote some other early Church fathers.

Origen calls her (Mary) "worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, most complete sanctity, perfect justice, neither deceived by the persuasion of the serpent, nor infected with his poisonous breathings" ("Hom. i in diversa"

Ambrose says "she (Mary) is incorrupt, a virgin immune through grace from every stain of sin."

Do you believe them, or do you just pick and choose quotes from Church fathers that suit you?

OLAADEGBU: Will you accept the Biblical references that I will quote as your final authority in all matters of doctrine or is it your church that takes priority?

I will accept anything in the Bible, but not as the final authority in all matters of doctrine. Unless you can show me where the Bible says we must accept it as the final authority in all matters of doctrine. Last time I checked the Bible said "the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth" but you seem hell-bent on re-writing the Bible. It was not the Bible that created and canonized the Church, it was the other way round, so how can the Bible have authority over the Church?

logicboy: It's a lie. [size=18pt]The fact remains that pope Gregory IX put slavery into canon law.[/size] There is no evidence against it. It was canon law. to deny it shows that you're a liar. The truth is there and no one is denying it.

My friend, you can't rant all you want. Hit me when you find evidence.

logicboy: Babies still have original sin if they are not babptized, dont they? What happens to innocent but unclean people? They go to purgatory for cleansing before heaven. End of story.

Purgatory is not for people with original sins. Its for people who have venial sins and unpaid temporal punishment. The Church has no definite teaching on where unbaptized babies go. If you say they do, EVIDENCE! And you haven't told me the Bishop that supervised that teaching that babies go to purgatory o.

logicboy: You are just desperate

You're clueless.

jiemoour: D catholics just wanna make mary perfect so that they can worship her.[img]http://www.keyforex.info/hardware.gif[/img]

Are you saying she's our Lord, and not Jesus?

ijawkid: Ask him well again if he didn't bow down to mary's image......

Ask him again.......

Bowing down to a moulded figure .....

That's 1 reason why logic boy ran!!!!!!!.....lol

Why don't you ask your friend? Or are you scared of him?

Your worthless opinion.

ijawkid: Just keep worshipping her....

You are free to......

She is perfect and flawless....

A virgin forever....

Keep worshipping her...........

Bow down to her image and say the hail mary's until ur mouth bleeds.........

Idolatry shit!!!!!!!!!!!

@ Ijawkid, listen to your friend, logicboy, who claims he was a "hardcore Catholic for 22yrs" but who is now vehemently opposed to The Catholic Church.

logicboy: I did not worship mary. Kiss my azz

One would think that he would claim he worshipped Mary, even if, only to discredit the Church.

I am not denying your past. I am affirming it, which is, that you were never a serious Catholic. Your tactic of beating around the bush won't work here.

Logic Mind: Ask your god. he is all knowing and answers when you call upon him.

I thought you said Christians were "running away"...

Look who's running now!

Logic Mind: This is the epitome of hypocrisy of religious people.
Did you see an atheist section on nl?
You religious people have to come here on nl and create your section and preach your gospel to us. When we respond, you turn around and accuse us of bothering you.
If you don't want to be bothered on nl, take your religion out of nl and leave us alone.
[size=18pt]HYPOCRITES![/size]

To think that I thought you were a reasonable person. The religion section is actually for people to share their belief in God and other higher powers. That's what it says, isn't it. So it is structured in such a way that if you are not interested in discussion about faith, you can easily avoid by NOT clicking in. But no! Everytime you log onto nairaland, you dash straight for the religion section, then you're the first to say Christians are bothering you. I'm not complaining of being bothered, it was you who 1st complained. I only detest the anarchy...though it serves a purpose of exposing the lunacy that comes with Atheism. Imagine visiting the "Romance section" everyday just because I don't believe in love or romance. Why don't I just be civil, respect those who believe it and stay away?

You claim not to believe there's God, yet you spend your whole life talking and thinking about him.

And you open your mouth and utter the word HYPOCRITE!

We both know!

OLAADEGBU: Whatever our Lord Jesus Christ or His apostles said orally that was not written down in Scriptures cannot contradict what has been written, they can only corroborate it. So whatever oral tradition that you've been indoctrinated with that has no basis or backing from the inspired Word of God should not be taken as the Word of God.

We have words of God, words of men and words of devils. Whatever contradicts or opposes the written Word of God should be disposed of.

Who determines what contradicts the word and what corroborates it, and by what authority? - since we all have varying interpretations of various topics. Is it you?

OLAADEGBU: As for the the apostles that were or were not martyred you can consult historical books written. We only have the first martyr written the Acts of the Apostles shortly before Peter was arrested.

Firstly, in what historical book did YOU, OLAADEGBU read it? Then, can I also consult historical books and writings on The Immaculate conception and other topics? Or are historical books only valid when discussing the martyrdom of the apostles, then when it comes to other topics, we should only stick to scripture?

OLAADEGBU: And if you are challenging me to give you Scriptures that contradict your so called Immaculate Conception I would gladly oblige your indulgence.

Oh please! I'm eager. What are you waiting for?

logicboy: You want me to find a document showing the support of slavery from the 13th century? Would the catholic church post it online? Ode.

There is argument against what pope Gregory IX did. You are grasping at straws. Historians have said that it was put into canon law. If it was a lie, people would have been sued and an injuction imposed.

Historians have also said something different from what you are saying. Catholic doctrine is not something that is kept in secret. If it was taught by the Catholic Church, there would be at least one official Church document like the one you quoted below that would reflect it...and you can find many of these documents online. Even today, people continue to lay false accusations against the Church, how many have been sued? Which historian said it, by the way?

logicboy: As for babies going to heaven;

In the Gospel of Life (Evangelium Vitae) Pope John Paul II says the following:

I would now like to say a special word to women who have had an abortion . The Church is aware of the many factors which may have influenced your decision, and she does not doubt that in many cases it was a painful and even shattering decision. The wound in your heart may not yet have healed. Certainly what happened was and remains terribly wrong. But do not give in to discouragement and do not lose hope. Try rather to understand what happened and face it honestly. If you have not already done so, give yourselves over with humility and trust to repentance. The Father of mercies is ready to give you his forgiveness and his peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. You will come to understand that nothing is definitively lost and you will also be able to ask forgiveness from your child, who is now living in the Lord. With the friendly and expert help and advice of other people, and as a result of your own painful experience, you can be among the most eloquent defenders of everyone's right to life. Through your commitment to life, whether by accepting the birth of other children or by welcoming and caring for those most in need of someone to be close to them, you will become promoters of a new way of looking at human life.

We are not arguing about babies going to "heaven". You said "babies go to purgatory!" So there is no use quoting this document. Bring me the one that says "babies go to purgatory". Thank God you know how to find these documents. You have no excuse anymore.

Also, you haven't told me what bishop supervised this teaching that babies go to purgatory, and the nature of the supervision. Mr "hardcore Catholic for 22yrs"

logicboy: Even if went to church only twice in my life, I would know both the parish priest and the church's organisations. Just read the mass bulletin

That's the point. A serious Catholic would. Not you, or any of your kind.

Logic Mind: Because your people bother me everyday with your holy book. so i decided to read it. now i just need clarification on a few things and they are running away scared.

From all I can see, you're the one "bothering" them. This is the "Religion Section" and you're obsessed with it, even though you claim not to be religious.

They are not running away, this is the 22nd post and you say they are running away. You don't want clarification on anything. You just feel like acting funny by asking irrelevant questions. Questions like:

What was the temperature in your last dream?

Answer!

God wants us to come to him through his Son, Jesus who is also God. Together with the Holy Spirit, they make up the Holy Trinity - Three persons in one God.

You are not to dictate how you want to worship God. God is to dictate how you should.

@ Logic mind,

Did Mary give birth to Jesus?

If not, why are worried if she remained a virgin afterwards or not?

@ ijawkid, maybe we should ask your friend, logicboy, to tell us how he worshipped Mary for 22yrs, if he did...

@ logicboy, did you worship Mary for 22years, and how did you do it?

@ Amor4ce wants to prevail against something that "the gates of hades shall not prevail against"... We are waiting to see who will win.

Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins

John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, "as the Father sent me, so I send you." As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors to forgive sins.

John 20:22 - the Lord "breathes" on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord "breathes" divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.

John 20:23 - Jesus says, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

Matt. 9:8 - this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to "men." Hence, whoever acknowledges that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles' successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors?

Matt. 9:6; Mark 2:10 - Christ forgave sins as a man (not God) to convince us that the "Son of man" has authority to forgive sins on earth.

Luke 5:24 - Luke also points out that Jesus' authority to forgive sins is as a man, not God. The Gospel writers record this to convince us that God has given this authority to men. This authority has been transferred from Christ to the apostles and their successors.

2 Cor. 5:18 - the ministry of reconciliation was given to the ambassadors of the Church. This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance.

James 5:15-16 - in verse 15 we see that sins are forgiven by the priests in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man's authority to forgive sins on earth. Then in verse 16, James says “Therefore, confess your sins to one another,” in reference to the men referred to in verse 15, the priests of the Church.

Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 - even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.

SIRACH, JOHN, ROMANS.

Men and women have their roles in God's plan. There's no need to fight.

logicboy: You are just desperate now. Slavery was clearly supported by canon law in he catholic church. It got changed. For you to deny this, shows the liar you are.

I said show me an official Church document that shows that Catholic doctrine supports slavery and one that highlight a change in this doctrine. Is that too much to ask? Are you afraid that what you posted might be different from what is obtainable in official Church documents?

logicboy: There is no more reason for me to debate with you when you discard facts.

You cannot just pick up something, anywhere on the internet and expect me to accept them as facts. And of course there are contrary views to what you posted on the internet too.

logicboy: As for the catholic teaching on puragtory, can you tell me where dead babies go? I am telling you what I was taught in cathechism under supervision of a bishop.

The Church has no definite teaching on where unbaptized babies go.

What bishop supervised that teaching? What was the nature of the supervision.

Logic Mind: Do you actually bother yourself over anything written in your holy book? Fo you pick and choose conveniently?

WHY do you actually bother yourself over anything written in OUR holy book? For you pick and choose conveniently?

Oh please! Tell that to the marines!

I told you before, you can deceive other people on that issue, not me.

logicboy: You are foolish. After editing my comments foolishly, how do you expect them to no be haphazard. However, even with your remix, the haphazardness still shows that you know nothing about my christina life and you are foolish to judge it both from a biblical sense and common sense

Sorry, but its nearly impossibly to edit foolish comments 'wisely.' I might know little about your past so-called Christain life, but that "little" is very important. At least I know you lie about it and use it to deceive unsuspecting people. You once called yourself "a hardcore Catholic for 22yrs". What "hardcore Catholic", if there's anything like that, wouldn't know:

1. His Parish Priest.

2. The Religious Order that runs his parish.

3. The mass (time) he attended every Sunday (52 weeks in a year X 22 years = More than 1000 times)

Etc...

Then you talk about Judging. What do you know about the Bible telling us not to judge? The Bible is our Father's words to we his children. So you don't interprete for me. I know what my Father wants.

@ logicboy,

I am yet to see an official Catholic Church document from you to show that Catholic doctrine supported participation in slavery. Perhaps you can give me a snapshot of the text (online or offline) with the link when you find one, let's compare and contrast with what you have typed here. Also kindly provide texts from two official documents to show that they contradict eachother in terms of doctrine.

I cannot accept what non-Catholics and anti-Catholics say about the Church doctrine; what do they know - with their usual biased minds.

logicboy: Slavery incorporated into Canon Law
In the early thirteenth century, official support for slavery and the slave trade was incorporated into Canon Law (Corpus Iuris Canonici), by Pope Gregory IX,.[61][62] Canon law provided for four just titles for holding slaves: slaves captured in war, persons condemned to slavery for a crime; persons selling themselves into slavery, including a father selling his child; children of a mother who is a slave.
Slavery was imposed as an ecclesiastical penalty by General Councils and local Church councils and Popes, 1179-1535...
(a) The crime of assisting the Saracens 1179-1450.....
(b) The crime of selling Christian slaves to the Saracens 1425. Pope Martin V issued two constitutions. Traffic in Christian slaves was not forbidden, but only their sale to non Christian masters.
(c) The crime of brigandage in the Pyrenees mountainous districts, 1179.
(d)Unjust aggression or other crimes, 1309-1535. The penalty of capture and enslavement for Christian families or cities or states was enacted several times by Popes. Those sentenced included Venetians in 1309.[63]
Pope Gregory XI, excommunicated the Florentines and ordered them to be enslaved if captured[64] Little seems to have happened before the order was removed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_slavery


1) You must be willfully ignorant if you are in denial of catholic support of the inquisitions and crusades. owever, if there is a just reason for war then one should defend himself.

What I want everyone to know is the nature and level of involvement we had and if its as bad as you make it seem. That's why I want to see some evidence, not just loose allegations.

logicboy: 2) I will not put up proof so that I can see the kind of person you are whether you will look up the truth on whether the catholic church supported the those wars.

Since we both agree that there is something like a just war, then there is no need to dwell on this, is there?

logicboy: 3) Torture of heretics; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition#Tribunals_and_institutions

Again, wikipedia. What we need to see is where Catholic doctrine supported "torture of heretics" and where they stopped supporting it. We can find that from an official Church document, not wiki.

logicboy: No, such teaching has been removed. There is salvation outside the catholic church and that is an admission grudgingly made by the catholic church.

Read CCC 846: "outside the Church there is no salvation"

logicboy: Long story short- babies go to purgatory. Babies are atheists. Babies later go to heaven.

Atheists go to heaven

That is your doctrine, not Catholic doctrine. If you insist, evidence!

logicboy: 1) Slavery was in canon law.

2) The Inquisition, Inquisitio Haereticae Pravitatis (inquiry on heretical perversity), was the "fight against heretics" by several institutions within the justice system of the Roman Catholic Church. It started in the 12th century, with the introduction of torture in the persecution of heresy.[1] Inquisition practices were used also on offences against canon law other than heresy.

Look, I'm not talking about civil or legal matters, ok. Give me evidence from Catholic doctrine, please.

logicboy: they did. look up slavery and the catholic church

I have looked it up and found many contrasting testimonies, depending on whose account you believe.

logicboy: God never replies, yuhave never heard his voice.

logicboy: lol...you now know my personal life?...(you know nothing about my life when I was a christian)?

God doesnt exist

See how incoherent and scatter-brained you are?

Seriously, do you see it?