₦airaland Forum

OLAADEGBU: The Virgin Conception is the doctrine of the Bible while the Immaculate Conception is a dogma in the RCC which has no basis in the Bible.

The Bible as a whole is a product of Catholic doctrine and tradition. Afterall, it didn't exist before the fourth century, when we gave it to the world. So do you reject it too?

Are you implying that everything not expressly written in the Bible is a lie?

Why then, did you tell me in the other thread that "all the apostles, except John, were martyred?" When it has no "basis in the Bible"?

OLAADEGBU: The Immaculate Conception is the indoctrination that Mary was born without sin. I'm open to correction on this.

Indoctrination is not a bad thing as long as it is true. The trinity is also a Catholic indoctrination, then. The Bible is, too. Do you reject these?

Let me make a prediction: you will dodge my questions or give ambiguous or evasive responses as usual.

Who gave King James the authority to translate?

Did his authority come from being the King of England or did it come from God?

If it came from God, how?

And if it came from his throne, why should I adhere to it?

The Immaculate Conception is quite different from The Virgin Conception!

@ hisblud, thanks.

Its even more confusing, what logicboy wants from this video...

The answer is in my post. That's why I asked if its your sight that's bad or your understanding of the language.

What do you need?

A pair of glasses, or an English teacher?

logicboy: Italo,

Here is what your bishop says about atheists;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24UOgClzvqk

I don't exactly know what you are trying to point out...

"Atheists can go to heaven"

What about that?

callydon: I believe no church is PERFECT n ur church won't take u to heaven,its only a means of attaining heaven.

Matt 16: 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

It does seem like The Church can take you (of course, with your 'co-operation') to heaven...and also shut you out of heaven (if you don't co-operate), according to Jesus' words.

"THE CHURCH" he built on Peter the rock.

callydon: I believe no church is PERFECT n ur church won't take u to heaven,its only a means of attaining heaven.

Matt 16: 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

It does seem like The Church can take you (of course, with your 'co-operation') to heaven...and also shut you out of heaven (if you don't co-operate), according to Jesus' words.

THE CHURCH he built on Peter the rock.

@ emofine2,

While I have little interest in this directionless (in my opinion) topic, I just want to correct something.

The Immaculate Conception has nothing little to do with Jesus' conception in Mary's womb. Its about Mary's conception in her mother's womb.

Some of you are so eager to get on nairaland and spew trash on when you should just listen and learn.

@ OP, so what's your own opinion?

@ logicboy, I can't watch videos on my phone. Perhaps you could just type out what he said that you want to bring to my attention.

[quote author=emöfine2]Why Do So Many Black People (including Nigerians) Believe In God?

Whilst I believe that everyone has a right to their belief and I respect that, there seems to be a taboo amongst the “black” community concerning unbelief/atheism from my observation.[/quote]I don't think its necessarily wrong to believe that Atheism is a taboo; even some Atheists, "whites" especially, treat religion as a taboo to. Moreover, you just said "everyone has a right to their belief." What I do not subscribe to, is treating people of other creeds badly. Jesus certainly didn't teach me that; indeed, the opposite was what he taught.

[quote author=emöfine2]Why Do So Many Black People (including Nigerians) Believe In God?

Whilst I believe that everyone has a right to their belief and I respect that, there seems to be a taboo amongst the “black” community concerning unbelief/atheism from my observation.[/quote]I don't think its necessarily wrong to believe that Atheism is a taboo; even some Atheists, "whites" especially, treat religion as a taboo to. Moreover, you just said "everyone has a right to their belief." What I do not subscribe to, is treating people of other creeds badly. Jesus certainly didn't teach me that; indeed, the opposite was what he taught.

Olaadegbu,

Good! I was expecting u to dodge my questions as usual. But, don't be scared, they're not too dfcult to answer...and they're very few too.

And y don't u tell me anytn I've ignored, if any?

OLAADEGBU: If you read and study the Bible you will know this.

Before the death of Jesus we read in John 7:5

"For neither did his brethren believe in him"

After His death and resurrection we read in Acts 1:13-14

"And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren."

Can you now see it clearly written in the Bible?

Can you see that James, the Lord's brother was not named as one of the disciples in the Acts 1:13 that I quoted above? except that he was one of the brothers of Jesus that was with Mary.

For your information. There were 3 men called James in the gospels.

James, "the Lord's brother", "the apostle" is James "the son of Alpheus" that was named among the "apostles".

Only two James' were mentioned.

Now I would like to re-ask you some questions which you tactfully dodged initially:

1. Who did Jesus refer to as "MY BROTHERS" in John 20: 17?

2. Why would Jesus hand over his mother to John (to take her into his home) if he had 6 or more siblings born by her?

3.

OLAADEGBU: That's why you have to read Bible and the history behind it instead of your church traditions which is contrary to the truth.

So from what history book or writing did you find that all the apostles, except John, were martyred?

Enigma: ^^^ To suport the above, here is one I made earlier

Very true

cyrexx: @ italo,
we are looking at the same situation from totally different standpoints. Yours subjective, mine objective. But sincerely, I wish God (if he truly exists) can talk to humans like you claimed. I want to believe you are being honest when you said God talks to you ( that you are not referring to some mental monologues and audio hallucinations that many people attribute to God).

It is already a subjective statement to say I'm looking at it subjectively. Its your own opinion and you have no evidence of that. God responds to people in different ways as I said earlier but it all depends on your relationship with him. Relationship with God is somewhat like relationship with man. Aren't there people you talk to and those you don't talk to? Sometimes its due to the way they talk or act with you. Let us imagine I told you there's a man that all powerful in Nigeria and can get you anything you want or take anything from you in Nigeria (though you are not sure of the existence of such a man). If I put you on the phone to someone, and I told you it was him, wouldn't you naturally be polite and humble before him? So it should be with someone who is genuinely seeking the truth about God. I say he created the world, almighty, he loves us and demands our worship. If you truly seek clarity on such a being, you must do so with utmost humility and open-mindedness. Trust me, I'm not a fanatic. Even I, who believe, used to wonder if those who said they heard a serene clear voice from nowhere speak to them, were just exaggerating. Until I heard it. Serene and clear like they always described.

cyrexx: why did he permit different religions on earth to confuse mankind about his identity..

why did he (according to the holy books) create a torture chamber to burn men forever without destroying them for not believing some things in the holy books that contradict themselves.(cos i dont want to believe He exists out of fear of hell, such a wicked god does not deserve any worship he gets).

why did He neglect when people genuinely pray for relief from suffering and there is no answer from Him (this is based on personal experience).

i hope one day he will talk to me personally (i.e. if he exists), answer my questions and dispel all my honest doubts about his existence.

Be humble and ask God to reveal himself to you. The answer might not be immediate or audible, but God will reveal himself to you because he loves you as much as he loves me.

cyrexx: @ italo,
we are looking at the same situation from totally different standpoints. Yours subjective, mine objective. But sincerely, I wish God (if he truly exists) can talk to humans like you claimed. I want to believe you are being honest when you said God talks to you ( that you are not referring to some mental monologues and audio hallucinations that many people attribute to God).

It is already a subjective statement to say I'm looking at it subjectively. Its your own opinion and you have no evidence of that. God responds to people in different ways as I said earlier but it all depends on your relationship with him. Relationship with God is somewhat like relationship with man. Aren't there people you talk to and those you don't talk to? Sometimes its due to the way they talk or act with you. Let us imagine I told you there's a man that all powerful in Nigeria and can get you anything you want or take anything from you in Nigeria (though you are not sure of the existence of such a man). If I put you on the phone to someone, and I told you it was him, wouldn't you naturally be polite and humble before him? So it should be with someone who is genuinely seeking the truth about God. I say he created the world, almighty, he loves us and demands our worship. If you truly seek clarity on such a being, you must do so with utmost humility and open-mindedness. Trust me, I'm not a fanatic. Even I, who believe, used to wonder if those who said they heard a serene clear voice from nowhere speak to them, were just exaggerating. Until I heard it. Serene and clear like they always described.

cyrexx: why did he permit different religions on earth to confuse mankind about his identity..

why did he (according to the holy books) create a torture chamber to burn men forever without destroying them for not believing some things in the holy books that contradict themselves.(cos i dont want to believe He exists out of fear of hell, such a wicked god does not deserve any worship he gets).

why did He neglect when people genuinely pray for relief from suffering and there is no answer from Him (this is based on personal experience).

i hope one day he will talk to me personally (i.e. if he exists), answer my questions and dispel all my honest doubts about his existence.

Be humble and ask God to reveal himself to you. The answer might not be immediate or audible, but God will reveal himself to you because he loves you as much as he loves me.

OLAADEGBU: I believe this is where your misconceptions originated from. You have to discover what the Bible means by The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. When you find out this truth then you will know who wrote all the books of the Bible and know that the Scriptures interpretes itself with no need from outside influences.

I already know the truth - which is - THE CHURCH, not the Bible, is THE PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF THE TRUTH (1Tim 3: 15).

But you, olaadegbu are an outside influence...

OLAADEGBU: James, the son of zebedee who was one of the 3 disciples of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This has to be a new one. 3 disciples? Please explain.

OLAADEGBU: Unfortunately for James, he became the first Martyr while John was the only disciple who never got martyred but wrote the last book of the NT while imprisoned on the Isle of Patmos.

How do you know all the apostles except John were matyrred? Is that written in the Bible?

OLAADEGBU: James, who was the half brother of Jesus Christ must not be confused with James the son of Zebedee. James with the other siblings of our Lord Jesus Christ only became a disciple after the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus.

How do you know that any so-called siblings of Jesus became disciples after Jesus' death? Is it written in the Bible?

OLAADEGBU: He was one of the presiding elders at Jerusalem and he wrote the epistle of James. His other sibling wrote the epistle of Jude, and their mother is different from the mother of James and John the sons of Zebedee and they were not relatives.

Gal 1: 19: but I did not see any other APOSTLE except James, the Lord's BROTHER.

The same James who is referred to as Jesus' brother, was one of the 12 apostles. A "new apostle" could not have just become one of the "presiding elders" of the Church.

And Salome is the Mother of the Apostle James, brother of John...

While Mary of Clopas is the mother of Apostle James, brother of Jude.

@ cyrexx, I hope you are truly "open-minded" as you said and you remain so.

I am not an expert in convincing Atheists on the existence of God... Because, I have never really cared what Atheists think. I usually just leave them to their faith because most of them, I feel, are not Atheists because they have not experienced God and the spiritual; they have, but still reject God out of pride.

But I can tell you why I know God exists:

I got to know God as early as I got to know myself... Because the most trusted people around me told me about him and took me to Church. From a tender age I believed in God, exactly as I was taught in Church. But, growing up, I went past the "believing" stage to the realization stage.

I started to experience God just as I had been taught. I talk to God, and he responds, in an audible voice from nowhere a few times, other times, with signs - as I had been taught. I have seen the effect of living a holy life and the effects of living in sin. I have seen how God fights my cause when I'm powerless and helpless. I have experienced God reveal future events to me in dreams. I have seen God (the author of nature) suspend the laws of nature. I have seen a documentary of incorruptible saints and how scientists tested to find the reason those bodies refused to decompose...to no avail... And many other miracles like that.

I have seen God, heard God, eaten God in the Blessed Sacrament.

...And I have seen the profound effect it has on my life.

@cyrexx,

Sorry just a little more time.

OLAADEGBU: We can see the different context where Jesus used the word brother/brethren. Moreover, this was an opportunity for Jesus to exalt His mother above the rest of humanity, even though Mary is blessed in bearing our Lord Jesus Christ but He gave her no more honour than any of the common people who heard the Word of God and obeyed it, which his siblings obviously were not.

Bordering on another topic entirely.

OLAADEGBU: It will better if you reference where you are getting this information from. Is it from the Bible or from your church dogma?

Both! The Bible doesn't contain everything that happened, have you forgotten. The word of God is also passed down by oral tradition in the Church which is guided and taught everything by the Holy Spirit.

OLAADEGBU: Even though Africans use this phrase, they know who their siblings really are. Come to the West and find out that the kids here do not mix the two together, they know who their siblings are and they do not mix them up with relatives. It is only evolutionists that don't know who their true family are but ignorantly claim that the earth is their mother and the ape-like creature is their fathers. The Bible is clear on who Jesus' siblings are unless you are trying to force your church's interpretation into the Holy Scriptures.

I didn't say Jesus or anybody else doesn't know who their siblings are. I said people then in Israel, and in Nigeria refer to other relatives and countrymen as "brothers" and "sisters". STOP DRIBBLING AROUND.

The Bible doesn't state that Mary had any other kids. "Brothers" are not necessarily siblings, in the Bible.

Scripture can have only one true interpretation. If it is not The Catholic interpretation, which is it? Yours?

OLAADEGBU: "And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS"(Matthew 1:25).

Mary remained a virgin after her marriage to Joseph until after the birth of Jesus. And did you notice the part that says "her firstborn son"?

This is another case where our modern understanding of terms interferes with understanding what the Bible meant at the time it was written. In biblical times, the term "firstborn" had great importance. The firstborn was to be consecrated to the Lord (Ex. 13:2); the parents were to redeem every firstborn son (Ex. 34:20). They weren't supposed to wait until they had a second child to redeem the firstborn, and so the first son born to a woman was called the firstborn regardless of whether or not she had other children later on.

ijawkid: I can't imagine u tryin to coÑvince d whole nairaland that Jesus was d only chÍld mary gave birth to....??
Hmmmmm....

I'm not tryna convince d whole nairaland. I'm only doing dis for people who might b genuinely unsure, not for those who see d truth but deliberately refuse it.

ijawkid: It means after Jesus birth Joseph never had sex with mary

Never! Why do you find it hard to believe that God didn't share a womb with any man?

ijawkid: Ola even gave u d right scripture that hit d nail on d head still u try to dodge using logic and d catholics teaching to bortress ur own heretic point.....

You have to use logic sometimes because the Bible wasn't written in English and the historical and cultural context in which it was written is different from what we have here and now. We must take that into consideration sometimes.

ijawkid: So Jesus brothers in matth. 12:46 could be his cousins but mary remained his mother(constant) not his big aunty?

Two of the so-called siblings of Jesus (James and Joseph)have been shown to be sons of another Mary. Did you miss that?

ijawkid: Because in africa especially in nigeria we call elderly aunties mummy too...
Now if that explanation is not from ur own originality,can we say it agrees with d bible

It does too... Stephen refered to members of the council as "brothers and fathers". Does it mean it was his brothers and fathers (in the literal sense) that stoned him to death?

ijawkid: U wanna tell me d bible has never explained a family tree where cousins are involved
U wanna tell me that D bible doesn't knw hw to differentiate cousins from immediate siblings and sÓ it needs ur help??
U see where this catholic church dey carry ona go??

Here goes the typical anti-Catholic lunacy. See how you interprete what we are doing.

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

18 Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them that he had said these things to her.

Why did Mary go to the disciples when Jesus clearly said "brothers". Was she trying to say Jesus couldn't differentiate btw disciples and immediate siblings? That Jesus needed her help? Think!

ijawkid: Even with clear evidence from d bible u still erroneously explain that verse....

What is there in agreeing that mary gave birth to other kids??

What is there is that it didn't happen.

ijawkid: Will Ít kill catholics or they just wanna satisfy a dogma that is not biblical....

Unfortunately for you, even the Bible is part of Catholic doctrine. The Bible never said "Bible". It was the Catholic Church that created it and canonized it. Kill yourself if its too hard to take.

logicboy: Confession, pennance, rosaries, communion. I did all the nonsense.

LIAR! While others were confessing, praying, repenting and going to communion, you were doing NONSENSE.

What parish?

Who was the parish priest?

What mass did you attend there?

What time of the week was benediction(if you knew what that meant, before you 'google' it up) there?

What Catholic Religious order runs the parish?

Hardcore Catholic my foot.

You can deceive others, not me.

logicboy: Confession, pennance, rosaries, communion. I did all the nonsense.

LIES!

What parish?

Who was the parish priest?

What mass did you attend there?

What time of the week was benediction(if you knew what that meant, before you 'google' it up) there?

What Catholic Religious order runs the parish?

Hardcore Catholic my foot.

You can deceive others, not me.

logicboy: You have no idea what it is to be a hardcore catholic. I never missed sunday mass for years. To question if I was a christian is quite insulting especially if you are not a catholic.

I'm an atheist now and no going back.

You were never a "hardcore Catholic", if there is anything like that. Perhaps you meant to say, you were a HARD-HEARTED Catholic who never really let Christ penetrate him. A Catholic should just be physically present at mass. We must ensure that our hearts and minds are alert and engaged with Christ sacrificial love which is re-presented at mass. We must go forth from the mass to serve God in one another as Father says. And when we cut ourselves off God's love, we must go to confession to be reconciled with God. We must live the sacraments. Did you do these? No! Perhaps you were one of those 'Catholics' who went to Church only to listen to Father say "Mass is ended, go in peace."

Ubenedictus: this is a beautiful explanation, wow u are gud. You put everything in the right place. Im wondering, are you a theologian or just very knowledgable?

Thanks for the compliments. Though I'm not a Theologian per se, but I read the writings of Theologians and learn from them both on-line and off-line. I know that The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth so any interpretation of scripture that is outside what the Church teaches is wrong. The Church canonized and validated the Bible, so how can we teach the Church what is contained in scripture.

OLAADEGBU: "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him." (Mark 6:3) The Evidence Bible.

It is clear as daylight that this verse is talking about Jesus' siblings.

No, it isn't. Because I have shown you in my previous post that "brother" in the Bible doesn't always mean male sibling.

OLAADEGBU: You can see from this verse that Jesus had 4 half brothers and at least 2 sisters and for this reason we can deduct that Mary was no longer a Virgin after she gave birth to our Lord Jesus Christ.

So you are saying Mary had at least 6 other children and Jesus insulted them by handing over their mum to John to take into his home, at the foot of the cross.

OLAADEGBU: The Greek word used here, that you keep referring to (adelphos), does not even mean half brother not to talk of relative, it actually means "brother" So it is not likely that they were cousins or relatives or even "Jewish brethren" as you would wish them to be.

So the thousands of "adelphos" at pentecost were siblings of the apostles? You wan kill apostles mothers abi...

OLAADEGBU: These children are said to be with Mary without any iota of evidence that they were her nephews or nieces

.

They were never called sons and daughters of Mary, and Jesus was called "THE son of Mary", not "A son of Mary." That's an indication that he was Mary's only son.

OLAADEGBU: The word "mother" is also mentioned simultaneously in Mark 3:31; Luke 8:19; John 2:12 and Acts 1:14.

My dear, the fact that the Jews had no word for "cousin" should tell you how close they were to their extended relatives - they considered them brothers and sisters. Just like we Africans; we consider relatives as brothers and sisters. A yoruba man would call his cousin "egbon mi" or "aburo mi", Igbos would say "nwanne m", even though nwannem literally means "my mother's child", they'd use it to refer to siblings, cousins, kinsmen or evn other fellow Igbos. So why should you be shocked that they were that close to Mary on those occasions, especially since, she might have well been a widow at the time.

OLAADEGBU: Moreover, Matthew 1:25 does not say Mary remained a Virgin for life, but it said that she had no s.ex with Joseph until our Lord Jesus Christ was born.

The word "until" seems to indicate that after the birth of Jesus there were sexual relations. However, the Greek word "heos" which is translated as until, neither implies that anything happened after Jesus' birth, nor does it exclude it. The point of the verse is that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus. Another example of the word "until" being used this way is found in Luke 1:80. In reference to John the Baptist it states, "The child grew and became strong in spirit, and he was in the desert until the day of his manifestation to Israel." Does this mean that once he appeared publicly he left the desert? It might appear so, but we know that he was in the desert after that.

2 Samuel 6:23 “Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto (until, in Greek) the day of her death.” Does this mean that after her death she started having children? No. 1 Timothy 4:13 “Till (until in Greek) I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.” Does this mean that after St. Paul comes St. Timothy can then stop doing those things? No.

logicboy: If I say that you are stupid, you will sat that i am insulting you. 'm sure that it is out of stupidity that you only talked about seeing and touching? You cant feel, smell, taste or hear? Did I only say concrete scientific evidence? You have started lying again. If I can see something, do I need scientific evidence for it? Remember that I aid that if I can see it or feel it or touch it or there is evidence for it.

Little kid. Seeing, feeling, smelling, hearing and tasting are all parts of the ways to obtain scientific evidence.

logicboy: Can you feel love? Do you get erections? do you hug? Do you do some actions that people do when you're in love? Are there not patriotic acts?

Like I said before, one who is not in love can do all these things. People can even do something seemingly 'patriotic' only because of the recognition, fame or money that they'd get from it. That is not necessarily love. Whatever actions people do when in love, they can do when NOT in love. So they are not EVIDENCES of love.

logicboy: As for dreaming, we all dream. Do we not see our dreams? I can see my dream. End of story.

Its Good you know that we can SEE WITHOUT OUR EYES. I see GOD. End of story.

logicboy: You have to lie to prove your points.

Where is the LIE? You should spend more time on a dictionary than on forums.

logicboy: Concrete evidence for evolution is in our DNA. You chose to remain ignorant. Let's see you lie your way out of this

An indication of "evolution." NOT concrete evidence.

logicboy: Anyone with common sense would see that I clearly explained the theory behind evolution and why scientists conclude that we came from single celled organisms.

You completely ignored it and went on saying some ignorant things.

Mr man, what is your problem! I thought you said you had rested your case.

Besides, I didn't ask you to explain and just tell me why scientists conclude what they conclude. Religious people can also explain faith and the existence of God to you and tell you how religious leaders conclude on the existence of God but you wouldn't really take it as evidence, would you? You want to shake God's hand. Perhaps, you only came to believe the evolution theory after seeing a video of a single-celled organism evolving into the human specie over billions of years. Show me that video or some equally strong evidence. If you cannot, shut up and watch cyrexx help you out.

cyrexx: you missed it, you cant prove a negative. God is non-existent needs no proof. it is you who says he exists that you need to prove he exists. for example. i cant prove that I am not seeing you now. but if i see you now as you are typing, then i can prove that i see you. bring forth your proofs that shows that God exists.

What do you mean "you can't prove a negative"? You CAN prove a negative! You can prove that you're not seeing me now by providing evidence (e.g pictures and videos) that show that, right now, I'm in a place that is out of your line of sight, from where you are right now, and you are not using any gadget (e.g a webcam) that is capable of helping you view me without me being directly in your line of sight.

I usually don't go around, telling Atheists that God exists or telling Muslims that Jesus is The Way, The Truth and The Life. I only defend those truths when it is attacked by falsehood. I really don't care much about what Atheists say or think, because i know that they don't really want proof of God's "non-existence": no matter the proof you give, they'll usually not accept, at least not in public.

cyrexx: as for the theory of evolution, it provides a better explanation than the creation story. you cant prove a creation story either. your attempt to squash evolution theory does not prove the creation story

Firstly, I don't think the evolution theory is incompatible with the Bible's account of creation so I am not trying to squash anything. I am largely indifferent about evolution. I think there might be some truth to some of its propositions, but there might also be some fallacies.

Secondly; all I've been trying to do is not to prove the creation story. I have been trying to prove that: the premise that something doesn't exist if you cannot provide concrete scientific evidence is flawed. Atheists only hypocritically apply it when they are "seeking" proof of God. There's no way to provide concrete scientific evidence that a person did or did not dream, for instance, but Atheists, like the rest of us believe in dreams. There's also no way to provide concrete scientific evidence that a person loves or does not love his/her country but Atheists, like the rest of us believe that people do love their countries. They claim that religious people only believe what they have been told by their leaders but that is the same thing Atheists do.

So since logicboy is arguing against that I've been asking him for evidence - NOT explanation - of some of the things that he believes. He has provided none. I have also shown to him that he believes many things, not because he has SEEN or TOUCHED concrete evidence of them, but because scientists have SAID they have evidence and he BELIEVES his 'religious leaders'.

Now do you want to prove - NOT EXPLAIN - some of these things or do you accept that we can be sure that something exists without having concrete scientific evidence of it.