₦airaland Forum

I have a right to be bored sweetheart. *still bored*

@wordtalk,

I hope you're not insinuating that baptism is not a work!

That a man will leave his house, go to the Church and submit himself to be submerged in water(in some cases), and that is not a WORK or DEED? No you won't say that.

@PastorAIO,

I would love to explain but these are very broad concepts that will only confuse the thread more, in my opinion. But I'll do it a lil l8r all d same

@Jesoul,

The Douay-Rheims Bible, New Jerusalem Bible and New American Bible.

Can a man be saved without being baptized?

Was Judas saved?

Atheists seem more obsessed with God than many who believe in God.

Any of the Catholic versions. Because they were translated and interpreted under the supervision of the one Church Jesus founded.

In order to understand that work is necessary for salvation, let's look at it from verse 3-7.

3
For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, deluded, slaves to various desires and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful ourselves and hating one another.
4
But when the kindness and generous love
of God our savior appeared,
5
not because of any righteous deeds we had done
but because of his mercy,
he saved us through the bath of rebirth
and renewal by the holy Spirit,
6
whom he richly poured out on us
through Jesus Christ our savior,
7
so that we might be justified by his grace
and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

So he's saying, 'they also were once in sin'(verse 3), but Gods love appeared 'not because of the righteous deeds we had done, but because of mercy'(verse 4,5) - of course they hadd done no righteous deeds, except maybe the works of the law before Gods love appeared(remember he's talking about before they became christians)

He goes on to say(verse 5) "he saved us through the bath of rebirth
and renewal by the holy Spirit," That is simply baptism. So he saved them with baptism. Baptism is a work. He saved them with a work. So without 'work', they wouldn't be saved.

So we both agree that salvation starts at Baptism. Salvation is not a one-time thing and one can lose it. A good example could be Judas. That's why in verse 7, St. Paul talks about 'becoming heirs in HOPE of eternal life'.

You don't hope for what is certain. You only hope for what is not certain.

Well, I will just ignore your last post because to me you said nothing concrete.

'Work out your salvation' is clear enough and doesn't need too much merry go round.

And the fact I said you can demonstrate your gift doesn't mean that's what the bible says. It is not.

Now to your verses

*boring*

I'm sorry for all the harsh words brother. We get too passionate sometimes. Forgive me. We don't have to agree but we can share our beliefs with respect.

Yes! For you.

Oh! So its now "perform", initially you said "demonstrate". This is getting hilarious.

Well, if salvation is purely a gift that does not demand any form of action, then 'PERFORM YOUR SALVATION' does not make sense.

You don't 'perform' a gift, do you?

You can demonstrate(show) your gift, but you can't perform it. So drop that.

And no English dictionary in the world defines 'work out' as perform. Those who translated the 'katergazomai' into English could have used 'perform' but they didn't. Instead they chose 'work out' which means 'TO ACHIEVE WITH WORK OR EFFORT'.

You can neither change the texts of the Bible nor that of the English dictionary.

ADMIT THAT! Then we move to your verses. If you're trying to change this text, how are we sure you won't do the same by the time we start dissecting those verses.

Besides, if salvation begins at the new birth (which is baptism or being born again), that means salvation begins with a work and is not possible without a work. Because having faith is one thing, but being born again (accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and saviour as some would call it) is a work.

The Roman centurion had the greatest faith in Israel, but he wasn't necessarily born again.

, And chances are, your grandchildren will embrace God.

@wordtalk,

Lol. I thought you wanted us to discuss in a logical sequential manner. I give you my word, I'll address the verses you brought up, but shouldn't that be after we have concluded with this 'work out your salvation' verse? Of course. And have we concluded? No!

I asked, why does the Bible say 'work out your salvation', if works are not necessary for salvation?

And you said 'work out' means "to demonstrate something that someone already has".

But all the English dictionaries in the world disagree with that definition. Infact many say it means to 'achieve by work or effort' - which is the same meaning of the original greek word 'katerzago'.

So clearly, it's either you didn't know the meaning of 'work out' or you deliberately lied just to buttress your point. Courtsey demands you apologize for either.

Now, seeing that you were wrong, do you have any better explanation to buttress your point?

If not can we take it that the verse is saying - to substitute the dictionary meaning - 'ACHIEVE - BY WORK OR EFFORT - YOUR SALVATION?

Then we can move to Eph 2: 8,9; 2Tim 1: 9, Tit 3: 5. I'm so eager.

Well, you just did!

So if you say "you can't use the words 'religion' and 'think' in the sentence", you're the one who's WRONG and should be CHANGED.

@Joagbaje,

1. The phrasal verb 'work out', as many other words, have many meanings. It could even mean 'to calculate', but the definition I gave is the one that fits the context of what St. Paul is talking about. Of course he's not talking in the context of 'exercising' just as he's not talking of 'calculation'.

2. The verb 'work out', when used to mean 'exercise', is an intransitive verb, and intransitive verbs cannot have an object. Other examples of intransitive verbs are: die, sleep. You can say 'the dog died' or I will sleep', but you cannot have an object added after it. That's the same way you cannot add on object to 'work out'. So its grammatically impossible to say 'work out(exercise) your salvation.

3. As I mentioned earlier, the word for work 'out' in the original greek text of the Bible is 'katergazo' and it means: to accomplish, achieve or produce; which is consistent with the dictionary definition I gave you.

4. When we started this discussion, I asked you whether you wanted truth or you wanted to win the argument. You said you wanted truth and I believed you because people seem to call you a Pastor (I don't know - I'v never asked you). But it doesn't seem like you are after the truth anymore because the truth is staring you in the face and you are ashamed to accept it. Just imagine how our Lord is looking down on you now. Do you not think that it will be better for Atheists who do not know Jesus to refuse the truth than it will be for one who has already come to know Jesus to refuse the truth? Because the Truth is Jesus!

@ Pastor AIO and Enigma,

You guys need to see this discussion I'm having with wordtalk on the same topic

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-756426.64.html

Then you'll understand the kind of mind we are dealing with.

You can read from post #86

@diluminati,

Have you not read the OP?

It says "what made you think your religion is the right one?"

So I think my answer is sufficient.

I might give out more details later though.

@frosbel,

I thought you were repentant. Judging from your OP.

Anyway, I'm sorry for using such language on you and your parents. I really am. It never gave me any pleasure. But you must realize that, just as you love your family, I love the Catholic Church (my spiritual family) too, probably even more. So at the time I just wanted you to get a taste of how I feel everytime you rain insults on The Catholic Church. I'm not saying agree with us or love us, you don't have to. Just like I don't have to love your family or you. I'm just saying RESPECT!

There's nothing wrong with airing opposing views in an atmosphere of respect.

I really hope you can really repent of this insultive attitude as you seemed to set out to do. You can start now, let this "Mary worshipper" you called me be the last of its kind not just on me, but on everyone else. Don't you see that everyone seems to talk bad about you? Atheists, Muslims, Christians - Catholics, Protestants, Pentecostals, non-denominationals, Jehovah's witnesses etc.

I'm not saying this to ridicule you and I'm sorry if I hurt you with anything I just said it in hope that we can all see a better Frosbel.

No need to dribble around bros, nobody's saying salvation is of works and you know it. Quit the drama. We all know its by grace, we're just saying man has to respond with faith and works. You say works have no bearing, just faith.

*rather be hypertensive than lose my sanity*

I'll stop repeating when you give me satisfactory answers.

So you say to 'work out' is "to demonstrate something that someone already has." That's the definition you've 'manufactured' so that it suits your arguement. Can you provide proof that that's what 'work out' means from any English dictionary?

Thefreedictionary.com says work out means: "to achieve or accomplish by effort"

Dictionary.com says it means: "to bring about by work, effort, or action"

Also, the Greek word translated as “work out” is katergazo, and it means to accomplish, achieve, or produce.

So what does 'wordtalkdictionary.com' say?

@belabela,

The Torah is not the Bible. The Torah is part of the Bible but it is not the Bible, Neither is the New Testament. The Bible is a combination of the old & new testament so its a distinct book on its own. Afterall many who believe in the Torah do not believe in the Bible.

Dont just say The Catholic Church was "instrumental" as if they did it in collaboration with any other group. The Catholic Church did bring the books together and name it The Bible. But not just that, there were countless letters written by the apostles and other religious men and leaders eg the Acts of Peter, Gospel of Nicodemus, etc. The Catholic Church declared the ones we use today as inspired while they discarded the others as uninspired.

The Catholic Church wrote the new testament for Catholics, and I will explain.

All these authors you mentioned were part of the early church, right? People like Peter and Paul passed down their apostolic authority to people like Mathias(who replaced Judas), Luke, Timithy etc. They in turn passed it on to others and this tradition has been maintain till the present day Catholic clergy. The name 'catholic' which means universal was added to the church to distinguish it from the many heretical sects that were springing up. You might find it hard to accept but let's look at it objectively:

If belabela started making beads and selling from home 5yrs ago and later on she registered the business name 'belabela beads', got a shop and now she has shops in Paris, London and New York, could one say that 'belabela beads' of today is not the same as that nameless home-business of five years ago? NO!

So the same way, the early church is the catholic church and it wrote those letters to the faithful.

Well, as a child, I was indoctrinated of course. I was taken to church, catechism, taught the prayers etc. But I became lukewarm in my teenage years, not going to mass, I just knew I was catholic but knew little about the faith. That lukewarmness led me to experience other faiths at least to certain extents. It was as a result of this that I began to think deep. There's only one God, so there's only one truth. If Christianity says Jesus is the son of God and Islam says he was just a prophet, then one of them is a lie, they can't both be correct. I started to ask Muslim friends about their faith more, and I studied what Islam n Christianity said about various topics. If the Quran says Jesus is a prophet of God it means Jesus wouldn't lie. And Jesus said he was the Son of God, also the Bible makes no mention of Muhammad so it was a no-brainer for me. It was easy to deduce who was right and who was wrong.

@ Enigma,

You've really explained these things very well in a way that any sensible Christian would understand. Unfortunately, not all fall into that category.

Just sit back and wait for the next bout of 'trash'. You'll remember I warned you.

So why does the bible tell us to 'work out our salvation'?

Ah ah! See pot calling snow black. Lmao. Are you not the one neglecting the words of Jesus. Oh! There's nothing meaningful to say anymore but you just wanna say something. Its understandable.

What type of reasoning process adjudges that if only a terrorist believes that Jesus is his personal Lord and saviour and crashes a plane into the WTC killing thousands including himself, he's still bound for a smooth ride to heaven, As long as he believes.

What kind of mammal believes that?

Its better to hit the nail on the head with one word than spend a million words beating around the bush.

Oga which one is your own true doctrine? Your own is to say Catholics did this , Catholics did dat. You can't diisprove purgatory n necessity of works, you're moving to Mary and temporal punishment. Ok, you got the written word from the Catholic book - the Bible, where do you get the tradition and oral word from? Your bedroom?

Whch one dyu wanna face, let's face it. Just when you find sm1 who puts d truth abt a topic up in ur face, u jump 2anoda topic. Dats wat ur all like.

My dear The Catholic Church is the same church that had the apostles as its foundation. The word 'catholic' is a description. Just like the apostles had to chose Mathias to succeed Judas and people like Titus and Timothy came later, so The Catholic Church has maintaind an unbroken line of Apostolic succession to this day. And I don't know why you keep mentioning the Bible, its clearly part of Catholic tradition. We decided which books were inspired and which were not. So if you reject Catholicism, you should reject the bible, the trinity as well. Its sooooo simple.

And I was talking about the time between 200 and 350 AD. Acts 2:42 was written long before then.

Forgive Gabriel the Archangel, he was the one that first said the 'Hail Mary', and whatever an angel says is what God wants him to say.

What doctrine do you follow? Let's see if its the one true doctrine the bible talks about.

You have used a million words but have still not answered my questions - at least reasonably.

1 Cor 3: 15 says people will be saved after undergoing punishment as through the fire, and that clearly supports the doctrine of purgatory. If you have any other explanation of that verse, let's hear it.

Also, 1 Cor 3: 14,15,17 clearly shows that its everyone's work that will be judged on that day. Be you destined for a reward, salvation or destruction. Its not mere faith that will be judged. Infact faith is not mentioned at all.

@Frosbel,

So are we Catholics free from your senseless insults and unnecessary lies and hate campaign too?