₦airaland Forum

To go right back to the topic, u mentioned Titus 3:5:

he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit

Firstly dat verse says 'he saved us through the washing of rebirth'

The washing of rebirth is Baptism, and dat is a work.

Remember that in Ephesians, Paul said 'through faith', now he says, 'through baptism'

Secondly, further down in verse 7, he says:
so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the HOPE of eternal life

Why is he talking of HOPE if he has been saved once and for all.

When you 'hope', it means you're not sure.

Dear brother, how is it that you look and look, and you do not see these things?

You don't have to love The Catholic Church but pls, if we are going to have a meaningful search for truth, I demand that you at least show some respect for my spiritual family. Save the word 'cult' for some other occasion.

At a point I askd u if it was truth u were after or you jst wntd to win this argument.

I know you think of us as a cult and dats y we're having this discussion. I'm using the Bible to prove to you that our teachings are not unscriptural and so far you haven't been able to prove otherwise. But you have your mind made up so the easy way out is to launch an insult.

Yes they killed protestants and protestants killed catholics too. And that's not the only sin we've committed. Ours is a church of both saints and sinners. Jesus said if you call a man 'fool', you're in danger of hell fire. So we must have committed many sins. Just like Peter did when he discriminated against the Gentiles. But does that mean its not Christ's church? No!

Eph 2: 8,9,10 goes: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Notice how verse 8 says 'through faith - and that isn't from yourselves, it's a gift from God. And verse 9 says not by works, so no man can boast.
Verse 10 caps it up by saying 'we are created in Christ and destined by God to do good works'

To summarize we have faith in God and do Good works by the Grace of God. So we are saved by grace.

Does that mean faith is not necessary? No!
Does that mean works are not necessary? No!
Does that contradict my position? No! - infact it buttresses it.

I'll answer you 5solas(remember, we r talkn about purgatory, But just a question for you, Joagbaje and anyone else.

Where did the good thief on the cross go immediately after he died?

Heaven or hell?

Starting from your last post, I dare say that that which you wrote is not an official declaration of The Catholic Church. You didn't just 'paraphrase', you intentionally and maliciously distorted it - and that wasn't necessary. The official declarations are not so long that they can't enter this thread, or are they?

Regarding Romans 11: 6, it doesn't contradict the Position of James, The Catholic Church and I. Did I not say that salvation is by grace alone?, but faith and works are necessary. So I say again, the Catholic Church does not teach that salvation is by works. I'm even tired of telling you the same thing a million times and you still not getting it. I'm not a nursery school teacher, abeg. I'm sorry to use that language but I can't keep repeating the same thing from post #1 to #50 and you still don't get it. Was is works that saved them? No! But did they do good works? YES! - they didn't bow to Baal.

Have you taken a look @d preceding verses to see that Paul was talkn about the Israelites who were unfaithful and God sayn he had reserved 7000 for himself who did not bow to baal.

And it isn't the Catholic Church that said we are justified by faith and works, it was the Holy Spirit through St. James. How long will it take you to figure that out too?

You surely can't blame me for following the Church that was instituted by Jesus Christ, the Church built on Simon Peter(the rock), the Church of the 12 apostles, the 70 disciples, the early Church Fathers that we have today through a proven and unbroken line of apostolic succession. The Church which Paul said was d foundation and Pillar of the truth. The Church that wrote the new testament and compiled the bible - deciding what books to choose and what books to discard. The Church that has always taught the word os God through writing, word of mouth and tradition. Which other Church out of the 33,000 others would you expect that I follow? Which do you follow? Or do you see youself as your own Church like people erroneously do?

Firstly I think your response is unnecessarily long. You spent many lines telling me 'salvation is by grace' as if that not what I sed alreadi.

Secondly, there are many other verses I can quote that show that works are necessary for salvation. I just want less deviation so I chose this one which is very clear and irrefutable. Just look how long I had to wait and how many times I had to put it up in ur face b4 I cud evn get a response from u - and an unconvincing one to say the least.

Salvation is by the grace of God, but the human response which is faith working through love is necessary. Faith and works are necessay for salvation. It is by God's grace that we come to have faith and do his will. We can do nothing without God's grace.

I don't know how else I want to say it that I'll be totally understood. If I say works are necessary, does it mean that I'm saying we are saved by works?

You have written a thousand words and you have still not addressed James 2: 20. You just don't want to believe that it means what it means because you think other parts are in contradiction to it.

Since you can't address it, I'll now address your verses and tell you why they are not in contradiction to what James and the Catholic Church is saying.

We're obviously talking about two different things. So sorry about your lot in life.

Also remember post #44

And have you admitted that good works are necessary for salvation or are you insisting that faith alone without doing good works can earn you salvation?

I think that's also crucial to this argument.

Its good you brought this:

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

In verse 15, you have ignored the 'if any man's work shall be burned', 'he shall suffer loss' and 'yet so as by fire' parts, and boldened only the 'but he himself shall be saved' part.

But that 'suffering loss' and 'saved as by fire' is what we Catholics call PURGATORY.

In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti. Amen. Dominus vobiscum.

Aww! False Church, catholic sect, your prostitute mother, your pedophile and fraudulent parents,,, am sory abt dat. I dnt envy your lot in life - to be brought up in such circumstances. I tot you were talkn abt d One Holy Catholic And Apostolic Church. Sorry.

I have stated my position clearly and backed it up with James 2 in posts #1, #3, #38, #39, #44, and you've been part of this thread from the start so don't pretend you don't know my position.

Everytime you see me ask you about James 2, you try to deviate from it. Here we go again:

James 2: 14 asks: "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith SAVE him?"

5solas answers: YES! - "Faith and faith alone justifies (SAVES)"

James 2: 17 answers: NO! - "So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is DEAD."

James 2: 20 asks again: "DO YOU WANT PROOF, YOU IGNORAMUS, THAT FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS USELESS?"

What's your answer this time, 5Solas?

@Jayriginal, experience has taught me that THEY always stop a verse short, Or they start a verse late.

Glory to Jesus, honour to Mary!

What is it with you and harlots? Does ur mum have several men coming over, taking turns on her? Were you brought up in a brothel?

@Frosbel, I was just trying to know if your mother is the harlot you were talking about. I didn't want believe you were talking about my own Mother - the Catholic Church. Do you find anything inappropriate in my statement?

Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

@Joagbaje,

Well 'hell', when it's used in the Bible is a translation from three words: the hebrew word 'sheol', the greek word 'hades' (which both mean a temporary abode for the dead - good and bad); and the greek word 'gehenna' (which means a place of eternal fire and damnation).

Proof of 'hell' being used as 'gehenna' can be found in Mark 9: 43-48 & Matt 18: 8 & 9.

And there's more than an indication that Onesiphorus was dead

Because Paul speaks of Onesiphorus only in the past tense, wishes present blessings upon his family, and mercy for him "in that day", towards the end of the same letter, in 2 Timothy 4:19, Paul sends greetings to "Prisca and Aquila, and the family of Onesiphorus", again distinguishing the situation of Onesiphorus from that of the still living Prisca and Aquila.

So paul prayed for mercy for Onesiphorus, I don't want to believe you are insinuating that Paul was praying for Onesiphorus to have a greater reward, Because, firstly, there no indication of that; secondly, what mercy could you wish for one who already has eternal life? Do you not see what Rev 20: 6 says about them? "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years".

What I want is the TRUTH, not to win this argument. I hope that's your goal too because if it's not, no matter what I point out to you, you can find a way to disagree.

I will explain those verses you highlighted but before then let's talk about the passage I quoted earlier on this thread which you didn't address but referred me to wordtalk's response. Wordtalk is wordtalk and 5solas is 5solas.

James 2: 14 asks: "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith SAVE him?"

5solas answers: YES! - "Faith and faith alone justifies (SAVES)"

James 2: 17 answers: NO! - "So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

It was neither the Catholic Church nor I that asked and answered this question so clearly, it was the Holy Spirit, And I don't know how a christian can hear the Holy Spirit speak so clearly and still argue with him.

Even if you don't want to publicly admit to what this passage is saying, you can quietly ignore. But to blantantly deny what is so clear, I'm sorry to say, is a disgrace, And how can we continue with other verses when we can't even agree on this simple one?

@Plappville, I like you but sometimes I don't understand you. Have I said God will not judge everyman?

@Claremont, I want to believe you're smart enough to get my point.

@Frosbel, who's the harlot? Your mother?

John 15: 18-20:"If the world hates you, realize that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own; but because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world, the world hates you. Remember the word I spoke to you,* ‘No slave is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you.

Luke 23:20: Wanting to release Jesus, Pilate appealed to them again. 21 But they kept shouting, “Crucify him! Crucify him!”

Nowhere did I say there's a 2nd chance for one who turns down the gospel.

And if hell is the temporary abode of the wicked, where is their permanent abode?

To torment your Father and Mother for not training you

The Pope will never be an ex-head of state until he dies. The Hague can try and convict his soul then. You'll b d presiding judge.

Dats not d Pope sista.

@Joagbaje, I'll wait to see if you're following and/or have any reservations before I continue.

All I've been doing is try to show that there's a state in the afterlife that is neither heaven nor hell.

*trying to avoid any distraction or deviation in this search for truth*

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.. Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5: who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Loading

Purgatory is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

Now in order to fully grasp this you must know that the Catholic Church teaches that we will pay for every sin we commit, in this life (through suffering, prayer, acts of charity etc) or in the next life (purgatory), even if those sins are already forgiven.

Purgatory is not for those who die in mortal sin (they go to hell), and those who die without mortal and venial sin and have fully suffered the temporal punishment for their forgiven sins go straight to heaven.

Dats for the explanation of what purgatory is. I'll be back with the scriptural backing.

If only we said 'thy will be done' and meant it.

Take a cue from Jesus himself: Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me, however, not my will but yours be done.

He suffered and died, But then he went on into eternal glory.

Many of us these days don't want to suffer any thing.

Before I can show you how purgatory is in the Bible, you have to know what we mean by purgatory. Do you?

I can't prove to you that an orange tree is in the bush if you don't even know what an orange tree is, can I?