₦airaland Forum

There still nothing in Matt 25: 36 that shows that those who were called 'righteous' were believers and those called 'cursed' were unbelievers. That one is 5solas' addition to the Passage.

And the fact that the kingdom was prepared before the foundation of the world doesn't mean it was prepared for those who have just faith and do no good things. That's not what the passage is saying.

Also, a righteous person is not merely one who has faith but one who is morally upright, doing the will of God and avoiding sin.

Wasnt the word 'catholic' which means 'universal', added to 'the church' early on to distinguish it from the many heretical sects that kept springing up. Is 'catholic' not merely an appelation but a description of 'the church' or was the church Paul was talking about not universal?

"How are we to find the doctrine of the apostles"? You ask. Is it wordtalk that should tell us the criteria for identifying apostolic tradition. Haven't we already been handed the tradition through a proven and unbroken line of apostolic succession from the first apostles to the 2nd generation apostles to the early church fathers to the present day Catholic clergy?

And if you dislike Catholic tradition so much, shouldn't you discard the Bible too. Is the Bible not a part of Catholic tradition? Is there anywhere in the Bible that we find that there should be a book that will be the sole Authorized deposit of faith? Is the word 'Bible' even in the bible? Is it not unscriptural? Were the books of the Bible not enumerated and canonized by the Catholic Church in the fourth century? How then was the early church - let's say from 200 AD to 350 AD - run? Wasn't it primarily through Tradition got from Apostolic succession?

On purgatory,

If you answer is NO, then why does 1Cor 3:15 talk about one being punished as through the fire and being saved (which would be purgatory)?

On works,

Why then, is it that in verse 17, those who have very bad works (they destroy the body) are destroyed by God? Doesn't it show that it is mortal sin that leads to damnation, since nothing is mentioned of their faith?

And we both know I have never said salvation is by works so pls don't bother bringing up that distraction.

Forgive me if you don't like "catholic goggles" but wasn't it the same Catholics that wrote the new testament, compiled the Bible and gave it to the world? And doesn't that Bible say in 1 Tim 3: 15 that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth? And in 2 Thess. 2:15 - Does Paul not clearly command us to obey oral apostolic tradition. He says stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, either by word of mouth or letter. Does this verse not prove that for apostolic authority, oral and written communications are on par with each other? What then is wrong with "catholic googles" if it is in line with the Church's teaching?

1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for salvation as you assert, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?

Maybe you can help me put the matter of purgatory to rest really quickly. If there's nothing like purgatory in the bible, why is it that 1 Cor 3: 15 says "But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved,* but only as through fire". Will people be punished through the fire to be saved?

For #64

Purgatory is taught in the Bible. Its you who refuse to see it.

You see its difficult for me to spend time answering the rest of the post when you don't even know what the argument is about after almost 70 posts.

I have said on at least 5 occasions that salvation is BY GRACE but the human response, FAITH & WORKS are necessary.

And you're saying 'I see you can't handle d fact dat Abraham was justified by grace and not by works.

Isn't it clear derz a problem smwer and its not with me?

For #63

Yes. I will most-likely pay for all my sins, forgiven or not. If my sins are forgiven, I will pay, through suffering, prayer, acts of charity etc.

Jesus' death and resurrection has saved me from eternal punishment, not temporal punishment.

And I shdnt evn b answering because d answer to ur questions are in ur post alredi.

Why are women still undergoing pains to bring forth a child?

Why does Jesus say 'we'll render account for every careless word'?

You should hav addressed that before turning around to ask further questions.

Do you think I was expectn Wordtalk to see how purgatory could be derived from my posts? You who cdnt see how 'works being necessary for salvation could be derived from James 2: 20:"See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone". Naaa! I'm only posting these for anyone who might be reading with an open mind, genuinely seeking the truth.

Sori abt d confusion bt d state or process or condition of purgation will happen in a place, hether physical or spiritual.

#49 was to show that when we die, there's a place or state in the afterlife that is neither the eternal bliss of heaven or the eternal damnation of hell. Get it?

Ansa 2 post #58

Ecclesiastes 12:14 says: "God will bring every deed into judgment." And In Matthew 12:36-37 Jesus says: "On the Day of Judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter."

E.g: "To the woman he said, ‘I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children (Gen. 3:16)
That was punishment for Eve's sin which still affects every woman today, whether they are "saved" or not. Has God taken away the punishment for that "original sin"? NO!

"Then David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ Nathan answered David: ‘The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin; you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die’" (2 Sam. 12:13-14). God forgave David but David still had to suffer the loss of his son as well as other temporal punishments (2 Sam. 12:7-12). Did God 4giv? Yes. Did he still punish? YES!

I was using post #33, 34, 36, 43, 44, 46 to show scriptural evidence of some of the different parts of the doctrine of purgatory.

That there is/are a place/places or state/states in the afterlife that is/are neither heaven(eternal bliss) nor hell(eternal damnation) and That there can be forgiveness of/atonement for sins after death.

So while paradise is not exactly purgatory, its not irrelevant to my argument in that its neither heaven nor hell. Or do you disagree?

So can u answer mi in clear terms too? Where did d penitent thief go immediately afta his death? Heaven, hell or somewhere else?

no.

You tell us if "paradise" is the same thing that protestants refer to as "heaven" or "hell"

You win, Congratulations. Bye

@wordtalk, though I dnt wnt to discuss this topic further with you, I hav to beg you. Stop the blatant and wicked distortions of my position in the name of winning an argument. Nowhere hav I ever given d impression dat 'works' is the very basis of salvation. I hav sed not less than 4times on this thread that salvation is by grace, but faith n works as the human response are necessary, And u kno so quit d lies.

Now you can go on dribbling around the gospel, thank you.

Chai! No wonder there's mass failure in exams these days. Tell them the same thing a million times, they still won't get it.

I know that your mind is blocked so you do not perceive but all these WORDS and JESUS and the HOLY SPIRIT will be the ones to judge you as you continue to spread false teaching and hate, saying, the Catholic Church's teachings are unscriptural despite all the scriptural evidence to the contrary. Dominus vobiscum.

The Sheep and the Goats (Matthew 25)

    31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
   34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

   37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

   40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

   41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

   44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

   45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

   46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

'Cavillation' is a smart way to run away from the truth. The Jews said 'blasphemy', the relativists today say 'bigotry'. Nice one.

Hmm, we are learning o. What has Rome done this time?

How do you know who I worship? Isn't it God that sees a man's heart?

I believe in God, you don't. And you want me to explain to you what my Father says to me. Does that make sense? Why not stay out of our family business, what's the obsession with God whom you say doesn't exist?

Hmm, so it's no more Rome. Glory to Jesus, honour to Mary!

If you are children of God, you'll understand you'll understand the Father when he speaks.

And if you are not children of God, why bother over what our Father says to us?

Good message

You both don't know the meaning of Papal infallibility I guess. The right thing to do is find out instead of voicing a strong opinion on something you know little about

Which one is Powerline again, chai! Look what Martin Luther has caused!

And if you think its only James 2 I have to buttresses my point and that it contradict the whole Bible, here are about a million verses that show that works are necessary for salvation.

Rev. 22:12 - these verse teachs us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the "saved" and the "unsaved."

1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for salvation as youi believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?

Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others, and we get what we have given. Hence, we are judged according to how we responded to God's grace during our lives.

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can u believe in the erroneous teaching of "Once saved, always saved?" If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.

Matt. 16:27 – Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works).

Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus' teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even suggests that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ. Also, we don’t accept Christ; He accepts us. God first makes the decision to accept us before we could ever accept Him.

Mark 10:21 - Jesus says sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. This means that our salvation depends upon our works.

Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord's will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.

Luke 14:13 – Jesus says we are repaid for the works we have done at the resurrection of the just. Our works lead to salvation.

Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God's grace.

Gal. 6:7-9 – whatever a man sows, he will reap. Paul warns the Galatians not to grow weary in doing good works, for in due season they will reap (the rewards of eternal life).

Eph. 6:8 – whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same again from the Lord.

Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, we recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy.

1 Tim. 6:18-19 – the rich are to be rich in good deeds so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed, that is, eternal life.

2 Tim. 4:14 – Alexander the coppersmith did Paul great harm, and Paul says the Lord will requite him for his deeds.

Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven.

Heb. 12:14 – without holiness, no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires works of self-denial and charity, and does not come about simply by a profession of faith.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in applying the grace Jesus won for us at Calvary in our daily lives.

Rev. 2:5 - Jesus tells the Ephesians they have fallen from love they used to have, and orders them to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior.

Rev. 2:19 - Jesus judges the works of the Thyatirans, and despises their tolerance of Jezebel calling them to repentance.

Rev. 2:23 - Jesus tells us He will give to each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works.

Rev. 2:26 - Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved."

Rev. 3:2-5,8,15 – Jesus is judging our works from heaven, and these works bear upon our eternal salvation. If we conquer sin through faith and works, He will not blot our names out of the book of life. This means that works bear upon our salvation. Our “works” do not just deal with level of reward we will receive, but whether we will in fact be saved.

Rev. 14:12,13 - we are judged by the Lord by our works – “for their deeds follow them!” Our faith during our life is completed and judged by our works.

Rev. 20:12 – “the dead are judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.”

Rev. 22:12 – Jesus says, “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay everyone for what he has done.”

Gal 2: 16:
know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified

Don't u c dat by 'works of the law' he's talking about traditional Jewish customs? The law of Moses which the Jews held fast to. Not the works that Christ tells us to do.

Do you read some of these verses or u jst go and copy from wordtalk and paste here?