₦airaland Forum

@Wordtalk, congrats on having the last word. *have a nice day*

@Joagbaje, at least you (unlike the master-dribbler) admit that there are works in there. "Actions which accompany our faith", you said.

Now let my summarize what I believe, as I have done earlier. We are saved by Grace alone, but the human response which is faith working through love is necessary. FAITH & WORKS are necessary. Do you still have any objection to that?

However, I must ask you, what do you seek? The truth or victory in this argument. Because the only way we can reason logically is if we both seek the truth.

You people amaze me sometimes. You say that Catholic teachings are unscriptural and you refer to the Bible to buttress your point. Now a Catholic is showing you Bible verses that support the Church's teaching, you have left 'scripture', you're referring me to Wordtalk.

What do you seek? The truth (Jesus) or victory in the argument.

I hope 'achieve your salvation by effort' should be enough. It's afterall common English, like you said.

Oga, purgatory's in d Bible wether you can find it or not.

And like I said I'd love to discuss these things but not with someone who sees "work out your salvation" and says works have no effect on salvation. You are telling me that it is not 'work for'. So if I show you a place that says 'work for your salvation', you can as well tell me that its not the same thing as 'work towards your salvation'.

Looking at the number 1 definition of 'work out' in d pic and substituting it for work out in the verse, it reads 'achieve your salvation by effort'.

*bored*

I would have loved to explain but after giving you these verses which clearly show that works are necessary for salvation and seeing you dribble around the words scandalously, its clear to me that you are more interested in your ego than finding out the truth.

In this case, what do you expect me to say? Afterall the same scriptures that christians used to discern the Messiah is the same one the Jews used to reject him.

You cannot be playing that 'work for' 'work out' trick and expect me to keep discussing the bible with you seriously.

And if purgatory is not in the bible, bible is not in the bible too. So its no use referring to the bible to prove or disprove anything. Its not scriptural.

@Plappville, I don't undastand d quote ur showing me. What does it mean?

@Claremont, here's d 1st Pope. What are handcuffs compared to this?

You hav seen where the Bible says: "you see then that a man is justified by works, not by faith alone" ad you are still denying it.

Okay deny this one too:

Phillipians 2:12, 13: So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.*
13
For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.

And then this:

Hebrew 12:14: follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

And you could twist the meaning of this verse too:

Romans 2:13: for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

And Matthew 7:21-27

And 1Cor 13:2 & 13.

@Claremont, u talkd abt him issuing a document askn bishops all over the world to put Church above the victims' interests. You have to have proof to make such a categorical statement. It's still an allegation. And if you don't work in the hague, how do you know for sure that this is true, if someone that works in the hague said so, tell us the person.

You also said the Pope will surely be convicted. My brother! I tot you don't work in the hague.

@Plappville, am I God who gave the power to forgive sins to men? See me see trouble. Go and question God na, didn't he know that men would sin before giving them that power?

Don't let your hatred make you unreasonable. Eye wey dey cry go still dey see road na, E no dey go blind.

Poverty is not evil Mr Joagbaje. When I said the apostles were poor, you said they were sacrificed for us.

But St Paul in 2Tim 1:8 said: Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God,

And those sufferings clearly include forsaking everything for Christ - even wealth.

Dat clearly shows that we are to emulate them. They are not mere sacrificial lambs, but role models.

This prosperity gospel is what you know people want to hear so you preach it to them to entice them. You tell dem only to believe and dey'll get to heaven, you tell them their sins won't stop them from heaven and you tell them that suffering is not their portion when Jesus said "take up your cross daily and follow me".

Abt faith and works, pls read James 2:14-26.

Verse 24 says: you see then that a man is justified by works, not by faith alone.

I hope this helps both of us

Bros, purgatory is in d bible. It just isn't spelt out as P-U-R-G-A-T-O-R-Y.

What about 'bible', is it in the bible?

What about holy communion?

What about Trinity?

Would you say these are not in the bible too?

Holy Communion is eating the body of Christ and drinking his blood. It is not a mere commemoration. That's not what Jesus said. And as it is in the old testament, you don't hav the right to offer the lamb in sacrifice if you are not an ordained priest. That is as bad as eating and drinking unworthily

All I see is hatred 4d Catholic Church and this makes me more certain of the faith. Show me proof of all ur allegations!

Note that I'm not saying that the Pope doesn't commit sins or that he's not human. Since u all know he's human y do u expect him to be sinless? And if he has committed crimes, y not let International law take its course?

Does any of you hav proofs of your allegations?

Sori, Easy, I was replying wordtalk

@Joagbaje, yes Jesus was spiritually poor(if you know what that means), hence, he said "blessed are the poor in spirit".

I hope that addresses your position squarely now.

@Wordtalk, u seem 2b getn me wrong. I'm not saying God wants us to be materially poor, I'm saying God is not against it. They're 2 different things.

And pls 1Cor 5:1-5 is saying we should excommunicate the sinner that he might come to repentace and be saved. It doesn't mean in spite of his atrocities, he'll be saved o. Pls compare the punishment to the one in 2Cor 2: 5-11

I see you don't realize that 1Cor 3: 11-15 is talking about heaven and purgatory. However that is another topic.

But for this topic, notice how everyone who was saved had works. Whether they were burned or they stood, they had works. They all did their works on the foundation which is Christ.

Now do you wonder where those who had no works at all are? They are further down in verse 17. That's those who will go to hell. Those who, rather than build, destroyed. "God will destroy them".

*jst wonderin wat Rosary n candles hav to do with black or white Popes*

What manner of reasoning!

Anyway I'm loving this hatred for the Church. It only confirms the faith to be true. I remember all the negative things that were said of Jesus.

@Wordtalk

Firstly you must know that I don't think you are saved just by your works. I believe salvation is by the grace of God but the human response which is FAITH & WORKS are necessary for salvation (faith working through love).

In a nutshell, both faith and works are necessary, not faith alone.

Acts 16:31 shows dat u need to have faith to be saved, but it doesn't show that you only need faith and not works.

It's like a student asking 'what must I do to pass the test?' And a teacher answering 'you hav 2kno everything we've done in class'. Does that mean that writing the exam is not necessary for the student to pass the exam? Of course it is.

Well, to address the main issue @ hand, has any of you clamouring for the Pope's conviction heard his own side of the story? I'm sure the answer is NO. So you have judged already without hearing from him. That shows hatred. Your motivation is not reason, concern for the victims or any other thing but hatred for the Pope.

I'm sure Pope Benedict XVI would willing be hated and killed by you who hated and killed his master.

When Nigerian Christians get excited over these kinds of attempts to discredit the Pope and the Catholic Church, I laugh. I laugh because they are too myopic to see the big picture. They don't see it's the devil's plan against his number one enemy on earth - The Catholic Church. The number one voice against the killing of innocent souls in the womb, against same-sex marriage, the number one voice that stands for the dignity of the human being. The voice of truth.

Anyway, another thing y'all don't see is that even if there comes a time when the Catholic Church is not so politically powerful, and the Pope is convicted, it won't have much effect. Go through our history and see how many Popes have been convicted and Matyred, starting from the very first, And in every age they thought they were doing severe harm to the Church.

How is it that you look and look, yet you do not see?

I'm not saying that God doesn't make us materially rich, but he doesn't always do so. And when he leaves one materially poor, it doesn't mean it's satan's will.

And all these verses you mentioned don't necessarily refer to material wealth. Jesus paid very little attention to material wealth during his ministry. Just look at the miracles Jesus did:

He changed water to wine at the wedding, he healed the sick, he fed the hungry(5000), he made Peter walk on water, he forgave sin, he raised the dead, he prophesied, he freed the possessed, he rose from the dead, BUT HE NEVER MADE ANYONE WEALTHY, though he had the power to do so.

If poverty were evil, Jesus would not have neglected it in his ministry. He dealt with everything evil, he could not have omitted poverty if it were.

@Newmi

Are you trying to say, as far as you believe and accept Jesus, you are saved, regardless of what you do or do not do with your life?

@Joagbaje

I still expect your response. What is Holy Communion to you?

Thanks.

@Joagbaje

So which of the apostles were materially prosperous?

Does it mean that satan had his way in their lives?

Even Jesus himself had nothing, And Christians are supposed to be 'Christ-like'.

Did satan have his way in the life of Christ?

JAMES 2:

18
Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
DO YOU WANT PROOF, YOU IGNORAMUS, THAT FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS USELESS?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”l
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Now do you still insist, you (whatever James called it), that works are unnecessary to justify a man, And that the Catholic Church is wrong?

@5solas

JAMES 2:14: What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

JAMES 2:17: So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Do u still say works are unnecessary to justify a man?

@Martian, sorry once more. Dis time I dey prostrate, And there's no need to bring 'pee pee' into this, is there?

Congrats o! You've won the yabis contest. I give in.

I'm sorry o.

This way, you'll make an 'A' in every exam.

What exactly is 'Holy Communion' to you.

The fact that a man wakes up one morning and says he has a calling to be a pastor doesn't mean he has the calling to be a pastor. Who ordained all these businessmen that call themselves pastors? If you don't have the authority to shepherd God's flock, u simply dnt hav it. It dznt matter how much you pray, fast, how well you speak.

So do not expect them to stand for the truth. Their shops which they call 'churches' are not the one built by Jesus Christ on the rock - Peter 2000yrs ago.