₦airaland Forum

m_nwankwo:
Faith is not believe in what is impossible. It also not a belief without proof. Please can you give me instances where placebo effect has worked and the relevant journal citations for it.

my bad, I meant belief in that which has no evidence(proof). Google is your friend Mon frere.

MC Usman:
Ask any Liberian, Sierra lone and Ivorian the greatest Christian butcher in Africa.

apparently you havent heard of Idi Amin who was mus-lim, anyone is capable of evil things, their religion should not be taken into account.

m_nwankwo:
@JayFK,

I am not sure if you actually take time to read my submissions. This is because you raise the same questions I have already offered answers to. Just as an example, I stated in previous postings that God did not create hell, that hell was a creation of man, yet in your last post you seem to say that I said that God created hell. I am always willing to discuss with people on life issues and questions. However I am not interested in persuading any person to change their belief. Nor I am interested in purely academic exercise.

I read your answers, but you didn't answer my questions definitely. That's cool though, I guess the discussion has evolved into an entirely different issue.

and regarding hell, I dont think man is capable of creating hell, hell is heavenly no? I don't think man is capable of creating a heavenly place, but if we can who is it say we didn't create God?

m_nwankwo:
@JFK

I will not give out the former cancer patient name for that will remain confidential.

]

Fair enough, though I'm sure if the person was healed of Cancer and it was verified, it would make the front page of time magazine.

m_nwankwo:
It is however suprising that you can accept that the body can heal itself and then reject that God exists, and thus reject that God heals. Your last post clearly demonstrates the problem of science. Once science is confronted with happenings which it has no explanation, it uses the very faith it despises by claiming that with future development, those happenings can be explained. Sure, cancer arose out of errors in the DNA which resulted in the de-regulation of the molecular check points. In terminal cancer patients, the cells have completely lost all regulatory control, indeed, they have even transfered such abberant activities to otherwise healthy cells. Yet you appear to suggest that cells that have completely lost controls, whose DNA is riduled with multiple genetic mistakes will spontenously restore the controls and become healthy is astonihing to say the least.

Faith is belief in the impossible without any proof. The body has been known to heal itself, hence the placebo effect.
Also, there was a time on earth where it was thought that diseases were the works of the devil, or when a kid born with Icythiosis was the devils child, science has been able to refute all that and created cures for diseases. On the contrary, I say it takes more faith to believe that God is responsible for healing rather than medical science.

Besides science has a much better track record. What has God done that is completely verifiable, that has blown the human mind? Yet science "heals" sick people everyday, surely this can be described as a miracle?

m_nwankwo:
@JFK

It is analogous to saying that a car without a driver on a steepy hill will suddenly come to a stop in the slope without intervention. Indeed such assumption requires even a greater leap of "faith" than the belief that God intervened.

This analogy doesn't apply here. But nonetheless, we'll agree to disagree? I say in the future, if what you claim is true, science would be able to definitely explain it. Meanwhile you say it is a higher power. Though what you say draws parallels to "incurable diseases" in the middle ages.

"balance of needs"

bluehorizo:
Love is this overwhelming feeling that comes over you. It gives you butterflies and make you want to be with the loved one. Love is when you think of the loved one all the time. You yearn to be with him/her or hear his/her voice when he/she is absent. It makes you long for his/her touch.Love is caring and adorable. Overall, it brings you joy and happiness and life is meaningless without TRUE love.Love is real. ONE LOVE KEEPS US TOGETHER

I dont think I've ever felt that emotion, lol that sounds more like a crush to me and we know definitely that a crush is not the same as Love.

Plus, I'm sure if we checked into it, most of couples that get divorced, could claim that emotion. Does that mean that Love isnt forever?

1. Non Intervention
2. Anti Imperialism/Puppet states
3. I'm all for communal ownership and a classless society however it should not be a one party system like the Soviets.
4. I'm against racism, tribalism, homophobia and I'm all for gender equality
5. Promotions and salaries should be awarded based on merit and education

although It should be kind of a Socialist/capitalist society much like modern China and Sweden

I used to view Venezuela and Cuba as the more advanced countries in South America I mean compare them to the rest of South America. But it seems like Chavez has decided to devote his energies to aggravating the United States

I disagree with your view on abortion though. I feel women should have the right to decide what is best for them, if she's married then it should be the couple's choice.

RichyBlacK:
Good questions.
1. I'm a Nigerian.
2. I hold many socialist views but do not support every single view that has ever been attributed to Socialism.

Now that I've been gentlmanly enough to answer your questions, can you answer mine?

Why do you ask?

Thanks.

1. I ask because not a lot of Nigerians hold socialist views.
2. Curiosity, I hold some socialist views myself so,

Tornadoz:
You can be both. The great Awolowo was a socialist and a Nigerian. Where are you going with this anyway? What has this to do with the topic?

no harm done

Richy I have a couple of questions for you, hope you dont mind? are you Nigerian? are you a socialist?

Do you dig guys who have piercings? maybe one or two?

When it is said to Love someone, what exactly does it mean? I mean sure, I feel a kind of fondness for my siblings and want to take care of them, I also feel attracted to women and all, even have sex with them, but The whole concept of "Love" just eludes me. I personally feel that whether a relationship works or not depends on a balance of needs, basically if the parties to the relationship have their needs satisfied, the relationship would be successful.

Hi again,

Okay lemme start first by listing the properties of "God"
1.God is perfect
2.He is Omniscient
3.Omnipresent
4.All loving therefore he is devoid of simple human emotion. Let me know if I need to modify this list

Therefore he is PERFECTION personified.
Okay so based on this we can accept nothing less than complete perfection from God.
1. He created Humans with the capability to be perfect, but we aren't. Do you agree?
2. He created so called heavenly beings aka angels solely for his worship.
3. He created a heavenly being called Lucifer who eventually went to corrupt.

So with those assumptions stated above, lets assume the whole corruption started with Lucifer and we became corrupted because of him.
1.Why do you think God feels the need to be worshiped?
i. He is God and he is therefore perfect, he does not need praise.
ii maybe He is a narcissist and is starved for attention?

2. In the process of creating beings for his worship or whatever his purpose was, something went wrong along the way, this is a being that is PERFECTION personified and we can therefore expect nothing short of perfection from him. Do you follow my line of reasoning?

3.In my understanding, HELL is a place where people will be forever tortured for their insubordination to God, are you saying that God created the place in response to the corruption of man? or it has always existed? Why does God feel the need to torture his creations forever, doesn't it state somewhere that he is a merciful God? Can't he just simply guarantee their non existence, he is after all "The Lord"

4.I repeat, He is capable of anything or rather Omniscient therefore he must know a solution. After all we are his creations no?

what's is this individual's name? Has a misdiagnosis been ruled out?

Also, let's not forget that cancer is a mutation of cells i.e. errors in dna. So, I see his/her body's ability to heal itself. As the cells simply reverting back to their original configuration, much like broken bones and growth, you know, the division of cells to create new ones? I'm sure in due time science will be able to explain definitely the process by which a body can heal itself. In the mean time we can't just simply attribute the feat to a higher power.

m_nwankwo:
Let us remain with healing. If a person afflicted with cancer is healed by Gods power, the proof of the healing lies in the absence of cancer both at the physiological nad biochemical level. It is at this point that the conceit of science will enter. Some scientists instead of accepting it as a miracle will declare that is "sponteneous remission". Yet until God intervened through the prayer of his servant, the person was dying of terminal cancer and sponteneous remission didnot occur

I dont follow, Do you mean diagnosis of someone with Cancer who was healed without treatment?

mockfu:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (Sagan). It is not that the approach it prejudiced. Scientist approach any claims with skepticism.

Are you saying that the nature of a miracle might change based on the character of the mind of the investigator? How bizarre!

If you were give a claim (say, cure for an illness) by a miracle-worker, would you simple accept it and not have it checked by independent sources?

like he said, show me evidence and I mean concrete evidence verified by independent sources of the dead rising or lame walking. You know , something extraordinary that science cannot explain and maybe my opinions might be swayed

m_nwankwo:
Placebo effect only works where the underlying cause of the problem is psychologically. Where there is a physiological or biochemical problem as in case of cancers, placebo effect is worthless. It is strange that you give the human mind a lot of power and yet seem not to consider that the human mind you are acknowledging is a product of the physical brain.

don't misunderstand me, I never denied the fact that the human mind is a product of the brain. I believe in the existence of a mind even though it is an immaterial substance. I mean no one knew what anti matter was, even though it has existed since the beginning of our universe, Anti matter exists and has been proven to exist even though it is immaterial. The placebo effect could be synonymous with "miracles" I mean we havent actually seen evidence of such outrageous claim such as the dead rising and lame walking. Placebo effect aka miracles can just be small things don't you agree? plus the placebo effect has been known to cure pain such as angina and ulcers and those are physiological.

When Bush and Al gore were running, no one wanted to know about their wives. People want to know about the candidates not about their family members, nothing racial there. Hilary Clinton is a politician who married a politician so there you go

typo there, I'm sorry. "The body reacting to the healing of the mind" is what I mean to say. M.Nwankwo like i was saying, no spiritual or external force acting on the body there, purely within the body.

No one has been able to validate the claim of miracles. Even the so called faith healers like Benny Hinn have been debunked, most of them are currently involved in lawsuits. However the placebo effect has been known for a long time to be responsible for so called "healing" medical professionals occasionally give patients a placebo where the patient reports pain and nothing can be done about it and about 1/3 of the patients report success. I see healing/placebo effect on the body as the mind reacting to the healing of the brain(mind). Like I said the human mind is a powerful thing.

Miracles=Placebo effect, the human mind is a powerful thing

Sky Blue:
There are so many people in Nigerian politics who should not be involved. Even without naming the usual suspects, Ibori had 2 criminal convictions before he got into politics in Nigeria, and yet he was made the serving governor in a Nigerian state for 2 terms.

Yeah, its really unfortunate that common criminals can become governors

.

Sky Blue:
the bottom line is that Nigerians should start holding the nation to higher regards, instead of turning everything tribal. We have been a nation (though a poor imitation of one) for quite a while now, and if we are to advance we should begin to see ourselves as one nation with different tribes, and accept it that way. I am not saying ignore our differences, but instead aknowledge them but also aknowledge nationhood. When we get this sorted then we can begin to look at decentralisation.

yeah I kinda see it that way, but I dont see it happening anytime soon though, at least not till I'm in my 60's or older and Im relatively young. I mean all you have to is look at the Tribalism,Racism and Culture forums and know that a "United Nigeria" or at least our vision of it can't be possible and these are the so called "enlightened" or if you will, Nigeria's future. There's just too many tribes and "traditional enemies" for us to be united. At least this is a compromise

Sky Blue:
@ JayFK, isn't it sad to think that we have to wait for some of these old power hugging politicians to die before we move on? Do you really believe if we keep on just taking things the way they are it will stop after 'these people' die? I remember from a previous thread when someone said we should forget about the results of the election tribunal because Nigeria needs continuity. The sad part of the matter is that there is no continuity in government, or in things that will benefit from continuity. However, nigeria seems to enjoy continuity in corruption. When these people die or leave power, they just hand over to their relatives or associates to continue with the reign of terror. Andy Uba selected his relative to continue, OBJ selected Yaradua, Ibori selected his associate, Adedibu did thesame thing for a senator. The list goes on. So i really don't believe waiting for this people to die and keeping up this nonchalant societal attitude is helping us in anyway. If nigeria is to get back power, it might have to wrestle it from these people because they are not willing to let go.

Very unfortunate and like I said nothing short of a revolution can turn Nigeria around and Nigerians are perfectly happy praying for Nigeria to get better rather than us trying to do something about it. But of course a revolution can not take place with only 1 person, it needs the whole populace. I'm sure if an igbo or yoruba guy leads, the rival tribe would of course, be against it. So to be blunt We're bleeped. Hey but at least we have this forum to discuss ideas right? I'm pretty sure that if someone comes about who can make this happen, a lot of people would be for it.

just curious, since either way its serving the nation right?

nice to meet you who's your favorite artist?

Hugo Chavez is an idiot, he's not thinking about his country's interests. Even though I dont support the U.S in any way, Chavez is just being dumb and is looking for trouble, Im sure he feels confident because the war wont be fought on his soil but we all know the U.S is in the middle of a regime change and might not respond. Funny enough though it could be a tactic, draw the U.S into thousand of little wars, deplete their military a bit and leave them vulnerable at home.

lol they all suck, but if I had to pick one it would be the guy that preceded Obasanjo, Abubakar? He at least did what he promised right? or maybe he was just incapable of leading Nigeria? if he was however it was still smart. A wise man knows his limitations.

IMO it will take nothing short of a revolution, to change the status quo at the moment. Unfortunately I don't see this happening any time soon. Though it could be possible if we can elect a president that transcends tribal lines. The old military leaders are getting old and they'll eventually die

bawomolo:
ijaws own the oil now?? what makes u think nigeria can't create a diversed economy.

I don't think we can diversify our economy at this point, we rely on the oil too much, even though we have other minerals: columbite, coal, tin e.t.c, but hey everything needs to start from somewhere right? though i don't think it will be in this present administration.

Hi again.
I'm more of an agnostic than an atheist, but I tend to lean more towards atheism, that's why I took a shine to your beliefs because they seem more logical than your average. I'm quite open to concept of a god, but I don't think he/she is perfect. You have to understand though, I come from a Christian family, so when people mention "God" I immediately imagine this perfect, omniscient, omnipotent and all loving being which is something dont agree with. In my opinion if a god/heavenly being does exist, he has a lot of flaws like how the Greek and Roman gods of old used to have, he is a god that is susceptible to anger and favoritism, but if he has flaws he/she can't be called "God" now can he? I'm also open to the concept of extra terrestrial life but that's by the way, I hope you follow me up to this point?

so based upon what I believe and what you've described I'll call the being you believe in "God"

1. so, "God" being that he is perfect, why would he feel the need to create angels solely to worship him and do his bidding, if he were perfect he wouldn't feel the need to go that route. Also, God being perfect, and by perfect I mean capable of doing anything he wishes and devoid of emotions such as anger, jealousy and other negative emotions, tries to create humans but instead of creating them to be perfect like him at the go, creates them with freewill so that they might be able to attain perfection. But see where freewill has gotten us? I assume that since he is God and is all knowing, he would have been able to know that the "us" the beings which he created might do some damage.

2. see number 1.

3. if you do believe in hell and heaven. Did God create it, with the intention that he would have to throw away some of his defective creations? if yes he can't exactly be god now can he? What exactly do you need to do, to get into to either of them?

4. Why hasn't he "God" been able to convince the whole world that he indeed exists and loves all of them? I'm sure if he did exist and did contain all the properties to be what humans define as a God He'll be fully capable of it.

looking forward to your input

what do you guys think? lets face it, our current style of government doesnt exactly work, theres too many tribes in Nigeria, tribalism is rampant, people vote for a candidate solely because he is from their ethnic group rather than his intellect, his political stance e.t.c. so this is what I'm proposing or rather this is a dream I have. Nigeria reverts back to the first configuration of states we had(ya know, North, mid west,east,west and so on) and they each be given individual autonomy. There will be a seat of power Abuja, each representative of the autonomous states meets there and the ambassadors, ministers e.t.c. the country will be like the former U.S.S.R. (not literally) but they each had individual republics in it, like the Georgian u.s.s.r, russian u.s.s.r, something like that, comments,critics

Hi again M.Nwankwo
In response,

1. If that's your definition of the original sin I concede.

2. I'd like you to expatiate further. Though I feel you think Christ is the son of God because he was the latest of the bunch.

3. Okay here come my questions
i. God being himself perfect, why did he create imperfect beings?
ii.God being himself all knowing/all loving, why has allowed all the atrocities committed in the world? if you say to prove himself or something along those lines, you have just contradicted your definition of God. I mean won't he have known about all this stuff before hand?
iii Do you believe in the devil and the concept of heaven and hell?
iv. If he is indeed God why hasnt he shown himself explicitly?


Our concept of God is flawed IMO and the opinions of many philosophers(N.B i don't consider myself one so, ). There can be no way that considering all that is happening right now in the world(ya know, the usual: wars, famine, the works) that the definition of God can be anyway applicable to a being, heavenly or not. I feel that us human beings being ourselves imperfect, decided to create our vision of the perfect being i.e. God. Plus the God of the bible and the Great Book sounds like a malignant Narcissist, who throws temper tantrums and chooses a "chosen" people and does things just to prove to his "chosen" people that he is indeed God, no way such a being can exist, and besides there is no evidence, forgive me if I'm interpreting this drivel literally, I feel its just tales kind of like the ones parents tell their kids.


N.B
I just noticed the Qur'an has to be called The great book? why the hell is that?

imhotep:
This is from an earlier post of mine ->

The idea of organs developing incrementally (to adapt to changes in the environment, or whatever) is objectionable, in the form of questions like =>

1) What use is half a wing?
2) What use is half an eye?
3) What use is half a brain?

etc etc

wow I just read this and it doesn't make any sense whatsoever, no offense. Why would an animal adapt to changes in an environment by developing half a brain? maybe increase in brain size or capacity but not development of half a brain. please expatiate.