₦airaland Forum

Yeah, Ignorance is indeed a disease.

imhotep:
Many scientists are puzzled by these questions:

1) Where are the boundaries of the universe?
2) What exists beyond these boundaries?
3) And beyond, ?

Yeah they are puzzled. First you must understand human beings are incapable of imagining what is too small or too big, isnt it possible the universe, just is? Does that mean that it must be God that exists beyond those boundaries? What exists beyond "god"?

Ad Verecundiam
1. A makes claim about B
2 A is something positive
3 Therefore B is true

imhotep:
Yes, he did not believe in a personal God. But he knew something was at work in the universe beyond complicated equations and elaborate theories.

I laugh when I see scientists (most of whom are confounded by Einstein's works) think that they can be better simply be denying the existence of God.

Rejection of God does not necessarily lead to better science.

so your point is, no one is smarter than Einstein? still ad verecundiam mon frere

Imhotep
Einstein was a brilliant man no doubt, but does the fact that he said those things mean it is true?

From Einstein also,

Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941. In it he says:

The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted [italics his], in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot.

“I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings”


"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

Pastor AIO:
That's like saying that one would be better off without a privates. Afterall, consider all the trouble that it has brought your way in life. Dalliances with errant women, staying up all night when you know that you have an early start the next morning. . . etc etc.

Religion is a key part of homo sapiens sapiens. It is one of the things that marks our species apart from the others. Language, Art, the opposing thumb , religion . . . No other creatures have these things.

IF you think you are going to argue religion away good luck. I believe it is hardwired into us. If it was something arbitrary and made up, how come it is so universal. There is no human society that is not religious. There is actually a project being set up at the moment that hopes to find the cause of religiousity in humans. I think it is simply called Explaining Religion. http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10875666


“Explaining Religion”, as the project is known, is the largest-ever scientific study of the subject. It began last September, will run for three years, and involves scholars from 14 universities and a range of disciplines from psychology to economics. And it is merely the latest manifestation of a growing tendency for science to poke its nose into the God business.


Religion cries out for a biological explanation. It is a ubiquitous phenomenon—arguably one of the species markers of Homo sapiens—but a puzzling one. It has none of the obvious benefits of that other marker of humanity, language. Nevertheless, it consumes huge amounts of resources.

This, I believe, is a better means of getting rid of, or establishing, religion than a million rational arguments which in the end are just an exercise in futility.

Privates are necessary for reproduction. What is religion necessary for?
I hope eventually we'll get the biological explanation for religion though

imhotep:
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

-- Albert Einstein

ad verecundiam

interesting

Mosetra:
This issue tire me o!!! The noise gets really annoying when after a terrible week you plan to rest very well and there are atleast 5 churches holding vigils around you! Really frustrating!!! Even though i attend Christ Embassy, I want to say in all objectivity that Pentecostal Churches are more guilty of the sin of noise pollution. It's really sad!!! Something needs to be done by us - and very drastically too!!! The noise pollution to me is bad but what i find very difficult to forgive is all those camp meetings along Lagos-Ibadan expressway christians use in causing serious traffic problems for people who travell along the road when they are unfortunate to travel when these our brethrens are having crusades, congresses or confrences. It has come to a stage that people schedule their journeys before or after these events to avoid travelling for two days for a journey that shouldn't take 6 hours! What beats me most is the fact that some of our pastors judge the success of these programmes by the length of hours people get stuck on the roads due to the number of cars that came for the progs and had to pack on the express way!!!! Can u imagine!!!! The Jesus I know was not and is not like that. Maybe we all have a responsibility of speaking out on behalf of others in our churches!!! They will listen one day!!! Or better still - in solidarity with our offended brethren especially the great ones - make we contribute offering again until they change. Haba!!!!

I have to say though, Anglican and Catholic churches tend to be well built. Pentecostal churches are the ones disturbing the peace, since anybody can just wake up and start one.

Pastor AIO:
And just how do you suppose that we are going to arrive at this homogeneity and empathy. where in africa have you ever seen homogeneity or how do you expect that we will arrive at it?

If we're going to arrive at homogeneity, Intermarriage or secession. I dont see the first one happening anytime soon, so I pick the latter.

huxley:
My greatest regret is that my close African friends and family are trapped in this barbaric belief system. I have brothers who are doctors and engineers but when it comes to scientific understand, they are no different from 10 year old children. They are scared to read anything scientific that might in any way contradict their belief.

This is just weird to me, that people dont actually question their beliefs. You don't have to study quantum theory to see the contradictory elements of the bible and yet you've been taught not to question it because it is absolute. I think its just human nature, the uncertainty of death. I guess people need to know that something awaits them after they die. However a religion that says "Believe in god or die", if you deny the holy spirit or question it at all no forgiveness for you. Like that dude Brian Flemming said "The biggest sin in Christianity is to thinkt".

huxley:
I think the intellectual fabric of any society is at risk if that society founds it guiding precepts on premises that are not rationally defendable. Just see how many people are exploited today by such religious claims in Africa and the world at large. See how the religious are hampering medical and societal development by impeding stem cell research, banning the use of condoms, teaching unscientific dogma etc. The sooner religions is eradicated form the face of the planet, the better the human condition.

The thing that really bothers me is, people like Benny Hinn and the other idiots who make money off people and actually believe that they have powers from "god". Even though their routines are remarkably similar to stage Hypnosis. Give 10 percent of your income to god? Fukc me thats just awful. Banning the use of condoms? executing gays? executing people who have sex? Yeah I think we'd be a lot better off without religion. Man's problems are already enough.

huxley:
I see you express atheistic tendencies. Can explain how you came to this view?

lol full blown atheist here!!

Anyways, I guess I've always been skeptical of the whole thing. I never bought the whole idea that God created the world, I used to be like "the who created God?" I was raised anglican then pentecostal so its been ingrained in me not to ask questions or question "god" which is quite ridiculous. I figured also that "the god of the bible" didn't exist either since the bible has always been contradictory. So you could say I've been slightly agnostic.
Anyways, when I entered Uni, bout 3 years ago I took philosophy class, saw the questions that men have been asking since the dawn of time, saw how the properties of god essentially contradict themselves and I figured well, if god must exist then either he is a narcissist or he doesn't interfere in the affairs of men(deist) now if you keep on asking the questions "who created god" from the deist perspective, it becomes redundant and if God is a narcissist or sociopath he can't be god now can he?
The 2005 Loyola crash, (that was at the end of my first year) my friend lost his brother and sister and I was crushed, these are people Ive known since I was a kid, I was really faced with my own mortality and then I heard someone say "its God's will" and that just pushed me over the edge. I was so depressed I stopped going to school and my grades suffered and the more I started asking myself questions about Africa, how the world works, all the problems in the world I got even more depressed. Then it came to me, we don't need god to explain anything that has happened whatsoever, its man's doing. I came to the conclusion that god is man's creation and there is no evidence for a first course. I've never been happier.

I'm an atheist, secular humanist and socialist and I'm goddamn proud of it.
However concerning Nationalism, I feel Homogenous societies usually do a bit better at least in terms of governance and economy. However this doesn't apply to such "melting pot" countries like the U.S.

huxley:
My wife and her friends are great fans of Nollywood movies although I remain to be convinced.

lol, I sympathise with you I hate Nigerian movies matter of fact I hate movies. I'd rather read the book the movie is based on or watch cartoons. I currently live in Canada, though Id be coming back to start Uni all over again.

hey huxley what part of the country are you from?

ebos:
I didn’t want to contribute anything here but I’m compelled to post because Catholic Church is now mentioned. However, if God could kill biblical Onan for practicing a sex system similar to condom, then who are you to say that Catholic Church and Anambra State have not taken a good decision? Let’s try to see the decision through the eyes of the Creator and stop lacking attention and twisting the main issue because of our desire to justify immorality as you may come up to say now that Catholic Church or Anambra State has taken a decision that depicts backwardness simply because people must have sex whether you ban condom or not – so, what’s the need of banning it?

Please, reflect on an area in your own life where you would like to exercise morality, and build that moral life accordingly. It’s wrong when people try to modify their behavior in pursuit of immorality to the extent of pushing behind what God approves. Whatever the explanation I may give, consistently doing any activity that requires self-control, total abstinence seems to increase your relationship with God and not man and it’s highly associated with success in life.

I repeat, telling people to use condom just because human-beings must have sex is satanic.
So, for those claiming that Catholic Church does not keep the word of God – going with this idea of using condom, who is encouraging immorality? Catholic Church or other denominations? Please answer!

All of us cannot dance the same way - that's my opinion and you have yours.

This is not about what "god" wants. This is not even an issue. Keep religion separate from politics, you have nothing to gain by mixing them. Anambra state is not the freaking Vatican.

If Nigeria were to institute a 2 or 3 child policy to curb population growth would you be in support?

Eziachi:
That's what they are called freedom fighters in Nigeria. Che Guavera eat your heart out.

GOD no, please don't mention Che's name where these idiots are mentioned.

bawomolo:
instead of nigerians just being passive as usual . SUE THE STATE GOVERNMENT.

Lets face it though Nigerians in the south will be all for it lol. I bet the governor and Anambra state indigenes would do jackshit about it too, no protest nothing. Good luck to them getting AIDS, syphillis and all.

I thought Nigeria was a secular country not a christian nation? Do they have the authority to do that? fukcin illiterates

Witness:
go through my post and you would see that I have already answered this your same question of why people are no longer stoned (in this case using ).

like I said read Matthew 5:17-20, this is your own bible.

Witness:
Whether or not you claim he was not an atheist or not is irrelevant, what he decided to do shows what he believed in (which is evolution and survival of the fittest), hence why i decided to use him as an example for you!


Anyway, I have already answered you about the inherent error prevalent in your , variability in morality,

1. Hence why i gave you an example of when someone decides to kill you based on his own relative more values


Eugenics, Evolution, Atheism, Humanism, .etc, call it whatever name you want, (they are still all birds of the same feather under different guises), which simply cannot answer the basic questions about life, origin and purpose. (All you are doing is just going around in circles about why you[b] believe[/b] evolution is true and why the bible is wrong)


1. You decide what is right or wrong
2. When , how and where Atheism , Evolution, Eugenics got his moral standards from , (or did they evolve from nothingness also )


History shows (even the present day degenerate USA) that majority of Christian societal values are in one way or another based or derived from the following absolute moral and living standard:

I guess you have shown your ignorance no? you do not know the definition of the concepts and yet you comment on them.

Witness:
go through my post and you would see that I have already answered this your same question of why people are no longer stoned (in this case using ).

Now you are contradicting yourself about whether or not you believe the bible is an absolute moral standard, (by the way, are you sure you are not Seun in disguise, cus your arguments seem to be similar to Seun's arguments).

Anyway, I have already answered you about the inherent error prevalent in your , variability in morality,

Hence your dogged determination to ensure that the idea of relative morals values is accepted, despite historical evidence to show that both failed or surviving societies have at one time being shaped and based on the absolute moral values obtainable from the bible. Even a few societies that have now turn around to reject the God of the bible, still were at one time or another actually based or founded on christian on Christian/Biblical principles (Hence their source of the reference or standard from which the were even able to obtain their subjective moral relatives from)

I fail to see the contradiction I have made here concerning the bible's claims to being the absolute moral standard. All you have done is set up a straw man argument. What historical evidence pray tell? Which societies that turned around to reject the god of the bible? lmao, you obviously have not read the history of your religion.

Witness:
Anyway that you claim to be former christian is not an excuse for being able to understand that bible (you can live and die with the title of a christian and still go to hell, so that is not really a big deal). In fact your questions and statements show that you actually understand less than you think you know of the bible.

By the way you still have not told me how:

1. You decide what is right or wrong
2. When , how and where Atheism , Evolution, Eugenics got his moral standards from , (or did they evolve from nothingness also )

What true scotsman fallacy now? What is your definition of Christian? Tell me who's the one that does not understand, you who deliberately disregards what is written in your bible even though it clearly states that Christ is the fulfillment of the law? Its a failure of your bible to address its inconsistencies rather than my fault.

1. Like I said before,ingrained behaviour, evolving innate behavior. Man is a social animal.
2. Atheism, Evolution and Eugenics are not synonymous, I suggest you read up on them instead of making fallacious arguments.

Witness:
History shows (even the present day degenerate USA) that majority of Christian societal values are in one way or another based or derived from the following absolute moral and living standard:

The US was founded on secular values, it was not founded on Christian values and I am not Seun.

johnugwu:
all of u that complain of noisy place of worship forget that some of this DJ's use loudspeakers to disturb us with sensual & satanic inspired songs on our street and still no one questions them .
Becareful how u condem the things of GOD

Which DJ's?
So disturbing neighborhood peace is a thing of god?

[/quote][quote author=Witness link=topic=124453.msg2121305#msg2121305 date=1207304069]So you see in answer to the topic itself and contrary to your opinion about , A Christian does not consider moral values to be things that change based on individual or societal opinion.

A christian moral value is completely based on the bible which does not and cannot change.Hence we have and independent Moral standard to use regardless of personal prejudices and preferences.

So in reality a True Christian actually does not pick and choose which bible passages to believe , a Christian belives the whole bible, hence there is a standard unchanging manual for Christian living.

Ive already stated my position above and
Ive been a christian believe me I know what I'm talking about.
I infer from what you've stated, that the Bible is an absolute and I agree with you. That is why I say it is not needed

Why? Morality is innate and constantly evolving. I use the example of homosexuality.
Why do Christians not stone gays anymore even though there are explicit orders concerning this?
I repeat why do Christians not stone gays even though there are explicit instructions in the bible concerning these? I'll leave you to ponder that. If you say that the old testament is "the old covenant" why oh why is it still part of your bible then? But before you answer what does Matthew 5 17-20 say? Where in the bible does it call for the abolishment of stoning? This is stuff that is contained in your bible, I did not define this. Christ never said anything about the fruits of the spirit Paul did.

Other than the obvious contradictions concerning the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment, the subjugation of women, stoning of adulterers, killing of children pregnant women, cattle, stealing of land and the numerous, numerous, numerous atrocities committed in the old testament and endorsed by god.
since the "word of god" is indeed absolute . Why did were these laws twisted for the Israelites?

Hitler was not an atheist. He was Roman Catholic, and I think you might be confusing Eugenics with Evolution.

There is no moral absolute standard, like the bible claims to be. Society over time shapes the definition of what is moral based on our innate sense of morality.

kola oloye:
Here you come again.
Point of correction: BIBLE is not a story book, it is a RECORD book
(an account in writing or the like preserving the memory or knowledge of facts or events.)

Nope this is simply anecdotal evidence. Who wrote the book of numbers? If that scenario did indeed happen, who were the witnesses? For all I know it could simply have been a man hallucinating. How do we know an historical Balaam existed?

If the bible is full of inconsistency, parables, passed down stories, allegory and hearsay, What can it be concluded to be?

Where the objective cannot be accomplished peacefully? Like in the case of a dictator or cabal who refuse to relinquish power? example Mugabe, Baby doc or Abacha? What are your opinions on this? I believe there may be special circumstances where assassination maybe a very necessary tool, don't get me wrong I'm not calling for wanton murder of civilians here.

I believe in revolution, but if those idiots who have plundered Nigeria are calling for it then Bleep them.

Kola oloye
I'm pretty sure that story can be considered hearsay or allegorical?

Pastor AIO:
Having a moral/value system is innate, but just what is contained in that system is arbitrary. Everybody values some things higher than others, some actions higher than others, but just which things lie at the top of the morality scale differs from person to person, and from culture to culture. For instance, in some societies bravery in battle/hunting is highly esteemed as is speaking and acting directly face to face. In other societies Cunning might be higher esteemed than Upfrontery (my word that i've just made up. nice uh?). In yet another society diplomacy may be higher esteemed than the sword while for their neighbours diplomats and people who talk are regarded with derision while the sword is respected.
These various value systems are what give each culture it's characteristics. And to the extent that individuals differ in their values, our various value systems give us our individual characteristics.

Morality is a value system that shapes our character and behaviour. That is all I was trying to say.
This value system that we carry around with us is informed by our environment and yes, accepting the bible as a guide in your life will influence your morals. I'm that Bush feels no qualms about dropping bombs on Iraqi babies, his moral codes supply him with plenty of precedents that say it is okay.

I suspect that you are coming from the school of 'Deep down in Everyone's conscience we know what is Good'. I disagree. If you were raised as an aborigine in Papua New Guinea you would have no qualms about having another human being for dinner. I don't mean as a guest for dinner, but actually having him on the table, salted and peppered. I don't believe in an Absolute Morality that lies within all of us. Morality is relative. Your so called innate moral behaviour is a product of your upbringing and your environment.

By it's very definition it is not something that is achieved. Nor Earned. Nor Won. It's a gratuity.

lol about the aborigines. I believe that "morality" is innate and is constantly molded by the society we live in, for example it might have been considered moral to stone gays in older times but now we simply cannot tolerate such bigotry. Definition of "morality" is constantly changing I guess, but my position remains that the bible is not needed for morality contrary to what many Christians may think.

Anyways, I'm curious about "the grace" you refer to. I dont think I understand what you mean by "grace", What's the purpose? I'm under the impression that you believe in some sort of higher power and grace is needed to come into fellowship with this higher being? am I wrong?

Pastor AIO:
Like someone noted elsewhere, the bible is also very clear that we should kill disobedient children. If we are going to follow that one literally then I don't think any of us will be here today.

lol, its either the bible is meant to be taken literally or not. You cannot have it both ways.

I think I'm misreading you here AIO, what's your religion? Also, I think "morality" as we know it is an innate behaviour, something that we do not need a "holy book" to guide us for, do you understand my point? That's why most Christians do not follow the bible word for word, even though most of them claim that it is "the word of god" which is supposedly perfect. According to you how is this path of grace achieved?

May kelly:
Example is me. I am a leaving proof that the Bible is a True word of God. I don't need to tell how I arrived at my conclusion. Do your own research. We do not force people to believe in our GOD, we are not like those who will kill if you don't believe in god e.g saul change to Paul in the Bible. So I will not denie I know the truth and the Truth shall set me free.

@Pastor AIO, YES BIBLE IS THE PERFECT WORD OF GOD besides all other books; The difference is clear!!!

What a fallacious argument May Kelly. You just proved how ignorant you are, I guess the bible states you should not be able to think for yourself or question your beliefs. Your a con man's wet dream.


The bible is pseudohistory written about stories and hearsay by "prophets", Moses wrote "Genesis"? anyways there might be "some" legitimate history concerning the book of kings and Chronicles but some of those accounts are contradictory. Other parts such as in Samuel, David did not actually kill Goliath, but rather Elhanan did, but of course David was the more famous character so the deed was ascribed to him and another Goliath was created who just happened to be living at the same time, problem solved by just making him his brother. You dont just make up history as you go along.

kola oloye:
@JayFK,
This time around before i would make any other contribution,kindly answer this question_
Which of these do you believe in: FATE, LUCK,or MIRACLE?[/b]and [b]Why?

What does this have to do with god speaking to people?

Blatant:
No one is ever born gay!!!

If a homosexual comes to church to try and change his ways, he should be welcomed. But if a homo comes to the congregation because the teaching accepts that he is allowed to keep practicing his homosexuality, I will NEVER be part of that kind of congregation.

The Bible is clear on God's stand relative to homosexuality so it is either you accept it or you go and form your own gay associations.

Na by force to go to church?

Yeah the Bible is very clear, it states you should kill them.

4Him:
you've obviously not been following our argument either. You claim its invalid why? Because YOU say so? What are you implying?

lol there is no argument.

4Him:
has anyone tried to force it into your history class?

you've obviously not read the whole argument. She claims its valid why? because the bible says so. What does that imply?

May kelly:
PEOPLE WHO TRUSTED IN THE NAME OF GOD THROUGH THIS WISDOM BOOK FOR THE WISE CALLED THE HOLY BIBLY - HAVE GONE THE WORLD, DID THEIR RESEARCH AND CONFESS "THAT THE HOLY BOOK BIBLE IS DIFFERENT FROM OTHER BOOKS WHETHER KORA AWARD BOOK, OR ETC
HOLY BIBLE - GUARANTEED FOR ALL!!!
Now you believe. JayFK i know your shy. but you can confess to me in secret ok.

lol May Kelly, I think you might be on the brink of schizophrenia. Might wanna take it easy on the LSD