₦airaland Forum

Patsey:
I'm currently involved in a research project which investigates the roles and attitudes of the church towards the trans Atlantic slave trade. Trawling through archival materials, I must say I've not only lost my faith, but also my trust in the church and the so-called servants or men of god. Religion is the greatest scam in the world and all religious leaders are world class spammers.

Obviously you never knew God. The church us not an indiviual. You could as well say "where is the church while bribery and corruption is going on in our world today"? Or "where is the church in new York over gay msrriage"

The church responsibility is the gospel . Were there no slaves InThe bible days?

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; .

It is not the church duty to force men into truth.

The bible is clear on the fact that we are to judge not. But there are different use of the word "judge" we have to define exactly what we mean

@enigma

Enigma:
1. When Oyakhilome says "nowhere in the New Testament are we told to obey God", compare that to what Peter said in Acts 5:29 that "We must obey God rather than men! as well as all the other barrage from scripture that are given on this very thread.


2. If you argue that we should not use "obey god" because it sounds like fear ----- what about Jesus? Jesus said He obeyed the Father! Did Jesus obey the Father because of fear? Or did Jesus not make clear that His obedience to the Father was a demonstration of love?

Let us start with Romans 5:19 (misused as ever by Oyaks)
So we see that Jesus too obeyed; He too obeyed God! If Jesus obeyed God, why would his followers worry about using the word "obey" for following God, keeping God's commands or even "doing God's word"? (PS that Jesus has "obeyed" does not mean that Christians do not have any need to "obey" as Oyakhilome suggests falsely ---- it is just that the acts of obedience required of the Christian are not of the same magnitude as the act of obedience of Jesus in His sacrificial death)

You are the one trying to use your skill to confuse us on imple statements . I asked you what are the christian commandments for us to obey? You didn't answer rather you went on and on twisting everything.

Ovamboland:
Pastor Chris Oyakhilome says:

You Are God’s Word!   -   March 23rd, 2010

 

http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/25/chris-oyakhilome-jesus-is-not-gods-word-anymore-you-are/

God save us from these pipu!!!

So where did he say Jesus is not Gods word anymore? You seem to be the one saying so

@ Micuilles

Micuilles:
I discovered that the topic Re: God And Many Of Us Are Fedup With All This Prosperity Garbage Gospel was inspired by Mr. Frosbel's frustration. HE IS A DEEPER LIFER!!! CONFIRMED!!! and the whole world knows what they teach.

I doubt it o. Deeper life church believes in tithing . But Frosbel doesn't.

The issue is what law or commandment are you obeying?

This we are talking about the new testament . The church.

Enigma:
So Oyakhilome was wrong to say that Christians are not told (required?) to obey God, then?

Obey what na. What law ,what command? Is it say in the bible to "obey God" if there is quote it out

And it is not simply about the ten commandments as you suggest; there are so many things that we are taught in the New Testament ---- are we not required to obey them? Let us take just one example: in Matthew 7:12 Jesus said, "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."
Are Christians required to obey Jesus' command in that verse or not?

If a Dog is barking, is it obeying a commandment? It is natural because that's a Dog nature. Lesser list dwell on petty things like this.

The teaching of Jesus is summarise In one thing "Love" and it is beyond a commandment , it is a nature. All we need do is to grow in it. Every other thing falls into place.  If I'm rooted in love , I won't steal or kill. So if I kill the issue is not about the killing , there is a love problem which is the bigger problem. If I love God, I should love people , if I love people I should value them etc.  And  the venoms you guys vomit on other Christians has not reflected that nature , if there's anything you should be concerned about ,it's how to grow in love. That is the peak of christian maturity. James already said if your mouth will not cease to spew evil,  your spirituality is empty.

God does not want to be obeying commandments , he want to live and express his love and his nature through us.
Christianity is not by asking "what would Jesus do" it's rather for you to have Jesus life in you which makes you do right.

We are not trying to obey God to bless us. Besides there is no law for us to obey. Rather we have the nature of God in us that cause us to do his will

@12large1

It is very simple to handle provided you are born again , but if you're not yet born again,that's the first step. By being born again, you have authority over darkness. You can rebuke that evil spirit by the word of of God, it will stop coming.many people pray wrongly about this kind of thing , that's why they have no result there. In cases like this , you don't need to pray to God, God will not do anything. You ought to address the devil responsible directly. The devil only hears command. You should pray in this manner.

"YOU FOUL SPIRIT OF DARKNESS TORMENTING ME , I REBUKE YOU IN THE NSME OF JESUS, , I BELONG TO JESUS CHRIST WITH MY SPIRIT ,SOUL AND BODY. EVERY CONNECTION WITH YOU IS BROKEN BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. I COMMAND YOU OUT OF MY LIFE. GO FROM ME AND RETURN NO MORE IN THE NAME OF JESUS.

If you pray like that, believe it has gone.

Mark 11:24
24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.


One major thing that is required is for you to give yourself to the word of God in reading and study and meditation . You can put a worship tape on at night for the next few days . Just to create right atmosphere .

It

Idehn:
What you are experiencing is a biological not supernatural phenomenon. You are not alone in what you are experiencing as it is something that occurs in humans the world over(even I have experienced it when I was younger). It is a very well documented if not understood. Have a look at this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis.

I don't agree with you here sir. It is a spiritual problem.

nlMediator:
So, let me get it right. 1+1 = 2 in the OT. 1+1 = 2 in the NT. The only difference is the language? That is, you do not obtain anything in this life without effort? You sow to reap in the OT and you sow to reap in the NT. The only difference is that in the NT it already belongs to you but in the OT, it doesn't belong to you. Nevertheless, you get the same results, regardless of your starting point? You still have not shown how the blessings are unconditional. Or put differently, what's the big deal about it being unconditional, if I have to do the same thing to get the same results as the guy whose blessings are conditional?

This is simple. The old testament folks were bkessed o account of their obedience, individually and as a nation. How much they keep the law. We are blessed on the basis of christ obedience. He had obeyed for us. when they sin, they had problem with God.

But we are hid in christ. Either we sin or not we are still blessed , righteousness grant us access into inheritance. When we sin ,God does not withold blessing from us as in the old testament. So our sin problem is not with God. Our sun problem is with Satan,our conscience and our understanding of righteousness or righteousness consciousness.

The problem

livin:
Sorry but i'm a little confused. U said,
Can you now see why you don’t have to try to obey God first for Him to bless you? Someone obeyed God on your behalf, and His Name is Jesus. Through His obedience, God’s gift, His blessing of righteousness, was bequeathed to you.

Nowhere in the New Testament are we told to “obey” God or “obey” the Law. Rather, we are called His obedient children:


and then u said

isn't it possible its either u don't understand what Chris is saying or you didn't do your research properly before uploading the message. You might work for the guy but he's human and very much capable of mistakes. You don't always have to agree with all his teachings and disagreeing doesn't make u any less  a christian or CEC member (which ever u prefer).

Don't mix up the context. The Israelites have to obey God to bless them. Jesus has obeyed on our behalf, we are blessed already . So we are not obeying any law to be blessed. But that doesn't take obedience out of our dictionary.it depend on the context. When the Holy spirit told paul not to go to Asia did paul not obey? . It's a different context. Yieldedness to Gods spirit is obedience to his leasership. But paul himself said " I was not disobedient to that heavenly calling"

nlMediator:
Correct. he didn't clear the confusion. He made it worse.

There is no confusion. You should stop jumping into conclusions. Ask for clarification rather.

And that message, surprise surprise, may not be Nigerian at all. Creflo Dollar preached a series on that years ago.

I dont understand this your competitive statement with American preachers. Anybody can preach anything, there is no copyright. It's in the Word of God. So stop this Nigeria vs America . Reserve that for football.

@YommyUk

Are you able to teach these things in CCC? I really would love to know.

@12large1

It is very simple to handle provided you are born again , but if you're not yet born again,that's the first step. By being born again, you have authority over darkness. You can rebuke that evil spirit by the word of of God, it will stop coming.many people pray wrongly about this kind of thing , that's why they have no result there. In cases like this , you don't need to pray to God, God will not do anything. You ought to address the devil responsible directly. The devil only hears command. You should pray in this manner.

"YOU FOUL SPIRIT OF DARKNESS TORMENTING ME , I REBUKE YOU IN THE NSME OF JESUS, , I BELONG TO JESUS CHRIST WITH MY SPIRIT ,SOUL AND BODY. EVERY CONNECTION WITH YOU IS BROKEN BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. I COMMAND YOU OUT OF MY LIFE. GO FROM ME AND RETURN NO MORE IN THE NAME OF JESUS.

If you pray like that, believe it has gone.

Mark 11:24
24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.


One major thing that is required is for you to give yourself to the word of God in reading and study and meditation . You can put a worship tape on at night for the next few days . Just to create right atmosphere .

It

Idehn:
What you are experiencing is a biological not supernatural phenomenon. You are not alone in what you are experiencing as it is something that occurs in humans the world over(even I have experienced it when I was younger). It is a very well documented if not understood. Have a look at this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis.

I don't agree with you here sir. It is a spiritual problem.

@ogoamka

What a touching testimony.

Zikkyy:
It's not the same thing it was not expressly stated that they should go ahead and give for profit. Paul did not encourage anybody to give to achieve to increase his wealth. Teachings on givings was about doing charitable act not profit.

Paul was encouraging the corinthians to give just as the maccedonians did.

2 Corinthians 9:6-7
But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully,

Nothing is wrong in telling people the benefit of what he wants them to do. He gave instructions here and explained the benefit. Is that kalo kalo?.

Galatians 6:6-7
 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap

@Emigma


^^^

@Joagbaje again
My apology if my impression in the above post is wrong (though I wonder why you deleted the post)

I wonder why you keep jumping into conclusions about me instead of asking question. I deleted something that was mistakingly posted because it was meant for another thread. I didn't open this thread so see what you've been saying.

Anyway, basically from what you've written elsewhere, God's blessing of long life is not included in this "unconditional blessing" that you are talking about!
 
Quote from: Joagbaje on July 02, 2011, 12:32 PM
every act of obedience has it's blessing. For example if you want to live long. It's not by praying for long life. There is a principle to it. "honour your father and mother"

I explained this two posts away. We use the word blessing in generic terms at the level of lesser truth. There is a language for babes , there is a language for the mature. A baby can pray " God bless me " but the mature will rather say"lord I thank you I am blessed already in christ"

What we refer to as blessing in generic term is actually make reference to manifestation of "the blessing" another word is grace . Grace has been given but grace still multiplies, is that confusion? No, I may not go into detail on this because I feel I have cleared issues .

In addition, as I mentioned in my post you have also said giving to pastor etc is what causes a person to prosper ----- so therefore "prosperity" is not really included in this "unconditional blessing" because to get "prosperity" you have to give to a pastor or "sow into a pastor's life"!

I may not repeat myself here because I explained in the others posts I just sent.

@NLmediator

To put it simply and politely, your theology is confusing. Only, yesterday you’re telling us that we have our own side to fulfill to see God’s blessings, such as confession. Today, you say that Jesus paid it all and we don’t have to do anything: that’s just for Old Testament folks. It’s the same thing I see with Paul’s message that all things are ours. You use that as a basis for not asking God for stuff, deriding those that do so as babes in Christ. Yet, you turn around to say that to access those blessings, people need to tithe, sow into the pastor’s life, give first fruits and do other things to activate the requisite grace.

Thank you. But there is no confusion. The blessing of God is like a downloaded software. It can be in a folder on your desktop but that doesn't make it work for you. You will have to run it first. Before you can enjoy the benefit of it.
That's how blessing works. They are ours waiting for us in christ . God has blessed us already. But there are spiritual principles by which these blessings works. The will of God may not always come to pass if we don't do our part .That's where giving, living godly life, obedience, faith etc all come in. God is not blessing us on the bases of righteous living or on the basis of giving. But lack of giving can rob a man of laying hold on what God has given him.  And living in sin can rob a man of walking in his inheritance and Gods full blessing. The hindrance is not on Gods side.

A good example is "health" God has made provision for divine health for us. But when a christian lives in sin, he may be robbed of the divine health. For example a man who does not for give others, or a man who does not walk in love will definitely fall sick. Satan will have his way with him.

That's what God corinthians church members to fall sick and also die.

1 Corinthians 11:30
30 That is why many of you are weak and sick, and some have even died.

1 John 3:14
14 We know that we have passed over out of death into Life by the fact that we love the brethren (our fellow Christians). He who does not love abides (remains, is held and kept continually) in [spiritual] death.

The only thing this message of non-obedience accomplishes is to tell people that they can continue to sin and be blessed. So long as the sin is not the sin of not contributing financially to ministers and the church.

I believe my post above explains these

@Froebel

I've not been able to visit this thread since, I have to start replies from your first post.

Joagbaje, Please show me in the bible where there is mention of unconditional blessings.

Ephesians 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

You see , the blessing of the Christians are in the past, God has blessed us already. He is not trying to bless us.

I am sorry but obedience = blessings while disobedience = curses

It's a lesser truth. But I understand the principle you're trying to communicate . I will come to that later

Zikkyy:
How can eternal life be 'life in the now'

Eternal life is not a life you recieve in heaven, if you don't have it here now, you can never have it.

1 John 5:13
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Zikkyy:
. If [b]the person became born again as a result of participation in the various 'promo' we see on t.v. (like the 'night of bliss' [/b]where miracle is advertise), we know what to expect

You try o, you mean you can talk down on the salvation of a man that way . Pls display some reverence for Gods spirit. Conviction to salvation is the work of the holy spirit. A man can't be born again by promo.

Yes, the bible talked about givers being blessed, but NOBODY preached giving for a return.
i.e.

It's the same thing. If paul is telling them the benefit of giving , what was he inspiring them to do? When Jesus Said ,  " Give and it shall be giving"  what was he encouraging . There is a giving to worship, there is a seed. They are different thing. When you give to worship, you may not have Desiree for a return . You just want to bless God etc. But when you sow a seed , there is only one reason, "HARVEST" if not , it's no seed. Farmers don't put corn in the ground for storage. "The plough in hope." is that not what the bible says

. . he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

The Desiree for a harvest is called "FAITH" you must believe in the power of the seed you have sown

Zikkyy:
To determine a poor person, i used your definition of a prosperous man i.e

I just don't see them walking in the fullness of Gods blessings

Then your judgement is faulty.you don't judge prosperity by Materialism .

The verse above does not say there are blessings that can only be obtained via giving to pastor

I still don't understand this your "ONLY" emphasis. If the Word say to pray, we should pray, if the word say to sow seed to MOG , we do it likewise, let's stop going in circle.

It's unscriptural to 'give' to pastor in anticipation of profit/dividend That's casino gospel

Then you dont understand seed sowing . You sow a seed to have a harvest. If there is a seed then there must be a harvest.Can you explain this scripture.

Galatians 6:6-7
 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap

Is Paul encouraging kalo kalo here?

If its not arithmetic, then you agree there is no benefit/blessings that's can only be obtained from giving to pastor

What do you understand by prophet reward? If you check it out ,it answers the question .

You don come again why monetize 'honour' where did you read Paul say 'honour for parents is primarily talking about giving. Sowing seed to their life'

The Jews have a special giving to patents, some claim they don't need to give seed to parents again, since they have given to God. Jesus rebuked them because they denied thier parents the "honour"

Mark 7:11-13
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Mark 7:11-13 living bible
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

The honour is gift ,value and care that parents deserve, doing this will trigger the grace of long life. Giving to God shouldn't take away the giving to parents. Giving to God should not take away the giving to a pastor. Giving to God should not take away the giving to the poor. Everything has it's place. One giving doesn't. Supplant the other.

Depends on how it's taught. It's wrong to teach casino gospel; i.e. give for profit/dividend

There is no casino gospel, you created it. And by your creation you desecrate the respect or sacredness of spiritual givings that scriptures teaches.

This is what i've been talking about, but you deliberately refused to understand. A pastor don't need to spend hours on the pulpit teaching giving. It's a character expected of a true Christian.

Now you're talking. Giving is a christian lifestyle . But the impression being created here is that givers are mugus.

The problem is that pastors are in a hurry to 'harvest' the congregation

That's the problem . Are you in their heart to determine the motive . A pastor teaches giving, for the sake of the sheep. Not for the sake of the pastor. Didnt Jesus teach on giving? Didn't paul teach on giving? Is it only giving a pastor teach on?. He teaches on righteousness, holy spirit, prayer, evangelism, love, studying scriptures . Etc. Why should it be the giving part that people attack and make it feel as though that's all a pastor teach daily. A minister teaches the whole counsel of God.

Pastors may have been successful attracting people to their church, but they have not been successful with 'soul winning'

Thats not our problem. If the sheep Is not well fed, they will find somewhere esle where their hunger can be satisfied . I was once in a church , hunngry for God ,for soull winning , for teaching, but I wasn't getting enough, God led me to another and my spiritual hunger was satisfied . That doesn't mean the other church was wrong, it's just that what was being taught couldn't satisfy my deep hunger. So every church has it's crowd. We should all find our places.

I believe it because you are not in a position to see events like this When the sermon is all about the numerous benefits to be derived from sowing to a prophet, the congregation interprets that as an invitation to 'dash' pastor money.

Ive not seen such church , maybe it's my ignorance. Anything can happen.

What i read you say here is that one can receive his prosperity through another man; the pastor We don't even need God for this, there is a shortcut So a pastor can pronounce prosperity on anybody, just like that I wonder why they have been withholding it. Why don't they just pronounce prosperity on the congregation once and for all  the government will not have to worry bout the issue of unemployment

Labour without the blessing of God is vanity. There are individuals who walk under a curse, they always labour in vain. Some. Are into hard life, people always turn against them. Some other lack the idea required to move them forward, wisdom is not working in them. When a minister break such things from them . Doors are open . The grace of God is unlocked . Their efforts can be crowned with success . Prayer doesn't take the place of work. If people can so juju to have money. The anointing of God can do much more. Success of a christian should be by the blessing. We should boast in our labour.

Deuteronomy 8:17-18
17 (lest). . thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth. 18 But thou shalt remember the Lord thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth,

@kossy04
Who taught yu all these juju?
Your only solution is the salvation of your soul. You can reach me through my mail below. I will give you a call . If you're really serious. I can assure you it's a small matter to deal with.

Pls explain which scripture I twisted

ogajim:
I don't know if Jo has eve come across this passage :

1 Timothy 5:8
King James Version (KJV)
8But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Can you explain the relevance of the scripture you quoted pls? I don't understand .

You need to stop twisting the Scriptures for the filthy lucre my man, "what shall it profit a man if he gains the whole World and lose his own soul"?

Pls explain the scriptures I twisted.

Zikkyy:
Damn this na new one the gospel according to Jo

1 Timothy 6:17-19
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; 18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; 19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Eternal life is a quality of life.It is not longevity. It is not a life in heaven , it is a life in the now which we have recieved. And laying hold on it is to partake of it's benefit by having abilities unlocked in you. A life beyond limitations .  A life by revelation and knowledge of truth.

Zikkyy:
Can we say the man that don't give is truly a christian?

If he is born again, Of course he is a christian. Being born again is not an end . It's a beginning. He has to grow up. And reign over the flesh , Covetousness is part of the works of the flesh to deal with. If the love of God is in your heart you will recognise that you're blessed to be a blessing to others.

And you are of the view dangly the 'multiple returns carrot' in their face is the best approach to teaching christians how to love

Don't misquote me . The promise of return upon giving ,is it scriptural? Did God say so? Is God dangling carrots. A minister only announce what the word says. And a real minister himself is the number one giver. Because he believes in it and he does it.

Zikkyy:
How many? when compared to the general populations of givers? If such (prosperity related) testomonies abound as you say, how come the poor still outnumber the so called 'prosperous' in most churches (100% in every church i have visited)

how can you conclude in one vidit to a church?How do you determine a poor person? I have seen a man on TShirt and jeans giving millions. You won't know from looking at him.

I asked if there are blessings specific to sowing unto the pastor.

The scriptures speaks for themselves .

Galatians 6:6-7
Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Philippians 4:10-11
But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity. 11 Not that I speak in respect of want. . . 17.Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.

I have seen testimony of somebody getting a job due to sowing activities and i have seen testimony of another person getting a job due to simple act of praying

Everything has it's place. The point is, that it is not unscriptural to sow to ministers as it is portrayed here.

These different kinds of giving, kindly tell us the different kind of returns associated with them. So we know how to maximise our returns. for exmple; if i want to be President of Nigeria, what type of giving should i undertake,

It's not arithmetic. We give by the wisdom of God. That's another ball game. A woman who desires the fruit of the womb. May be led of God to sponsor another persons child in school and by that deed, she gets pregnant. Another woman may be prayed for by a pastor and she gets pregnant. So it's not mathematics.

buying myself a prado e.t.c if you are unable to provide answers to questions like this, then i see no justification for cataegorizing givings according to potential benefits it does not make sense to anybody if the potential benefits only exist in the head of the pastor.

Ephesians 6:2-3
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise 3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

How come paul didn't say . "Pray for long life that you may live long" and this honour for parents is primarily talking about giving. Sowing seed to their life.

Not giving, it's welfare (apologies for editing your post ). It's was about meeting a need. Remember the desciples were told to go out with nothing. It's not about giving to a rich pastor, or a pastor with private jet. Jesus did not prech giving to rich pastors.

Remember what paul said . He said he was happy that they gave to him and that his reason for the happiness was not because of a need but rather because of the blessing they should recieve.

Philippians 4:10-11
But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity. 11 Not that I speak in respect of want. . . 17.Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.

Nna, i never said he was my guy I think he is more likely to be your guy

This is not fair you know i am not against giving to pastors i (

Okay , deal. That side settled.

am against pastors preachings on giving, is it that difficult to understand :

One of the hardest thing most ministers face is telling brethren to come and give to them. Even though it is scriptural ,most ministers in observe don't quote that scripture so as not to be misunderstood . But they teach on giving to God, giving to church project ,giving for the gospel, giving to the poor. Giving to your parents etc. It is not wrong for a minister to teach about giving. Giving is our life as christian. But I find it hard to hear a preacher say "come and give me money or sow into my life" I'm not saying it may not happen but I havent seen . Mostly a visiting pastor can be bold enough to teach such things by telling brethren to sow into the life of their pastor .

I will say when we give out of love for our neighbour (which includes giving to pastor), we are blessed

I agree

If by faith you mean antipated returns, i still believe it is wrong. We are told to give cos such acts aligns with the commandment to love our neighbour, we are told such acts confers reward on the giver, and it's simply because you will be adhering to the commandment of loving your neighbour.

But the ground you sow also differs. A man of God carries and anointing , which can prosper a man. By the pronouncement of his mouth.

2 Corinthians 6:10
(we). . . as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

There is preference, giving to an a believer and an unbeliever is not the same result . Giving to family relation and a christian is not the same result. Also giving to a brother and giving to a minister is not the same result. And pls don't ask me the different results. Because it is not maths.

I dont know how facual the story is. I dont put my heart into all i see on the net , especially the exaggeration that he sold his members!

The RCCG men led by their provincial pastor came during a Sunday service to inspect the properties and [b]assess the church members whom he had negotiated [/b]with the RCCG

That's Impossible and doesn't make sense . It's simply an exaggeration. A pastor may sell church property or sow the properties as a seed if he is led . A pastor may be called by God to relocate to another place for any reason. But if a pastor is led in such cases , he ought to have carried the congregation along with the idea . In all this,the congregation have their own will. Some pastors have been led to go an submit themselves to another ministry. He shares such vision with the congregation.And those who want to follow still follow and those who don't feel so go somewhere else. But if he feels he had been called into another work , he alone can just take a walk away and hand over the leadership to any of the pastors under him. He ought to give the church his reasons.

@ jaygiant

jaygiant:
While I am not an advocate of ascetic or austere faith as a prerequisite for serving God, I do not think that the church is the appropriate place to talk about money making either. If I wanted to hear that, I know the appropriate seminars and symposiums to attend.

The church is the ground and pillar of truth. The church is suposed to teach the whole counsel of God. And money and its handling is inclusive. Anything that is taught in the bible should be taught in the church. That is a balance church. Business ,attitude,character,family. All these things are addressed in the bible and by the apostles .

It seems to me that what we are in effect promoting is that profit and gain is the only incentive to follow the way of God. Thus, the stickers and banners continue to read “MY YEAR OF FINANCIAL FULFILMENT” “MY YEAR OF UNCOMMON FAVOUR” “THE GOD OF WEALTH AND ABUNDANCE’. Christ and Christianity have become a fast selling blue chip company in the religion stock exchange which a believer must buy into and watch his stock soar.

I am not aware a church will have for a year such slogan as  "MY YEAR OF FINANCIAL FULFILMENT"  but "MY YEAR OF UNCOMMON FAVOUR”.   Is possible , favour is a general thing, favour is a grace.

The believer pays his offerings and tithes, not because it is an obligation, duty or requirement of his faith but because he is expecting a double blessing or miracle for the ‘gift of giving’ that he has displayed. Therefore, the bible verses “give and it will come back to you, ” and “my lord will supply all your needs…” have become hackneyed offering time chants and rotes.

That has to do with an individual . Not the church. I give my tithe in appreciation and worship. Everyone speaks for himself. Of course some ministers may not be so sound in teaching on some topics based on their own level of understanding. It is not in financial matters alone.  Even in dealing with sin and other issues. Some people will teach "IF YOU COMMIT SIN,YOU HAVE LOST YOUR SALVATION"  "where is sister Agnes "? she has stop coming to church, she  has backlided ,she has perished"

From the foregoing, some will be quick to conclude that a conservative prig who is averse to change is just reeling off and spewing out his poison against new ways and trends. Yes, I am a conservative, this I do not deny, but I am a liberal conservative. One who believes that change should be measured:

I don't know what you mean by conservative, it is relative. The world is changing . We have to change obas to make impact in an ever changing world. The future is mobile  Internet and technology.

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wetu:
Is it wrong to give to your pastor?

It depends who the pastor is and how much he has already. giving to the rich is like robbing the poor:

Pro 22:16  He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want.

Was Elijah oppressing the poor when he asked the widow for her last meal,despite the fact that he had been eating babercued meat which this woman wasn't able to afford. He made her do the scriptural principle.

Giving to a minister doesn't have to be because of lack. It's because of the anointing upon him . That's what cause men to prosper. We can see the principle in the old testament.

Numbers 18:8
And the Lord spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them. by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever

Why would Isaac ask his son to bring him venison before he would bless him? It is based on spiritual principles.