₦airaland Forum

Evangkatsoulis:
Are you saying wikipedia is not good reference? It puts its references at the bottom of the page.

I am saying peer-reviewed educational sources are better sources.

I write academic papers for a living and Wikipedia is never a source that is taken seriously or should ever appear in your academic paper. It is an open source book, can be edited by anyone anytime.

provide for me one peer reviewed article where Wikipedia encyclopedia article is cited. I will wait

tintingz:
Does Wikipedia attach reference to their articles or not?

Gender dysphoria is no longer consider mental disorder, take it or leave it bro.

And my argument have always maintained that the declassification of gender dysphoria as mental disorder is politically motivated not scientific.

Political trend is eroding scientific positions in many aspect of human life. Like Donald Trump denying climate change, you thinking sex can be assigned (which i think is more absurd than the former)

I can provide peer reviewed articles that shows Professionals (physicians and scientists) being black listed and losing their jobs because their position contradict the political position (Liberal political correction in a bid develop a victim's culture)

CAPSLOCKED:

SIR,

IF YOU EVER FIND A MAN WHO BELIEVES HE'LL BE MORE COMFORTABLE IN THE BODY OF A DOG, PLEASE ALLOW HIM DO WHATEVER HE WANTS WITH HIS OWN BODY, AS AN ADULT CAPABLE OF BEARING THE CONSEQUENCES OF HIS OWN ACTIONS, ESPECIALLY IF HIS DECISION WILL NOT IN ANY WAY AFFECT YOU, ANOTHER MAN, OR THE ENVIRONMENT.

THANKS.

Sir i am not saying it shouldn't be allowed, that is a different argument. I am saying that it should be objectively classified as what it is which is a mental disorder.

I'll like to believe you are one of those who likes to believe you are objective in coincide with scientific position and logical deductions. This is one of those times.

Moreover, you think people who believe in talking snakes are deluded (this doesn't mean you don't allow them to believe what they want) Simply apply same objective logic here.

Do you suddenly lose your reason and logic all of a sudden? Do you suddenly pay a blind eyes to straight up delusion to suit your liberal narrative?

It is not about allowing or not, it is about a factual right or wrong.

When someone says, Balaam's donkey talked. You always disagreed, because donkey's talking is factually incorrect.

When a male says i am female. it is also factually incorrect but somehow you lose your zeal to call-out a similar delusion as the above? This is straight up hypocritical and a very weak argument.

Saying a spade is a spade doesn't mean you should not use a spade.

The rhetoric you have up there is cliche, boring and non sequitur to the premise raised (useless to the argumentative premise).

festwiz:
I have nothing against trans folks. They have as much rights as you and I. What they've decided to do with their body et gender should not be a topic of discussion IMO.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_Sahhara

Sex is unalterable, misidentify is factually wrong thus an anomaly.

You have the right to do whatever you want to do with your body, nobody stops mad people from assuming what they assume.

The point is, call it what it is.

tintingz:
Not only Wikipedia source oga.

Study found it's biological, I'm not scientists but my claims are simply base on studies.

That sex is assigned?

Lmoa

[i]Gender development is complex and there are many possible variations that cause a mismatch between a person’s biological sex and their gender identity, making the exact cause of gender dysphoria unclear.

Give one behavioral instance of a man behaving like woman..

Occasionally, the hormones that trigger the development of biological sex may not work properly on the brain, reproductive organs and genitals, causing differences between them. This may be caused by:

- additional hormones in the mother’s system – possibly as a result of taking medication.

- the foetus’ insensitivity to the hormones, known as androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) – when this happens, gender dysphoria may be caused by hormones not working properly in the womb

congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH) – where a high level of male hormones are produced in a female foetus. This causes the genitals to become more male in appearance and, in some cases, the baby may be thought to be biologically male when she is born.

Tomboys and effeminate men, that's the result of this.

I'm not a scientist, I'm simply saying what studies provided.

And studies suggests that sex is assigned at birth?

Stop with the Wikipedia nonsense already

tintingz:
Is this not the same Dr. McHugh a Catholic that defend abusive priests that sexually abuse children?

So?

How does this invalidate his assertion?

tintingz:
Ok

Ok

Again, transgender is a different case here,

LOL. No its not.

Its a case of identity that is not factually correct.

The causes of transsexualism have been studied for decades.
The most studied factors are biological.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality

Another Wikipedia source that uses the phrase "Assigned sex" this is a political phrase not scientific. Sex is not assigned by anyone, chromosomes are responsible for it at conception.

Jesus I can't believe I'm arguing this with a person.

Gender dysphoria itself is not a mental disorder, it's the distress that comes with it, the reason it's term mental disorder, WHO that declared it mental disorder in the past has withdraw it as to make trans people feel no stigmatized and distressed.

Over the past several years, a range of civil society organizations as well as the governments of several Member States and the European Union Parliament have urged the WHO to remove categories related to transgender identity from its classification of mental disorders in the ICD‐1151, 52, 53.

One impetus for this advocacy has been an objection to the stigmatization that accompanies the designation of any condition as a mental disorder in many cultures and countries. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5032510

Misidentity is a delusion. Let me assume someone is born that way, people are born mentally unbalanced are still classified as mentally unbalanced

The American Psychiatric Association, publisher of the DSM-5, states that "gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria

Pheeew another Wikipedia

Yeap
So when it comes to the gene, brain structure it is?

Aberrational still.

There is this thing called browser Cookies. This stored data is mostly the reason why someone would appear online even when they are offline, or someone may appear to be viewing a thread on nairaland even when they have already left the said thread.
This time counter also comprises of browser cookies which augments the time counted as spent online but actually user spends far less time online than indicated.

tintingz:
Transgender is beyond identity, it also has biological causes, I've provided like four sources.

Jesus christ, Wikipedia sources. Amazing.

This is more like the use of words, I'm not a scientist, those who are in clinical field should explain this,

Sex cannot be changed. Physical alterations do not edit chromosomes/genes which in fact determine sex.

It is just like Michael Jackson bleaching himself and using cosmetic surgery to appear caucasian. Race just like sex is also biological and cannot be cosmetically eroded. At the end of the day, Michael jackson is still a negro.

Identification and cosmetics do not influence biological composition.

Sex assignment (sometimes known as gender assignment) is the determination of an infant's sex at birth. In the majority of births, a relative, midwife, nurse or physician inspects the Instruments when the baby is delivered, and sex and gender are assigned, without the expectation of ambiguity. Assignment may also be done prior to birth through prenatal sex discernment.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_assignment

The sun rises from the east.

So also biological.

I have a feeling that you have no idea what biological means because all you have been throwing out is sex assignment at birth which is laughable. You keep throwing the word biology without reference to sexual biology (chromosomal exchanges) Well, you probably don't understand the term biological.

Ok, I'm very sure those site cannot make such wrong statement.

Oh Jeez

Again sir, Gender dysphoria is beyond identity problem according to study.

ok

tintingz:
Take the child to a psychologist if he/she persist in saying such.

Actually they make progress with the help of psychotherapy.

You must first understand that identity is psychological and once it is factually incorrect, it is delusion.

I don't want the situation where my child is down with depression.

I'd rather seek help that solves the problem with the variable of causality fully in consideration.

Study suggest it's psychological, biological, maybe you should provide source where it says no biological causes.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality

Like i said, apart from Intersex, sexual identity contradictions are psychological and have a social and mental causality.

You don't even understand the point. Identity and biology are not the same but once they contradict, delusion is in full effect.

A black identifying as caucasian is not biological, it is strictly mental.

Lycanthropy is more like when someone feel like he's turning to an animal or has turn to an animal, this is consider a psychosis by scientists, there is no much study on it as it is a very rare case.

alternate animal with gender and you will get the picture.

As for transgender, it's also consider a mental disorder until recently WHO declared it's no longer a mental disorder, it's has been very well studied and most studies are Biological.

Over the past several years, a range of civil society organizations as well as the governments of several Member States and the European Union Parliament have urged the WHO to remove categories related to transgender identity from its classification of mental disorders in the ICD‐1151, 52, 53.

One impetus for this advocacy has been an objection to the stigmatization that accompanies the designation of any condition as a mental disorder in many cultures and countries. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5032510/

Peered reviewed article from the from the The National Center for Biotechnology Information advances science and health by providing access to biomedical and genomic information.

The omission is a politically influenced act not a scientific one. Non-factual identity is still mental disorder in science, your reference is influenced by modern political motives. Get your facts right, the advocacy is from government and civil society organization which is aimed at combating stigma.

This is purely a political move.

These are different cases!

Does it make a difference?

Kindly provide source where it says transgender has no biological causes/influence.

You have not quoted one that proposed such. Your sex assignment at birth i have shown to be grossly incorrect and consonant to science.

Your basic biology is source enough: seems like you have not been reading all i have been saying here.

Sex is strictly a chromosomal business at conception and is stamped on every cell in the body. It is either your are XY (male) or XX (female) there are conditions like XYX (intersex) which is a development disorder just like growing an extra limb.

Identity on the other hand is psychologically stimulated and can coincide with fact or not.

If a tall guy says i am short, it is not biological, it is mental.

if a male says i am female, it is also mental.

And by virtue of consonance to the fact, it is a mental delusion.

HajimeSaito:
(CNSNews.com) -- Dr. Paul R. McHugh, the former psychiatrist-in-chief for Johns Hopkins Hospital and its current Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry, said that transgenderism is a “mental disorder” that merits treatment, that sex change is “biologically impossible,” and that people who promote sexual reassignment surgery are collaborating with and promoting a mental disorder.

Dr. McHugh, the author of six books and at least 125 peer-reviewed medical articles, made his remarks in a recent commentary in the Wall Street Journal, where he explained that transgender surgery is not the solution for people who suffer a “disorder of ‘assumption’” – the notion that their maleness or femaleness is different than what nature assigned to them biologically.

He also reported on a new study showing that the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people. Dr. McHugh further noted studies from Vanderbilt University and London’s Portman Clinic of children who had expressed transgender feelings but for whom, over time, 70%-80% “spontaneously lost those feelings.”



While liberal politicians, Hollywood, and major media such as Time magazine promote transgenderism as normal, said Dr. McHugh, these “policy makers and the media are doing no favors either to the public or the transgendered by treating their confusions as a right in need of defending rather than as a mental disorder that deserves understanding, treatment and prevention.”

“This intensely felt sense of being transgendered constitutes a mental disorder in two respects. The first is that the idea of sex misalignment is simply mistaken – it does not correspond with physical reality. The second is that it can lead to grim psychological outcomes.”

The transgendered person’s disorder, said Dr. McHugh, is in the person’s “assumption” that they are different than the physical reality of their body, their maleness or femaleness, as assigned by nature. It is a disorder similar to a “dangerously thin” person suffering anorexia who looks in the mirror and thinks they are “overweight,” said McHugh.

This assumption, that one’s gender is only in the mind regardless of anatomical reality, has led some transgendered people to push for social acceptance and affirmation of their own subjective “personal truth,” said Dr. McHugh. As a result, some states – California, New Jersey, and Massachusetts – have passed laws barring psychiatrists, “even with parental permission, from striving to restore natural gender feelings to a transgender minor,” he said.

The pro-transgender advocates do not want to know, said McHugh, that studies show between 70% and 80% of children who express transgender feelings “spontaneously lose those feelings” over time. Also, for those who had sexual reassignment surgery, most said they were “satisfied” with the operation “but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn’t have the surgery.”

“And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a ‘satisfied’ but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs,” said Dr. McHugh.

The former Johns Hopkins chief of psychiatry also warned against enabling or encouraging certain subgroups of the transgendered, such as young people “susceptible to suggestion from ‘everything is normal’ sex education,” and the schools’ “diversity counselors” who, like “cult leaders,” may “encourage these young people to distance themselves from their families and offer advice on rebutting arguments against having transgender surgery.”

Dr. McHugh also reported that there are “misguided doctors” who, working with very young children who seem to imitate the opposite sex, will administer “puberty-delaying hormones to render later sex-change surgeries less onerous – even though the drugs stunt the children’s growth and risk causing sterility.”

Such action comes “close to child abuse,” said Dr. McHugh, given that close to 80% of those kids will “abandon their confusion and grow naturally into adult life if untreated ….”

“’Sex change’ is biologically impossible,” said McHugh. “People who undergo sex-reassignment surgery do not change from men to women or vice versa. Rather, they become feminized men or masculinized women. Claiming that this is civil-rights matter and encouraging surgical intervention is in reality to collaborate with and promote a mental disorder.”

ns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change

Exactly but somehow the world has moved to the point of normalizing it which to me betrays a social conditioning agenda. The media and celebrities propaganda condition the people on what they want them to believe which most often contradicts scientific findings.

Biological sex is not assigned by anyone, it is sorely a biological process at cell level.

identity on the other is mental and its either factually correct or not.

i am 6'9ft tall, if i wake up one morning and start saying that i am a dwarf because i feel short, this does not change my height rather it questions my mental condition.

My identity as a short person is factually incorrect since it contradicts my physical appearance.

if you wake up one morning and say, i don't want to be male anymore, i feel like female. Your identity as a female is factually incorrect since it contradicts your biological make-up.

You have a mental delusion just like me saying i am a dwarf, it deserves psychological help.

tintingz:
Psychological, biological these are still suggestions.

Identity is psychological sir.

Here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_assignment

I'm not a scientist wether sex is assign at birth or not is not the case here, this does not negate the study and condition of gender dysphoria.

Again, sex is not assigned at birth, sex is biologically determined by the chromosomes.

You may say that there are people having these issues of gender identity disorder and that is true but suggesting sex is assigned at birth is very wrong and a direct opposite of the scientific position.

if you base your argument on the premise of "assigned sex" then i'm sorry your argument is inherently flawed.

Gender dysphoria occurs when there is a persistent sense of mismatch between one’s experienced gender and assigned gender.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/conditions/gender-dysphoria

Which is in fact an identity problem thus psychological.

Biological sex is assigned at birth, depending on the appearance of the genitals. Gender identity is the gender that a person "identifies" with or feels themselves to be.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

Genitals do not appear at birth, that statement is an oversimplification as saying the sun rises from the east. factually it is wrong.

Sex is not assigned at birth, sex is determined at conception.

Gender dysphoria involves a conflict between a person's physical or assigned gender and the gender with which he/she/they identify.
https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

Hence an identity problem not a sexual one

tintingz:
Lol funny. I don't really know about the condition of humans having strong feelings of not being a human.

What would you say in such a case?

But the one for transgender is a real condition, gender dysphoria is said to be biological,

This statement is incorrect

Apart from Intersex which is in fact a sex development disorder. transgender condition is not biological but mental.

Sex is biological, identity is psychological.

62% heritage with genetic influence,

identity alterations are more likely social and mentally caused.

most people with this condition face depression because of how the society neglect them, I know some are just faking it probably to create attention.

ok

I used to be disgusted by transgenders and have this hate feeling towards them,

I don't. I only understand the social conditioning going on. it is not normal for anyone to wake up and says he identifies as a dog which in fact is a thing lycanthropy.

if we classify this as a mental delusion, how come no one classifies waking up one morning and deciding you are no longer a man but a woman same?

Think about that?

it was around two years ago I came across a transgender(female to male) video on Facebook, every hate feelings I've for transgenders fade off that moment, I heard about gender dysphoria, did research on it and the surprising things was most comments (probably Americans) applaud her courage.

Applauded her courage, would they applaud the courage of a lycanthropy or would they agree he/she is mentally deluded?

Sex is strictly biological and not a matter of identity.

identity however is mental and can either be wrong or right.

However we diagnose every factually wrong identity as a psychological anomaly, all except the transgender identity. If this is not a gross (cherrypicked) normalization of an obvious problem then i don't think there is such a thing as mental delusion at all.

CAPSLOCKED:

JUST THOUGHT I SHOULD LEAVE THIS HERE.

I'd argue that she already is psychologically imbalance which is a leading causality to her transgender venture (his more so).

Sex is not a matter of choice, it is determined at conception just like every other feature in your body. Human sex is strictly biological and is printed in every cell that makes a human, there at least 6,500 genetic difference between men and women. so it cannot be cosmetically altered or changed, no matter what you do, mutilate, cosmetic surgery, once you are a biological male, you are a biological male.

identity on the other is mental, psychological. Who we are is in fact a projection of our thought and feelings which in fact can be factually right or wrong.

if you walk into a hospital now and say to the doctor, "I am Michael Jackson" and insist you are in fact the Michael jackson not Capslock anymore (I used capslock due to the absence of actual name) His diagnosis would be that you are delusional and an anti-psychotic prescription would be on your note.

But then you walk in and tell your doctor, I am a woman and not a man. He'd say "meh, you a transgender" if this is not just as much delusion as the former example then the problem is apparent.

Think about this.

budaatum:
I'd heard of it but thanks for the education.

So, I'm in Nigeria. Ma and pa are struggling to pay school fees for my siblings and I. Then one day I tell ma that I was born with a dog, but I should have had a kitten.

Ma looks at me. Says gently, "that's easily rectified. Show me your dog" .

I pull down my trousers and she grabs a knife off the kitchen table.

That's the point I run out the kitchen. "Come back son", ma calls. "I'd be much gentler than your pa". And I knew she would!

Personally, I think it's a condition called "too much money, not enough sense". By the time pa's done with me, I'd wish I was dead!

LMAO..

too much money, not enough sense.. This one killed me

JeromeBlack:
I believe that full grown adults have the right to do what they want to do with their bodies.

I know right. But there are scenarios they are not allowed to. Need examples?

there are similar cases where psychological problems are diagnosed instead of this cliche rhetoric

However, children and teens should never be encouraged for such surgeries. They should wait till they are older.

Well the point is, there is a problem, a causality that must be corrected.

tintingz:
OP have you heard of gender dysphoria?

Most transgenders are having this condition, I don't really fault those that decide to change gender. And the fact that its not being treated as such is depressing to reason.

- Causes: Biological (as suggested).

The cause is more likely psychological in the case of individuals.

- Treatment: psychotherapy, hormone therapy, surgery etc.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria

I opened the link and the first statement was "Gender dysphoria (GD), or gender identity disorder (GID), is the distress a person experiences as a result of the sex and gender they were assigned at birth"

This statement is scientifically incorrect and is no less than extreme left absurdity being peddled in stiff consonance or manipulation of scientific data.

Why the statement is wrong:

Sex is not assigned to anyone at birth, human sex is determined right during conception once the cells fuse to form a zygote.

That article started off a wrong premise and just tell me how correct can it get when the fundamental premise is incorrect?

Ytea:
Boy: I feel there's a girl hidden in me, I need to get her out and be myself. Chai, the person that first thought of this thing is a bad person, the whole idea sucks. So a guy can travel for two years now, and come back to meet his girlfriend forming Mr Macho.

LOL

This scenario is weird i agree.

Today, you can walk into a clinic and surgically have your appearance or sexual make-up changed to whatever you want it to be.

This is an almost normalized aspect of the 21st century world and have generated mixed feelings and different sides of argument for or against that idea both from a religious, moral, psychological or scientific point of view.

Let us debate on this trend.

What do you think of the transgender argument?

N.B: I happen to think its absurd and a gross glorification of insanity.

We can challenge each others views.

budaatum:
John 1

Let There Be Enlightenment!

The chapter begins by stating the importance of the word. At the time, the written word itself was deemed of great importance amongst the Jews, to whom this was most relevant. It was even deemed holy amongst some and not meant for those who were considered unholy so this would have been like Prometheus who defies the gods by stealing fire and giving it to humanity thereby enabling progress and civilization.

"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us".

Behold, the Tree of Life!




A correction was necessary in light of conversation with MuttleyLaff. See posts below. I had previously written,
[s]Behold, the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil![/s]

It would interest you to know that the word translated to " Word" in that chapter is the Greek word "logos" which in actuality means "Knowledge"

Thus changes the very meaning that chapter is taught to have in conventional christian religion

HappyPagan:
Just another idiot trying to relate evil with godlessness.

Nigerians believe in God. They know how he works - big old man in the sky that likes Israel and killed his Son for them.

They know God loves Christians who sin more than he loves sinners. Christians who sin are under grace - no grace for sinners.

God is like the average Nigerian Oga - he loves those who tell him sweet things, who bow before him, who never question Him. Like Oga, he punishes mercilessly those who fall out of line - uniformity in mediocrity is favored.

Believers in God commit evil. That doesn't make them atheist - just human like everyone else.

As in eeehn another huge imbecil_e. Her post is not even coherent enough.

sonofthunder:
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Here comes one

There are just too many idiots in Nigeria

budaatum:
He fought for the reformation of Jewish doctrine, and it was massive advancement in its time. The pity is the sparsity of detail outside the fantastically fabulous available about him. From the little that stands up to scrutiny though, he was profound enough for some to equate him to a god.

He was profound and quite knowledgeable going from the biblical portrayal. I'd like to read about Jesus from other sources but alas the bible is the only source with detail we've got

superhumanist:
@ bold,

This is why every pastor has his own way of remixing the bible. Any fool can claim God told him the truth through personal revelation.

This is how Joseph Smith, a convicted fraudster, used "personal divine revelation" to start a racist church called the Church of Later Day Saints.


cc Johnydon22, hopefullandlord, dalaman, budaatum

The doctrine of Jesus himself is one I find to be from a man who had profound faith in his convictions. It suggested no thought for the Moro, no attention to advancement, just leave everything and follow me.

Its either he was a fanatic who faught for a reformation of Jewish doctrine or he truly believed the world was coming to an end in his time and he was charged to save it.

Turns out, that too, was a delusion

That's cool.

michlins:
if not of recent, the jews are just bunch of religious fanatic like their Arab brothers

They certainly were.

darkchild64:
johnny u re really in the mood today

I notice that atheists on this forums are beginning to argue less or maybe they are more interested in trading insults with some major religious morons on this board (P.s: Religious morons doesn't mean every religious person on this board just one or two individuals who can't seem to differentiate arguments from complete idiocy)

Let me yank this board up once again

HardMirror:
weigh all options to establish the truth as much as possible. Could god be so human because it is actually a human creation? Is this too much to accept? We cant just be narrow minded on such an issue were we have overwhelming evidence staked against what it claims to be and yet is astonishingly fashioned to what this topic is implying.

The most astonishing pointers for me are in the incorporation of human characters to God.

Jealousy, anger, vulnerability, need and rage even though in concept described to be perfect and all powerful

michlins:
Some will defend this with the logic of it's what the folks can only understand but alas some people like the Mayans made predictions based on scientific research and it's still valid till today. But those guys telling folklore didn't see beyond their nose.


A snake was talking and walking so this one is nothing

For most ancient cultures and religions, superstition was intertwined with science.

They studied the natural world as a means to understand the mind of God.

E.g: they read the stars and kept charts, that was the birth of astrology that would culminate into modern astronomy.

The Hebrews however were religious fanatics who deemed such practices to be a pagan practice thus doesn't go well with their idea of God who is really jealous and would punish them for any slight lean.

Deuteronomy 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

Deuteronomy 18:9-10

“When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer...


To the Jews, astrology is not entirely a reputable occupation and it was often inseparable from cultural superstition, omens, divination by cultures who practice it.

So when these cultures due to their study of the heavens came up with amazing finds about the heaven, the Jews were not really interested in such endeavors.

This could explain why most ancient civilizations even ones that came before the Hebrew civilization took place seem a bit more advanced and knowledgeable than the Jews with a spiritual practice that incorporated science into the fabrics of spirituality

DeSepiero:
Your response was quite elaborate.
Considering your last statement, your conclusion will be ...?

It is more likely that John was making a precise discription

tintingz:
Most stories in the Bible are folklores and not historical, there are few historical stories mixed with legends, myths.

True

The stories in Exodus are filled with legends, there is no Moses in ancient Egyptian literature, no records of Pharaoh(Ramesses the most used) chased after some Jewish slaves in Egypt history, we don't know which Pharaoh and dynasty ruled then.

It served a theological purpose at the origination of this story