₦airaland Forum

budaatum:
You can't claim we don't spend much time and effort on the subject

I never claimed that sir. This is an excerpt from my OP....
Can you observe it with any OR all of your 5 senses? If you can, you are able to have as much certainty of this fact as anything else in the world. You'll never see two people debating the existence of shoes.
The point I'm trying to make is that a god who interacts with our reality does not need any argument for his existence

budaatum:
This is true. The evidence as seen on here confirms that "Many reasonable and intelligent people become atheists and arguments for God's existence always have reasonable counter arguments." And in fact, apart from buda, I don't know that any atheist has gone the other way. But that might be because buda is not "reasonable and intelligent" anymore.

Read between the lines sir

Many reasonable and intelligent people become atheists

I can understand that certain people may feel like I took a jab at religious people there. I really didn't....
However, I want you to consider something.....
Christians believe that Atheists are fools for not believing in YHWH (It says so in the bible)
Some christians even go as far as to label atheism, "a mental illness"
They cannot understand how someone cannot believe in a deity
So let me paraphrase that statement into a question for you, sir.....
What about those brilliant scientists and intelligent philosophers who don't subscribe to any religion? Why have they abandoned the faith?
Answer it and look if you can see where I am.....

budaatum:
I put it to you that God is exactly what you are finding hard to "distinguish from mere psychological or sociological effects".

Potato, Po-tah-to

budaatum:
Epistemological means "the knowledge of what we know and how we know it" , which are:

INTUITIVE KNOWLEDGE takes forms such as belief, faith, intuition, etc. It is based on feelings rather than hard, cold "facts."

AUTHORITATIVE KNOWLEDGE is based on information received from people, books, a supreme being, etc. Its strength depends on the strength of these sources.

LOGICAL KNOWLEDGE is arrived at by reasoning from "point A" (which is generally accepted) to "point B" (the new knowledge).

EMPIRICAL KNOWLEDGE is based on demonstrable, objective facts (which are determined through observation and/or experimentation).

So, I ask, while our epistemological framework (the, what we know), may allow us to be "far more likely to know that a pencil exists", are you suggesting our epistemological framework is so vast that we know whether "God exists"?

That's not what I said. At all.

budaatum:
Is it not therefore truer to claim that, "we find ourselves in a world and have developed an epistemological framework by which we understand it, but our epistemological framework of the world is as incomplete as that of those who wrote God created the heavens and the earth, in the entire scheme of things"?

EXACTLY, SIR!
And this is where things get interesting....
a/ If we don't have any perfect method of observing the "spiritual", how are people so certain that this things exist?
b/ Why would a loving God want to hide himself from people?

budaatum:
You have not established anything yet, juju! What benefit is it to God whether you relate with God or not? Why would an Almighty God want a relationship with you? On what basis do you rest you "relationship is the single most important thing to "get right"?

It doesn't matter what he benefits from it or what he doesn't. The fact is (according to the bible), that's what he wants...

Revelation 21:3-4

And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

Clearly, God wants a relationship with man

budaatum:
I don't agree that "God wants to have a relationship with anybody", juju. Explain to me why you think God wants to have a relationship with you!

“If a man has 100 sheep and one of them strays, will he not leave the 99 on the mountains and set out on a search for the one that is straying?”
The lesson?....
“Likewise, it is not a desirable thing to my Father who is in heaven for even one of these little ones to perish.”—Matthew 18:12-14.

budaatum:
In your honour juju. As your's is the first to evoke a "there is God" post from buda.

And yours is the first to get me preaching. SMH

MuttleyLaff:
I live in the bible

And I'm telling you that living in the bible is not helping you think outside the box

MuttleyLaff:
I dont have to quote you directly if I dont want to., and you can take it as you like it, like as if I really at all care you feel insulted at not having your ID being directly mentioned when I commented, and like as if, I spoke ill of you in my reply.

You don't need to use vulgar or offensive language before whatever you say qualifies as an insult.......
You could have at least mentioned me to address the question I asked. You mentioned Lord Reed, didn't you?........

MuttleyLaff:
This is the last time I'll ever again mention or quote the moniker anyway.

Awwwn. Muttley doesn't want to mention me anymore
Well, boo hoo, you big baby
If you choose not to quote me anymore, that's entirely YOUR problem. Am I supposed to feel sad? LoL!
But just know that if I see a post I want to respond to, I'll respond to it. No matter who's moniker it is. If you don't respond back, even better because it will appear to lurkers of these threads that I've made my point to you and you have nothing to say.

This one plenty pass the one of girls

LordReed:
LOL! Gonna have to get used to the sarcasm.

MuttleyLaff:
Now, for the one asking "read what?". Well there are two sides to every coin. There is no such thing as a one-sided piece of paper, so I travel a lot and visit many good, bad and ugly books, but live in the Bible.

1/ I'll advise you to shelve the bible sometimes and pick up books that aren't a disservice to reality.
2/ Next time you want to address my comment, quote me directly. Your inclusion of my comment in your reply to Lord Reed in that manner is actually insulting. But I'm just gonna let that slide...

??

Dantedasz:
How dare you compare the omniscient, omnipotent God to a pair of dusty shoes?
Do you not know our God is a mystery and his ways are not your ways?
How dare you??
You better read your Bible to understand God better and go down on your knees and beg for forgiveness lest you get cast into the lake of fire that burns forever and ever.....
Bewarned.....

Dantedasz:
Here's a video that shows the absurdity of your God.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJrqLV4yeiw

*sigh*

faithfull18:
Christianity wasn't borne out of logic neither has it been about logic in the first place. See this:

Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Corinthians 1:18–25)

This supports my initial post so I completely agree with you @bolded . No need for long talks

MuttleyLaff:
The more you read, the more you get to know all these

Read what?

budaatum:
Do me a favour and start a 'Is there a relationship between seeing religion metaphorically and seeing it spiritually'? please and I'll pray about it. Something may come, metaphorically or spiritually.

What do you think, budaatum?

CAPSLOCKED:
DEAR OH DEAR MY RECENT POSTS GAVE ME AWAY.

Lol . You try

CAPSLOCKED:

BUT....
UNLIKE SHOES, GOD IS A SPIRIT. YOU NEED FAITH TO BE ABLE TO ENCOUNTER AND FEEL HIM IN YOUR HEART.

I TELL U WHAT MY DEAR YOU HAVE TO BE SAVED BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE.

SMH. Can't believe I fell for that

CAPSLOCKED:

BUT....
UNLIKE SHOES, GOD IS A SPIRIT. YOU NEED FAITH TO BE ABLE TO ENCOUNTER AND FEEL HIM IN YOUR HEART.

I TELL U WHAT MY DEAR YOU HAVE TO BE SAVED BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE.

Define
a) Faith
b) Spirit

Pick up a shoe.....
Can you observe it with any OR all of your 5 senses? If you can, you are able to have as much certainty of this fact as anything else in the world. You'll never see two people debating the existence of shoes. That would be an exercise in stupidity.....
In contrast, the existence of a god is much less certain. Many reasonable and intelligent people become atheists and arguments for God's existence always have reasonable counter arguments. "Experiences" of God can be hard to distinguish from mere psychological or sociological effects.....
So the state of humanity is thus: we find ourselves in a world with an epistemological framework such that we are far more likely to know that a pencil exists than that God exists!
Having established all this, here is my question....
Now, if God really does exist and wants a relationship with us -- and if this relationship is the single most important thing to "get right" -- then why would God not give us more epistemic access to his own existence … than that of a shoe??. Doesn't this seem incompatible with the existence of a god who wants to have a relationship with us?
Cc. Budaatum, LordReed

budaatum:
No, I don't think smart people take their holy books literal. If they did and Alice Through the Looking Glass was a religious text, they'd be down a hole!

Religious scientists might likely understand metaphorically. God said, "let there be light" and there was a big bang, sort of metaphorical, after all, Newton did a metaphor and transmuted base metals into gold!

I wonder what the relationship between seeing religion metaphorically and seeing it spiritually, is?

Do you think there's a relationship?

budaatum:
And teach those scripture to those who can't read scripture and hence religion?

Perhaps....
Another thing to consider sir, is that a lot of these religious scientists understand their religion as a metaphorical system of values by which they live by. Its just a yardstick in my opinion. I don't believe they take their holy books as literal facts....

budaatum:
So, scientists cannot be religious? Religion is for the ignorant?

Scientists being religious is not an anomaly, sir. Monotheistic religions (e.g. Christianity) and science are obviously non-contradictory, and actually have a lot of synergistic features.
A major proposal of every religion is that whatever created the world created it with an order....
An inquiry into that order is prescribed by either scripture or scholarship. Infact sir, scientific scholarship has, historically, overlapped enormously with religious scholarship, monotheistic religions have been the prime institutions driving education and, in particular, literacy throughout history..... After all, it's hard to have a small army of scripture-interpreters without having them read the scriptures and write about them.

budaatum:
That religion is for the fuqed? I guess so. Might explain why so many unfuqed people are signing up becoming angels and helping the fuqed.

You don't need to be fuqed to subscribe to any religion, sir. Mere lack of understanding of how science works or the inability to explain certain mysteries is enough.

budaatum:
So, people run to God when they're fuqed? Jesus said so too, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

If it didn't work, it would be dead already.

Isn't that the beauty of religion, sir?

budaatum:
Fair enough. I for one hear more people praying for their needs in this life is all, and not worrying so much about their dead bodies.

How's about seeing religions as giving one hope in this very life and showing one how to attain what's hoped for? Or does it not do that?

Its very easy to believe in a god when your life is in shambles. Religion surely has its benefits. If it didn't have any, it probably wouldn't exist.

I'm officially gobsmacked

OpenYourEyes1:
There is no such thing as Homosapien.

I just saw this....
[img]https://media./images/75564c9a29be2b3398f0ce67911d1840/tenor.gif[/img]

budaatum:
There's this thing about elephants and people describing it by the bits they can feel, know it, sugar, that's what you done there.

Is that the only reason people chose to be religious, because they "cannot accept the concept of no (better) life after death"?

There may be others, sir. But it is a major reason.

budaatum:
Religion is "dreaming of utopia"? Which religion!?

Religion promises a lot of things:
Afterlife.....
Justice to sinners and wrong doers....
Eternal bliss and joy with YHWH in a dimension called Heaven......
The 72 virgin stuff with the Muslims......

People dont want to pulled away from their fantasies, sir. They've waved goodbye to reality and chosen to believe in things they have no way of proving objectively just because it suits their wishes and dreams and answers every question they have. And they're making the most of this new life. Religion, in this context, is utopia to me. At least that's how I see it.

hulk616:
no no no
When it comes out you will know naturally like election, Christmas.
It's not like DC Justice league, BvS etc that people were asking Google whether it's fake news

I can't..... this made me lol

[s]Y'all are just doing copypasta with memes lol[/s]
On-topic: Atheism is more logical than Christianity. At least in my opinion.....

It may become more marginalized than it is today, but as long as people cannot accept the concept of no (better) life after death, it will remain in one form or another. Raising the standard of living world-wide would help hasten the demise of religion because when your life is pure shit, the dream of utopia when you die is all the keeps some going.

theoriginalgood:
I think you need to re-read the English I wrote there.

I read it. I think you, on the other hand, need to refresh your memory on biology and the processes of the human body.

Omoluabi16:
Saw an endgame theory some days back about Ultron coming back, and it made sense.

Why does it make sense?

TheKingIsHere:
So fight don finish just like that?

Rextizz do not disappoint me!!!!!

He stopped responding faster than Internet Explorer
[img]https://media./images/97ab8b7caac8bab9aa4ad7f991b77c1d/tenor.gif[/img]
His internet connection must be sh!t lol. He can't move away too much from his router, it'll fvck his connection up . The broke little bum bitch

Rextizz:
If you check clearly I didn't derail, I was just on my own before some monkeys jumped on my post, and you don't expect me to keep quite?

Besides, if I wanted to derail, this thread would have been bloody by now, but I just kept it low, i won't let that nonentity get my attention, I'll too big for it, and probably don't Bleep with kids, especially some mannerless Yoruba kids.

Rextizz:
I was just on my own before...

Yeah, you were just on your own disturbing a chick (indirectly derailing the thread) who hasn't even replied to your dumbass. And this isn't the first time i've seen you disturbing this same girl.
Please respect yourself....
Dont mention me again....
And get your dumb, stalking, low self-esteem, baby-dick, lowlife ass out of this thread. Keyboard soldiers like you annoy me.

Rextizz:
Tell that boy to stop quoting me because I might be able to spill alot of blood this night, let it stay in it lane, i got no time for cretins.

Y'all should observe this spastic dunce called Rexjizz....
It was indeed a sad day when this abomination slithered out of the abortion bucket ....

Rexjizz, before I consider an insult I consider its source. There is nothing you could say that would offend me....
I am rubber. You are glue. Your words will bounce off of me and stick to you.
Run along now before this gets worse for you, I can tell your knees are already buckling in fear. Keyboard soldiers like you are not new to me===> Nairaland is not my first forum

TheKingIsHere:


Me like what am seeing

Hope you'll still be here when the fun begins
Somebody (Rexjizz) wants to be seeing this thread in his nightmares