@Deepsight

Thanks for your reply.

Deep Sight:

Apologies I had not provided the quote from the Grail Message you demanded earlier. My copy of the Messsage has been at my house and I have been away. Nor was I able to find online copies to quote from. I am home now, and we may address this directly.

Thanks for providing the extracts but I am afraid they are not helping your case. Here is why:

Deep Sight:

Extracts from the Grail Message [Three-in-One Hardback Volume] -

Describing Parsifal -

"A luminoius head in the most perfect form, cloaked in the eternal movement of the Living Light, which causes every created one who looks at it to lose consciousness and throws him down. The body enveloped in a radiant cloak which gives the impression of a flexible scaly mail, above the head the wings of the dove spread protectingly, thus can you envisage him, powerful, imperious, invincible, unnapproachable, the power of God embodied, the Radiance of God that has taken on form: Parsifal, Son of the Light, in the Primordial Spiritual, standing at the summit of creation. ."  - - - The Grail Message, Hardbound Three-in-one Volume - Page 1015. para 5.

The description above is about Parsifal in the Grail castle, and not Abd-ru-shin on earth.
Parsifal is the pure gate through which Imanuel radiates into creation. Parsifal and Imanuel are inseparable; or one can equally say that Parsifal is animated by Imanuel. His innermost core is the Divine unsubstantiate radiation of a part of Imanuel.

Parsifal’s body or cloak is made of the finest of all the primordial spiritual substances and this body was fashioned the Primordial Queen. From the radiations of her mantle, the Primordial Queen gave the first-form giving cloak for Parsifal. Thus Parsifal’s core is eternally connected to Imanuel; while, through Parsifal’s body(cloak) Parsifal is connected to the Primordial Queen.

A part of Imanuel remained in the Grail castle at the furthest point of the Divine realm; it is this part of Imanuel that is called the son of man. From the Grail Castle at the furthest point in the Divine realm, this part of Imanuel radiated outwards, outside the Divine realm. This Divine unsubstantiate radiation of Imanuel outside the Devine realm received a cloak from the Primordial Queen. This is Parsifal. So in the Grail castle in the Divine we have Imanuel, while in the Grail castle at the summit of creation we have Parsifal. They are two and yet they work as one.

This is why Parsifal is described as “powerful, imperious, invincible unapproachable, the power of God.” Parsifal is not God; and should not be worshipped. Abd-ru-shin never asked anybody to worship or bow down before Parsifal. 

Abd-ru-shin never said that Parsifal is God; such would be blasphemy. Parsifal is the Pure Gate to the Divine. He is the bridge that leads from the Devine to Creation, i.e. the Primordial spiritual realm. 

Deep Sight:


"At that time it was Parsifal who was on Earth in Abd Ru Shin. . ."

- - - The Grail Message, Hardbound Three-in-one Volume - Page 1014. para 9.

Parsifal does not necessarily equate to Abd-ru-shin, in His entirety. Even incarnations of Primordial spiritual beings on earth does not mean that the entire primordial spiritual being leaves the primordial spiritual plane and incarnates on earth. Only a part of the being incarnates, while the other part remains in the Primordial spiritual plane.

From my description of Parsifal you can already envisage that Parsifal occupies a very important position at the summit of creation. He cannot leave there without creation suffering great harm; thus He remains there. Through Him the Power that sustains creation flows from above into creation. So if He leaves, creation is lost.

I will give an example; When the Primordial Lion(a primodial spirit with a human form) in the Grail Castle at the Primordial spiritual plane incarnated on earth. This lion performs a very important task in the Primordial Spiritual, his task is that he filters heroism from the radiation of Parsifal and hence he radiates heroism to all that needs it in creation. This is a task that can not be stopped or even interrupted. So while he was on earth he remained in the Grail castle performing his task, only a part of him incarnated into the earth.

Indeed no physical body can carry an entire Primordial spiritual being! Nor can the earth carry any Divine being in its entirety. Each of the Devine beings at the steps of the Throne of God is bigger in size than the entire earth! Also keep in mind that Jesus and Imanuel are not just Devine beings, they are beings of Divine unsubstantiality, in that they are parts of God.

Now back to Parsifal. Parsifal’s volition to travel to all parts of creation took on form. It was this volition of Parsifal that incarnated on earth and wrote the Grail Message.

This is what is meant by the excerpt above. After writing the Grail message something tremedrouse, which I cannot explain here, happend to Abd-ru-shin. This is where I have to stop at the moment. There is more about the connection between Abd-ru-shin and Parsifal and Imanuel. But I will not say it all here; one needs to have read the Grail message before he can understand this. That’s why lectures dealing with this are in third volume of the Grail message. But we can go deeper if you want and I can explain to you how Imanuel the son of man was able to visit the earth; however, for the sake of those who have not read the Grail Message, I will not go to that length in a public forum like this. If you wish for us to go deeper, you can write me a mail at:

xxxxxxxx@******.com.

Please let me know as soon as you acknowledge this e-mail address so that I can remove it from this post.

Deep Sight:

"For the Divine, "Son" means a "part", a part of the father that works specially by itself. Son and Father are completely one and can never be separated"

- - - The Grail Message, Hardbound Three-in-one Volume - Page 1013. para 3.

"Perhaps one should rather say, it is only God the Father, who works threefold as one"

- - - The Grail Message, Hardbound Three-in-one Volume - Page 1013. para 5.

And the message does admonish man to bow down before his God.

Need I say more? Is it not obvious that the authour has deified himself as one and equal to God?

I can quote much more, which affirms the point if you insist, for the sake of the non-partisan reader.

No it does not. God has two sons: Jesus and Imanuel. None of these two sons of God should be worshiped for they are just parts of God the Father and not God the father in His entirety. Only God the Father should be worshipped.

Both sons of God were able to visit the earth through a process of radiation on which I will offer my perception if you write to me through my e-mail.

Abd-ru-shin never equated Himself to God!

This is my perception, based on my experiencing of the Grail Message; I hope m_nwankwo, whose opinions we both respect, would offer his own perceptions too, especially where his perceptions differ from mine. So that you can have a broader view.

Thanks and remain blessed.

I advise every reader of this post to personally read the Grail Message, and have a personal perception or experiencing of the Grail Message.

cogicero:

[list]
[li]something exists[/li]
[li]you don’t get something from nothing[/li]
[li]therefore, something necessary and eternal exists[/li]
[li]the only two options are an eternal universe or an eternal Creator[/li]
[li]science has disproved the concept of an eternal universe, it is known that the universe began at a point[/li]
[li]therefore, an eternal Creator exists[/li]
[/list]

@cogicero

Wonderfull!!!! With a few words you captured a lot.

@Deepsight

I cannot thank you enough! You have done my work for me. Logged in to treat Krayola's, Chrisbenogor's and thehomer's concerns, only to find out that you have correctly treated these concerns. The funny thing is that a critical analysis of their posts shows that these gentle men are actually saying that the universe has a non-physical creator. It would be more understandable if they claim that this creator or whatever it is that caused the universe to exist does not necessarily have to be a living entity; that would be better and more scientific argument for them to make. A better argument and not necessarily the Truth.

And when you expose this implication of their argument; they will just give a very short replies like, "says who?" "No one says this," "then what," or "this is a bad analogy."



@thehomer
The only thing I will like to add to you to the reply that Deepsight gave you is this:

thehomer:

How did you come about your knowledge of God? Were you initially told by someone?

First critical or scientific thinking led me to believe that there is something out there because the universe could have created itself. Then my intuition told me that the creator is God.

So my knowledge of God came from my intuition which is the voice of my spirit.

thehomer:

If the views held by lots of people are "un-human" then what do you think they are? Animal or machine views?

This view is not held generally by man. Most people do not hold this view. What makes humans peculiar is their desire to find the meaning of it all, to find a creator or to find God.

The fact that in modern times a few people hold this view of non-belief in God does not make this view the view that humans generally or usually hold.

How many people do you mean by “a lot.” Compared to the total numbers of all the humans that have ever existed, the number of people who are or were atheists is insignificant.  I can equally say that a lot of people drink blood. Does this make blood drinking the general or usual behavior of man?

thehomer:

No no. Don't get me wrong, I'm not offended. But why do you seem to give this preference to religious views and religious leaders? Are they people whose views may not be criticized?  

I do not give preference to religious views; I only respect what people hold as sacred.
As an atheist you shouldn’t hold any view sacred; if you do, then you qualify as a religionist. This is why in my initial post on this thread, addressed to deepsight, I said “alleged atheists.”  If a person claims to be an atheist yet sill hold his views as sacred; then such is dogmatism which makes such atheism another religion.

Yes, People who parade unscientific views as scientific truths should be criticized; because such practice is falsehood and deception. The religionist is honest enough to know that some of his views are unscientific; they, although not necessarily wrong, are beyond the scope of science.

Athesisit should also be honest enough to admit that his views have not and cant be scientifically proven, and hence unscientific.

Some atheists do more harm to science than religionists.

thehomer:

With respect to my views on atheism being a religion, you may wish to consider this topic where I posted on it. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-546562.0.html#msg7111144

Wonderful!! I am very impressed with the definition of religion that you gave, from wikipedia. “A collection of practices, based on beliefs and teachings that are highly valued or sacred”

Notice the part “held sacred.” A scientist never holds any view sacred until it has been confirmed beyond any reasonable doubt. Since your atheists beliefs or views have not been proven scientifically; then by holding them sacred you are only being a religionist.

By taking offence when your atheists views are attack, you show that you are not a true atheist, but a rather a religionists hiding under the cloak of atheism.

thehomer:

No. The evidence shows that it is expanding.

And expansion doesn’t imply movement? Expansion doesn’t imply motion of particles or parts of the universe away from each other

thehomer:

Oh really? So do people float into the sky, walk on water, make axe heads float, turning water to alcohol etc? Why limit it to physics? How about zombies roaming the streets, humans being molded from clay?  

All those things are false; they were made up by fanatics and religions enthusiasts. People float in air by a vehicle(Airplane for example); people can also walk on water on a ship or when the water is frozen.

Any miracle that goes beyond the laws of physics, simply did not happen. They are all ferry tales.

thehomer:

You don't notice any insult in it?

No I don’t. I expressed that in my perception such views are unintelligent; not necessarily that the person holding the view is unintelligent. I already explained this to you. I will not go round and round on one issue.

I have seen religionists who forgive easier when people insult their beefs or views, even though they hold these views sacred. As freethinker you should allow people to express their opinions on your views. I repeat: If you hold your views sacred; you are not and atheist.

Deepsight treated the rest of your posts extremely well. I agree with the replies he gave.

@toneyb and Krayola
Thanks for your nice and thought provoking posts. I will treat them later. I have to run for now.

thehomer:

If you're stating that the universe keeps cycling, then why introduce a God?

Good question!
I explained the fact that the universe keeps cycling to show:

(1) The Big Bang is not the creation or the universe, in that it is not the creation of matter and energy that make up the universe.
(2) Science doesn’t actually say that the universe was created by the Big bang. Science only says that the universe in its present state started by the Big bang, while acknowledging that before the Big bang the energy and matter that cooled down to become the universe existed in a different form. Science also speculates that other universes might have existed before the present universe.
(3) Although science is not sure where the current expanding universe may lead; many have come up with many speculations. I offered my perception of where the universe is headed to, based on my knowledge of the Laws of creation which are express nothing but the will of God.


Putting all these together you see how ridiculous it sounds when people say that the universe (the energy and matter in the physical world) was created by the Big bang.

I introduced God into it because the cyclic movement could not have started by itself and perpetually maintain itself in order; such would violet the law of thermodynamics.

A liquid cup of water, in isolation of every external force, will remain a liquid cup of water. It cannot by itself, and without any external force change from liquid to ice; or from liquid to gas. Only external forces, like change in the temperature of the environment can cause these changes in the liquid cup of water.

Fishes living inside the lake that is perpetually changing state, from liquid to ice; if such fishes were men, they would know that there is something else beside the lake. Something that they cannot see, yet they see its effects in the environment, the lake. They would figure out there is a source of power(heat) outside of the lake, which causes it to change state. And this power is the sun which sends rays carrying heat, thereby warming the lake; and during winter when these rays are hardly felt, the lake freezes.

The lake could be likened to the universe; the fishes could be likened to us; the sun could be likened to God who through the pressure of His power keeps everything in motion.

This is a coarse analogy though; it faintly reflects the relationship between God, His Power and the universe.

thehomer:

You are now introducing mysterious agents and dimensions into the equation. Do you have evidence for these alternate planes? How many are they? What exactly does this creator do? Is he tweaking the physical laws for maintenance?

The person(nucleaboy) that I replied to already believes in the existence of the beyond or the non-physical planes. At least I know that he believes in the existence of the spiritual realm.

Thus this part of the explanation that I offered him goes beyond the physical realm. Any realm beyond the physical is beyond the realm or reach of science therefore my explanations about them are not scientific. But this does not mean that the explanations are not true; they are simply beyond scientific examination.

The only evidence that I have about there existence is that only something non-physical, and outside the universe could have created the universe and keep the universe in motion.

There is no point explaining the various planes or creation to you since you don’t believe anything beyond the physical; you will only call my explanations fairy tales or myths. However if you are genuinely interested you can open new thread and we can discuss that.

Do I sense a curiosity about God in you now? Why do you ask me about how God maintain creation when you don’t even believe in God? Are you seeking God now?

thehomer:

So why introduce a God if you feel the universe keeps cycling?

I already answered this question.

Thanks

@thehomer

Thanks for pointing out the things that you perceived as insults in my posts; I will treat the issues you raised.

thehomer:


If this was a reference to a recent thread, my own opinion was that critical thinking generally leads to a non-belief in a God.

You said “generally leads.”  Well I have no problem with that although I’m quite convinced that it does not. Can you show me the statistics that show that most freethinkers arrive at a non-belief in a God?

I am a freethinker yet I am not an atheist. Perhaps your definition of freethinking is different from mine. By freethinking I mean:

[I]Inclined to forms one's own opinions rather than depend upon authority, especially about social and religious issues; exhibiting boldness of speculation; skeptical of authority.[/I]
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/free-thinking

However I will not quarrel much with what you said here because you said “generally leads” and this is your opinion which, although I disagree with, I still respect; especially since you said "generally leads" and not "inevitably leads."

Critical thinking does not inevitably lead to non-belief in God, agnosticism or atheism; neither does science. Critical thinking that is not guided by the intuitive perception may lead to agonisticim or atheism. God cannot be grasped by thinking, neither can science prove the existence of God because God is non-physical and science is confined only to the physical.

Anybody who chooses to be a believer, atheist, agnostic and etc must admit that his/her belief or non-belief is his/her own personal choice and not the inevitable product of science or freethinking.

The existence of God can never be proven scientifically, God is not physical and most believers accept this. The dishonesty lies with some atheists who parade their atheism as being scientific. The Truth is that atheism is no more scientific than theism.

thehomer:

What evidence do you base your belief in a God on?

I have said times without number that science cannot conclusively prove the existence of God( a living being or entity with a will). God is beyond the physical realm which science is limited to. The knowledge of the existence of God is an intricate part of the spirit of man. But this is not science either because the spirit is not physical. I have no scientific proof of the existence of the spirit; but I know that it exist because I am a spirit, and I experience my spirit daily and hourly. But to one who does not experience the spirit within him, his true self, I cannot help. However, such a person has no right to tell me that the spirit does not exist, just because he doesn’t experience it. Who feels it knows it!

thehomer:

This is one of the implied insults.

This is what I said:
Also claiming that free thinking will not lead to the acknowledgement of a creator is not only outrageous but totally misguided and terribly counter intuitive. It is the most primitive view I have ever encountered and it is completely “un-human.”


I do not see insults implied in what I said. I have the right to express my opinion on certain views. The views that I mentioned above are simply outrageous, primitive and “un-human” to me; this is just my perception which could be wrong or right. People's perception change as they mature, perhaps in the future I may come to a better perception; but no matter my level of maturity, I owe it to people to honestly express my perception.

Keep in mind that it is the view that I considered primitive and not you or whoever expressed the view; actually I consider you an inteligent person. That’s why I said “un-human” instead of “inhuman”, just to show that I don’t consider the person who expressed the view inhuman rather I consider the view as generally not the usual views that people hold.

Even extremely inteligent people do have some primitive or outrageuose vews in certain things, nobody is a know it all. So always feel free to point out where you find my views outrageouse and primitive.

I hope you see that what I said was no insult; I am dealing with views and not personalities. And these views are not peculiar to you; hence I was not insulting you.

If I had insulted a particular religious view or a particular religious leader, then I will readily apologies. I will never insult what people hold sacred; but you as an atheist should not hold your views in the same way that religionists hold their doctrines. Are you not showing, by being offended, that atheism is just another religion and nothing else?

thehomer:

Some aspects of science do apply some principles of chance and understanding these principles involves knowledge gained by understanding probabilities.

Wrong! The laws of science do not deal with probabilities. The laws are certain and under the right conditions, the results will be predicted to mathematical exactitude. An example “for every action there is a reaction” does not say “for every action there is probably a reaction”

thehomer:

This is a straw man argument with a bad analogy. No one makes this argument.

Then why not? If the universe(a physical thing) can create itself. Why can’t an object(physical) create itself? Why do astronauts put their lives in danger by flying in a rocket, if the rocket can probably by itself double its mass, which would cause it crash? If science deals with probability as such, why can you, when asked to calculate the speed of an object, say that the speed is probable.

thehomer:

This statement ended with another one of the implied insults. Also, are you speaking of the universe here? Because, this would imply a time line and a mass outside of it. And do you have evidence for this line of reasoning?

I do not think that what I said implied insult. If your friend tells you that an airplane took off by itself and is flying with not external force—the pilot and jet fuel, you will simply take it as a joke and if he is serious you will advise to have his head examined.

Yes I am also speaking of the universe because the universe is not beyond the laws of physics. The evidence is that the universe is in motion. Motion does not start itself.

thehomer:

I hope you do realize that the statements you've made above actually apply more to miracles and similar phenomena.

All miracles lie perfectly within the laws of physics, the natural laws or the scientific laws. Any miracle that goes against the natural laws simply did not happen; it was either intentionally fabricated or the observer lacked the knowledge of the natural laws in question.

And do you realize that the premise that the universe just exists without a creator is as laughable as the impossible miracles which some religious enthusiasts fabricated. Actually, to me, to takes more blind faith to belief in the premise of non-created universe than it takes to believe that people can turn into birds and fly in the night as witches.

thehomer:


Again, what is the scope of this argument? Is it limited just to objects within the universe or does it also constantly apply to the entire universe?

Everything in the universe is included; the universe itself too.

thehomer:

Do you have any convincing evidence for this alternate dimension you're proposing? Plus, you've just contradicted yourself. You stated that energy cannot be created nor destroyed yet you claim this energy was created you only proposed an alternate dimension to make up for this.

Let me rephrase my statement. “Energy cannot be created nor destroyed” so said science which deals only with the physical world as the only thing that exist. In other words, “In the physical world, energy cannot be created nor destroyed.” That means that whatever created the energy in the physical world or the entire physical world itself is not physical or is not in the physical world. Because in the physical world, energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

It is clear enough now? Forgive my inability to make myself understood the first time.

I will use an analogy. Lets say, In Nigerian they don’t build cars. This implies that the cars we have in Nigeria must have been built elsewhere. This also implies that elsewhere exists. Not only Nigeria exists.

Therefore not only the physical world exists; there are planes above the physical, planes beyond the confines of the present day science.  I can’t wait for the day science will be refined enough to deal with the non-physical.

thehomer:

Have you considered that objects like the universe may simply exist?

Without a beginning No! Science tells us that the universe has a beginning. A beginning suggests that something started or created it.

Also things(physical things) don’t just simply exist without a beginning and an end. This is unscientific! No physical object has ever simply just existed.

Otherwise why waste time trying to figure out who and how the pyramids were built. Maybe they simply exist.

When a stolen car is found in your garage don’t tell the judge or the police that maybe the car simply exists or appeared there. Actually that may be a good thing to say; for then they will not throw you jail, rather they will commit you to a mental institution. No insults implied 

thehomer:

No it isn't proof of such a dimension. Actually, such a dimension would keep creating energy and matter in this universe which would make the universe either keep keep warming up as it expands or at least keep the temperature stable but, what has been discovered is that as the universe expands, it cools. And such spontaneous energy generation would be noticed.
And lastly, this would actually violate the first law of thermodynamics because this energy is being spontaneously created.

How can you predict what the dimension will do so as to disprove its existence??!! Who says that this dimension must keep creating energy/matter and sending it to the universe?

Again this shows that this dimension is not just an automatic and uncontrolled thing but a living entity who had created and stopped creating yet maintains the creation.

thehomer:

Psychologists and other scientists have shown that such instinctive knowledge can be false.

Instinctive knowledge’s like? Give me example. Also you said “can be false” but not definitely false. In other words, such instinctive knowledge can also be true.

thehomer:

This is yet another implied insult. But, why do you assume that there must be some alternate entity out there "outside" of the universe sitting around creating the universe?

Again I don’t see insult in what I wrote.

“Outside” because the universe is physical and science has observed that in the physical world energy cannot be created or destroyed. I believe I already treated this question.

Thanks a lot,  I would have said ‘remain blessed’ but knowing that you are an atheist I’d rather not, incase you perceive it as implied insult.
Cheers

toba:

Wow I'm surprised and impressed with your posts above how u extensively dealt with the subject. Yes the posts were long but were informative /educative. I prefer to learn from this kind of epistles than read short ones that lack substance

@toba
You are very kind; I'm flattered. Thanks

thehomer:

Yes I have. It was quite long and rambling and was also sprinkled with insults.

@thehomer
Insults!!! I wasn't aware that I insulted anybody, neither was that my intention. Kindly show me where and how I insulted anybody so that I can apologise and learn from my mistakes.


@Deepsight, nuclearboy and InesQor
Thanks for your compliments.

nuclearboy:

^^^ Now THAT is rational, deep in understanding and very scientific.

Please elaborate more on the big bang being just one state in four

@nuclearboy

Thanks a lot. I will gladly elaborate further.

Science acknowledges the big bang as an event that gave rise to the formation of the universe in its present state. Contrary to popular opinions, science never said that the Big bang created the universe in terms of creating the materials that make up the universe. Just as on can say the freezing of water gave rise to the formation of ice blocks; this does not mean that the water was created by the freezing. The freezing is an event which caused the water to change its state; you can also say that the freezing state of water or frozen water is a state of the water. Water can exist in many states- liquid, solid, gas and etc. Actually matter can exist in four states: (1) Plasma state, (2) Solid state, (3) Liquid state, (4) Gaseous state. The change of state or stage does not imply the creation of a new substance(matter) but rather it is the same substance or matter, only that the molecules are rearranged. Thus it is the rearrangement of matter or the atoms of the substance that gives rive to a change of state. In Solids for example, the atoms are closely compacted atoms while in liquids the atoms loosely compacted atoms and in gasses the atoms are even more loosely compacted and etc. Also difference in temperature and entropy gives rise to this change of state or rearrangement of the atoms. Plasma state, for example, can only exist at extremely hot temperatures; while solids only can exist in a certain range of temperatures, gasses can only exist in certain range of temperatures, and liquids can only exist in only a certain range of temperatures.

The big bang or the stage that caused the big bang is the plasma state of all the matter in the universe. At this stage it is so hot, extremely and unimaginably hot that the whole universe and all the forces of nature(gravity, electromagnetic forces and etc) are united into one. Indeed the whole universe is condensed or contracted into an object even smaller than an atom; it is so hot that not even gases can exist. Every thing is united and contracted to an object smaller than the smallest nucleus. This is the primordial seed!! In time the temperature gets so hot and the universe contracts to a point unimaginable small and when it reaches the maximum point of contraction it exploded! This explosion is the big bang. Once this explosion occurred, the temperature reduced due to less contraction, and the universe then formed into hot gases or nebulae. Every explosion releases energy or pressure; this pressure caused the hot gas to move further apart and away from the center of explosion. As the gasses moved further away, temperature is reduced and consequently it got to a stage where the temperature is so reduced that dense nebulae can arise, and then consequently from the nebulae liquids and solids can form. As things cooled down, what we call laws or forces (which are nothing but intricate behavior of matter), can now arise. Thus gravity comes into play and many other forces; as the nebulae grow bigger they begin to attract. This is gravity or gravitational potential at work. Soon due to gravity suns, planets asteroids and etc resulted. And consequently groped themselves into solar systems; big bodies like our sun are able to exercise an attraction on smaller bodies and consequently capture them in its orbit. This is our solar systems were formed.

The pressure resulted from the big band is still pushing everything away. Thus the solar systems are moving away from each other; the universe is expanding. Science knows this; but does not know for sure where this expansion will lead. It is my perception that this expansion will continue till the solar systems are so far apart that the initial pressure that arose from the big band slackens. Then gravity will counter the expansion; the universe will start contracting. The contraction will continue; and as it contracts, due to friction, it will become hotter and hotter. Also the bodies will become bigger and bigger, consequently having ever greater attraction towards each other. Based on the law of Gravitational potential which states that “The rate at which two bodies attract each other is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square root of their distance” the bigger the bodies get(their masses) the more they pull each others and the closer the get to each other, the more they pull each other. Soon the universe will collapse, crash or contract into one hot spot. The extreme heat will contract the universe once again into a small invincible(to the physical eye) spot. The universe will return to being a primordial seed, which after a certain degree of heat and contraction will explode again into another big bang.

This circle of explosion, expansion, contraction, and collapse will continue. The big bang is the beginning of the explosion stage and not the creator of the universe. It is the same energy that passes through these four states; it heats up to become plasma, only to explode cool down to condense and become matter. Just like the same lake of water can freeze and condense into solid ice during winter; it also evaporates as gasses during hot summer.

People encounter problems when they try to separate scientific energy from matter as being totally different things. Scientifically speaking, matter is condescend energy or matter is made up of energy. If one understands this, then he/she would stop saying things like “matter can be destroyed during nuclear reaction.” Matter can never be created or destroyed by man or any natural process. Matter only changes state; matter can change its state to plasma state where it becomes pure energy. 

Just like a cup of water cannot by itself change from liquid to solid(ice) or to gas without an external force, be it change in the external temperature or other forces; the physical universe cannot be going through these changes or stages without external force acting on it. The pressure from the planes above the physical plane is the external force that is perpetually acting on the universe, keeping it in motion. Behind everything lies the “will” of the creator who set creation in motion and maintains it with ever new power annually.

Everything material passes through the four stages of (1) birth or blossoming, (2) ripeness or maturity, (3) over-ripeness or old age, and (4) decay or death. Our physical bodies, our houses, our cars, the earth, our solar system and even the entire material universe. The stage of death or decay is where the object is dissolved to its original components or constituents which will re-unite in another way to be born again. Thus after death or decay comes stage (1) birth again. This is the eternal circle of everything that is material.

The big bang could be likened to stage (1)Birth of the universe, not birth or creation of the substance that make up the universe. At the point when the solar systems are formed could be likened to stage (2) ripeness. At a stage in its expansion, it goes into stage (3) over-ripeness; then when its contracting it is in stage(4) decay which will lead its death which is a point where everything has retuned to the primordial seed. Then once again it will be born—another big bang.

Thanks and remain blessed.

Dear Deepsight! How body?
I see threads after threads where you have exchanges with the alleged atheists who claim that there is no creator. I read these threads with a smiles and bewilderment: Smiling at the funny arguments that there is no creator, yet bewildered in the fact that you continue to engage in such arguments when it’s very clear that science cannot disprove the existence of a creator; arguing with somebody who claims that science or freethinking leads to atheism is a waste of time. I stay away from such treads because I don’t want to be drawn into calling somebody insane. Anybody who tries to use science to prove that the universe has no creator or that there is no God is simply not a scientist for science is confined to the physical world, which is only a work of the creator and in which the creator does not reside. Any body who is an atheist simply chose to be; he cannot claim that his unbelief is the inevitable product of logical thinking or science.

Also claiming that free thinking will not lead to the acknowledgement of a creator is not only outrageous but totally misguided and terribly counter intuitive. It is the most primitive view I have ever encountered and it is completely “un-human.” Humans are called civilized because humans have the ability to logically trace any chain of events and anything that they encounter; they have the ability to observe and learn. Humans have observed nature and the first thing they found out is that there are inflexible laws that operate in nature. Thus by understanding these laws, humans are able to explain, or predict certain events. I.e. a doctor can predict to a certain extent the genotype of a child based on the genotype of the child’s parents. This studying of the laws of nature and application of the forces resulting from these laws to achieve great feats is what we call science. Thus science deals with laws that have been shown to be consistent and inflexible; science does not deal with chance, for in science chance does not and can never yield a consistent and an inflexible order such as that found in the laws of nature. Otherwise why spend energy and time learning the laws of motion? And would they be called laws if they operate arbitrarily or by chance? If science is an advocate of things happening by chance, why wouldn’t you, in a physics exam when you are asked to calculate the force that started the motion of a given object, say that the speed of the object and its direction is just guided by chance? Your teacher will simply tell you that your view is unscientific. Then the question arises: If some people can ague, yet defend such arguments as being scientific, that the whole universe which is perpetually in motion started by chance, why cant a student ague the motion of the object he/she was given to analyze in an exam started by chance? I.e. no external forces gave rise to the motion, or the forces that gave rise to the motion just appeared from nowhere or from the object itself. Even in elementary science, you can’t see a moving body and conclude that it started moving by chance or without an external force. You can’t see a car and claim that it started moving by chance or without an external force; such a claim is unscientific and unnatural for a human being. Any human being satisfied by such claims should better have his/her head examined because such claims are not worthy of a sound humanbeing.

Now back to “freethinking.”  It is the thinking that is free not that which is observed! You can decide however you want to interpret the laws of nature; this is freethinking. However the laws remain inflexible, adamant, and unchangeable. When in your freethinking you decide to consider the laws unnaturally flexible, then you are okay. This can only be achieved in the individual’s imagination; it is his perception that is faulty because the laws remain inflexible. This is actually what escapisim is; the individual fails to see reality and fails to acknowledge reality. Rather the individual believes in the illusions made up by his/her mind. For one who has any regard for reality will never question the inflexibility of the laws of nature. One of the basic laws of nature is that “for every action there is a reaction.” Thus every reaction is preceded by an action! This is one of the first things that mankind learned from observing the laws of nature. In every culture, nation or race, and no matter how primitive, this law of action and reaction is observed. Checkout the sayings (adages) of all the tribes, you will see this law expressed either as a proverb or as an adage. Even a child learns this before becoming an adult. Any body that sees a moving object instinctively will look to see the forces that keep the body in motion. No body will see an object (let’s say a stone) in his/her living room and conclude that it started existing there by chance. No body will find a consistent and intricate system like a pendulum clock and conclude that the whole system started by chance. Everybody knows that where there is consistent order, there was a "will" that gave rise to it and maintains it. Claiming that the order in an intricate system exists continually without an external force or external forces acting on the system is contrary to the laws of thermodynamics and thus completely unscientific.

Some people claim that the energy in the universe was created by the big bang! Nothing could be more unscientific!! Because science has observed that Energy cannot be created or destroyed; it only changes forms. And since science is confined only to the physical; it logically follows that in the physical world energy cannot be created or destroyed. Thus the source of the energy in the physical world was not created in the physical world; therefore there must be another dimension from where this energy comes i.e. where this energy is created.

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed! This is obviously very true as science have observed. But keep in mind that we are dealing with the physical laws, since science only deals with the physical. And the Big bang is a physical event! Thus putting 1 and 2 together you arrive at the Truth that whatever created the physical world or matter that made up the physical world, is not physical since physically energy cannot be created and destroyed. Nor is it the big bang which is only a physical thing and hence, according to the first law of thermodynamics, cannot create energy. Is this not a proof that another dimension exist? A dimension which is non-physical and which science cannot explain? Thus we have to look for the origin of matter in a dimension not physical because in the physical dimension matter cannot be created or destroyed. Big bang is only a state in the existence of matter, which is nothing but condensed energy, and which perpetually goes through different stages or states- the four states of matter. I can elaborate on this if anybody wants me to.

Thus everybody instinctively knows that everything that exists in nature has a beginning and a creator. Even the whole physical world has a beginning and a creator. It is left for the observer (the free thinker) to decide on what the beginning or the creator is. One is not confined to believe that this creator is the Christian God or the Muslim Allah. But to argue that the universe has no creator is totally counterintuitive, unnatural for a human being, unscientific, and to my perception, unintelligent.

.

Deep Sight:

@ Justcool -

M_Nwankwo spoke about the Trinity in another thread, and I quote him -

Observe the bolded words in red.

Does the Grail Message not teach that Abd Ru Shin is the Holy Spirit?

@Deepsight

While I agree with m_nwankow’s explanation in the post that you provided, I will not use the expression “God the son,” and “God the Holy Spirit.” Not necessarily because they are wrong but because I’m not familiar with those expression. So I will stick with what I am familiar with.

It is not wrong to call Jesus “the son of God” neither is it wrong to call Imanuel "the Holy spirit" or the “son of man.”

In reality they are both sons (parts) of God; or they are both channels in which God the father works. It is God the father that works in both Jesus and Imanuel.

Imanuel became personal as an act of will of God; God created the worlds through this act of His will, Imanuel. Therefore Imanuel embodies the creative will of God the Father.

Jesus became personal through an act of Love. God saved mankind through Jesus. Therefore Jesus embodies the Love of God the Father.

However it is wrong to call any of them (Jesus and Imanuel) God because there are parts of God and not God in His entirety.

They are both eternally connected to God the father and are one with Him.

So while there may be nothing wrong with the expression ‘God the son’ and ‘God the Holy Spirit’ a witty person may pick on the arrangement of the words and point out that it describes Jesus and the Holy Spirit as God.

This is my perception though.

Deep Sight:

I can only say that your surmise is contradictory. Its conclusion actually agrees with that which i set out - namely that love is what is key - and that recognitions of this or that entity are of no moment whatsoever - especially when considered as you mentioned that "swinging in the vibration of love" is what is key.

For this reason, I am entirely satisfied that even if in fact Jesus and Abd Ru Shin and Olumba Obu are all divine beings, one's ignorance of such will take absolutely nothing away from one's spirituality - so long as one is swinging in the vibration of love.

I might as well be a red indian living in north america 700 years ago.

One who swings in the rhythm of Love will one day come to recognition of Jesus. Simple and short. When a human spirit have not come to this recognition; it simply means that the spirit is not yet mature enough to enter Paradise. The spirit is simply not conscious enough.

Spirits in Paradise live consciously knowing of God, His Love(Jesus), and His will(Imanuel). Demanding a spirit who does not know of God, Jesus, and Imanuel enter Paradise is like demanding that a man who does not know Obama should serve Obama in the white house. If the servant does not know his master; how can such a servant live up to expectation?

Everything in Paradise in done in the rhythm of Purity(God the father), Love(Jesus), and Justice(Imanuel); how can one swing consciously in this rhythm when he/she doesn’t consciously know the where-off of these radiations? For a human being to be permited to live in Paradise, the human being has to be fully counsciouse spiritualy; to be fully consciouse spiritualy means to utilize your intuition to the fullest. And once this is done the spirit recognises, not only the raditions that it swings in, but the origin of these raditions.

Also swinging in any rhythm(radiation) without seeking to know the where-off of the rhythm is contrary to the nature of the spirit. The spirit yearns to know; this thirst for knowledge is an integral part of the spirit. Only an animal is satisfied with swinging in laws that it knows nothing of; this is a quality that lies naturally in the animistic but not in the spiritual. The spirit having originated from the highest part of creation carry the ability to trace every radiation in creation up to the highest part of creation(the spiritual part); and even carry the ability to "know of" those radiations above creation. In this ability lies the demand which the creator make on all that carry spirit within.

Now Deepsight look around you; where there is spirit there is the desire to know. As soon as a child notices sunlight, it looks up into the sky to the sun, to see the origin of this sunlight. Once a child realizes that it was born by its parents; it will ask its parents who gave birth to them and so on. This curiosity which is peculiar with humans is a quality that lies in the spiritual. An animal for example does not care who its parents were, once it passes the dependency stage; it does not care what the sunlight is, eventhough that it lives in the sunlight; neither does it care of the origin of the sunlight. It simply does not carry the ability to trace these things.

And how do you access the development of a child? By the question the child asks or by what the child knows!!!!!!

Deep Sight:

Now what is most key is this: and here I believe is another contradiction within your world-view -

1. The persona, identity and being of Jesus etc - are said to rest within the divine.

2. It is asserted that man can never comprehend the divine, as it rests above his origin.

Why then do you expect man to have or develop any exact recognition of beings resting within that divine plane?

This simply does not add up: nor can I accept that divine justice would require any such "recognition" from mankind.

For these reasons I find your statement that "a man who has not recognized Jesus will not be able to ascend to the kingdom of God" - to be quite off-centre, paradoxical and potentially misleading.

I never said that man can know God. Read my posts carefully I said that man can “Know of God.” To “Know of God” is different from to “Know God.”

Deep Sight:

Can anybody ever have God?

No.

So what you describe as a "yearning for God" is rather expressed as a yearning for love which is expressed by and amongst human spirits.

This is what it means to "have" God - within the human context and having regard to human experiential limitations.

I do appreciate that it is a living reality that pervades creation: but we access it in our experiencing which occurs as interaction with other beings and with creation.

God itself can not be grasped.

Like I already said man can never know God or grasp God in His entirety; but man can know of God. Man can know that which is of God, man can know the will of God in any situation. Man can know of God’s love-Jesus; man can know of Gods Justice-Imanuel; and man can know of God the father. Everything from God that descends into creation is for man to know of. Thus when Jesus incarnated on earth, it was God’s intention that man recognized Him for such recognition will make man listen to Him. The same is applicable to the son of man.

Your question is like asking why a student must recognize his teacher, a teacher sent to teach him. If a student does not recognize his teacher, such a student may place the words of his fellow students above the words of the teacher.

Deep Sight:

It is unfortunate to reduce the yearning and recognition of God to a cultish worship of a fellow mortal human being.

Much of your explanations dovetail with what i understand to be the truth - however it is regrettable that your conclusion attempts to demand an exaltation of a mere mortal as a divine being, and worse - follow up by insisting that persons who reject this are not "using their intuitive perception to their maximum. . ."

That leaves me dumbfounded.

Please show me where I reduced the recognition of God to the worship of fellow mortal human being.

As I have explained above, the human spirit being spiritual carry the ability to know of God. Man carries the ability to know of Jesus, and Imanuel; in this ability lies the demand to know of them.

A human spirit, who knows everything about the Love of God, as much as the human spiritual nature allows him, will also recognize this Love when it takes on form. For everything in Creation has form. The form of this Love of God is Jesus; He is the embodiment of this Love; He is the love itself living and walking among men.

To argue that an individual utilizes his intuition to the maximum ability and still does not recognize Jesus and Imanuel is like saying that a man knows everything about sunlight and yet does not recognize the sun, the source of the light that he claim to know everything about. How is that possible??

Deep Sight:

That is why we are also trying to gravitate towards Olumba Olumba Obu, and a zillion other claimants of divinity.

Only you can answer this one. I personally do not feel any gravity towards Olumba Olumba Obu; my spirit does not gravitate towards Olumba Olumba Obu. If yours do, find out why.

Deep Sight:

I believe I have asserted to you before that it is incongruous to speak about a "part" of God, for God is infinite, and there cannot be a "part" of an infinity. There can only be parts of finite things, and not of the infinite intangible God.

It is the height of human arrogance and presumption, this business of equating mortals with God, and it is regrettable that the otherwise brilliant work called the Grail Message, winds up with a declaration of the divinity of the writer. That is regrettably self-serving.

So God being infinite cannot make His love finite God made His Love finite and a part of this finite love incarnated on earth as Jesus.

Yet the ability to love which is infinite remained with God, an ability that can never be exhausted. It is the ability that is infinite. Each act of love is an expression of this ability; while the ability remains infinite, each act is finite.

Jesus is such as act of Divine unsubstantiate love; a finite act which has form, a form through which the infinite ability to love passes fort.

A potion of that which is infinite can radiate through a finite channel. Jesus was the finite channel through which a portion of the infinite love of God radiates.

Deep Sight:


Yes, close to God, not close to mere mortals claiming to be God or "parts" of God.

Viewed aright, everything in existence may be said to be integral to God.

Wrong. Creation owes its existence to the radiation of God. Creation is nothing but the radiation of God that has cooled down and is formed. Creation is not part of God.

God like light radiates. The radiation of Light is not part of the light but a consequence of the light.

Deep Sight:

Charity is the best that one can aspire to.

Any action, no matter how charitable that is not directed towards the spiritual benefit of man is worthless compared to that which benefits the spirit. Only that which helps the spirit ascend is beneficial to the spirit; it is the ultimate that man should aspire to; it is love in its pure form.

Some acts of kindness and charity are actually wrong and against the laws of creation, especially when such acts hinder the inner man of the individual it is directed to.

Love is sometimes harsh and severe. One who flatters a love-peddler or one who is charitable enough to give her money does her more harm than one who picks up a stick and drives her out of the streets.

One who is charitable enough to build a house in the church for the money changers does more harm than one who picks up a stick and drives them out of the church.

Deep Sight:

Well said. My only reservation being your presumptions regarding the identities of Jesus and Imanuel.

I have never tried to persuade you on the identities of Jesus and Imanuel. I have always said that each individual must come to recognition him/herself. Why you quarrel with me for my recognition is what I don’t understand.

Deep Sight:

I hope you see that the portion in blue contradicts the portion in red.

And in saying this i note that we are agreed that swinging in the vibration of love is what is key.

You may call that vibration Jesus, another may call it Shango, and yet another may call it Olumba Olumba Obu.

Personally, I will credit that person who ascribes it to GOD, devoid of any presumptuous promotion or deification of human beings.

Here you are making another mistake. The name in this case is not just a form of identification. For the name is the sound-form of the radiation. The name Jesus is the sound-form of the Love of God, while the name Imanuel is the sound-form of the will of God. You cannot just call them anything you want to.

Deep Sight:

Let us not run around in circles.

1. You state and believe that Abd Ru Shin is the Holy Spirit.

Imanuel is the Holy Spirit.

Deep Sight:

2. You state and affirm a belief in the Trinity comprising Father, Son and Holy Spirit - this is stated in the Grail Message.

Yes

Deep Sight:

Any person can add up 1 & 2 above and see the glaring result: you can therefore not deny the obvious inference. 

What any person arrives at by adding my submissions is the person’s conclusion. I implore all readers to intuitively weigh and examine my words; where ones intuition does not unite with my words, there the person should follow his/her intuition and not my words.

Deep Sight:

What is "part" of an infinity, anyway?

I have already treated this above.

Deep Sight:

Do you not realize that such a "part" must perforce itself bear the quality of infinity - just as surely as fractions of numbers themselves contain an infinity of fractions along the infinite number line. Thus stating that any person is a 'part' of God in the context you use does indeed amount to equating that person with God.

No. It does not. A cup of water from the Atlantic Ocean does not equate to the Atlantic Ocean. It remains a part of the oceans and not the ocean itself.

Deep Sight:

He described his own countenance as Parsifal in the Grail Castle, describing himself as "glorious, imperious, perfect" and commanding men to "bow down" before such imperious glory.

If that is not a demand for worship I wonder what else is. Do you require me to source the quote within the Grail Message? I will.

Where did Abd-ru-shin describe Himself as “glorious. Imperious, perfect”? Where did Abd-ru-shin command men to “bow down” before him?

Honestly I don’t know where you got the things you referenced above. The Grail Message definitely did not say those things that you wrote above.

Deep Sight:

I actually found this, coming from you, to be tragically sad. I deeply regret that you could have such a view of my motives.

Nonetheless, no matter: I state my concern again - and put very simply it is a frank worry that once any body of writing is accepted as infallible and ABSOLUTELY correct in truth, then the person accepting that can NEVER think outside that manual, and can NEVER challenge anything in that manual.

For me, that is a profound limitation in the quest for truth.

I apologize for making a wrong presumption of your motives. I was afraid of being drawn into comparing the bible to the Grail Message, that was why I skipped your question. Well now that you have rephrased your question, I will offer my perception:

The purpose of all any spiritual book or scripture should be to point man to the Truth. To bear witness to the Truth, or to the will of God. The intuition is always in accord with the will of God, so wherever any book or scriptures does not unite with ones intuition, one should drop the book and its teachings.

But when all the contents of a book unites with ones intuition; the individual should live to the teaching because such is tantamount to living according to ones intuition.

This is not limiting the individual’s view in any way; it is rather liberating it. For one should only live according to ones intuition.

This is not a limitation of the Truth. For the Truth is evidenced in the intuitive perception of man.

As always thanks and remain blessed.

@agi-tuedor
To you also I need to apologize for this late reply.

agi-tuedor:

@justcool

I have being viewing the debate between you and Deepsight. It is very interesting. I ahve some few questions for you and they are based on the Immutabilty of the Laws of Creation as stated in the Message.

I believe you are an African or at least a decendent of Africa (correct me if I am wrong). In Africa there is something we called witchcraft (different from western definition); It is based on the use of special techniques that "seemily" alters the Laws of Nature. I will enuciate a few:

You are correct; I am an African, and also an American citizen. Born and raised in eastern Nigeria(Anambra State to be specific), I migrated to the United States of America, to further my education, after my secondary school in Nigerian. Since then I have lived in America although occasionally I have visited Nigeria. I have experienced both worlds and therefore I am very familiar with African witchcraft.

Yet I firmly maintain, out of my strongest conviction, that the laws of nature cannot be altered; any alteration, even that as little as a hair’s breadth, is totally out of the question.

agi-tuedor:

1. The Laws of Nature, by means of physics, naturally permits that bullets shot at a person made in flesh and blood must penetrate due to its pressure; it may interest you to know that in Africa, especially my village in Delta State (Nigeria), certain individuals are immuned to this law. It has been tried and tested severally that bullets shot at them (even in the head) make no impact as to physical injuries inflicted. Are these individuals "above the law" as manifested in the gross material plane?

Nobody is above or immune to the laws of nature, and no amount manipulations can change the laws of nature. Behind the pressure that manifests what we call the laws of nature or laws of creation stands the power of God. It is the pressure created by the power of God that causes the laws of creation; and since none is greater than God or the power of God, it logically follows that none can annul the laws of creation.

Due to the distance of the worlds of matter from the Light, and the density of the substances that make up the worlds of matter; things are slowed down. Thus even the speed of the laws reduces greatly compare to spiritual worlds where everything manifests immediately. But even in the furtherest plane of the worlds of matter the laws cannot be annulled. In every part of creation, the laws of creation manifest and cannot be overthrown or annulled.

Man can study these laws and learn to apply them in manner that the lay person does not know, and achieve results that astound the lay person. But this does not mean that laws have been overthrown; for man had to learn about them first before he could achieve his seemingly impossible feats. I.e. a man building an airplane had to study the laws of gravity, motion, density and up-thrust and etc; he learns how to apply these laws or forces that result from them to achieve a vehicle, an airplane that flies. To the layman this vehicle defy the law of gravity, but in reality it is not so. This deferment of gravity is only ostensible, for in reality the airplane obeys the law of gravity.   

But in the case that you described above, it is my perception that such feats are not possible. No human skin can defy the penetration of a bullet shot at close range. A man can through incantations, meditations, charms and etc achieve a very strong and intimidating aura. Such aura may cause an opponent to lose faith, become afraid or confused in this man’s environment; such an opponent, although equipped with a gun, when confronted by the man, he(the opponent) may not make the right decision, may not shoot, may loose courage, or due to confusion he may miss his aim, and consequently the man will overcome him. This may give rise to a rumor that the man is invincible or immuned to gun shots. Also in Africa it often happpens that the man who failed his mission (to kill a person), out of fear of losing his reputation may lie and fabricate a story that his target(the person that he was sent to kill) disappeaded into the thin air or that his target is immuned to gun shots.

And one does not necessarily need charms, incantations, and etc to achieve the feat, of having an intimidating aura; it lies perfectly in the law of creation. Strong faith, conviction or strong courage already suffices to create an intimidating aura around an individual. Based on the law that all that is spiritual is attractive, a courage that issues from the spirit has a very attracting influence on all that carry courage within. The influx of this strong courage that radiates from the spirit of the man will envelop such an individual with a very strong aura. Based on the law that the strong overcomes the weak, another man of a lesser courage will loss even the little courage he has when confronted with the man of a higher courage. The magnetic influence of the stronger one will attract or pull away the weaker one. “For whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him." This Biblical statement, which lies perfectly in the laws of creation, expresses the manifestation of the law of attraction; it is even scientific as science has observed its manifestation on physical matter.

If you observe history, you will notice this in many events, even in Nigerian history. A brand of soldiers was once deployed to shoot Napoleon Bonaparte. On hearing this and filled with courage, Napoleon went to these soldiers who lost courage in his presence. With the words; “Will you shoot your emperor?” he conquered the men who were too confused and afraid to pull their triggers. Superstitious people attributed this feat to some supernatural powers. I read somewhere that during the coup of January 1966 in Nigeria, a road block was set for the General Ironsi. The officers that set up the blockage were instructed to shoot him at sight. On getting to the road block, Ironsi stepped out of his car and roared, “Get out of my way!” to the junior officers who immediately unblocked the road and let him pass. The junior officers lost their courage in his presence. Some people have speculated that perhaps the junior officers didn’t recognize him; others speculated that perhaps the junior officers lost courage; while others believed that Ironsi used his charm, the crocodile staff on the junior officers.
The problem with Africans is that most times it takes a charm to awaken their courage or conviction. It is the conviction that creates the aura like I explained above, and for this a charm is not necessary. It happens that the individual being superstitious put his faith in the charm, believing that as long as he has this charm no harm can come to him. This strong belief or conviction allows courage to flow through his spirit. The strong courage that flows through him has an influence on his opponents like I explained above. In other words it is his faith(conviction of courage) that saved him and not his charm. Just as an individual who is convinced that touching a prophet will heal him; on touching the prophet, this convictions allows him to open his spirit unrestrictedly to the flows of healing energy in creation, and consequently energy will flow through him healing him. If the prophet was knowing and honest, the prophet will tell him that “his faith has saved him.”  One can achieve such a strong conviction without a charm; it is unfornunate that Africans or negores have an unnecessary predelection towards charms. The problem with using a charm to achieve such conviction is that in the absence of the charm the individual losses his courage and becomes afraid and consequently harm would come to him. Perhaps this is why Danjuma took away Ironsi’s crocodile staff first before arresting him. Here I am not saying that Ironsi was fetish, I don’t know this, and I am not judging the man. I am only using his case to give you a gist of what happens in Africa. I read that the man was a good catholic. Rightly understood, it is not the charm that saves or protects the individual, rather it is the conviction or faith which the individual places in the charm, this faith or strong sense of security creates a strong aura around the individual; this aura protects the individual much like the atmosphere protects the earth.

Now back to your question. I do not believe that the human skin, under any circumstances can prevent a bullet from going through it. Those that appear to do so are only performing magic. It is not real, they are only tricking you.

You didn’t do the shooting your self. You are not sure that the guns had real bullets or if they were loaded at all. If you believe that it is real, then I will keep in touch with you so that the next time I visit Nigeria you can show me. Whatever car I have then will be yours if you can show me the individual who gets shot without the bullet penetrating.

agi-tuedor:

2. It is possible by certain means to invoke the forces of nature like thunder, rain even fire for specific purposes like the destruction of a human being etc.

Yes. It is my perception that this is possible. Just like one can pick up a stone and throw on another person; or just as one can command his dog to bite another person. One can affect the natural forces; behind these forces lies animistic beings called elementals who perpetually work in them. Humans, through the volitions of their spirit create demons like furies; these demons can greatly interfere with the natural forces, these furies can interfere or become a hindrance the working of the elementals because just like the elementals, demons carry animistic substance as their animating core.

It was easier to achieve such evil feats before than now. For now, in the present time, greater power pours from above into subsequent creation; this power of God strengthens everything that is right and destroys everything that is evil. Thus the elementals now stand directly in the power of God making them more powerful and less easily controlled or interfered with. This power will keep being poured into subsequent creation till all evil is destroyed, till the earth is purified.

But genuine prayer remains the best and the most superior way to deal with the forces of nature. With prayer one can prevent certain natural disasters, and where it can not be prevented, the individual will be shown a way to escape such disasters.

Also, it depends on the psychic condition of the person whom you are calling the disaster on to allow it to happen in his environment or not. Everybody is protected by an aura, like I explained above; one whose aura radiates with purity, the purity of such an aura will not let darkness leave a lasting mark on him. Just like the atmosphere protects the earth; the purity of the person’s aura will deflect the evil approaching him.

So for one who lives according to the true teachings of Christ, it is a waste of time trying to invoke thunder to strike him. It will be dissolved, deflected, or reflected by his aura.

But the one who sends such thunder or impure currents towards his fellow man is doing more harm to himself. The currents he sends out will definitely return to him greatly multiplied. He will reap what he sowed.  So those who practice such things, do more harm to themselves than they do to their neighbor.

agi-tuedor:

3. It is possible to attract wealth (money) by means of some ritualistic practices. These individuals seems to take the goodluck of relatives and this is manifested by their non-productivity.

All that is spiritual has an attracting and s strong influence on all the lower species. Spiritually speaking one can attract anything to oneself, through the process that I explained above. Our thoughts and volitions have forms which can condense, press and have an influence on the coarsest gross matter.

Also based on the law of attraction of homogeneous species, those who live for more money will always attract each other. And their thoughts or volitions for money and wealth will also attract similar thoughts and volitions making their thoughts and volitions stronger and giving them more ideas on how to make money.

The ritualistic practices that some of such people practice are really not necessary. Some pf such practices are futile; at best they serve to increase the individual hunger for more or put him in a better frame of mind to make money. Just as the ritualistic practices of wearing a doctors robe puts the doctor in a frame of mind to perform the work of a doctor. Such rituals may only serve to allow the individual who places trust in them, to awaken courage. All powers of attraction come from the spirit.

It is not possible to take your relatives luck. If I do good, based on the law of reciprocal action, I will reap the benefits of my good deed; nobody can reap what I have sowed, except me.

agi-tuedor:

To the western mind these facts and many more is just fantasy. My own sect (name withheld) teaches them to be mere superstitions but time and time again I have seen (I mean see with my two eyes these things happen especially the ones with regard to bullets). As much as I like to believe in the teaching that the laws are unbroken; African tradition tells me otherwise.

The laws are not broken. The issue with bullets is only magic. It is pure deception. African traditions doesn’t really tell otherwise; the problem is that many of the genuine practioners of African tradition did not fully understand the laws guiding their practices. And among such practioners were many charlatans who trick people just to gain money, reputation, respect or fear of the masses.

There are ancient African sayings that prove that they know that certain things are impossible. The ancient Igbos, who where great philosophers say “ife amulu amu ka ife agwo lu agwu.” (I’m not good in writing Igbo so I might have written it wrongly). It roughly translates to “What is learned or what is done by learning or by knowledge is greater or more superior to what is achieved through juju or fetishisim.” Could anything be truer than this saying? It goes to show you that they knew that all those things achieved through juju or rituals are mere illusions which cannot be compared to what is achieved by learning the reality of the laws of nature or through laboriously studying the laws of reality. Our forefathers were wiser than we thing they were!

agi-tuedor:

It should be noted that these facts as outlined here as the very simplest that these folks do. I have heard that they can even stand on a single broomstick without breaking, walk on water or fire, dissapear or change location in speed unimaginable e.tc. As a seeker of truth, I am obliged to speak the truth always; the ones outline here have been personally experienced by me, so I speak from first-hand knowledge as to their effficacy.

What is your take in this?

The ancients Egyptians moved giant stones, by applying the laws of nature which they have studied and learned, not by annulling the laws. Much like today’s engineers make a very heavy airplane fly like a thing as light as feather, by learning and applying the laws of nature and not by annulling these laws. If a man stood on a broom stick(which I doubt very much); he could only have done so by applying a knowledge obtained by laboriously learning or studying the laws of nature; not by annulling the laws of nature.
Walking on fire is possible; although you will definitely get burned, its possible to trian yourself noot to feel the pain.
Disappearing is out of the question; it is not possible. When it is done, it is the perception or vision of the onlookers that is deceived and not that the practioner disappeared. I can elaborate on this when opportunity presents itself.


Thanks and remain blessed.

@obi o1
Thanks for your questions. I apologize for my late reply; its been a very hectic week for me. You can’t imagine what I’m going through now; but in-order not to bore you with my problems, I will go straight to treating your questions.

obi1o1:

@justcool
I appreciate how you & other grail adherents are helping out in this forum,i hope you don't mind my questions on reincarnation.first,what is the purpose of reincarnation,is it spiritual maturity or reaping what you sow.

Reincarnation is a manifestation of the Love and Justice of God; everything we call laws of creation are nothing but manifestations of Love and Justice of God. Indeed the whole creation issued out of this Love and Justice; and everything in creation, even the minutest processes, is guided by the Love and Justice of God.

Reincarnation offers the human spirits in subsequent creation an opportunity to mature because one earth-life is not enough for the human spirit to learn all the lessons that it needs to learn on earth; reincarnation allows the spirit to return to earth as many times as it is needed for the spirit to complete its maturity.

Like every law of creation, if one adjusts oneself aright to the law, it will only bring benefits and blessing to the individual; but when one is not adjusted in the right manner to the laws, only sorrows, unhappiness and misfortunes will result. But even this “sorrow, unhappiness, and misfortunes” is a manifestation of Love and Justice in that it shows the individual to see how he is adjusted to the laws. Sometimes it takes a blow of fate(misfortune) to awaken an individual spiritually, to seek God, or to change his attitude towards life and his fellow man.

So while reincarnation offers the human spirit the opportunity to return to earth as many times as it is needed to learn all the lessons it needs to learn on earth; an individual who abuses the gift of being on earth by harming his fellow man, thus an individual not well adjusted to the laws of creation, will be forced to reincarnate on earth to live through the circumstances he placed his fellow man while he was on earth. This is where the law of reciprocal action (Karma) comes in.

Even this being forced to incarnate due to karma, is also a manifestation of Love and Justice, in that it offers the individual an opportunity to get rid of Karma that the individual had incurred in his past life.

The purpose of reincarnation is not to punish; for in reality God punishes nobody; the laws of God are meant to help man mature and live happily, and not to punish man. But when man abuses these laws, that’s when punishment results. So in actuality it is man that punishes himself and not God that punishes man.

On the final analysis, if one adjusts himself aright, reincarnations will result to the spiritual maturity of such a well adjusted spirit. So the purpose is for the spiritual maturity of the human spirit in subsequent creation.

obi1o1:

Do you think the aim is actualize?with freewill don't you think the person might turnout worst e.g Deepsight might be one of the apostles with Jesus(who believed Jesus is God),now he is deepsight( who does'nt believe) and later he might be a christian or trinity serial killer .To me darkness is on the rise in most countries but with reincarnation you will expect things to be better since most people are coming back.

It is left for each individual to make the right use of his/her freewill. I.e. adjust himself/herself aright to the laws of creation, and actualize the purpose which is spiritual maturity. When things turn out worst it is always the individual’s fault; for if the individual had used his freewill rightly only progress, maturity of the spirit, and blessings will arise.

If when he was an apostle of Jesus, the individual had let the rays of Love which is radiated from Jesus, find their way into the individual’s spirit. His spirit can swing in this rhythm eternally, irrespective of whether the individual is on earth or in the beyond, irrespective of whether he is a Moslem or a Christian in his next incarnation. Such an individual who maintains connection with the Love that radiates from Jesus will never be lacking in love in his actions; such an individual will never become a suicide bomber even if he is a Moslem. But it is left for the individual to maintain this connection with the radiations of Jesus, by obeying the promptings of his spirit; or to lose this connection, by not listening to the voice of his spirit(his intuitive perception). It all depends on the human spirit; despite all opportunities and help that God provide through His immutable laws of Creation.

Chances are that such an apostle will reincarnate in an environment where the knowledge of Christ exist, i.e. in a Christian family, so that the individual will build up on what he already knew in his past life. Such an individual, who had kept his connection to the rays of Love, will exhibit a more understanding of Christ’s words even though he may never realize, consciously with his present physical brain, that he was once and apostle of Jesus.

Should such an apostle incarnate in a Moslem, Buddhist or Hindu environment, or in an environment where Jesus is not known; the individual may never consciously come to the knowledge of Christ with his physical brain, but as long as his spirit maintains its connection with the rays of Love of Jesus, the individual’s spirit will still swing in this rhythm of Love. Such a person will be a loving person even if he is a Moslem, Hindu or a practioner of the African traditional beliefs.

Real life lies only in the spirit; the physical body along with the brain is only a tool for each particular earth life. So an outward Christian, one whose Christianity does not proceed from his spirit, is not really a Christian in the eyes of the laws of God. Such a person is only paying lip service or can be counted among hypocrites who will not be allowed into the kingdom of God. Remember, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

“he who does the will of my Father…” is the individual who listens and obeys the voice of his spirit. Because only in spirit can God be worshiped, even this is hinted in the gospel. So a man may know the entire Bible with his brain, he may even be a pastor, but as long as his spirit is not involved, such a man is only a hypocrite. Even if he preaches about Jesus and performs miracles, as long as his spirit is not involved, he is not a genuine follower of Jesus. If you look carefully in the society you will see such people; pastors who preach about Jesus yet they have no love for their fellow human beings. A person, who does not consciously know Jesus, yet is filled with love for his brother is a better follower of Christ than such a pastor.

What one knows with his brain or by reading is only learnedness, it is worthless compared to that which comes from the spirit.

No matter where the individual finds him/herself reincarnated on earth; the reincarnation is an opportunity for him to build up on his past incarnation. It often happens that such a Buddhist, Hindu, or Moslem, who was a apostle of Jesus in his pas life, by swinging in the radiation of Love, his spirit will attract all that swings in this rhythm of love, because all that is spiritual is magnetic; it may happen that while being a Moslem, Hindu or Buddhist, such a person may come in contact with the teachings of Christ. Such a person may come in contact with the original teachings of Christ. Such a person will immediately feel an affinity with the true teachings of Christ and may convert immediately.

But even if such an individual remains a Moslem, he will always radiate love in his actions. The state of our spirits is evidenced in our actions, not in learnedness, and not necessarily in religious affiliation or nationality.

Where such a previous apostle vehemently opposes the true teachings of Jesus or becomes a murderer or an atheist, there the previous apostle had stopped listening to his intuitive perception; he is as good as having lost his connection to the rays of love that emanates from Jesus. This is only his fault; it is not God’s fault nor is it due to reincarnation. It is totally the individual’s fault.

This is why darkness is on the rise in most countries today; the fault lies with man, and not with reincarnation. Of course, given the fact of reincarnation, you would expect things would be better on earth today because most people on earth have been on earth many times already; but this does not mean that reincarnation is false. It only goes to show how much man has fallen, and what a bad student of life humans have become. I will give an analogy: It is expected that when student repeats a class he/she does better in the class. But there are students so bad that after repeating a class three times, on their fourth time of repeating the class they still do worst than they did the first time.

The lessons learnt in each earth-life are reserved to the spirit; any knowledge that resides only in the brain is lost as soon as the brain dies. Thus in the next earth-life if the individual does not pay attention to the voice of his spirit, he will not utilize the experiences of his previous incarnations, neither will he be able to build on what he learnt in his previous incarnation. Since the lessons learned from his previous incarnation is stored in his spirit, by not leistering to his spirit, the individual has closed the door to the experiences gained in his previous earth-life. So it doesn’t matter how many times you have been on earth already; as long as you don’t utilize your intuitive perception you will do bad(fail) each time.

obi1o1:

The last is,is it optional?do we have to come back to earth or we can mature/reap someplace else.

The developing human spirit (spirit germ) needs to experience both the physical(Here) and the ethereal(Beyond) for its maturity and development. Certain lessons or experiences it can only obtain on earth, while certain experiences it can only obtain in the beyond. Thus a thorough experiencing of all the planes of the worlds of matter, i.e. a thorough experiencing of the physical plane (the earth belongs to the physical plane) is not optional but necessary for the development of the spirit.

The option of how many times we need to return to earth lies, to some extent, with the individual. If one listens to his intuitive perception, or if one adjusts himself/herself aright to the laws of creation, he/she would learn the lessons that he/she needs to learn fast and will soon be matured enough that he/she would no longer need to be incarnated on earth anymore. Such an individual would soon be lifted out of the worlds or matter(both here and the beyond still belong to the world of matter) and be allowed to return to the spiritual world(Paradise). There he/she would live eternally swinging joyfully and consciously in the rhythms of the laws of God.

Apart from the need for maturity, the only time a spirit is forced to incarnate is when such a spirit had incurred karma on earth. Such a karma that can only be paid on earth, where it originated, will force the individual to reincarnate on earth thereby offering the individual an opportunity to pay for the Karma.

People mature in the beyond too; and even in Paradise. There is no end to maturity. But a certain level of maturity is needed before the spirit can return back to Paradise. The spirit has to have become fully conscious before it can be allowed to return back to Paradise.

Thanks and remain blessed.

@Deepsight

Thanks you so much for your questions; you raised some important questions. I will offer my perceptions on the issues that you raised.

Deep Sight:


If one has love embedded in his heart and live according to the disctates of his conscience, what need is there to recognise the identity of ANY spiritual or divine being? ? ? ? ?

The thirst for the knowledge of God is an integral part of the Spirit. Conscience –I will rather use the word “intuitive perception” rather than conscience. Intuitive perception could be likened to the voice of the spirit; and one who follows the promptings of his spirit is already on the right path, as you quite rightly said.

But so many volitions and thoughts strike humans on earth, and some people find it difficult to discern that which is the voice of their spirit (intuition). Consequently many people live in volitions that are totally alien from their intuition, yet believing that they are following their intuition.

Before we deal with intuition and love lets ask ourselves what the spirit is. Spirit is the will of God. All that bear spirit within are part bearers of the will of God. Hence the intuition, which comes from the spirit, is always in accord with the will of God.

In this ‘bearing the will of God’ lies the fact that the spirit cannot exist as spirit without God or the will of God. The spirit needs God, and not only that, the spirit carries the ability to recognize the will of God in any situation, and to know of God. In creation wherever an ability is given, from there it is also expected the maximum use of the ability.

This ability to know of God, an ability which lies in all that is spiritual, is also a demand from all that bears spirit within, to know of God. The impetus to this is given to the spirit in the thirst for God which is an integral part of the Spirit. Thus all that comes from the spirit is filled with the thirst for God. Every intuitive perception is permeated with love and the knowledge of God.

When an individual tells you that he lives in his intuition yet he feels no need to approach God or recognize God. Such individual does not live in his intuition; neither does he know what love is. For in the thirst for God lies the love of the spirit for God. And only the man who loves God can love his neighbor. I know this is hard to accept given the caricature that we humans have made of love. But what we humans generally call love is not the Love which Christ spoke about, it is not the love that is embodied in Christ.

So simply put, real love cannot exist without God; one who does not know of God cannot radiate real love. Love comes only from the spirit; it is an integral part of the spirit; it is always evidenced in the intuitive perception just as the thirst for God is always evidenced in the intuitive perception. Love is neither a feeling nor an emotion; it is simply an intuitive perception.

A man in susbsequent creation who have not recognized Jesus is not yet fully utilizing his intuitive perception to maximum. If a man truly listens to his intuition, he will be filled with the thirst for God. This intuitive perception is the purest form of prayer, which in its reciprocal effect will link such a man with the rays of God's love. His spirit will trace this ray to its very source--Jesus.

Experiences will bring such man in contact with Jesus, but not personally. Such a man may in his intuition discern the vibration love in creation, as the knowledge of God and Jesus vibrates throughout the entire creation. This recognition doesn't necessarily have to be on earth; one can arrive at this recognition in the beyond.

Thus a man who has not recognized Jesus will not be able to ascend to the kingdom of God. His nonrecognition is a stamp of the immaturity of his spirit. A mature spirit utilizes its intuition to the fullest; and one who does this will easily pick up the vibrations of Love(Jesus) and Justice(Imanuel). These vibrations reverberate in the entire creation, for creation itself issued out of these vibrations.

But keep in mind that this recognition, this picking up the vibration of Love that descends from above, does not necessarily have to been done consciously. A man’s spirit may already have made contact with this vibration; this prompts such a man to radiate love to his fellow creatures. Every now and then this vibration stirs unexplainable longings in him, he longs for what he does not yet know; his spirit already swings in the rhythm of love, yet this man being a Moslem or a Buddhist may never suspect that his spirit has already made contact with the spirit of Christ. The weight of his brain may never allow him to consciously acknowledge Jesus. Only on passing on, when his physical body falls away as in physical death, will he realize that he already lives in the love of Christ and perhaps was a better disciple of Jesus than a Christian. Then, freed from the weight of his physical body, he will easily trace this radiation all the way its origin--Jesus.

This explains why the ancients, as they matured were able to come to the knowledge of the lords of the elemtals, spiritual beings and places, and even the Grail. The ancient Romans, from the radiation that descended from above, where able to pick up and discern the lords of the elemental like Jupiter, Venus and etc. The ancient Jews who were more advanced spiritually were able to decipher spiritual happenings and beings from this radiation, beings like angels, the son of man, the fall of Lucifer and etc. Certain stories which we regard today as legends are actually bassed on happenings in creation, although some of them are not passed down correctly and some have a lot of fantasies attached to them. Legends like that of Parsifal the 'Pure Gate', the fall of Amfortas and etc. These are bassed on actual events that took place; like a stone dropped in an occean causes ripples across the body of water, these events send ripples of vibration across the entire creation and sensitive spirits pick them up.

All that happens and exsist above radiate downwards towards subsequent creation; what each spirit is able to pick up from the radiations is a testerment to the spirit's level of maturity.

So the human spirit must arive at the recognition of God before it is permited to enter the Kingdom of God.

Deep Sight:

Is everything not completed in the simplicity of love? ? ? ? ?

Yes but what is Love? Can one love genuinely without his/her intuition? Can one utilize his intuition without yearning for God?

Deep Sight:

Is it not rather the creation of unnecessary cults of legend about human beings that necessitates any special recognition of any particular being? ? ? ?

The desire to recognize God and all His manifestations in creation is not born out of fantasy, but it is an integral part of the spirit. The spirit is hardwired to thirst for God; just as a duck thirst for water or a fish longs for a body of water. This is natural quality of the spirit; just as a helium filled balloon naturally floats upwards so does the spirit naturally long for and float towards the kingdom of God. Just as it is hardwired into plants to grow towards the light, or spread their leaves in the sun; so is the desire for God hardwired into the spirit.

Like I explained already, the spirit naturaly gravitates towards God. Consequently whenever a part of God enters creation spirits in creation gravitate towards Him. Thus the desire to know Jesus and to approach Him in spirit is not born out of fantasy, rather it is a natural effect of reality. The same is applicable with the desire to know the son of man, who also carry Divine unsubstantiality within Him.

At the time when Jesus was on earth, any person who fully utilises his intuition will end up being a follower of Christ; such a person may soon find himself/herself in the vicinity of Jesus. If he never meets Jesus in person, he will definitely come in contact with the words of Jesus. For Jesus' word, like Jesus Himself, has an attracting effect on all that is spiritual; the same is applicable to the words of the son of man. It is unimaginable how some people met Christ and yet turned away from Him and His words; this is a sure sign that thier spirits were alseep. Those that abbandoned everything and followed Christ were not fools; they were just obeying a natural urge from thier spirits. This is an effect of the natural law of attraction; for "where the carcass is, there the Eagles are gathered."

Wherever the intuition is evidenced there the desire for God is caressed. For the thirst for God is an intricate part of the spirit. The hallmark of all religions should be to link man to his creator. The desire to know of God, to live in the laws of God, and to be as near to God as man's nature permits is the right impetus for all religious movement.

Any cult formed without this desire as the basic foundation has no spiritual bases no matter much charity they do.

Deep Sight:

For I am firmly persuaded that even one who recognises NO spiritual or divine being (such as a pure buddhist) may remain on the right path so long as he believes in and practices genuine love.

The whole idea of "recognising" any particular being as "special" in the specific terms that you referred to, is nothing short of vain-glorious idolatry, in my humble opinion.

The individual who practices genuine love( Love that comes from the spirit) is already on his way to coming in-contact with the spirit of Christ. Such an individual will soon be filled with the desire to approach God. As long as he continues on this path, he will one day come to the recognition of Jesus and Imanuel. But this doesn't necessarily have to be on the earth and it doesn't matter what religion the individual belonged to while on earth.

Love is the path, recognition of God is the gate to the Kindgom of God or the ultimate goal of the spirit. The human being who thinks he can ascend to Paradise whithout the regonition of God, Jesus and Imanuel is making a big mistake.

Deep Sight:

It may equally be asserted that you blaspheme when you assert the human authour of the Grail Message to be both the Son of Man and the Holy Spirit - especially considering that in endorsing the doctrine of the Trinity, despite your protestations and denials to the contrary, you unwittingly equate the human writer of the Grail Message to Almighty God. If THAT is not blasphemy, I do not know what else is.

Here you are just making accusations. I never equated the writer of the Grail Message to Almighty God. I never said that Abd-ru-shin is equal to God.
Abd-ru-shin warned against all sorts of personality cults in His message where He gave all the glory to God. The Grail Message made it clear that only God should be worshiped. Abd-ru-shin never asked anybody to worship Him.

Deep Sight:

Usually I don’t judge people or leaders of religions but it is my perception that Abd Ru Shin is a human spirit, and consequently cannot lay claim to Divinity.

If this is your honest perception then you have not done anything wrong by asserting it. I never asked you to assert what are not your perceptions.

But as you enjoy the privilege of asserting your perceptions, allow others the same privilege too. Don’t quarrel with people just because of their perceptions.

Deep Sight:

How do we know that the writer of the Grail Mesage has not hi-jacked the self same prophecy for himself in the same fashion as many others have done before and after him - presenting vastly similar teachings as he did as set out in the OP.

I assert my perceptions. Its up to you to do you own investigations and have your own perceptions. Yours doesn’t necessarily have to be in accord with mine.

Deep Sight:

It will not do for you to simply state that "you have come to such and such recognition about his identity" - EXACTLY because the followers of O.O. may just as well also state that they have also come to such and such recognition regarding his identity.

If that is their recognition, then they have the right to assert it, just as I have the right to assert mine. I don’t quarrel with members of the brotherhood, neither do I condemn them. I gave Agi-tuedo my perceptions becuase he asked for them; I am obliged to tell him, especially knowing that he is a serious seeker who is not just asking to create religious conflict.

Deep Sight:

PLEASE DO PARDON ME MY INQUIRIES: It simply remains bizzarre for me to observe you tacitly condemn others for the EXACT SAME blasphemy that you have appropriated to the founder of your own religfious sect - namely - the presumption of divinity.

Please show me where I condemned them. What I perceive as blasphemy may not be perceived as such by another. Since people have different spiritual developments it is only expected that people should have different perceptions.

I do not condemn anybody for their perceptions or beliefs; I only offer mine where it is asked for. Agi-Tuedo asked a genuine question, I perceived that he was not asking for the sake of religious battle as many do in this forum, therefore I gave him my honest perception.

Why you have a problem with this beats me.

Deep Sight:

I did also note that you have avoided this query -

Because I perceived that it aimed at starting religious battles or comparing sects against sects. I try as much as I can to stay away from such. I don’t condemn people for their beliefs; as long as the individual is honestly convinced of what he is preaching, that is right for him.

The most important thing is honesty; as long as the individual is honest with himself, even if his beliefs are wrong at the moment if he remains truly honest in time he will mature to a better recognition or the recognition of the Truth.

Cmanforall:

@justcool
I can't thank you enough for the link & I know sometimes it is tiring regurgitating the same answers over again,but bear with us.I pray God continues to give you strength.Thanks

Thanks a lot. I wish you strength and God's guidance too.

enitan2002:

Justcool,

you've said it all.

Hi enitan2002.
Longest time! Thanks and remain blessed.

agi-tuedor:

@justcool

I understand perfectly what you said. It explains why adherents of certain religions can "project themselves" into planes and see whatever they expect to see.
You said Abd-ru-shin was not speaking of Baha'Ullah, you then is he speaking of? Himself, probably?

@ agi-tuedor
Thanks again for your questions. Refer to my reply to Cmanforall, above, and you will see why it will not benefit us for me to shear my recognition of who the son of man is. Coming to this recognition yourself is a great and joyous experience that will change your life; I will not deny you this experience. Just read the Grail Message with and alert spirit(intuition) and pray to God for guidance.

agi-tuedor:

I was listening to a radio broadcast by Brotherhood of th Cross and Star, the speaker spoke extensively on this subject, even quoting Oskar Bernhardt (Abd-ru-shin), but concluded that the founder of the Brotherhood is the fulfillment of the prophecy. Now, from what you've explained, the prophets themselves allowed vanity to replace truth. In the case of O.O (founder of the Brotherhood), according to the speaker, he did not proclaim himself thus. It had already been prophesied over five hundred years in his community (somewhere around Calabar, Nigeria) that a great personality will be born there. When he (O.O) was born, there was expectional miracles through him, even as a baby, like a blind woman recieving sight immediately after holding him, as so much more. What do you have to say about this?

I have read where members of the Brotherhood of the Cross and star state that O.O. is the fulfillment of Abd-ru-shin prophecy concerning the son of man; and I can categorically tell you that they are wrong. Abd-ru-shin was not speaking about O.O. You don’t need to listen to their words very keenly to perceive that they do not understand the Grail Message. They, the brotherhood of the cross and star, would seize any prophecy they can lay hold on, even the ones they don’t understand and try to use it to validate the blasphemy that O.O is the son of man.

Usually I don’t judge people or leaders of religions but it is my perception that O.O is a human spirit, and consequently cannot lay claim to Divinity.

The almighty did send many called ones to Africa, and even Nigeria; as usual most of them failed but O.O is not one of the prophets sent by God, and this is my perception. It is my perception that O.O is not a prophet.

Indeed, almost in all tribes across Africa, a called one was sent to prepare the people for the son of man. Some of them became great politicians who fourth for the material and political benefit of their people. But they failed since they didn’t recognize the spiritual part of their calling. I will not mention names, but among the Yoruba was one who fulfilled his mission. But unfortunately, the ones that succeed in their missions end up living almost in oblivion or obscurity, because modesty does not allow them to draw attention to themselves, unknown and uncelebrated by the masses who only recognize the failed ones as heroes.

First, you and I were not there when O.O was prophesied over five hundred years ago. How do you know this alleged prophesy ever happened? Even if it did happen, how do you know that it was not a prophesy concerning another person that the brotherhood high jacked, just as they High jacked the prophesy of the son of man? And also, being prophesied over five hundred years ago does not make one a prophet sent by God. Many people claim that Nostrademos predicted the birth Hitler; does this make Hitler the son of man?

It depends on what you mean by miracles; if you tell me the particular miracles than I can tell if it’s possible or not. It is possible to heal the sick by laying hands on them; this does not necessarily mean that the healer was a servant of God or sent by God. This actually has a lot to do with the health of the healer or the condition of his physical body, and non physical bodies. Some people are gifted with physical bodies that direct energies or channel healing energies which already exsist in creation to a sick person. This has nothing to do with being a servant of God or being a prophet. Read about Rasputin, the Russian healer. This is a totally different way of healing. Just as some people poses physical bodies that allow the soul to detach or experience the non-physical even while awake. These have nothing to do with being righteous or being sent from God.

Humans have an unhealthy fascination about such abilities which are in reality not spiritual abilities but owe thier existence more to the physical body, or the astral body. Abilities like clairvoyance, astral travel, being able to see the future and etc. These abilities do not necessarily denote an advanced spirit or a called one.     

agi-tuedor:

One more thing. The human beings on earth are known to be naive and gullible, wouldn't we, in order not to fall, be spared of impostors in this important of all events? (Assuming they are really impostors).

I don’t know what you mean, but it doesn’t lie with God to spare us impostors. It lies solely with us, mankind, to spare ourselves of impostors. God will not take away our free will because it is an intricate part of our spirit. A man can use his will however he chooses but he remains responsible for the consequences. A man can decide to be a swindler, he can decide to claim to be God and lead others astray; but rest assured that he can never escape the consequence of this deception.

Our duty is to weigh everything we hear with our intuition; put them to the most inflexible scrutiny. Keep our ability to perceive intuitively alive and pray to God, always, for guidance. One who proceeds this way (watch and pray) will not fall in any such temptations.

Cmanforall:

@justcool
Has the son of man come or are we still waiting?is he's coming physical or spiritual?

@Cmanforall
Thanks for your questions.
It is very important that each individual recognize the son of man. Giving you my own recognition will not help you; at best you can only accept it blindly. And blind faith is wrong; one should only accept what he/she has experienced to be the Truth.

Many people believe that Jesus is the son of God just because their pastor, their parents, their friends or their bible said so. These people are as good as having not recognized Jesus. There is a difference between "who do men say that I am?" and "who do you say that I am?" The second question is very deep and it carries a lot of weight because it deals with your own recognition and not what you hear from others. It can be rephrased to, "who have you recognized me to be?"

And such recognition can only come from God, provided the individual asking still has oil in his lamp, i.e. provided is spirit is still alive within him. And not like the five foolish virgins who forgot to put oil in their lamps and consequently missed the bridegroom.

The oil represents an alive spirit which like on oil in a lamp can burn to give off light. A spirit alive can light up the interval’s life through the intuitive perception, allowing the individual to see what others would not see.

All you need to do is to be filled with the desire to live in accord with the laws of God; and pray to God to open your eyes to the recognition of the son of man. Also read the Grail Message. If you read with an alert spirit while praying for God’s guidance, your eyes will be opened to the recognition of the son of man.

His coming is both physical and spiritual; while His mission is spiritual, He will incarnate physically on earth like Jesus.

The Grail message answers clearly, all questions concerning the son of man, His coming and His mission.

Cmanforall:

If physical how will you know he is the one&how different is his mission from JESUS.no offense intended.

While the Grail Message answers all these questions, I will just throw a few wards to you, in order to appear rude or snobbish; I will invite you to read what I wrote earlier on this forum about the son of man:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-173782.0.html#msg2830536

Read the Grail Message, for what I wrote is only my perception. For a more comprehensive view and a better understanding read the Grail Message for yourself, and base your view on the Grail Message.

Thanks and remain blessed.

Deep Sight:

Is it really realistic to speak about "reduced pressure of the power of God" - - - - for if you reflect closely, does this not amount to view God as finite.

For any element to have gradations, more so reducing gradations of its power, that power must have a finite degree which begins to reduce to lesser degrees.

No infinite element or infinite power can be conceived in these terms. No "reduction" is conceivable in infinity.

No. It does not amount to God being finite. We are talking about the pressure brought about by the power of God and not God Himself. It is this pressure that slackens and not God Himself.

Also consider, the fact the power of God can be separated into gradations is a testament to the infinity of this power and God. Consider, infinity means that which can be divided infinitely without arriving at an end. Even in mathematics, if you divide infinity you arrive at infinity or undefined.

While God and His power are infinite, only a potion of this power enters creation. Creation is a piece of work, and thus finite. Nothing infinite can be contained in a finite work; therefore the infinite power of God cannot, in its entirety, be contained in creation; creation can only make use of a potion of this power.

When we talk about gradation; it is not the power of God that is divided as such; gradation arise from the fact that creatures, being finite, cannot make use of an infinite power in its entirety and all at once. Each creature can only take as much as its nature allows it to take from the power of God. The power of God contains all that is and all that can ever be thus infinite; the spirits, being spiritual can only make use of the spiritual components of this power. The animistic can only make use of the animistic components of the same infinite power of God. Consequently, it follows that that which proceeds from the spirits or that power which passes through the spirits is only spiritual power which can be viewed as a gradation of the power of God.

This power of God has not been divided as such; it remains whole and inexhaustible.

To go deeper and deeper into this issue. It is my perception that the power of God which is infinite remains only with God and in God. God is the ultimate and only power. Power exerts pressure; even science can prove this. This pressure is a result of the power and not the Power itself. What we call power in creation is actually the pressure exerted by the power of God. Just as Light radiates, so does Power produce pressure. Only God is Light, Power and Life; these things are one in God, and they do not exist outside of God as such.

Therefore I was using the expression ‘power in creation’ only very loosely, for in reality there is no power in creation. By Power I mean the ability to produce energy, and this only exists in God. In creation what we observe as ‘power’ or ‘being powerful’ is just the ability to use or utilize energy. Thus the more energy a thing uses over time or the more energy that passes through it, the powerful we say the thing is. We say that the primordial spirits are powerful than human spirits because the primordial spirits uses a higher energy(the primordial energy) and thus produce more powerful works than the human spirits can.

But power actually(the ability to create energy) lies only with God. His is the Power and this Power is infinite.

In-order to explain further, I will offer my perception as to what energy is since I mentioned the word energy which should not be confused with power. What we call energy in creation, or outside of God, owes its existence to the radiation of God. The pressure resulting from the Power of God pushes the radiation, or propels the radiation. In the vicinity of God, this pressure is enormous and forces everything(the radiation) to go in a straight line. Going very further away from the vicinity of God, this pressure slackens and consequently deposits results from the radiation. Everything in existence owes its existence to this deposits that result of the radiation of God due to the slacking of the pressure that propels this radiation. First the substances that formed the Divine substantial plane separated or deposited off the radiation at the first slacking of pressure or cooling off. Components of the radiations that were not strong enough to take on form circulated at the border of the Divine substantial plane filled with the urge to be created or be formed. At this point the pressure is still too great that nothing wrong or against the will of God can exist.
Then with the words “Let there be Light” God allowed this radiation to proceed even further than the Divine substantial plane, resulting a region further away from God and thus a region of less pressure. In this region of less pressure the first and the strongest component of this unformed radiation, or the Primordial spiritual component of the radiation was able to take on form; this resulted the Primordial Spiritual planes, along with the Primordial spirits, Primordial beings, angels and etc. Then this process continued further and further as the radiation proceeded further away from the Light until the pressure has been slackened enough for the worlds of matter to separate from the radiation or be deposited off the radiation. There is no need going into details since you are already familiar with the process. Just like a homogeneous bowl of hot soup separates into components as the soup cools off, so did the components of the radiations of God separate and formed planes as the radiations moved further and further away from God and cooled off.
What we call energy are actually these deposits that resulted from the radiation of God due to the cooling off of the radiation, a cooling off brought about by the slacking of pressure. This substance, the primordial spiritual substance that first deposited from the radiation of God is the source of all energies in creation. Thus the spiritual substances are nothing but condensed spiritual energy. This energy permeates the entire creation; it is the little spiritual substances that stream out of the spiritual realm that give rise to energy in the planes lower than the spiritual. The core of every substance, even physical substance, is spiritual energy or spiritual dust. We call this energy physical energy, when the spirit dust carrying the energy, in addition to other coverings also gets covered by physical matter. This gives rise to the basic physical substances that make up the atom. Energy itself is actually spirit.

Therefore what slackens is the pressure exerted by the Power and not the Power itself, which resides only in God.

Deep Sight:

And not subject to the laws of God? ? ?

Does this abrogate the "perfect" laws of God as applicable to subsequent creation?

Is it not STILL those laws that rule even subsequent creation?

If so, why are those laws unable to deliver a "perfect" subsequent creation. . .or are those laws imperfect?

Like I said earlier, subsequent creation is subject to the same Primordial laws of creation that governs primordial creation. But due to the nature of subsequent creation the laws operate or manifest slower. Each manifestation is adapted to the nature of the specie concerned.
I will give you an example, perhaps you can do does little scientific experiment yourself:
Take three transparent containers and fill each one with clear or transparent liquids of different viscosities. You can put water in one, clear oil in another, gasoline in the next.
Now put the containers next to each other and in a dark room direct the beam of a flash light through the containers. You will notice that the light refracts differently upon entering each container. What does this tell you?
The speed of the light is adjusted to the density of the liquid that it is passing through. It is the same beam of light that is passing through each container yet it manifests differently in each depending on the nature or density of the liquid in the container.

The same way as the speed of a ray of light passing through different liquids changes to the density of the liquids; so does the laws of creation, which manifests in all the planes of creation manifest differently, in speed, depending on the density of the plane concerned.

Density causes obstruction; this even earthly science has observed. Granted the laws still manifest; and are still perfect; but their speed is reduced, adjusted to the nature of the plane concerned. A quick example: In Paradise action and reaction are one. Once a decision is made the reaction becomes evident right away. But on earth the reaction(karma) may take years or even centuries to return to the person who made the decision.

The developing human spirit need the slow down of the process so that it can catch up; have sufficient time to way and examine his decisions, and learn from his mistakes. All these things will not be possible for the spirit germ in Paradise because the spirit germ is not able to summon enough pressure and motion within itself to counter balance the pressure and speedy motion of events in paradise. The spirit germ is just too weak to make a decision or awaken in such an environment, the pressure is too much for it to swim in; hence it needs a place of less pressure to allow it to awaken.

Swimmers do not learn to swim in deep oceans of fast current. Their undeveloped abilities are not enough to deal with the changes of the deep and fast ocean. They start in a pool which has no current or in a river/ lake of very slow current. Only such slow currents will allow them to develop their abilities so that one day they may be able to deal with the ocean.

In every school, the process being learned is slowed down during the teaching process so that each student can catch up. Also in schools the opportunity to repeat is given to the students. But in the job these opportunities are not given; in some jobs little mistakes can result in the death of the individual. A pilot can make a thousand mistakes during flight simulation; but in the cockpit of a real plane he is not allowed to make mistakes.

The world of matter is a school for the human spirits. Opportunities to repeat are given to the spirits through reincarnation. Just as not all students succeed in a school; not all human spirits succeed in subsequent creation.

When I said subsequent creation is subject to the will of man, what I mean is that the will of the spirits causes pressure in every substance or specie below it, with this pressure the spirit can mould these substances. Thus the condition of subsequent creation becomes what man wills; if man’s will is in accord with the will of God, subsequent creation will flourish and become like paradise, but if mans will is evil, so will his environment(subsequent creation) be. If you had followed my explanation in this post about the slacking pressure of the power, you can deduce why the will of man rules in subsequent creation.
The pressure is so reduced in subsequent creation and man, having originated from a world of stronger pressure, carries a will which is stronger than all in subsequent creation because this will is spiritual, or comes from the spirit germ. Although the spirit germ is too weak to awaken in paradise, its will has a very strong affect on matter. But the post powerful and the everlasting, even in the world of matter, remains the will of God. Although due to the slackened pressure its effect is slowed down, allowing the will of man to be realized; but in the final analysis, the will of God reigns. All alien wills are only temporally.

Imagine a current of water; imagine a river that started on a hill, falling down to make a water fall. At the vicinity of the source, where the river is pouring down as a waterfall, it is impossible to swim against the currents. No matter how strong a man is, he cannot swim against the currents of a waterfall up to the hill. But further down where the ground is level, the current reduces. It can reduce to an extent that even a child can swim against it. Therefore at this part of the river, the swimmer can decide which direction to swim; he can swim against the currents, across it, or with it. But if he continues to swim against this seemingly very weak current, in time he will become tired and exhausted, then the current will carry him along. Finally the seemingly weak current wins.
Creation can be liked to this river. Close to the source, at the water fall where the currents are too strong represents the vicinity of God where the pressure of His power is too enormous to allow an alien will to arise.
At the part of the river where the ground is level and the current is seemingly weak could be likened to the worlds of matter.
The strongest and most able fishes are found close to the source because they can swim in such fast current. These fishes represent the beings in the planes of the vicinity of God. The laziest and slowest fishes are found at place where the current is slow, these fishes represents the human spirits in subsequent creation.
Also close to the source where the current is strong and fast, conditions are better, the water is cleaner, has more oxygen and etc. At the place of slow current the water of the river is often stale and polluted.
Now compare this analogy with conditions in creation.

Also a fisherman in a canoe can direct his canoe to what ever direction he will; the seemingly weak currents at this part of the river will allow him to do this. But in the finale analysis, for him to survive in river, he must learn to make use of the currents and go along with them.

This fisherman in a canoe can be likened to the man, and the canoe can be likened to represent man’s environment or subsequent creation.

A good ferryman man can travel vast distances with the least effort, because he knows how to adjust himself to the current and let the current carry him along. This is all the human spirit needs to do; he only needs to adjust himself aright, and the laws of God will carry him, with neither delay nor hast, he will achieve spiritual maturity or fruition. The currents of creation are carrying everything towards fruition.

At the point when mankind out lack of mobility entangled themselves on the river, completely blocking the way for those willing to flow with the current. If God hadn’t intervened, in time even those with good volition would loose faith and weary in the face of constant blockage and sultry atmosphere. They prayed to God for help, and wherever one exists who can still be helped, God will help; so God in His great love sent a part of Himself-Jesus.

He was like a catalyst thrown into subsequent creation, His existence in subsequent creation speeded up the river current. Destroying the blockade set up by the spiritual highwaymen, so that those who wished to could find their way back.

But towards the end, God gives does an act of grace; by allowing a part of Holy Will to incarnate into subsequent creation, He speeds up the current of the river. At this point all that was hidden is washed to the surface. All that is rightly adjusted to the current will achieve their goal and all that impedes the currents will be mercilessly forced to bend or brake. That which stands in the way is destroyed, thus making way for righteous.

Parsifal is the waterfall through which these currents enter into the river of creation; or Parsifal is a giant turbine through which water flows into creation, giving rise to currents which although very strong at His vicinity, slacken at the furthers border or subsequent creation. At this period of grace, Parsifal appears at the place where the current was hitherto weak, at subsequent creation. A great turbine is put at this part of the river, forcing the river current to speed up till all that obstructs the movement is destroyed. At this point the ferryman swimming against the current, will be confronted by an enormous impetuses to turn around, the tubule may cause him to loose grip of his boat and sink into the abyss if he refuses to change. These events will also be evidenced on nature, as this impetus will cause turbulence where it meets resistance. Volcanoes may erupt, giant tornadoes may appear, or rivers may run blood; as it once happened with Pharaoh of ancient Egypt when he tried to check the impetus. Or as it happened during the world wars and is still happening today. This is the time of tribulation which will result in the spiritual death of many, and also the salvation of many.
It is both a blessing, a grace from God; and a curse, a period of grate tribulation. It all depends on how the individual adjusts him/herself to the powerful currents from on high. The currents will be so intensified that subsequent creation would no longer be at the mercy of the will of man. Man loses his ability to rule in subsequent creation, where everything will be directly subjected to the will of God. The currents will be so strong that all that is evil will be not be able to exist anymore. The day of the much awaited period of peace dawns. As it was in the beginning so shall it be in the end.
Parsifal is synonymous with the son of Man: through Parsifal and out of Parsifal arises, Imanuel, the much awaited son of man.

Deep Sight:

This is not apt in the least because a house is itself already a physical structure.

A thought, on the other hand is not a physical thing: and the very words of the authour of the grail message, to which you ascribe authourity, lend credence to that when it speaks of the "ethereal form of a generating thought" - showing clearly that the ethereal forms are NOT themselves the generating thoughts.

@ Deepsight,

I have offered my perception, to the best of my knowledge, as much as I can on this issue. If what you said above makes sense to you then stick to it. I am not here to force my perceptions on people; neither do I claim any authority. I only offer my perceptions for you to consider, accept or reject. My joy lies in offering my perceptions, and not in your acceptance or your rejection of it.

I believe that I have treated the issue you raised above; but it seems what I said did not make sense to you.  I appreciate your honesty in pointing out what you don't understand; so my dear friend, feel free to discard my perceptions above if your conscience allows you. Always hold fast to what your spirit has perceived to be true, because this is the only thing that can help you advance; not what justcool said. I maintain the Grail Message as the ultimate authority, so if your perception of it differs from mine or if you think that my perception is not consistent with the Grail Message, then hold on to yours.

No matter what our perceptions may be (whether right or wrong), as long as it is the best that we can honestly produce at that stage, then that perception is right for us at that stage. Even if a particular perception is wrong, only by living or experiencing it thoroughly would the individual graduate to the realization of the right perception. Thus the most important thing is honesty; only this guaranties that we will arrive at the right perception in the end.

You see why it is fruitless to quarrel over religion, faith, spirituality and etc. What is right for one now may not be right for the other at the moment.

Therefore, if you honestly believe that your perception is the correct one, or if you have experienced it to be the right one; then hold on to it and disregard mine.

Thanks and remain blessed.

@agi-tuedor

It is my perception that Abd-ru-shin was not a disciple of Baha'Ullah. Abd-ru-shin drew His message directly from God. Every message that comes from God is the same, and thus similar irrespective of who passed it down. The Truth comes only from God and it is not just similar but exactly the same thing; thus all religions are actually based on exactly the same thing.

The reason why we have opposing doctrines in the different religions of today is due to the fact that mankind tampers with the Truth and add things to it. Thus it is the things that man added to the doctrines that give rise to the difference in the doctrines.
If you remove the false things added to the message of Isiah; Mohamed; Buddha and etc, you will discover that these doctrines are basically the same thing, only expressed in a manner adjusted to the culture and maturity of the people it was given. All these messages in their pure form are completely in harmony with the message of Jesus who was the Truth Himself. Where the doctrines have not been tampared it, there we see similarities because these doctrines are the same thing, as I have expressed above.

So many called ones have been sent by God to different peoples of the earth; to prepare the people for the coming of the son of man, who would bring judgement. Isiah and so many others was sent to the Jews; Buddha was sent to the ancient Indians; Lao Tse to the ancient Chinese; and Mohamed to the Arabians. All these prophets spoke and some of them wrote about the coming of the son of man; even the son of God (Jesus) spoke about this coming of the son of man(the spirit of Truth).

The knowledge of the son of man and His coming is very important to the spiritual development of mankind; hence so many Prophets were sent to prepare mankind for this coming; Jesus in His parable of the ten virgins expressed the importance of being spiritually awake so as not to miss the son of man (the bride groom) when He comes. Darkness fought with all its might against this knowledge which is very important for mankind. Darkness fought against the prophets and often it succeeded lulling the prophet to sleep even before such a prophet realized his mission. Some start in purity, but succumb under the constant attack and temption of darkness. A prophet, set to prophesy about the coming of the son of man, may come to spiritual awakening, and may come to knowledge of the awaited son of man, and may start prophesying about the coming of the son of man; if he is not on his guard he may succumb to the temptation of believing the he(the prophet) is the son of man whom he spoke or speak about. Prophets offten become victims of their own vanity, even those that started in purity. It happens that often the prophet forgets that he is only a servant, he then places himself on the pedestal, and becomes the center of his prophesy. Darkness would always find a way to caress the individual's need for importance. Sometimes the prophet is so ridiculed and looked down upon by everybody, and in his quest to show his worth, gain respect and draw more followers, he would declare himself as the one(the son of man) whom he spoke about. And were the prophet so modest as not to allow the need for recognition or respect to drive him into the arms of darkness; darkness may approach such a modest prophet in the form of flatterers. Followers would throng around the prophet offering him gifts and trying to bribe him even with kind or flattering words. They would ask him questions like "Are you the one?" Just as they asked John the Baptist. Overtime and sometimes due to hardship the prophet may succumb to these flatterers and seek to draw attention to himself rather than the one whom he had been sent to prophecy. Most of the times this this is not intentionally done; the prophet begins to see visions where he is the saviour; in all honesty he may consider these visions as having came from God. Whitout knowing that, lost in the comfortable arms of darkness, his ego which has been so much flattered had cut him off from his connection with the light. His visions are nothing but figments of his inflated ego; he may go as far as calling himself the son of God or God himself!
Also, sometimes followers, in their need, kneel and stretch their hands to the prophet; praying for a miracle from the prophet. The prophet, out of sympathy or out of the pride of being a deliverer or a miracle worker, may stretch fort his hands to towards this throng who pray to him for his help. These prayers take on form in the beyond and approach the prophet, and if he allows these forms to attach themselves to his ethereal body. They will weigh him down, pushing him further into the realm of darkness and away from the Light. These prayers and the thought-forms of the throng around such a prophet will create and etherail environment or kingdom around him. An ethereal kingdom where the prophet is God or son of God; and this is the environment or kingdom that the prophet and his followers see in their dreams and visions. This prophet and his throng of masses may be caught up in this environment after the pass on to the great beyond.

This is why some genuine prophets feel the need to live in isolation of the masses. This why Prophets like John the baptise did not seek to live in affluence or in the confort of material things. He did not indulge in the flattery of the masses, neither did he seek the recognition or respect of the rich. Any weakness for anything material, be it money, need for respect or recognition, is like a hole in the boat of the prophet. Sultry currents of darkness will always find such holes and enter through it and consequently sink the boat.

Darkness will always look for an opportunity to lead people astray. Perhaps, this may have been the situation with Baha' Ullah; I don't know and I'm not judging him.
Baha'Ullah may have prophesied about the coming of the son of man, indeed this prophesy is found in almost all religions, but Baha'Ullah was definitely wrong if he taught that he(Baha'Ullah) was the son of man.

When Abd-ru-shin spoke about the son of man, He was not talking about Baha'Ullah. This I guarantee you.

davidif:

[size=20pt]THE REASON WHY THIS COUNTRY IS RUINED IS BECAUSE OF THOSE EVIL PEOPLE CALLED AGUIYI-IRONSI, S.L AKINTOLA, FESTUS OKOTIE EBOH, CHUKWUEMEKA NZEOGWU AND EMMANUEL IFEAJUNA. [/size]

@davidif

If you can show me what makes Aguiyi Ironsi evil, I will appreciate it. Please give me historical facts and not just assumptions and opinions.

Based on my investigations, I am of the opinion that Aguiyi Ironsi may have been one of (if not the only) worthy Nigerian leaders. Belwa may not have been bad too, but I rather not reveal my reservations about him. I am not very sure of the authenticity of my reservations about him, especially his leadership abilities; so in-order not to be unjust to the poor man, all I will say about him was that he was not a bad fellow; from my findings, Belwa was modest, also he spoke good English.

About Aguiyi Ironsi, I haven't found anything wrong that he did. Actually he sacrificed his life to avoid bloodsheed; if he were like other African Generals (Idi amin for example), Danjuma would definitely not have been able to kill him. Aguiyi Ironsi was killed due to his lack of brutality.

However, I understand your sentiments about the likes of Nzeogwu and Ifeajuna. A lot of Igbo's like to celebrate Nzeogwu; although I am proudly Igbo, I will never celebrate Nzeogwu as a hero.

That first coup, as well as all the subsequent Nigerian coups, was very unnecessary. The first coup occupies a very agonising position because it introduced the idea of coups in a country that was still very infantile. Also, contrary to what the tibalists say, that coup was not an Igbo coup.

But I digressed a little. I await your response on the issue of Ironsi. I trust your response to be devoid of assumptions and tribalistic sentiments.

Thanks

@Deepsight,

On re-reading your last post addressed to me, I noticed that I missed your point in the following question:

Deep Sight:

Secondly, everything within creation is the work of God – directly or indirectly. To state that some aspects of creation are not the direct creation of God, may be fair – as we have agreed in the past – but it is altogether unfair, and I dare say, amounts to shirking responsibility – to claim that GOD does not remain responsible for ALL of creation – direct or indirect – as it all issued from God. Again, this comes across as another unpalatable excuse – we cannot begin to conceive of a perfect God, who issues a perfect primordial creation which in turn begins to issue imperfect subsequent creations. That would only mean that the Perfect God and his perfect primordial creation were not all that perfect if the perfect primordial creation could begin to issue imperfect subsequent creations.

That is going round in circles and is absolutely unacceptable.

I do not think that subsequent creation is imperfect as such; although not comparable to Primodial creation in perfection, especially in the eyes of the human spirit. Subsequent creation is designed in such a way that the will of man, the human spirit rules in subsequent creation. It is designed in such a way that it allows anything that is willed by man to arise and take on form; thus it can allow evil to arise. This is as a help to the maturing spirit-germs, in that on seeing the forms or the effects of their decisions, they will recognize whether they have made the right decision or not.

Like all schools, during training or learning, the student is allowed to experiment. An example is a man learning to fly. During the time he is learning on the flight simulator he can make a thousand wrong decisions, he can experiment, make wrong moves and etc; the flight simulator shows him the consequence of each of his moves and decisions. Through this he matures, and when he is finally flying a real plane he will never make such mistakes.

Due to reduced pressure of the power of God in subsequent creation, the will of the human spirit rules; thus subsequent creation is subject to the will of man. This is why man can plunge it into ruins and why man can also make it a replica of Paradise. Also due this reduced pressure and the fact that matter is very dense and density causes obstruction, the laws delay in their operation in subsequent creation. The laws of God still apply here in subsequent creation, but their effect is delayed; this is also for the benefit of the growing human-spirit.

The reduced motion and the reduced pressure, gives the spirit time to reflect and mature. In an environment of high pressure, which entails very fast operation of the laws, like in Paradise, the spirit-germ would not be able to function like matured spirit do because the spirit-germ lacks the ability to withstand such high pressure and remain conscious.

The laws, which in Primodial creation operate as one and with immediate effect, slow down and split into various forms in subsequent creation due to the reduced pressure. This is also for the benefit of the developing spirit-germ. Just like a teacher slows down a process, and gives various examples so that the students can grasp the concept or the process. The developing spirit-germ cannot deal with the laws in their united form; but it can deal with their different manifestations as it matures. And soon it will mature to a stage where it understands that there are not many laws but one law, which is love. All that we call laws are nothing but the manifestations of the love of God. All the commandments collapses to the one commandment--Love

Also, subsequent creation no matter how perfected, can never completely satisfy the human spirit. The degree of perfection that matter can achieve can never be comparable the degree of perfection that spiritual substance can achieve. If we think of perfection as 'heat', each substance has a specific heat capacity; a thin foil will never be as hot a large piece of iron when both are heated. Thus each specie of creation has a specific 'perfection' capacity. The spiritual substance having separated from the radiation of God at the vicinity of God can bear more heat than the material substance, which separated much later, and at a further distance; consequently the spiritual substance can bear more perfection than material substance. Each specie of creation has a specific limit which cannot be bridged; just as water cannot burn as fast as petrol, or just as a piece of styrofoam cannot sink as deeply as a piece of iron can in water. Each substance is bound by the limits of its specie.

The human spirit being spiritual can only find ultimate satisfaction in Paradise, which is a spiritual place. Any perfection below what is achieved with spiritual substance or in the spiritual plane will remain unsatisfactory to the human spirit; by the same token, the spirit cannot conceive of the perfection of the planes above the spiritual. This is why the Divine plane will remain a perpetual mystery to the human spirit. The perfection of matter, no matter how much matter is perfected, it can never completely quench the spirit’s thirst for perfection. From this fact of life we can safely deduce that the Divine can never find ultimate satisfaction in creation, but will always long to return to its plane. This realization gives us a glimpse of the enormity of the sacrifice that the sons(Jesus and Imanuel) of God perform when they leave their plane of origin, which is the Divine unsubstantial plane, to deliver us help in creation. Each minute spent by Jesus on earth is a sacrifice of love, the enormity of which we human spirits can not conceive. Think about the son of man that is perpetually anchored outside the Devine unsubstantial plane. The melancholic and nostalgic longings that we human spirits feel on earth when we think about Paradise is not enough to lift a veil on what Jesus felt on earth.

To digress a little: When a human being sees nature as the most beautiful thing that can be, such sentiments which is exalted as an expression of maturity, is actually an indication that the individual's lack of spirituality. Just as lack of shyness in exposing ones unclothedness is viewed today as progress; this lack of shyness is actually an indication of lack of spirituality.

Now back to the issue at hand. As to why subsequent creation came issued out of Primodial creation. Subsequent creation was formed in answer to the prayers or the unconsciouse longing of the spirit-germs in Paradise, to be allowed to develop to human spirits; or to be created. Since the presure of the light in Paradise was too much to allow the spirit-germs to develop to consciousness, the only option left was to let them proceed further from the presure of the vicinity of God.
In answer to the longing of the spirit-germs, God allowed His servants, the animistic beings to form the worlds of matter into which the spirit-germs would incarnate and mature. The world of matter was formed as a shadow or a coarse reflection of the Primodial creations. The magnetic effects of the activity of the Primodial Spiritual beings at the summit of Primodial creation reached down into the worlds matter, pulling, carressing and awakening the spirit-germs into activity. Under the influence of this magnetic radiations, the spirit-germs can develop themselves, each modeling itself after the Primodial spiritual beings. Like salvation ropes, the radiations of the Primodial spirits, hang above the spirit-germs, pulling and awakening thier qualities.

So to summarize my points:
1) The laws of God which are perfect operate in subsequent creation, as much as they operate in Primordial creation; only that in subsequent creation, their effect (speed) is delayed.
2) The basic components of subsequent creation are perfect but the forms that need the mediation of the will of man to arise may or may not be perfect depending on the maturity of the spirit whose will gave rise to the form.
3) Subsequent creation is subject to the will of man; thus the condition on it depends on the maturity or lawfulness of the spirits living in it.
4) The human spirit being spiritual is subject to a higher degree of perfection and beauty, and will always find the worlds matter wanting in perfection and beauty.
5) Subsequent creation was formed as a school for the development of the spirit-germs who longed for development.
6) The magnetic or attracting radiations of the Primodial spiritual beings reach down into subsequent creation offering the spirit-germs all that they need for devlop themselves; in the way of attraction, the Primodial beigns pull on the spiritual qualities slumbering within the spirit germs caressing these qualities into activity.

I thought you had asked why God created a perfect Primordial creation and went on to create an imperfect subsequent creation; that’s why I answered that God did not directly create subsequent creation, which as a shadow of Primordial creation, was formed in the image of the Primordial creation by the animistic beings following the volition of the Primordial spiritual beings.

The moment the spirit germs incarnated into subsequent creation, it became subject to the will of these spirit-germs.

Thanks and remain blessed.

@Deepsight,

I have offered my perceptions on this issue and I think there is no need saying the same thing over and over again. I just offer my perceptions for you to consider and not to force them on you; so feel free to disregard them if you find them wanting.

However, from your replies, there seems to be misconceptions that arouse from my earlier post; perhaps I failed to put my points across in a more vivid way. These are the issues I will treat in this post--misconceptions that seemed to have arisen from my earlier posts.

Deep Sight:


I feel that there are severe problems and contradictions inherent in the foregoing, to wit –

1. You stated that the emergency did not result from God but from Man’s misuse of his free will. It find it very hard to accept that this is not something that God could/ would have apprehended from eternity. Indeed even mere man can decipher that so long as free will exists, the possibility of its misuse will also exist and as such it beats me to imagine GOD who exists outside of all time and space not apprehending from primordial eternity that this would/ may be the case and not already provisioning for such an eventuality such that when indeed the moment of need arises, it is said to be “an emergency. . .”

It can be an emergency from the point of view of mere men, but I feel that it dishonors and belittles GOD to imagine that there can be any such thing as an emergency from the point of view of such a complete transcendental deity. Indeed I feel, as I have already expressed, that the very idea is absolutely incompatible with any enunciation of the nature of divinity or transcendence. . .

Yes that’s what I stated; but perhaps emergency is the wrong choice of words. The situation was not an emergency at such looked from the side of God and His laws.

I had already explained earlier that God had apprehended such situations from the primordial beginnings by making missions of redemption permissible within His laws. Hence the situation is well accommodated within His laws which existed from primordial eternity.

The problems that you raised should not arise when one remembers that the mission of Jesus was permissible within the Laws of God. In that- in the mission none of the existing laws were changed.

If God hadn’t apprehended the possibility of such failure on the part of mankind then the possibility of redemption would not have existed within His laws. I.e. He would not have made provisions for redemption within His laws. But since such provisions exist; then the situation being an emergency on the side of God and His laws is totaly out of question.

Deep Sight:

2. Secondly, and more cardinally, you stated thus – “While God is perfect, and so are His laws; mankind is not perfect, mankind poses free-will which they use freely without interference from God.” –
THIS IS A MAJOR CONTRADICTION, dear friend, for I am at severe pains that you can state that mankind are to deploy their free will without interference from God[/b]AND YET state again that God [b]had to interfere by sending a part of himself to the earth!

By sending a part of Himself, God had not interfered with the free-will of man. Man still had the choice to decide on which road to take. The radiations of Jesus offered subsequent creation the power that it needed to continue being in existence; His words offered humans the possibility to find their ways back to Paradise. This is only possible if man accepts Jesus words and livein accordance with it. But the choice remained with man; he/she has to decide whether to live according to the teachings of Jesus or not. This is not interference with free-will.

Deep Sight:

I do need you to appreciate that this is not only a self-contradictory statement, but also belies and contradicts that which is resident within the Grail Message – to wit – that every human spirit bears strict responsibility for its fate and will receive its judgment as a natural consequence of the operation of the laws of creation. It is thus eminently strange to state that  -

a. God will not interfere with man’s free will AND YET –

b. God will interfere to save them from the consequences of the execrcise of that free will DESPITE THE FACT THAT –

c. The laws of God already make full provision for each exercise of will and its attendant results/ consequences.

I hope you can see that the three above – a, b and c – all contradict each other. Why will God not simply leave the laws of Karma/ retribution, attraction to take their flow and deliver the results and consequences? As I said, before, if he has to engage in a process of “severing” “parts” of himself and proceeding into creation personally to set things aright, [/b]that does not speak very well for the adequacy of the existing laws within creation, and this is not something that we can spin away through rhetoric such as “help is part of the law” – for the simple reason that such help would not be necessary if truly, as claimed by the Message, [b]God is strict and adamantine.

The incarnation of Jesus did not annul the laws of reciprocal action; each individual still has to reap what he/she has sworn. I have explained that the incarnation of Jesus did not interfere with the free-will of man.

How is offering somebody an advice an interference with his/her free-will? Jesus simply offered mankind an advice and never forced anybody to accept His advice.

Those who blindly headed towards destruction were still headed towards destruction; each must reap what he/she had sown. But Jesus with His words and existence on earth offered those who longed for Paradise a way out of sin, a way back to Paradise.

While I see what you sense as contradiction; I will take time to explain further, and show you that there is no contradiction. Now mark very well the following words: Each individual will still reap what he/she had sown despite the incarnation of Jesus. Saving the earth(and of course its finer environs, ethereal and etc.) was also manifestation of the law of reciprocal action and Justice of God. In that:

1) There were humans on earth/Ephesus who did not deserve to be destroyed in the premature destruction which the earth/Ephesus was headed to. Leaving these people (even if only one person) to be destroyed with the rest contradicts the law of reciprocal action because these individuals had not sown the seeds that yielded the destruction which mankind was headed to. Such would be wanting in Divine Justice, which is inseparable from Love. The Love of God would not allow any individual, no matter how insignificant, to parish undeservedly. So since not all humans sowed the seeds that caused the destruction which mankind was heading to, God would not let them parish or be destroyed with the rest; or let thier school(the worlds of matter)/Ephesus perish and deny them the opputunity for maturity. This will be tantamount to allowing a school to be destroyed, and hence depriving an innocent  child of the posibility of going to school, just because some bad students blindly decided to destroy the school. This wouldnt be justice.

2) These few good ones prayed for redemption. Lifting them out of the worlds of matter was out of the question because they were not yet matured enough to return back to Paradise as conscious human spirits; they still had a lot to learn in the worlds of matter. The only option left is to allow them the time that they deserved to spend in the worlds of matter; this is the only loving option. Apart from this, their prayer for redemption cannot go unheeded because "ask and it shall be given to you" is a law in creation, the law of reciprocal action. And God would not send an inadiquate help like a prophet; because at this point the only thing that could save the earth/Ephesus was an incarnation of a part of God; the power of the prophets no longer suffices.

3) By saving the earth or Ephesus from premature disintegration, the evil ones have not been redeemed of the consequences of their evil as you seem to suggest. Everybody that was headed towards destruction was still headed towards destruction, but in this case, rather than plunging the whole Ephesus(along with the good individuals) into destruction, the individual plunges only himself. Because the Divine radiation of Jesus speeds up everything, bringing everything into fruition. That which lingers in the dark reveals itself; and that which was slowly dying dies fast, leaving that which is slowly glowing to blossom fast. "All that is dead in creation shall be awakened, so that it may pass judgement upon itself" Everything hitherto slumbering awakens; the good ones become fervently good and the bad ones becomes crazily bad. Thus a separation occurs where naturally the dark ones had to let go of the earth, which then rises towards the light and becomes free. This is the judgment of God in all its naturalness and simplicity. This judgment naturally happens whenever Divinity comes down to earth.

Another way to put it is that darkness cannot stand before the Light. By Jesus incarnating on earth, Light is put on earth which dispels all darkness. This dismiss of dark currents from earth allows the earth to become lighter, it rises to its right path. Those humans who have sown destruction, who are so engraved in darkness will have to fall away along with the dark currents into the dark planes where they will reap the destruction they have sown.  This way the earth is saved and the dark ones that deserve destruction gets what they deserve in the dark regions where only dark souls exist; and in this destruction of darkness, no good one will be lost.

I don’t know if you notice the automatic and perfect working in this; as only the perfect, immutable, all-wise and adamantine laws of God can bring about. 

When I say "earth" I do not only mean the physical or gross material earth. I mean both the gross material and etheral parts, including thier subdivisions. Thus Ephesus.

Deep Sight:

No: but I will attribute imperfection to the car if the maker of the car has to intervene to stop the car from falling off the cliff despite the fact that brakes have already been provided in the car.

Now when the maker of the car is the same person who is the maker of the driver of the car the level of responsibility of the maker becomes much higher. He is responsible for the car as well as the driver and probably should have installed a radar system which would detect approaching and dangerous chasms and include an alarm system therein – if he has not done this and has to be bothered at the last minute to come to save the car and driver from the pit-fall personally, you must inescapably agree that the whole system he has created (car + driver) cannot in any wise be described as perfect.

The fact that a driver fell asleep and consequently failed to deploy the brakes does not mean that the brakes are faulty. Try suing Ford Motors about the imperfection of their car when you failed to engage your healthy brakes. Believe me your case will be thrown out of the court

Coming to the maker being responsible because He made the driver; you are inferring that since God created man, God is responsible for man's imperfections.

But God did not create humans on earth or in subsequent creation as such. Those that God created are the Primordial spiritual beings at the summit of creation; these are perfect and never found wanting so long as they remain in their plane which is in the vicinity of God.

Coming to man on earth or in subsequent creation, one can say that God created spirit germs in Paradise; or the spirit germs precipitated from the radiation of God in Paradise. As long as they remain spirit germs in Paradise, they are perfect spirit germs.

But in the process of developing from spirit-germ to human spirit, the spirit can be said to create itself(its personality) or develop itself based on its free-will. If the spirit develops itself in accordance with the will of God, it will one day become a fully consciouse human spirit and will recieve the gift of eternal life in Paradise since will be able to detach itself from matter and return back to Paradise. But if the spirit develops in a manner alien to the will of God, the developing ego is headed towards destruction, since it cannot free itslelf from matter and return back to paradise with a wrongly developed ego; the developing ego or parsonality will be destroyed, crushed back to a spirit germ which will then return back to Paradise as an unconcsiouse spirit-germ.

Man on earth, in subsequent creation, is a spirit-germ in the process of development; he was not actually created by God that way; hence God is not responsible for his imperfections and hence his imperfections cannot be attributed to God.

If you buy a car from Ford Motors; as long as you leave it the way Ford Motors made it, then any imperfections in it can be attributed to Ford Motors. But if you buy Ford Explorer and in the process of transforming it to a Ford expedition, you make it imperfect. This imperfection cannot be attributed to Ford Motors.

Deep Sight:

Sending help is incompatible with a perfect system.

The day Microsoft creates a perfect computer, all computer maintenance engineers will be out of jobs forever. So long as such engineers are still required, we cannot be said to have reached perfection.

No the above is wrong!! Perfection does not preclude maintenance and sustenance. After making the perfect computer, one still needs to plug it into electric channel. Man still has to use the computer. Being a perfect work does not imply being all sufficient. Only God is all-sufficient. All works need maintenance and sustenance. And creation is nothing but a piece of work' nobody claims that creation is independent and all-sufficient.

Deep Sight:

This does not square with the fact that it is a severed part of God that is said to rush through the planes in haste. . .agreed it was an emergency for mankind, but it is inconceivable that GOD would not have seen mankind heading in that direction from primordial eternity already. I hope you can see that once you accept as you have done that it was NOT an emergency for God, then the question begs – why the haste indicated in the message?

I have explained to you that Jesus was not in a hast as such; He did not take on the nature of those planes simply because He did not need to, and not that He did not have time to.

M_nwankwo has explained why it was necessary that Jesus did not take on the nature of those planes, i.e. why He was not thickly covered. The advantage, which He needed for His mission, was that His Divine unsubstantial core could shine forth more easily.

Deep Sight:

I think I have explained already that any intervention or help is completely incompatible with the idea of a perfect work. No perfect work can conceivably require any further intervention by the workman – regardless that the workman is said to deploy the same principles in his further intervention. The mere act of intervening alone, even if in accordance with the principles earlier deployed by the workman, is sufficient to show that the workman had not done a complete job. This is clear. What is he returning to do, if the work was already done, perfect and dusted? ? ?

First of; subsequent creation is an indirect work of God; this I have already explained and there is no need repeating my explanation as to why subsequent creation is not as perfect as Primordial creation. Man on earth is also an indirect work of God(God created spirit germs), as I have already explained. This is why Man on earth is so wanting in perfections and this explains why he needed help.

Saying that man on earth was created by God is like saying that Satan was created by God. God created Lucifer, Lucifer turned himself to Satan. There is a distinction here which carries a lot of weight, and which must not be overlooked.

There is a reason why in some scriptures, man is reffered to as adopted children of God. Reflect on the word adopted.

And I remember a scripture we used to read when I was a child, and it goes: "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name."

As a child I always wondered: If all men are children of God. Why do the ones mentioned in the scripture need to be given this right?

So the notion that all men are children of God, works of God and hence God is acountable for thier imperfection is a very wrong notion.

While I do not draw from the scriptures, I only used the one above to induce reflection, knowing that you are familier to those texts. I do not claim that my perceptions are in accord with the Bible.

Deep Sight:

I cannot work with this as I have no idea where prophets come from. As far as my very limited understanding permits, I view them as human beings. Ditto for Lucifer – I do not know anything about such a being, or whether it even exists as described. Maybe one day I will know, but for now it will be false of me to say that I do. So sorry, this is not something I can work with.

Okay. Point well taken.

Deep Sight:

I am surprised you will compare a permanent standing law which forms the basis for existence as a whole (and which is described by the Message as “adamantine”) to the visit of a personal being who enters and then exits creation at a specific time.

When do the laws of creation exit creation, or cease to apply to creation? Never.

The example is not apt.

Sorry if my example isn’t apt; it was meant to induce reflection. Laws do not exit or leave creation, what we call laws in creation are manifestations of the Divine will.

But this Divine will did not originate in creation; my point is that everything doesn’t have to originate in creation for creation to be a perfect work. Every work whether perfect or imperfect still needs sustenance and maintenance.

The fact that your physical body depends on the air that it breaths to remain alive does not mean that the body is imperfect as such. Just as the physical body breaths air in and out, creation depends on the power of God.

Deep Sight:

But remember that in this case you are not only the writer of the book, but the maker of the students, and you have provided every possibility within the school for students to learn. If indeed the school is a perfect school, you need not visit. If you are compelled to, the school could not be said to be perfect, this is clear.

You should look to the school – which is the world. In this case you are the maker of the school as well, the book, and the students. I hope you see reason in these terms. In each of the examples you gave - you would be the maker if the ENTIRE SYSTEM - which is what God is - and as such you should look to the perfection of the entire system

I have already explained to you that God is not the maker of humans in subsequent creation as such; humans in subsequent creation developed from spirit germs.

The same way, the school-the world or subsequent creation is not a direct creation of God; and imperfections found in it should not be attributed to God.

Deep Sight:

Whence did mankind arise? The same maker, no?

NO! Mankind did not arise from God; Mankind arouse from spirit germs.

Deep Sight:

I am sorry to say, but this above, which I have always read in the Grail Message, only comes across as an excuse: my deepest apologies for having to say so.

I do not believe it is apt to speak of such things as “at great distances from God.”

This is your opinion and you are welcome to live by it. You don’t have to apologize for having expressed your opinion.

Deep Sight:

I tell you that, I view it as an almost insulting excuse – and this is why: GOD is said to be OUTSIDE creation, entirely away from finite space and time which is creation. I do not know by what parameters anybody can begin to speak about which worlds are at “great distances” from God, indeed, I am not even sure that the concept of distance is applicable at all in such a context, once you refer to God.

Once again this is your opinion. I have a feeling that you view God as the totality of everything in exsistance; this view does not sit well with me.

I percieve God as different from the totality of exsistance. I pecieve exsistance as the radiation of God and not God Himself. God is beyound exsistance.

Deep Sight:

Secondly, everything within creation is the work of God – directly or indirectly. To state that some aspects of creation are not the direct creation of God, may be fair – as we have agreed in the past – but it is altogether unfair, and I dare say, amounts to shirking responsibility – to claim that GOD does not remain responsible for ALL of creation – direct or indirect – as it all issued from God. Again, this comes across as another unpalatable excuse – we cannot begin to conceive of a perfect God, who issues a perfect primordial creation which in turn begins to issue imperfect subsequent creations. That would only mean that the Perfect God and his perfect primordial creation were not all that perfect if the perfect primordial creation could begin to issue imperfect subsequent creations.

God did not issue subsequent creation. Subsequent creation could be likened to the shadow or a reflection of the primordial creation. Subsequent creation could come into being due to the activity of the Primordial spiritual beings.

"Let us make man in our own image and likeness," I wonder who is the "us" in the above verse; it cannot be God because God is never described as "us". God is one. A certain friend of mine always says, "Oneness of infinity"

Deep Sight:

Unless you will repudiate a great deal of what is in the gospels, it is a hard sell to state that Jesus of Nazareth has nothing human about him.

Jesus is a part of God(Divinity unsubstantaite) He bears nothing human or spiritual within him; and He has reunited with the Father, in that He had returned to the Plane Divine unsubstantiality. Nothing spiritual or human can ever unite with the Father, or enter the into Divine unsubstantaility.

I do not draw this from the Bible or the gospels. I draw, as you already know, from the Grail Message.

As always thanks and remain blessed.

Dear Deepsight

Deep Sight:

Justcool, what do you perceive to be "a complete mind."

God is a Complete Mind.

No human being is a complete mind, to the extent that there are things that are, and will always remain totally outside our minds.

There is however nothing in existence which may be accounted for outside the mind of GOD because GOD is a complete mind.

There can therefore only be "emergencies, contingencies and urgencies" for incomplete minds.

An emergency is an absurdity for a complete mind. For the complete mind that is GOD, it is absolutely inconceivable.

There is a reason that I deemed this an inconsistency in the Grail Message - and the reason is the fact that the Message emphasizes the completeness and accuracy of creation and the laws therein.

First of; I do not know what you mean by "complete mind" and whether it can be attributed to God since God is not a "mind."

The emergency did not result from God neither was it as a result of the imperfection of the laws of God. The emergency situation resulted from man's misuse of his free will. While God is perfect, and so are His laws; mankind is not perfect, mankind poses free-will which they use freely without interference from God. Would you attribute imperfection to a car just because the driver fell asleep on the wheel and was about to drive the car off a cliff?

The mission of Jesus goes to prove further the perfection of God and His laws; because despite the emergency situation that can arise out of man's misuse of his free-will, God through His laws can still send help to them on time.

The situation was not an emergency on the side of God and His laws, neither God nor His laws were threatened by the situation; the situation was an emergency only on the side of mankind who were speedily heading towards distruction, a destruction that they brought on themselves.

Deep Sight:


The Message makes clear that the inflexible Divine Will has already written adamantine laws into creation and as such these laws are complete and suffice to deal with all that rests in creation. Indeed the very idea of further divine intervention can philosophically and logically only point to ONE thing: namely that the work that was initially done by the Creator was not a perfect work.

Divine intervention does not mean that the work was not perfect from beginning; it would only mean so, if in the intervention, the hitherto existing laws were annulled, improved, or changed even to the slightest degree.

But in the mission of Jesus, none of the laws of creation were changed or annulled. The mission in itself is a fulfillment of the law, "Ask and it shall be given unto you."

If you consider the entrance of a part of Divinity into creation as an intervention, then you should consider the mission of some of the Prophets intervention too. Because some of the prophets issued from the Primordial spiritual and descended into subsequent creation for their mission. Also do you consider the mission of Lucifer such intervention too? Remember Lucifer issued from outside creation. There are many others who issued from above creation and yet sent to earth for a mission. These missions do not equate intervention on the laws of creation or annulment of the laws of creation because these missions are fulfilled in the law. If you consider every visit an intervention as such, keep in mind that even the laws did not originate in creation; all the laws issue far above Creation, in God Himself who is the Living Law. One can equally say that the laws which issue from God visit creation. Does this visit equate intervention? This visiting and exiting, the eternal giving and taking, is a part of the system and not as such an annulment or improvement of the system.

A man who sets up an establishment, a hospital for example, can every now and then visit the hospital. As long as in his visit he had not changed or annulled any of the hospitals laws and regulations, the visit does not mean that the laws and regulations of the hospital are not perfect and are inadequate.

If I write a perfect text book and give to a school. Some student out of mental laziness may not understand the text book and thus headed to failure. If out of love I decide to visit the school and teach these students, does this mean that book is not perfect? As long as in my visit, I did not change any of the things hitherto written on the book; the perfection of the knowledge on the book remains.

I will give another example: A dicey situation arises in an American city, the city is about to destroyed due to the lawlessness of some of the citizens who do not know the laws of the state or the American Constitution very well.
To help restore order, one of the writers of the Constitution, lets say James Madison, is sent from washington to the troubled city to teach the citizens the law or the constitution and how to abide by it.
Does this imply that the law was not perfect before James Madison was sent? No! It only shows that the law is so perfect and enough to combat the situation, if only the citizens would live by it.
And even if James Madison was never sent the law will still hold; only that at the end almost all the citizens of the city will have to be thrown into jail or executed.
Thus the visit of James Madison does not mean that the law was not perfect, neither does it mean that the system was not good enough to deal with the situation. It only means that James Madison loves the citizens of the troubled city so much as to want to save them from jail and execution. This does not mean that the system is inadequate.

Deep Sight:


For you very well know, and this you will not deny - that that which is perfect will not require further intervention, much less "urgent" missions of redemption. Such will only connote a most imperfect work - which I am certain you will not ascribe to GOD.

Yes! If only the intervention disrupts or annuls the existing order. But if the intervention ensues and abides by the existing order then it is nothing but a visit which does not mean that the work was imperfect.

Also reread your question! Because in that question lies the answer already. You said, "that which is perfect will not require further intervention, much less "urgent" missions of redemption." Exactly! You are right! And in this case what required the mission of redemption? I will answer for you--- Mankind.

And I have always maintenance that mankind is not perfect. Had they not misused their free-will, then the mission of Jesus wouldn't have been necessary.

It was not the laws of creation that Jesus came to save, rather it was mankind. Neither was it the work of creation that Jesus came to save as such; for even if mankind had been left to drive the earth to an early desolation, the material creations would still remain. The earth will return to its primordial constituents after desolation, only to remodel and be born again. The eternal circle of birth, ripeness, over-ripeness and decay will continue; only that so many human spirits will be lost in the process. That is-- the personality that they had developed so far will be lost and their spirits will return to being spirit germs, and return to paradise as such. This is the much dreaded spiritual death-the death of the developing ego.

Thus Jesus came to save mankind from spiritual death and not to save the laws of creation or to improve upon them.

Coming to your "perfect work," if by that you refer to the earth or subsequent creation; keep in mind that subsequent creation did not issue directly from God, and thus cannot be described as a direct work of God. Subsequent creation, having precipitated from animistic realm and formed by the animistic beings at a greater distance from God than Primordial creation, subsequent creation does not resemble the perfection of the creator as much as Primordial creation does.

The emergency situation that occurred on earth which necessitated the visit of Jesus cannot occur in Primordial creation. None can be found wanting in Primordial creation, which issuing from God embodies more closely the perfection of God.

Deep Sight:

The coming of the son of man - whom the message claims to be Abd Ru Shin - the authour of the Grail Message, was not hurried. It is described as a step-by-step process which evinces an order and co-ordination of the sort that one might ascribe to the Divine. However the notion that "there was insufficient time" [/b]with respect to the incarnation of Jesus is entirely at variance with the concept of a being such as GOD who is said to rest [b]above and beyond all time and space. Surely, you find this incongruous in the extreme.

The mission of Jesus was not hurried as such either. Jesus speedily passed through the planes because He did not need to take on the nature of those planes for His mission. The mission of Jesus was not the same with the mission of the son of man. The mission of Jesus involves saving the earth and mankind; the mission of the son of man, on the other hand, was more terrestrial. The son of man had to visit all parts of creation, and not just the earth; and the son of man had to battle one on one with Lucifer, a battle which resulted in the chaining of Lucifer. Also the son of man had to visit the Grail castle at the highest part of the ethereal realm, where Amfortas fell; and where, in place of Amfortas, the son of man had to install another knight to fulfill the duties that Amfortas failed to fulfill. For the son f man to deliver this help in this plane, He had to spend some time there to learn about the plane, about how darkness operates in that plane, or take on the nature of the plane like you said. Being issued from Divine unsubstantiality, He knew only light and had to learn about the weakness of the beings in the worlds of matter. All that is dark, and all forms of weaknesses are foreign to the Light.

So the mission of Jesus was not hurried in the sense that Jesus was not well quipped for His work. He wasn't equipped as much as the son of man because the son of man had more work to do. Even in the bible, it is hinted that the son of man would do more than Jesus, ie the son of man would judge the world while Jesus judges no one.

If I send two people(Mr. A and Mr. B) on an errend; Mr. A is to go to New york and deliver my message, Mr. B is to deliver my message to all the states in America. It naturally follows that Mr. B will have a bigger luggage, he will have to carry more clothens, for he will have to travel from state to state. He will need more equipment than Mr. A who only has to enter a plane, arrive at New York, deliver his message, and return. So when I say that Mr. A speedily travelled through the distances, and not equipped as much as Mr. B, it does not mean that Mr. A is inadequately equipped to deal with New York.

I can go futher into the details differentiating the mission of the son of God and the mission of the son, and why the son of man needed to taken on spiritual nature but this will deviate us so much from the topic.

I will throw in one more word for you to consider: The son of man is the man in God, the outborn son of God, the God-man; while Jesus is the inborn son of God, He remains in the Divine unsubstantiality plane bearing nothing human within Him.

Deep Sight:


For these reasons I find grave inconsistencies in the following from you -

You state, and i quote verbatim -

1. "God provided everything through his laws from the very beginning." - what then is the need for any further intervention?

2. "His laws give everything that minkind need and would ever need, from eternity" - what then is the need for any further intervention?

3. ". . .actually mankind need no extra help in-other to find their way back to Paradise or save themselves" - How can you state that mankind need no extra help and in the same breadth state that such help was necessary? ? ? Doubtless you know that the word necessary means that which is needed. So it is completely incongruous for you to state that {x} the help was not needed and yet {y} the help was necessary.

1. The need for further intervention(if you could consider the mission of Jesus as further intervention) is due to the failure of mankind. If the help of Jesus was not given to them, they may all have perished in darkness. Secondly, the incarnation of Jesus was a reciprocal effect of the prayers of those who longed to be salvaged. Since mankind had fallen so deep that the power of the prophets no longer sufficed to salvage them, God sent a part of Himself. God will never send an inadequate help. Mankind drove themselves to a point where only God himself could save them.

2. Same answer as above.

3. It was necessary to prevent mankind from complete annihilation but not necessary to make the laws better because the laws need no improvement. Mankind is not perfect in that they make imperfect use of their free will. Without the help, minkind may not have been able to find their ways out of the self imposed maze they got entangled in.

The necessity was on the part of mankind not on the part of God or His laws. Had mankind not failed, then the necessity would not have arisen.

Deep Sight:

4. "The Mission of Jesus was an extra help which God gave out of love; and which became necessary due to the failure of mankind" - That it would become "necessary" (despite not [/b]being [b]needed - your words) would have been known by GOD [b]from eternity [/b]no? Why then the "urgency" and "rushing through various planes and realms" because there was "little time?" Could it be that GOD's preparations were tardy? Surely that does not read right in the least.

I repeat:

It was necessary to prevent mankind from complete annihilation but not necessary to make the laws better because the laws need no improvement. Mankind is not perfect in that they make imperfect use of their free will. Without the help, minkind may not have been able to find their ways out of the self imposed maze they got entangled in.
The necessity was on the part of mankind not on the part of God or His laws. Had mankind not failed, then the necessity would not have arisen.


Also, God was not tardy, neither was Jesus rushing(as in coming down hastily and without enough equipment); Jesus did not need to tarry in those planes between the Divine and the earth, because He did not need that for His mission. Jesus needed only confront mankind on earth; that was His mission. A mission which He fulfilled victoriously. The fact that He fulfilled His mission victoriously goes to show you that He had all the equipments that He needed.

I would not call the speedy descent of Jesus into creation a hurrying or a running out of time; it was rather an urgent answer to a prayer. Every genuine prayer receives an urgent answer from above; this is contained in the law of creation.

Deep Sight:

This is internally inconsistent because we are made to understand that all the help man needs is already contained in, and woven into the laws of creation. Any help beyond this that needs to come from OUTSIDE creation (as Jesus is claimed to) can only mean that the laws WITHIN creation are not help enough, and as such are not perfect.

Dear Deepsight the above is not very logicall, in that Jesus was not an extra Law added into creation; neither was He an improvement of the the laws already in creation. He fulfilled the laws that already exists in creation so this does not mean that the laws were not good enough. It is rather a testament to the perfection of the Laws since even the son of God had to live under them.

Any help from outside does not mean that the laws within creation are not help enough; it only means that mankind had fallen so much that despite all the help within the laws of creation, mankind would not retrace their steps.

I will give you an analogy: It costs $10:00 dollars to survive a semester in school, and I send my son to school where I opened an account for him leaving $20:00 in that account. If at the middle of the semester, my son calls me and tells me that he is running out of money, does this mean that I did not put enough money in his bank? No. It only means that my son became extravagant, he became a bad manager of his bank account.

If I speedily go to the school to hand my son more money, does this mean that I didn't leave enough money in his account? No. It only means that I love my son so much that despite his extravagance I still give him help.

The laws already give everything that mankind needs and would ever need; just like my son's bank account had enough money for him to survive through a semester; but mankind, like my son in my analogy had become irresponsible, hence they needed more help.

Like I said earlier in this post, if you consider every entrance from above into creation to mean that the laws within are not enough help; then keep in mind that the laws themselves issue from far above creation and enter creation. Even power and energy all originate from outside or above creation, from God Himself who is the living Power. This power or energy enters creation through the Holy Grail, pulsates through all the planes, then leaves creation and returns back to the source in an eternal giving and taking, which is a manifestation of the law of reciprocal action. If you don't consider this entrance and exit of energy into and out of creation to mean that the laws in creation are not perfect; then you should not consider the entrance and exit of Jesus into and out of creation to mean that the laws in creation are not perfect. After all it is the same processes of entrance and exit of energy.

Deep Sight:

I do read every word you write. Do not take my disagreement with such words to be an indication that I have not read them. That would be similar to concluding that any person who disagree with you uses "his intellect only and not intuitive perception" or the claim of many Christians that those who disagree with them "do not have the Holy Ghost."

I apologise for assuming that you don't read my words. And I am very happy that you do read them. You are free to agree or disagree with me, I only share my perceptions.
I still honor and respect you, my intelligent friend, even when you find my perceptions wanting. Perceptions change with maturity; maybe mine would change as I mature, or maybe yours will change. We are all students in the great class of life. Your rejection of my perceptions will not interfer with my love for you, the love that I strive to have for all creatures. You remain a person who I love and respects as a brother and a friend.

As always, Thanks and remain blessed.

My dear Deepsight,

How you see inconsistency in urgency beats me. When is urgency incompatible with consistency? The urgency of the Mission of Jesus did not annul any of the laws of Creation. In the mission of Jesus all the laws of creation were fulfilled and none annulled. Speedily passing through a plane does not annul the laws of creation as there is no law that states that an individual must spend a long time in any planes of creations. If Jesus had magically appeared on earth without first traveling down through the planes between the Divine and the physical, then such would be an annulment of the laws of creation. But He did travel through the planes, only that He traveled fast so as to deliver His help to the earth on time.

If I make a journey from California to New York, as long as I traveled the distance between the two places, I have not annulled any laws of nature. I can make the journey in minuets, hours, days, or months; the speed of my travel does not annul the laws of nature. Nature permits rapid transition; as-long as in this transition distance is not abridged or omitted.

Also urgency(urgent response to the needy) lies in the laws of creation and actually is a manifestation of the Love of God. Wherever help is needed, the love of God inclines and delivers help on time or urgently. Every needy situation is considered urgent by the love of God which is ever watchful and ever ready to help. I will repeat once more: Wherever and whenever there is need, the love of God sends help urgently and without delay. When mankind drove the earth to near destruction, out of love God intervened. It was mankind that caused this state of emergency which necessitated urgent help because had minkind not been too engraved in sin, the mission wouldn't have been necessary. In the beginning God, through his laws, provided minkind with all they need to survive spiritually. So such urgency (as requiring the speedy incarnation of Jesus) or the emergency situation wouldn't have arisen of mankind had not drove themselves to near perdition or if mankind hadn't misused their free-will.

The few good ones on earth prayed to God for deliverance, and God sent help to them on time. At that time the earth had deviated so much from its right course and immersed so much in darkness that the strength of the prophets no longer sufficed to save the earth. The radiations of the prophets were not strong enough to penetrate the darkness and drive it away from the earth. Out of love, God who would not let any good person perish, sent a part of Himself(a part of His Divine essence), for the sake of the few who could save themselves in the light of Jesus.

The radiation of the Divine unsubstantial(Divine essence) innermost core of Jesus could penetrate through all the centers of darkness in the material realms and drive back the darkness that had taken hold of everything. It shattered all the strong holds of darkness and freed the earth; making it possible for mankind to free themselves too, if they want to. The individual has a free-will which God will not take away from him/her; he/she has to chose whether or not to accept the gift of Jesus. And by accepting Jesus, I mean living in accord with the words of Jesus; this is the only thing that can save the individual.

God provided everything through his laws from the very beginning. His laws give everything that minkind need and would ever need, from eternity; actually mankind need no extra help in-other to find their way back to Paradise or save themselves. The Mission of Jesus was an extra help which God gave out of love; and which became necessary due to the failure of mankind. Had mankind lived in accord with the laws, then the necessity and urgency of the mission of Jesus would not have arisen. This mission lies completely in the perfection of the laws of God which would not allow anybody to perish who can still be saved; neither will this perfection of the laws of God allow any genuine cry or petition for help to die away without giving help to the petitioner. For the sake of the few who could still be helped and in answer to their prayers, God sent His son. Rather than annulling the laws, this is actually a fulfilment of the law. For there is a law that: wherever help is genuinely needed and is genuinely asked for, God gives help through His laws. The sentence, "Ask and it will be given to you," is another way of expressing this law.

So to conclude and to answer your question:

Would GOD not apprehend such things from primordial eternity already?

God had already apprehended such things from primordial eternity by making urgent missions of help permissible within His laws. His laws have existed from primordial eternity and His laws permits and even promises help when and wherever help is needed. By providing, from primordial eternity, laws that allow such helps, God had already apprehended such situations from primordial eternity.

The emergency situation arose out of mankind's misuse of their free-will; had minkind not misused their free-will, no emergency situation would have arisen. Omniscience of God lies in His ability to know the consequence of each decision taken by mankind, He knows where every road leads. But God does not know before hand what decision mankind will take; otherwise mankind does not have free-will. Free-will(the ability to decide on what road to take) lies solely with the individual; this is why God will not automatically make everybody on earth righteous. Such would be tantamount to taking away their free-will; God can only send prophets and finally His son to warn, compel, and urge mankind towards making the right decision or taking the right road, the road that leads to Paradise. But finally the decision lies solely with the individual.


This is my perception and I hope it helps (if you take time and read it). Feel free to raise more concerns.

Thanks and remain blessed.

Idekeson:

Can someone briefly explain the idea in a concise manner? And also the Grail message if possible. Thanks a bunch.

@Idekeson,
If you have any questions about the Grail Message, open a new thread and we can discuss your questions.

Thanks.

saridon_p:

When I was 4 or almost 5yrs,I used to have memory of my existence in Saudi Arabia but I was Arab and grown up,I noticed that I lived in a Villa and was slain in thesame Villa with knife.I almost remember that I always travel with ship in the night with view of half moon.I also remember that I have kids but the funny part is that all the faces that I remember were grown ups and also arabs.Till like 12yrs old whenever I see an arab,I used to think that I know them somehow but I cant link it perfectly.I realised I was rich and that it was real and I tried as much as possible to reconnect my memory so that I can reconnect with the people but in the process,this thing will dissapear as if someone somewhere dont want me to understand.But I keep the ones that I could remember intact from then till now, Is this what you mean by re-incarnation.

@ saridon_p

What you described above is very possible. Perhaps what you were remembering as a child was your previous incarnation.

Many people have gone through such experiences, consciously remembering their past lives. An American who was killed in Peal harbor in his past live, consciously and accurately recollected that event and some other events in his past live.

Perhaps the interval between your present incarnation and the previous one was very short; or perhaps the experiences of your previous incarnation made such an imprint of your soul, these could be the reasons why as a child you still consciously remembered them.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Remain blessed.

KunleOshob:

@Justcool
So where or what does the grail message draw from? And how do you know that the source is credible?

@KunleOshob
It is my perception that the Grail Message draws its knowledge from God. Now tell me, is God not a credible source?

Thanks

Wishing my good friend a very happy birthday!!!