₦airaland Forum

My dear Deepsight,

How you see inconsistency in urgency beats me. When is urgency incompatible with consistency? The urgency of the Mission of Jesus did not annul any of the laws of Creation. In the mission of Jesus all the laws of creation were fulfilled and none annulled. Speedily passing through a plane does not annul the laws of creation as there is no law that states that an individual must spend a long time in any planes of creations. If Jesus had magically appeared on earth without first traveling down through the planes between the Divine and the physical, then such would be an annulment of the laws of creation. But He did travel through the planes, only that He traveled fast so as to deliver His help to the earth on time.

If I make a journey from California to New York, as long as I traveled the distance between the two places, I have not annulled any laws of nature. I can make the journey in minuets, hours, days, or months; the speed of my travel does not annul the laws of nature. Nature permits rapid transition; as-long as in this transition distance is not abridged or omitted.

Also urgency(urgent response to the needy) lies in the laws of creation and actually is a manifestation of the Love of God. Wherever help is needed, the love of God inclines and delivers help on time or urgently. Every needy situation is considered urgent by the love of God which is ever watchful and ever ready to help. I will repeat once more: Wherever and whenever there is need, the love of God sends help urgently and without delay. When mankind drove the earth to near destruction, out of love God intervened. It was mankind that caused this state of emergency which necessitated urgent help because had minkind not been too engraved in sin, the mission wouldn't have been necessary. In the beginning God, through his laws, provided minkind with all they need to survive spiritually. So such urgency (as requiring the speedy incarnation of Jesus) or the emergency situation wouldn't have arisen of mankind had not drove themselves to near perdition or if mankind hadn't misused their free-will.

The few good ones on earth prayed to God for deliverance, and God sent help to them on time. At that time the earth had deviated so much from its right course and immersed so much in darkness that the strength of the prophets no longer sufficed to save the earth. The radiations of the prophets were not strong enough to penetrate the darkness and drive it away from the earth. Out of love, God who would not let any good person perish, sent a part of Himself(a part of His Divine essence), for the sake of the few who could save themselves in the light of Jesus.

The radiation of the Divine unsubstantial(Divine essence) innermost core of Jesus could penetrate through all the centers of darkness in the material realms and drive back the darkness that had taken hold of everything. It shattered all the strong holds of darkness and freed the earth; making it possible for mankind to free themselves too, if they want to. The individual has a free-will which God will not take away from him/her; he/she has to chose whether or not to accept the gift of Jesus. And by accepting Jesus, I mean living in accord with the words of Jesus; this is the only thing that can save the individual.

God provided everything through his laws from the very beginning. His laws give everything that minkind need and would ever need, from eternity; actually mankind need no extra help in-other to find their way back to Paradise or save themselves. The Mission of Jesus was an extra help which God gave out of love; and which became necessary due to the failure of mankind. Had mankind lived in accord with the laws, then the necessity and urgency of the mission of Jesus would not have arisen. This mission lies completely in the perfection of the laws of God which would not allow anybody to perish who can still be saved; neither will this perfection of the laws of God allow any genuine cry or petition for help to die away without giving help to the petitioner. For the sake of the few who could still be helped and in answer to their prayers, God sent His son. Rather than annulling the laws, this is actually a fulfilment of the law. For there is a law that: wherever help is genuinely needed and is genuinely asked for, God gives help through His laws. The sentence, "Ask and it will be given to you," is another way of expressing this law.

So to conclude and to answer your question:

Would GOD not apprehend such things from primordial eternity already?

God had already apprehended such things from primordial eternity by making urgent missions of help permissible within His laws. His laws have existed from primordial eternity and His laws permits and even promises help when and wherever help is needed. By providing, from primordial eternity, laws that allow such helps, God had already apprehended such situations from primordial eternity.

The emergency situation arose out of mankind's misuse of their free-will; had minkind not misused their free-will, no emergency situation would have arisen. Omniscience of God lies in His ability to know the consequence of each decision taken by mankind, He knows where every road leads. But God does not know before hand what decision mankind will take; otherwise mankind does not have free-will. Free-will(the ability to decide on what road to take) lies solely with the individual; this is why God will not automatically make everybody on earth righteous. Such would be tantamount to taking away their free-will; God can only send prophets and finally His son to warn, compel, and urge mankind towards making the right decision or taking the right road, the road that leads to Paradise. But finally the decision lies solely with the individual.


This is my perception and I hope it helps (if you take time and read it). Feel free to raise more concerns.

Thanks and remain blessed.

Idekeson:
Can someone briefly explain the idea in a concise manner? And also the Grail message if possible. Thanks a bunch.

@Idekeson,
If you have any questions about the Grail Message, open a new thread and we can discuss your questions.

Thanks.

saridon_p:
When I was 4 or almost 5yrs,I used to have memory of my existence in Saudi Arabia but I was Arab and grown up,I noticed that I lived in a Villa and was slain in thesame Villa with knife.I almost remember that I always travel with ship in the night with view of half moon.I also remember that I have kids but the funny part is that all the faces that I remember were grown ups and also arabs.Till like 12yrs old whenever I see an arab,I used to think that I know them somehow but I cant link it perfectly.I realised I was rich and that it was real and I tried as much as possible to reconnect my memory so that I can reconnect with the people but in the process,this thing will dissapear as if someone somewhere dont want me to understand.But I keep the ones that I could remember intact from then till now, Is this what you mean by re-incarnation.

@ saridon_p

What you described above is very possible. Perhaps what you were remembering as a child was your previous incarnation.

Many people have gone through such experiences, consciously remembering their past lives. An American who was killed in Peal harbor in his past live, consciously and accurately recollected that event and some other events in his past live.

Perhaps the interval between your present incarnation and the previous one was very short; or perhaps the experiences of your previous incarnation made such an imprint of your soul, these could be the reasons why as a child you still consciously remembered them.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Remain blessed.

KunleOshob:
@Justcool
So where or what does the grail message draw from? And how do you know that the source is credible?

@KunleOshob
It is my perception that the Grail Message draws its knowledge from God. Now tell me, is God not a credible source?

Thanks

Wishing my good friend a very happy birthday!!!

@ seyibrown

seyibrown:
After accepting salvation, True Christians mortify the deeds of the flesh through the help of the Holy Spirit! They do not continue to live in sin! Christians who yield to the Holy spirit, bear the fruits of the spirit:

Galatians 5:22-23 (King James Version)

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Good. One must make effort, spiritual effort, to live in accord with the Will of God, or the Laws of God; and with the help of the power of the Holy spirit the individual can make it.

But he/she must not think that he/she should no longer make spiritual effort to live in the laws of God, or that righteousness is no longer required of him. He/she must not think that Jesus, with His death on the cross, had paid for his/her sins. The repented born again must not think that he/she is now above the laws of God; for no body is above the laws of God.

Even the angels and the archangles, and even the son of God Himself still lives under the Laws of God. Adamant stands the Laws -- Whats so ever a man sows, that he must reap; nobody can ever be above this law. God will not let His innocent son Jesus reap the sins of the world, sins that He never sowed.

Even Jesus is not above the laws of God, hence it is reported in the bible that He said,

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Mathew 5:17)


Thanks

@Jenwitemi

Jenwitemi:
You make it sound as if what you refer to as "God" is the "Sun".

The 'Sun' is not 'God'; neither is 'God' the 'Sun'. The sun is physical while God is Divine. But the relationship between God and creation could be likened to the relationship between the sun and the earth.

Just as the sun, through its radiation, provides the energy that sustains life on earth; God provides the energy and power for creation through His radiation; Creation owes its existence to this radiation of God. Just as the sun radiates to the earth, providing it with energy and vitalising it. God radiates His power into creation, keeping creation alive.

Every process above is repeated below; it is the same laws of God that control the entire creation, from Paradise to the earth. The manifestation only differ in-respect to the specie or plane involved. As above so below; as within so whitout.

Jenwitemi:
Mind you, many ancient civilizations did refer to the sun as God.

Yes I am aware of this. So many ancient civilizations in their quest to understand life and God came to the conclusion that the sun is God. The is a childlike conclusion which should have served as a stepping stone towards the realization of the true God. But the problem is that most of the ancients remained in that conclusion; they stopped making further progress and consequently never to got to know the true God.

Spiritual development is done gradually, from one step to another. Among the ancients, one of the first people to come to the realization of the true God are the Jews. And of course they developed gradually from a lower stage to this advanced stage.

When people say that God chose the ancient Jews as His favorite people; this is correct only in a certain sense. One has to keep in mind that it was the Jews who chose God first. God does not play favoritism; the Jews being the most spiritually advanced people at that time were able to go closer to God, in their inner life, and consequently receive more from God.

Any people who approach God as much as the Jews did in their spiritual advancement would receive as much as the Jews did from God. God does not play favoritism. The blessings are there for everybody, just like the sun shines for everybody. But the person who makes effort and stand in the sun would receive more sunshine that the person who lazily sits under the shade of a tree. An ignorant person may say that the sun favors the man standing under the hot sun more than the one sitting under a tree.

Jesus naturally had to incarnate among the Jews because they were the only people spiritually advanced enough to receive Him. This is actually a manifestation of the law of attraction of homogeneous species. The purity of the spirituality of the ancient Jews provided the road through which Jesus(the love of God) could incarnate on earth, God's love can only tread the path of purity.

Jenwitemi:
Are you sure that the base of your informations are not sourced from such civilizations, justcool?

My dear, I am very sure that the base of my information is not sourced from such civilizations. I draw my knowledge from a book called. "In the Light of Truth: The Grail Message." And the Grail Message does not draw from the ancient ancient civilizations niether does it draw from modern civilizations.

Remain blessed.

Dr Ferlie:
I give all gratitude to God.

I have been having difficulty understandng the process of human reproduction/birth. I know egg and spermatozoa are supposedly responsible for physical body formation and development. At what point, and how does the spirit germ/soul enters the process/embryo?

Thanks, as always

You are right, the spermatozoa and the egg are responsible for the formation of the physical body, in that they carry the genes which unite and give rise to the physical body. Science is right in its observation of the formation and development of the physical body. Like all processes in creation; behind them all stands the will of God.

The soul incarnates into the developing embryo at the middle of pregnancy. Once this incarnation is accomplished, the embrayo or the developing child starts to move. If a pregnant woman pays attention to the child inside her womb, she would notice that the child usually starts moving at around the middle of pregnancy. This movement of the child is evidence of the incarnation of the soul.

I hope this helps.

Remain blessed.

Dr Ferlie:
Justcool, Excellente!!! I have been blessed and enlightened by your explanation,
God bless you abundantly!!!

@Dr Ferlie
My dear friend, I am happy that my explanations helped you. Thank you for kindly wishing me God's blessings; I wish you God's blessings too.

Don't forget to extend your gratitude to the almighty, to Him belongs all gratitude. I am not worthy to be thanked.

Remian blessed.

@ITbomb

ITbomb:
justcool said he had seen his previous reincarnation, dr. Ferlie ask him if he too can see his. justcool answered that it is impossible,
I'm i lost?

My dear friend,
Please show me where I said that it is impossible for one to see his previous incarnations.
Thanks.

Cmanforall:
To be honest this Grail message adherents(J.cool&M.n)are making so much sense these days.I feel so much Truth when they speak but am a Christian.Anywaz thanks J.cool u'r really cool.

@Cmanforall,
I am humbled by your honesty. Thank you so much and remain blessed.

ludwigadagio:
Lovely discussion. Just cool, please connect with me on facebook. Name is Ludwig Adagio. Thanks

@ludwigadagio
Thank you so much. I am sorry I don't have a face book account; but I am thinking about one. At the moment Nairaland takes a chunk of my leisure time.

Remain blessed

Tonye-t:
justcool,

I think i find those words interesting, but will love asking some few questions if you dont mind.?

my dear Tonye-t,
You are welcome to bring any questions that you have. It will be an honor for me to treat your questions; I will gladly offer my perceptions.

Thanks and remain blessed.

Dr Ferlie:
I have the following concerns about re-incarnation and the ethereal realm:

Like you have experienced, How too can I be allowed to see my previous re-incarnation?

You do not need to do any thing extraordinary, neither to you need to practice any form of mysticism in-order to see your previous earth life.

There is a reason why people don't usually see their past incarnations. This is in-order to facilitate repentance or living in accordance with the will of God. If an individual who know about the law of reciprocal action, sees his past life and finds out that he was the emperor Nero. Wouldn't this individual lose all hopes of salvation? By the same token, some individuals, on seeing that they were very good in their past lives, they may develop an attitude. Imagine an individual who finds out that he was the person who helped Christ carry His cross; such an individual may develop an attitude or paherps think that God owe him big time, this attitude towards God may hinder his spiritual accent, for God owes us nothing.

Don't let curiosity drive you into the arms of the spiritual highway men, the mystics or occultists. Most of the times when people practice occultism, in-order to see their past lives, what they see is not really their past lives but products of their imagination.

Let the desire to live in accordance will the will of God fill you up, and any other thing that you need will be shown to you. If there are things in your past live, the knowledge of which will facilitate your spiritual development, it will be show to you. You don't need to practice mysticism.
The biblical saying, "seek ye the Kingdom of God first and everything else will be added on to you," is a very valid statement. One who lives in accordance with the will of God need not hurry towards seeing his past life, if there is anything in your past life that you need to remember, it will be shown to you. Whitout unnatural effort or practices which robs you off your natural defence and protection. It happens that some practioners of mystic practices (meditation, astral travel, occultisim and etc) offten suffer ethereal attacks which they may not be aweare of until they pass on to the great beyond.

Being shown your past life doesn't mean that you are more spiritually developed than others. If it is shown to you naturally, accept it and learn from it; it means that there is something that you need to learn from that past life that is shown to you.  If it is never to you, then forget; it means that you dont need to see it. It will come to you naturaly, if you need it.

Dr Ferlie:
Is it possible to come, for example, as an American in one cycle of re-incarnation and as a Nigerian in another?

Yes. An American may reincarnate as a Nigerian, and vise-verse. A whiteman can reincarnate as a blackman and vise versa. The physical body and the colour of the physical body does not determine incarnations and reincarnations. The laws of creation determines where and when a soul incarnates with mathematical exactitude that allows no injustice. Where you are born and the conditions under which you are born are exactly what you earned for your self in your previous existences. The Law of reciprocal action in conjunction with the Law of attraction of homogeneous species determine the place, condition, race, and time each soul should incarnate.

Dr Ferlie:
In the ethereal realm, who/what oversees the affairs of spirit germs? Do they have organised government like us or Is God directly in charge of them?

The laws of God guide and direct all processes in all planes of creation. The natural laws operate on the ethereal realms as much as they operate on physical realm to which the earth belongs.

When people pass on to the ethereal realm, owing to the Law of spiritual gravitation, they gravitate to an ethereal plane which corrresponds to their weight. The more a soul deviates from the will of God, the heavier and darker the soul becomes. Such souls will find them selves in heavy, dark and ugly ethereal realm. The more a soul lives in the will of God(the original teaching of Christ) the more the spiritual core shines through, and the lighter the soul becomes. Lighter souls will find themselves in a very light, bright, and beautiful ethereal plane. 

There are parts of the ethereal realm that are uglier than the earth; such parts is where heavy souls sojourns after physical death. There are parts of the ethereal realms that are far more beautiful than any human on earth can imagine. Even such ethereal realms are still not comparable to Paradise in beauty, there is no place in the world of matter as beautiful as paradise.

Thus in the ethereal realms, killers will find themselves in the same plane, a plane corresponding to their weight. Liars will find themselves in the same plane; so will idlers group themselves together in the same plane; so will cheaters and etc. Each grouped together in a plane corresponding to their weight.

It naturally follows that there will be suffering in dark and ugly ethereal planes; while there is joy, harmony and happiness in the lighter ethereal planes.

It is also possible for a soul to make progress in the ethereal realms, ie a killer changes and stops being a killer. This changer will also be evidenced on the souls ethereal body, making it lighter; and consequently the soul will float into a different ethereal environment, an environment corresponding to its new weight.

So a soul sojourners in the ethereal world until it is forced to reincarnate on earth; or in the case of righteous soul, until the inner spiritual core finally bursts through, disintegrating the ethereal body and allowing the fully developed spirit to be lifted out of the world of matter back to Paradise.

God is not in the ethereal plane as much as God is not in the physical planes. God stands outside creation which is only a work of God. Creation cannot carry God whose enormous power and radiation will incinerate creation, if creation dears venture too close to HIM. But HIS radiation, HIS will radiates into creation, animating and controlling everything. What we call the laws of nature, the laws of creation, and even the physical laws are manifestations of the will of God.

Once again thanks and remain blessed.

Dr Ferlie:
Justcool - Thanks for the reply.

Does it mean souls that refuse to do God's will after several incarnations, to and fro, will eventually die, permanently?

Yes. Every soul, the core of which is the spirit germ from Paradise, incarnate many times in the physical realm. By experiencing the worlds of matter, the spirit develops. The spirit started as an unconscious spirit germ or seedling; it could not become conscious in Paradise due to the enormous pressure of the vicinity of God. So the spirit had to decend into matter which is further away from God; and in the worlds matter the spirit matures or develops till becomes completely a conscious spirit bearing a human form. Much like a seed has to be planted into the earth for it to germinate and grow.

All that the soul need in-order to mature and return back to Paradise is to live in accordiance with the will of God. Hardwired in the spirit is the ability to sense the will of God. The spirit caries this ability because the spirit is a part bearer of the will of God. Some people refer to this ability to as conscience or intuition; the intuitive perception and the conscience is always in accord with the will of God.

If a soul refuses to follow the will of God, such a soul is headed towards destruction, because, under that circumstance, it will not be able free itself from the world of matter before the destruction or decay of matter. One of the fundamental laws of creation is the law of reciprocal action; this law ensures that man must reap what he/she had sown. Everything you do must return back to you. Even the words and the thoughts you indulge in, they all have material forms which are tied to you, and you cannot leave the world of matter when you are tied to anything material. Not even the smallest atom of the matterial worlds can enter Paradise. Only through suffering the karma of you words, thoughts, and deeds can you be freed from them. But one don't necessarily need to go through karma; if one repents and live in accord with the will of God a protective aura will be formed around him and just like the atmosphere protects the earth, the protective aura around such an individual will greatly mitigate or reduce the karma returning to the individual.

A soul that goes through the disintegration of matter will be completely dissolved; the body of the soul being material will be torn to pieces and disintegrated. The pains of this experience will cause the spirit, wearing the soul, to lose consciousness and return back to being a spirit germ; this is the much dreaded spiritual death, the worst thing that can happen to a human soul. Once completely freed of all its coverings, the unconscious spirit germ will float back to Paradise.

So each spirit must return back to Paradise. Those that developed in accordance with the will of God, after casting aside all their material coverings, will return back to Paradise as conscious human spirits, having a name and human form. Those that refuse to develop in accordance with the will of God will undergo spiritual death and after separation from matter, they will return back to paradise as an unconscious spirit germs.

Each individuals fate lies solely in his/her own hands.

Dr Ferlie:
How long does the grace period takes, as long as the physical universe exist? When the soul eventually dies, what happens thereafter to it?

The human spirit is graced to mature in the world of matter, stating from the time that part of the world of matter reached the stage of ripeness till that part of the world of matter reaches the stage of decay or disintegration.

Everything material passes through these four stages that I mentioned earlier. Due to the distance of the worlds of matter from God and due to the mature of the substances of the world of matter, their forms only exist for a while.  It grows old(over-ripeness) and dies(disintegrated or dissolved) in order to be remodelled. This is why the religious book all say that this world is transient. It is actually the forms that are transient, not the basic constituents which precipitated from the radiation of God and thus are eternal in its rotation through the four stages.

The spiritual worlds on the other hand are not transient; they are eternal but still dependant on the power that comes from God. Without this power, the whole creation, from the Primordial spiritual to the physical, will gradually decay and cease to exist.

The duration of the forms in the world of matter or the time that each part of the world of matter will go into decay is determined before hand by the Will of God. But the behaviour of the human spirits that incarnated into that part of the world of matter can greatly shorten or lengthen this duration or period.

Just as you can determine, based on statistics, that the average healthy man will live up to 80 years or old age. But if an individual decides to become reckless or promiscuous, he may catch HIV and die at 30. The individual's behavior can lengthen or shorten each of the aforementioned four stages. Just like a drug addict, who, in his 30's may already have aged as much as a man in his 70's due to the stress that the drug puts on the body.

If the human spirits in a particular part of the material universe are living in accord with the will of God, their spirits as it matures will experience greater attraction from the mature spirits in Paradise, the Primordial spirits. This attraction will, as it pulls the spirit attached to the material worlds, also pull that part of the universe closer to paradise. Through these human spirits who are connected with Paradise, spiritual power will flow into that material universe strengthening it and increasing its duration; not to mention, making it more mobile beautiful and ennobled.

By the same a token, if the spirits in a particular part of the world matter refuses to follow the will of God. Their spirits will not mature and consequently experience less pull from Paradise. Through them less spiritual ower will flow down Paradise to their environment. That part of the universe where such indolent spirits incarnates will become heavier and distance further from Paradise. The heaviness and distance from Paradise will cause that part of the universe to become ugly, rigid, and will soon fall into a premature disintegration.

The earth almost reached this point a few centuries ago; which necessitated the visit of Jesus who as a part of Divinity bore within Him the life giving Divine power. The Divine power of God, through Jesus flowed into the earth, strengthening all forms and preventing the earth from a premature disintegration.

It is really unfortunate that we humans on earth repaid this enormous gift of love, Jesus, with enemity. Mankind murdered Him on the cross, and then turned around and claimed that God sent Him to be crucified.

I hope this helps. Feel free to come up with any more questions that you might have.

Thanks and remain blessed.

Deepsight
To further deal with your last post.

Deep Sight:
However it is readily obvious on my first reading that you have absolutely elected to change the words written by the authour. Where he writes "thought" you substitute "spiritual volition."

I didnt substitute anything, it is clear that the author was talking about the formation of Ethereal thought forms, in the quotations that you provided; not the formation of fine gross material thought forms or phantoms. Only the ethereal type of thought forms require the involvement of the spiritual intuition. I have explained to you that there are two types of thought forms: (1) Fine gross material thoughts forms, and (2) Ethereal thought forms.
The thought forms that arise from the physical brian are the Fine gross material thought forms which is what we are dealing with in this thread.

Deep Sight:
Indeed it is apparent to my mind that there is a distinction between "thoughts" and their ethereal forms. Otherwise the authour would not refer to "the ethereal forms of the generating thought." I will revert appropriately when I have the strength though, as your posts always require a lot of consideration both for length and depth.

Also keep in mind, like I keep pointing out in this thread that there are two types of thought-forms. There are ethereal thought forms and fine gross material thought forms. Fine gross material thought forms arises from the activity of the physical brain.

And the 'thought' that we are dealing with in this thread is that which arises from the brain. These are fine gross matter all the way to their core. The brain does not have the power to lend thought forms and ethereal covering.
Only thoughts or volitions of the spirit can receive an ethereal covering bearing in its core an animating animistic substance. The power to do this flows through the spirit and not the physical body or the brain; this power is the principal neutral power or the Living Creative Power.

If a thought that arises from the brain is felt by the spirit as the thought arises, then in addition to this fine gross material thought form that arises from the brain, an ethereal thought form is also created. The ethereal thought form can result because the spirit, or the spiritual intuition, through which the Living Creative Power flows is involved.

That lecture you quoted, "Thought Forms" deals primarily with ethereal thought forms, not those that arise only out of brain activity. Such thought forms, fine gross material thought forms have been dealt with in earlier chapters of the Grail Message, ie in Volume one of the message.

Now in view of this explanation above reconsider the quote that you pulled from the Grail Message:

"Just as a thought when it arises is simultaneously perceived intuitively, with greater or lesser intensity, [u]so its ethereal form will bear an equivalent life."
From The lecture "Thought Forms," Volume II of the Grail Message.

And this one:

"The Living Creative Power which flows through man collects ethereal substance through the volition of a completed thought and moulds it into a form which gives expression to the will of this thought."   
From The lecture "Thought Forms," Volume II of the Grail Message.

As I said earlier, it is my perception that the 'man' mentioned in the above quotation is the spirit and not the physical body. The 'completed thought' is justified because, in the case of a thought coming from the brain, before the ethereal form is created, the fine gross material form has already been completed. If this thought is deeply felt, as it is arsing from the brain, the spirit pecieves it too and consequently and ethereal form of the thought is created. If the thought is coming from the spirit, before the ethereal form is created, the thought had already become a completed deed in the spirit. Either way, the thought is completed before the ethereal form is created.

I repeat, that lecture from which you quoted, primarily deals with ethereal thought forms not fine gross matrail thought form.

It is expected the you have read the earlier lectures before you read that lecture.

I know I keep paraphrasing the same thing that I have been saying; please pardon me.

Thanks and remain blessed.

Deepsight my dear friend and brother, once again thanks for your observations.

Deep Sight:
Justcool you might want to consider that it is very easy indeed to presume that persons who have a different view from yours are always - "using their intellect only and not their intuition."

This is the dictatorship of a perspective that presumes its own intuition to be the only intuitive perception that could be correct or true.

That is no different from the average Christian who considers that any person who has divergent views from him, simply has not been touched by the "Holy Spirit."

Dictatorship? My brother, I am not forcing you to accept my perceptions or views. I am only giving it to you to consider. If you find them wanting, please drop them. You have a right too to express your views or opinions on my perception. When I express that a particular view is intellectual, I don't mean it as an insult. It is only my perception which can be right or wrong.

Deep Sight:
I will revert later.

Please do so; and I apologise before hand, if I have offended you in any way. Please point out where and how I have done so; so that perhaps I would learn from my mistake.

Deep Sight:
However it is readily obvious on my first reading that you have absolutely elected to change the words written by the authour. Where he writes "thought" you substitute "spiritual volition."

This is another extremely serious accusation. I do not change the authors words. I only offer my perception of the context under which the particular word was used by the author. You can accept my perception or throw it away.

In this thread we are dealing with 'thoughts' that come from the physical brain; ie during meditation. We are not dealing with thoughts that arise from the spirit without the participation of the physical brain. We only ascribe the word 'thought' to both processes, which are very different, due to the deficiency of our language. Strictly speaking spirits do not think, as in making mental processes. Rather than mental processes, spirits use thier intuitions to make decisions. I have tried to explain this many times in this thread.

Please show me in any of my quotes of the Grail Message where I changed the words. Any reader can easily pick up the Grail Message and crosscheck my quotes.

Deep Sight:
Indeed it is apparent to my mind that there is a distinction between "thoughts" and their ethereal forms. Otherwise the authour would not refer to "the ethereal forms of the generating thought." I will revert appropriately when I have the strength though, as your posts always require a lot of consideration both for length and depth.

This is your perception. My perception differs from your here. I will repeat the same question I asked you earlier: Is there a distinction between a house and its form?

Referring the the physical form of a generating house(a house in the process of being built) does not make the house different from the form.

Once again in this thread we are not dealing with ideas and conceptions, we are dealing with completed thoughts.

Once again, thanks and remain blessed.

@ Dr Ferlie

Thanks for your questions.

The world of matter, both the physical and the beyond has seven major parts. The world of matter is made up of two basic realms-- the ethereal and the gross matterial. The physical universe belongs to the gross material realm.

Imagine the physical world or the physical universe like a wheel with seven major segments rotating eternally through the four stages of (1) birth or blossoming, (2)ripeness, (3)over-ripeness and (4)decay. Once a particular segment or part of the physical world arrives at the stage of ripeness; at this point spirit germs which had already journeyed down from paradise, incarnate into that particular segment or part of the universe. These incarnations, of fresh spirit germs from Paradise, continues until that part of the world of matter had passed the stage of ripeness and had progressed into the next stage which is over-ripeness.

Each part of the physical universe has a corresponding ethereal realm; the ethereal realm is usually what people refer to as the beyond.  Thus spirits that incarnate in a particular part of the physical universe, pass on to the ethereal realm corresponding to that particular part of the universe, when they die.

Cross-incarnation or trans-ncarnation is impossible. A spirit in a particular part of the material universe remains in it and must complete its development in that particular part of the universe. The spirit can only incarnate in the physical realm of that particular part of the material universe and it can only stay in the ethereal realm of that particular universe when the spirit drops its physical body as in death.

The part of the universe, on which the earth is located is called Ephesus. There are seven of such universes and each universe contains galaxies and milloins of stars. On each universe or on each of the seven parts of the universe there is a planet that harbors human life.

It is impossible to travel physically from one of these parts of the universe to another. The distance is unimaginable to the human brain. Every star that we see in the night sky, even those so far away still belong to this part of the physical universe called Ephesus.

Ephesus has passed the stage of ripeness, and consequently fresh spirit germs from Paradise can not incarnate on it anymore. All the people you see on earth today have been to earth many times; the interval between reincarnations is spent in the ethereal realm corresponding to the earth.

The humans on others parts of the universe have human forms like we do on earth. This form is actually a physical representation of the form of the Primordial spiritual Spirits in the Primordial realm which is far above the world of matter. Indeed everything in the physical realm is a coarse representation of the ideal prototypes in the Primordial spiritual realm. So humans in other parts of the universe do not look like the aliens we see on science fiction movies. They don't have three heads, one eye and etc. Such creatures, the aliens we see in movies, are only a product of fanciful imagination. Such aliens do not exist.

I have never incarnated on any other part of the physical universe, because it is impossible, as I explained above. All my incarnations have been on earth. I have been allowed to see some events that happened in my previous incarnations, and even some of experiences that I had in the ethereal realm in-between my incarnations on earth.

Events that happen in other parts of the universe is of no importance to spirits on this part of the universe. A spirits fate which lies in its hands alone is to be lived in the parts of the universe where he is; whether here on earth or in the ethereal, it still the same part of the material universe.

About the other parts of the universe, all I can say to you is that one of them had already passed through the stage of decay. Oneday this part of the universe, Ephesus, which we live in, will approach the stage of decay; then everything in it will gradually decay. Spirits that could not detach themselves from it and return back to paradise, will feel the pains of disintegration. This will cruse then till they lose consciousness and returns back to being a spirit germ. This is the much dreaded spiritual death.

The letter addressed to the seven churches in Asia in the Revelation of John are actually addressed to these seven parts of the universe. The seven churches in Asia mentioned I the Revelation are actually these seven parts of the universe with there corresponding ethereal environments. I can further elaborate why the seven churches in Asia bear names corresponding to the different parts of the universe, if you want me to. Right now all I will say is that the number seven is a very special number linked to Imanuel who is the will of God. In every work of the will of God, the number seven will be seen. Creation can be divided into seven major realms or species. Each realm has seven major parts. Even the planet earth has seven major parts or continents. Even the name 'Imanuel' is made up of seven letter, if spell correctly. By all this is by the way, and digressing from the theme of this thread.

So let me return back to the seven parts of the universe and summarise: There are seven parts of this physical universe with there corresponding ethereal environments. In each of these seven parts of the physical universe there is a planet in which there are humans.

I hope this helps. If there is any part that is not clear enough, feel free to ask for further clarification. I will gladly do so.

Thanks and remain blessed.

@ Deepsight

Thanks for your last post. I will treat it exhaustively; but before I proceed, I must put some things in perspective.

1) I do not encourage taking paragraphs or sentences from the Grail message; the Grail Message must be read in its entirety. The book is written like a Chinese puzzle; the key to one lecture may lie in another lecture, so you just can read one lecture and base your argument on it. I am only going to give excerpts from the Grail Message to you in this thread, with the hope that it will enduce you to delve deeper into the Grail Message. Carefully read the lectures from where I lift the excerpts that I will give here and dont just consider the excerpts as saparate things, they are part of the whole.

2) The Lectures are arranged in successive order; the knowledge mediated in the lectures builds on what has already been hinted in the previous lecture. So, words are used in different contexts. At the beginning the it calls everything non-physical the beyond; as it proceeds it goes into the details about what the beyond is made of--different species of creation.

3) You cannever grasp the Grail Message with your intelect alone. You must exert your intuition to grasp the message. The message is not written so that you can pick out sentences and try to understand them with you intelect; you will never succeed in this. Each sentence is a part of the whole and it cannever truly be grasped without having read the whole message. It demands that the reader exerts his/her intuition to put the puzzle together so that a living picture might arise. Just like a Chinese puzzle, one piece of the puzzle may give an impression contrary to what the whole picture looks like; you cannever describe or perceive a picture by just considering one piece of the puzzle. Do not hold on to words which are only meant to convey the living knowledge which can only be perceived intuitively. Try to grasp the context in which the word is used. Beyond words, expressions and contexts lies the radiant splendor of the living knowledge mediated in the Grail Message.

4) Also keep in mind that the Grail Message was originally written in German not English. The English transaltion only renders an aproximate meaning of the original German text. However, if the reader reads with an alert intuition, he/she will easily lift the veil of earthly language and behold the radiant and living knowlege. Such an individual will easily percieve the context in which a word is used. He/she will not hold on to the earthly word but rather the meaning which can be pecieved. If you can read German, I will advise your to also read the German edition. Some serious seekers have learnt the German Language just to be able to read the German text of the Grail Message.

The translators always put the following note at the each of the English translation:

The book  In the Light of Truth: The Grail Message  is a translation after the original German text, “Im Lichte der Wahrheit – Gralsbotschaft”. In some cases the word-forms of the translation can only render the meaning and contents of the original approximately. Nevertheless, the reader will come to a good understanding of the text, if he strives to absorb its meaning inwardly.

http://www.grailmessage.com/lectures/thefirststep.html


Now with these four clarifications out of the way; lets deal with the sentences you excerpted from the Grail Message.

Deep Sight:
It emerges within that lecture that there is a distinction between thoughts and thought-forms.

Thought-Forms are what you might describe as being of ethereal matter - NOT THOUGHTS.

I believe this is the source of the mis-understanding that you have.

For this purpose, I extract from the Lecture on thought forms as follows [Page 270 of the Hard-Back version; Para 5] -

"The Living Creative Power which flows through man [b]collects ethereal substance through the volition of a completed thought and moulds it into a form which gives expression to the will of this thought".[/b]
From the lecture "Thought Forms", Volume II of the Grail Message.

The foregoing renders it clear that living creative power (which you certainly will not call matter) collects ethereal substance about it through the volition of a completed thought! . It is thus clear that a completed thought (which is not matter) then gathers ethereal substance about it which "moulds it into a form which gives expression to the will of this thought."

What you quoted above contradicts your argument but you don't perceive it due to the fact that you approach the sentence with your intelect alone. The Key word is "Volition" The volition does not come from the brain, it comes from the spirit. The expression "volition of a completed thought" is dealing with the spirit and not the brain. The thought used in this context is that which results from the volition of the spirit and not the activity of the physical brain. I have said many times that the 'thought" we are dealing with in this thread is that which comes from the activity of the physical brain.

The thought forms which are dealt with in that lecture you quoted are ethereal forms of spiritual volitions which operate in the ethereal world. The expression "completed thought" refer to the ability of the spirit to produce a completed work or produce a deed in the spiritual; what later manifests in the ethereal and gross material are maifestations of what had alrady become a deed in the spiritual. Once a spirit decides, this decision is a completed thought because it is already a deed in the spiritual; it makes an impression in the animistic. Thus the decision is already completed in the spiritual; it then makes an impression on the animistic before the ethereal form is formed; it is this animistic core of the decision(completed thought) that gathers ethereal substance and creates an ethereal form.

The Living power passes through the Spirit; by making decisions, the spirit chanells the Living power into differnt directions; in this chaneling lies the work which is already a completed deed. What manifests later in the ethereal and gross material are only a consequence of the deed that had already been done in the spirit. This is why reponsibilty falls on the spirit and not the animistic, ethereal, and gross material.

The aformentined ethereal forms of spiritual volitions are the types of "thought forms" that some people regard to as entities or demons depending on the nature of the volition that gave rise to them; they are very powerful and really living because they bear an animistic mobile core.

The "man" referred in the sentence from the Grail Message lecture that you quoted, is the spirit and not the physical body. The Living Creative power or the Principal neutral Power does not flow through the physical body; it flows through the spirit. Only the spirit can tape into this power, and chanell it into different directions while making decisions; the physical can only use a degradation of this power.

Even in the first lecture of the message we read:

"But the brain stands silent before the incomprehensible power streaming through all that exists, from which it derives its own activity."  http://www.grailmessage.com/lectures/silence.html

Like I said earlier this incomprehensible power, the Living Creative power or the Principal neutral Power does not flow in its entirety through the physical body or the brain; the brain and the physical body drives their activity from it, a degradation of it. This spiritual power flows in its entirety through the spirit, and it is the spirit that is the real man; so when it is said that this power flows through man, only the spirit is meant and not the physical body, which stands silent before this spiritual power.

You can't just pick out lectures or sentences from the Grail Message. You have to digest it in view of the previous prerequisite lectures. The "thought forms" referred to in that lectures are spiritual volitions. The expression thought form is used due to in inadequacy of the language. There is a different from the thought forms arising from spiritual volition and thought forms arising from brain or mental activity. Although they all operate within the laws of creation, they are of different gradations and operate at different planes of creation.

The activity of the physical brain cannot create an ethereal form, the difference in species will not allow this. The activity of the physical brain creates a thought form of fine gross matter not ethereal matter. Therefore thought(that which arises from mental activity) is made up of fine gross matter and not ethereal matter.

This knowledge is scatted across the chapters of Grail Message; reading one chapter, in isolation of others, is not enough to convey the entire picture.

Read these lectures:
Awake;
Morality;
Silence;
The First Step;
The Human Word;
Thought forms;
The error about Clairvoyance;
In the realms of Demons and Phantoms;
Gross matter, Ethereal matter, radiations, space and time;
Various aspects of clairvoyance.

The above eight chapters will give you a more detailed view on the nature of thoughts. But in order to get fully acquainted of this knowledge, read the whole Message.

If you carefully read the wonderful lecture, 'Silence,' you will see that there are two types of thoughts; or better, the word "thought" is can reffer to two different things. Consider this quote from the lecture 'Silence':

"I am always speaking here only of real thoughts, which carry within them the vital power of the psychic intuition. Not of the power wasted by the brain-substance entrusted to you as a tool, which forms but fleeting thoughts that only manifest in a wild medley as shadowy phantoms, and fortunately very soon fade away. Such thoughts merely waste your time and energy, and thereby you fritter away a gift entrusted to you." http://www.grailmessage.com/lectures/silence.html

What the writter reffers to in the above as 'real thought' are what was dealt with in the lecture, "Thought Forms."
In the above post you also see another type of "thought," that which comes from the brain, or which is formed as shadowy phantoms by the brian. This is the "thought" that we are dealing with in this thread. Here we are dealing with what is visualized during meditation or visualization as taught by mystics. The physical brian, or mental activity is needed for such visualization.


Another wonderful lecture to carefully read is 'The first step.' Here are a few excerpts from it:

"But here they err; for thoughts too belong to the World of Gross Matter,, "

" Thoughts, words and the visible deed all belong to the Realm of Gross Matter in this Creation!

Thoughts operate in the World of Fine Gross Matter, words in the World of Medium Gross Matter, and visible actions take form in the World of coarsest, that is, densest Gross Matter. These three kinds of your activity are gross material! " http://www.grailmessage.com/lectures/thefirststep.html

Deep Sight:
Thus I say to you that the thought, as i SAID EARLIER - is a living idea. This idea takes on form as an ethereal mould and this is what is called a Thought-Form! So thoughts are not, and could never be ethereal matter. Rather thought-forms, are what are such ethereal matter!

First of all, we are not dealing with "a living idea" in this thread, we are dealing with that which is produced during thinking or during mental activity. I keep referring you to why we started this argument in the first place-a guy opened a thread asking if thoughts can become matter in view of visualization. When you practise visualization as taught by mystics, you use your brain to create pictures which you visualize. Thus we are talking about the thoughts that results from brain activity. Why keep deviating from the point?

I went further to define what I mean by "thoughts" and under what context I am using the word -- that which arises from the activity of the physical brain. Why do you keep coming up with your "a living idea"?

By the definition above and in the context of this thread, Spirits do not produce thoughts, spirits do not think. A physical brain is needed for thoughts; Spirits do not have a physical brain, rather they posses a spiritual organs for forming ideas. The forms of these ideas are what is described in the Lecture "Thought forms."

Spirit produces volitions, the brain produces thoughts; these are two different things. But due to the fact that our language is inadequate especially in describing non-physical things, we sometimes refer the spiritual ability to make decisions or the spiritual decisions(volitions) as thoughts. But strictly speaking, spirits do not think; spirits perceive intuitively and posses volitions.


Also it is wrong to consider 'thought forms', arrising from the mental activity, as being different from the thought itself. Here I am only speaking of the thoughts that arises from the physical brain's activity. You house has a form; but is that form different from the house? Can you sepereate the form from the house or can you have a house without a form.

Another example is: Do you consider vissible physical actions different from the action they express. If you read the lecture, 'The first Step,' carefully you will understand that physical actions are forms too; physical actions are visible active forms in the coarsest World of Matter, just like 'thought forms' are fine-gross material forms in the realm of fine gross matter. Now, is a physical action different from its vissible form? I hope you understand this question becuse I want to you to answer it.

The spiritual volition, by making use of the principla neutral power, mould animistic and ethereal substance into forms; the volition actualy remains in the spirit but the form molded from it moves away, although still attached to the spirit, and operates in the ethereal realm.

But in the case of the physical brian; the brian, while thinking, mould forms of fine gross matter from fine gross material plane. These forms are inseperable to the thoughts; they are the thoughts. Much like the form of your house is inseperable from your house.

However if the promting behind this thinking is from the spirit, then naturally an ethereal form of it already exsist in the ethereal world, and the volition initiating the whole process remains in the spirit like I already pointed out. For the spiritual volition has to make an impression on the animistic which makes an impresion on the ethereal, creating an etheral form; the ethereal then makes and impression on the gross matter. This impression from the soul is picked by the back brain, this is then passed to the frontal brian, which processes them or articulates them as thoughts. Fine material forms arise from this activity of the brian.

Deep Sight:
Now there is further text that elucidates and proves this point. Quoting again from the message, the next paragraph reads -

"Just as a thought when it arises is simultaneously perceived intuitively, with greater or lesser intensity, [u]so its ethereal form will bear an equivalent life."[/u]

- And this conclusively shows "a thought" to be a different thing from "its ethereal form!"

Now finally, on Page 272 [last paragrpah], we read -

"Each fundamental type (of thought forms) has its own particular stamp which has been impressed on each thought-form as the foundation of the characteristics embodied in it, no matter what outer shape each form has taken THROUGH THE GENERATING THOUGHT"

I think this last quote hammers home the point clearly: "the generating thought" - is different from the "outer shape or form" -  - and as such is NOT matter.

I can elaborate on this but I believe that my explanations above already clarified it. Always ask yourself, In what context is the author using the word "thought" in this lecture? Is he talking about that which results from brain activity or is he talking about that which results from spiritual volition? I have already told you earlier in this thread that forms arising from spiritual volitions only have matter as thier covering; thier innermost core or animating core is animistic and not material. But thought forms arissing from the physical brain's activity are made up of matter all the way to thier core. Please read it carefully before replying. I notice from some of your replies that you do not read my post very well before attacking it. Your reply to my post on the thread, "Is the Holy Spirit a sentient Being," showed me that you did not bother reading my posts at all.

By the way, how is your book coming along? Have you started writing it?

As always, thanks and remain blessed.

Idehn:
I am not sure of this one. I mean really bad things happen to good people all the time and many cruel and vicious people throughout history like Joseph Stalin and Genghis Khan never really experienced much suffering compared to all that they caused to others.

You take only one earth life in question, and that is why you arrived at the conclusion that bad things happen to good people. When you consider that every body on earth today has been on earth many times then the solution to your puzzle is found.
The real man is the spirit; and the bodies(i.e. the physical body) are only coverings or cloaks and not the real man. So an evil done by a man may or may not return to him in that particular earth life; it may return to him in his next earth life. So when a man who is supposedly good is hit by an unfortunate event, the karma that gave rise to that event may have its origin in the previous earth life. And likewise, the evil that some people today may not return to them in this earth life, it may return to them in their next earth life. A change of physical body(reincarnation) does not annul the law of reciprocal action; just as a change of cloth does not alleviate one from paying for his crime on earth.  The human spirit journeyed into subsequent creation(to which belongs the physical realm) to attain maturity and to ennoble subsequent creation, one earth life is not enough for the human spirit achieve the prerequisite maturity that the spirit needs in order to return back to Paradise; so the spirit has to return to earth many times.

I have written more elaborately on the journey of the human spirit and how reincarnation affects it in another thread. Please read: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=463682.msg6321483#msg6321483

Idehn:
I do not think this law holds always in the physical world. For example electrostatic interactions which describe a good number of interactions in the physical world, is defined by the inverse of this law. If I understand your use of species correctly, protons( a specie of particle) are repelled by other protons(exactly the same) and any particles like them that share the property of being positively charged. The same goes for for the electron and any other particle. Electrostatically speaking they are only attracted to particles that are not like them i.e particles with opposite charge. Does Electrodynamics not violate this law? A similar principle works for magnetism. If this is not how specie should be used then perhaps you can discuss what you mean by it.

What you described above is a manifestation of the law of attraction of homogenous species at a split-level. Mark well, the law is called attraction of homogeneous species, not attraction of parts of a species or split species. At the split species level, same parts or identical parts repel while un-identical parts attract; so as to reorganize into a complete species which will then attract only homogeneous species. Protons, electrons and etc are not species, rather they are parts of a species; each carries a polarity that makes a species. A species implies a neutral charge, a complete whole; using scientific terms, a molecule can be referred to as a species.

I will give you an example, lets deal with big things in order to avoid confusion. Lets deal with the human spirit. The spirit is a species; but in creation, this species called spirit splits into two polarity -- man and woman. The man carries the positive(active, coarse) components of the spiritual species, while the woman carries the negative(passive, fine, gentle, and refined) component of the spiritual species. This is why women and men attract each other more than two men attract each other. Only in them coming together does a complete(neutral) species arise; this can be achieved through working together of the two polarities.

So looking at it at the split level, one may ask: “if attraction of homogeneous species holds true, how come two men do not attract each other as much as a man attracts a woman; since men are homogeniouse in gender while men and woman are not homogeneous in gender?” The key to this puzzle lies in the fact that they are split species.

So at the split-species level likes repel; this is a manifestation of the law of attraction of homogeneouse species; at the split-specie level the law tries to build the specie back together to a complete specie. The will of God which stands behind these laws is Love and love is harmony, so where there is disharmony or disarray love re-builds and eliminates the disharmoney. Example, if protons come together, they cannot build, you cannot rebuild an atom with just protons, you definitely need an electron; this is why protons repell each other yet they attract electrons. Only protons(and neutrons) and electrons can achieve an atom. And once an atom or a molecle is achieved then the same law manifests in attraction of the other homogeneous molecles or atoms. The will behind this law is to build up and achive harmony.

Back to man and woman. Two men, for example, cannot contineu the exsistance humans on earth, they cannot reproduce much like an atom cannot be achieved from just protons. But a man and a woman can; and a proton(positive charge) and an electron(negetive charge) can achieve an atom. So at the split level only opposite polarities are attracted in-oder to rebuild and achive a whole species.

But despite the fact that man and woman are split species of the same specie, the works(thoughts, words, and deeds) that they produce are not split species but complete whole species. And every work (thoughts, words, and deeds) that a particular spirit produces  takes on form in the beyond and  this form is tied with an invisible cord to the individual who produced it. These forms attract each other and according to the law of reciprocal action and the laws of circulation, these forms will only fall back on the originator.

This is why two men of the same disposition can attract each other, and will find each other in the same plane when they pass on. The attraction is due to their disposition which is a complete species and which has taken form in the beyond. This form can be said to have wrapped itself around them(their subtler bodies); thus it is the attraction of these forms(disposition) that the individuals feel as affinity. This is what is homogeneous in them.

Idehn:
The mechanism behind this one is not entirely clear. This description of the law of Spiritual Gravity is identical(again if I understand what you mean by species) to the principle of buoyancy. However, the foundation of the principle of buoyancy, force of gravity. It is because matter, no matter the state (gas,liquid,solid,plasma etc, ), have this one force in common that buoyancy can be applied to systems But you are telling me that the gravity we experience is not the force behind this system, but a subset of it. If, spiritual gravity and physical gravity do the exact same thing what is the distinction the two?  If they operate the same way are they not the same? From your description, spiritual matter should and any other matter should still be accessible to scientific inquiry in the same way matter is as they appear to have gravity in common which means it can easily be studied through science.
Can you clarify what you mean by primordial seed?

Actually there is no difference between the law of spiritual gravity and the law of gravity as observed by science.  The law of gravity as observed by science is only a physical manefestation of the law of spiritual gravity. These laws are uniform in all creation, but they manifest according to nature of the species concerened; and the physical being the lowest, the hevyest and at the bottom of the system, these laws all manifest in the physical with the respect to the nature of the physical realm as the heaviest and at the bottom.

Actually there is only one law: Love. It is this love of the creator that passes through all the planes of creation; and as they pass through the planes, the law splits or manifest in various form, by the time get to the physical they split into thousand fold different manifestations. Thus all physical laws are actually different manifestations of the same thing, much like a ray of light splits into different colors when it passes through a glass prism.

The fact that density causes obstruction is the reason for these different manifestations. So a law that is only one in the spiritual realm due to the nature of the spiritual species which is less dense; this same law may manifest in a thousand different verities on the physical because of the density of the physical. I will give an example: In the spiritual realm thought(decisions or resolutions), word, and deed are one. Once a spirit in paradise decides to do something, this decision will take on form immediately and become a deed. But on earth, before this decision can become a deed, the man needs to ponder(think) perhaps he may also use his words to speak about it, and finally perform the deed. Now we see one thing manifesting as three different things( Thoughts, words, and Deed).

As I already said earlier science can observe the laws of creation as they manifest in the physical realm because science only deals with the physical. As strange as it may sound to some, a scientist who is studying the laws of physics is actually studying the laws of God. One quality of God that manifests in all these laws is strictness and unchangability; science has confirmed that the physical laws are immutable. One who wants to drive the nail all the way back home would easily conclude that the source of these laws(God) is all immutable and unchangeable, since the laws are only a manifestation of His will.

Science cannot analyze the spiritual because science only deals with the physical. Science only works with the brain which is a physical organ. Owing to difference in species the brain cannot cross the boundaries of gross matter, it can never penetrate or understand the spiritual. But a scientists(and there are many of them) who open themselves and use their spiritual organs(i.e. intuition) in their researches will easily go beyond matter, such a scientist will attain a living conviction of the existence of God. For he would sense the will behind the natural laws. Albert Einstein was one of them.

Idehn:
At the general level I have these questions/concerns
1) All of these laws seemed to be based upon empirical observations of the material world and not empirical observations of any other. If spirit/animistic/ethereal etc,  mater is not physical than what sense does it make to project physical laws onto them when we cannot even studied them in an empirical manner. Laws as they are understood in science(such as newtons) are not explanations in and of themselves but only an observations(and even presuppositions) of universal phenomenon. These laws emergent properties of the universe from physical interactions/mechanism occur there within. For example,  the mechanism from which Newtonian laws emerge are many but are ultimately the result of (electromagnetic, gravitational, strong, and weak nuclear interactions). In fact we now know that it is incorrect to apply Newtonian mechanics to relativistic and quantum mechanical systems as it gives inaccurate or completely false predictions of phenomenon. They are really only accurate at macroscopic scales and only when observed at speeds that are not near that of light. Without the ability to analyze these substances empirically there is no way of knowing if we are making the same mistake of applying incorrect laws.

Yes what we call laws are only obersavations of the universal phenomenon. But these are not only observed on the earth. Even in the spiritual and other realms of creations, these manifestions can be observed too. Like I said ealier, these manifestations are actually expressions of the Love of God or manifestations of the Will of God.

I do not project the physical laws onto the nonphysical realms; the physical laws are physical manifestations of laws the laws of God. The laws of God are the same and unchangeable; the same laws that manifest in the physical also manifest in the nonphysical realms. The natural laws( of nature) are also manifestations of the laws of God. Man on earth think that these laws a peculiar to the physical realm, only manifest in the physical, or only physical phenomenon because man on earth only knows about the physical. When he passes on, he will be surprised that there is nothing supernatural; even in the beyond, all manifestations are natural. When people talk about things that annul the laws of nature, they are lying or talking out of ignorance, The laws of nature, the physical laws, or the laws of creation can never be annulled or broken; one can only learn them and apply them to his benefit but one can never annul them. 

Man can observe and analyze the physical with our physical organs; he can observe and analyze the ethereal with his ethereal organs(organs of his ethereal body); he can observe and analyze the animistic with his animistic organs(organs of his animistic body) and he can observe and  analyze the spiritual with his spiritual organs.
I understand your premise on the issue of making wrong conclusions of the physical laws because we cannot travel at the speed of light. Man can encounter many problems when he approaches the laws with his brain alone. But man carry the ability to know every manifestation of these laws; man carry the ability to sense the Will of God behind these laws; and this ability lies in the spirit of man. Any man approaching the laws with the physical brain alone will have to halt at the boundary of gross matter, he will never be able to penetrate the ethereal with his brain, neither can he be able to penetrate the animistic and spiritual. And since these laws issue above the physical; such an investigator may never be able to tell categorically and minutely the manifestations of the law. One needs to employ all the organs of all his bodies (ethereal, animistic, and spiritual) before he can explain the working of the laws to the minutest detail. Even though light in the physical realm travel at a speed that our brain can hardly conceive, compared to the spiritual it is very slow. The speed at the spiritual level is a thousand faster than the physical; this is why the spiritual can survey every happening in subsequent creation.

Idehn:
2)As I reference in the above, Laws are not explanations in and of themselves. For example to say that the reason that when you push against a wall you feel an equal and opposite force is because of Newtons third law is simply to state that it just does. It does not explain the phenomena at all but simply recognize that it happens.  Laws arise from phenomenon/mechanism(such as gravity) but the laws you have given do not explain the mechanism for how they apply in non-physical systems. What are the mechanism behind these non physical systems and how can we determine what they are? Also what are the mechanism for these in physical systems. They seem some what subjective such as your first law.

Something lies behind the mechanism which you described above; the will of God lies behind all mechanism which manifest the law of creation. In all planes of creation, the will of God lies behind the mechanisms. The mechanisms manifest only according to the nature of the species; the mechanism is not the source of the phenomenon. The mechanisim/phenonmenon(such as gravity) are as a result of the pressure of the spiritual. Behind everything lies the Will of God.

Idehn:
Again, if God is without a definition, it is not meaningful to say God "radiates", "decides", "allows" etc,  You can define God as a source of energy and matter for this system in which case some of those terms could apply but that definition is still insufficient to say God "thinks", "allows", and "decides". For example, the sun emits matter and energy but we do not say that the sun decides to emit coronal mass ejections every 11 years or so because there is no mechanism that stems from the definition of a Star that would suggest that the Sun has any form of sentience. With the definition of God we are working with(i.e the lack of one) it is even worse a definition of God is implied.

Everything in creation, or everything that exists, owes its existence to the radiation of God. God is the only thing that really living. God is the eternal life; He is the life itself.

The life that we possess or creatures posses is as a result of God. If we imagine life to be motion. God is the only thing that moves by itself. He keeps creations and creatures in motion. But these creatures or creations do not have their own motion; it is the motion of God that keeps creatures in motion.

God is the Life.

This is a very coarse analogy though; and it nearly scratches the nature of God.

Idehn:
This needs some clarification
1)It is becoming increasingly less clear what the distinction between all the these substances are. If all these substances respond to the exact same forces such as electromagnetism(heat/pressure) and gravitation(buoyancy/pressure) then I can see no way in which they are different. It sounds just like another form or state matter. Matter has variations in density and mass too which is the only distinguishing feature you have given between these substances that can hold. You said earlier that some of these substances can pass through each other without disturbing each other. If the spirit can respond to the same forces that the physical does than this proposition cannot hold. Perhaps you can ellaborate more on what you mean when you say "impression". From your definitions I cannot tell spirit apart from neutrinos or electrons.

All the substances have their origin in the radiation of God which in cooling down separated into components. Much like crude oil separates into components. Or much like a homogeneous pot of soup separate into components, when it cools down. Or like a spectrum of white light separates into seven components when the glass prism slows down the speed of light that passed through it. It is the same process working; only with a little differences in manifestation based on the nature of the substance in question. As above so be low; and as within so without.
The spiritual can make an impression on the animistic because the heaviest of the spiritual resembles the lightest of the animistic in density. Creation/Nature allows no gaps; the planes are so minutely geared into each other that an individual may confuse the lowest of the higher species with the highest of the lower species. Just like one may confuse a very low blue with a very high green; in a color spectrum sometimes it is hard to tell where a color ends and the next begins.

Each color is a wavelength; but even within each color their are several wavelengths. The highest(longest) wavelength of blue resembles the lowest(shortest) wavelength violet. despite this, blue and violet are still different colors. You can apply the same to the basic species of creation(spiritual, animistic, ethereal, and gross matter). The difference lies in the nature of the substance and the density just as the difference in the colors of the spectrum lie in the wavelengths.

In the “nature of the substance,” lies the ability to withstand Divine heat. The spiritual can take on form and exist at a distance in vicinity of the Devine because the spiritual can withstand the Divine heat more than other species. Physical cannot exists in such vicinity of the Divine plane; the physical cannot bear such heat and pressure.

For the sake of understanding, lets call the forces Divine. The Divine can make an impression on the spiritual; the spiritual can make an impression on the animistic; the animistic can make an impression on the ethereal; the ethereal can make an impression on the gross material. This is why the laws which originated in the Divine can manifest in all species of creation or penetrate into all species of creation.

Pure energy/ force as such is Divine; by the time it gets to the physical, it has already wrapped itself in various coverings. It pulsates through creation; circulates, it goes in out; like air goes into the body circulated through the organs via the blood and then the body breaths it out. The eternal giving and taking; which is a manifestation of the law of reciprocal action.

By impression, I mean the ability to directly affect another thing. To make and imprint on something or to directly affect that thing without any transition.

Idehn:
2) It sounds like you are saying the divine plane is like the core of a star and the core of the system. If that is the case then the heaviest objects should sink to the core not float to the top. The reason that stars are able to maintain themselves is because the equilibrium between gravitational force and disruption of equilibrium between electromagnetic strong nuclear forces. Without sufficient gravity the star goes nova. Without disruption of the equilibrium electromagnetic and strong nuclear forces within atoms the sun collapses into a black hole. In fact one the reason that the sun has a powerful magnetic field around it is partly do to its growing metallic core as it depletes its hydrogen and helium reservoir by fusing them into heavier(and more electrically conductive) substances. Even if the physical would  become super heated the pressure would keep physical matter at the same volume thus keeping them just as dense.  If anything the spirit should be the furthest away from the divine plane in the same way that super heated gasses are furthest away from the core of the sun. At the very least the divine plane would have to be the incredibly dense if not more dense than physical matter in order to keep it from going nova. How is the divine plane generating heat. Are we applying physical phenomenon onto a non physical system and if so why can we?

The star system which you described above is a manifestation of the same law; the same principle. Like I said earlier there is only one law. But the manifestation is a little bit different in the physical; that why the heaviest objects gravitate towards the center of the star.

I will give you an example: Imagine a body of water in a bucket or in a puddle. When you drop a stone into the center of the puddle, you cause waves to emanate from the center and travel towards the ends. So the direction of the wave is from the center to the ends. But when these waves hit the ends, the bucket or the puddle causes them to reflect and go in a reverse direction. One who is only familiar with the ends of the puddle or the ends of the water in a bucket, will easily believe the waves travel from the ends to the center. But the reverse is the case; the source of the waves remains the disturbance caused by the stone; what we observe as the ends is only a reflection of the waves. Reflections always take the reverse direction. So sometimes, manifestations at the end or at the borders of a system appear contrary to the reality.

Movements of particles cause heat. In the Divine the movement is far far far faster than movements on earth. The movement in the spiritual plane could be said to be a thousand years faster than the movement on earth.  Within the time frame of one day on earth, you can experience a thousand years in Paradise.

Idehn:
3)All that I said above is applying physical laws onto non physical objects which as I said earlier am not certain about doing. However, as I said these systems are being describe as if they are physical.

I think I already dealt with this.

Idehn:
What do you mean by "above"? What direction are these field lines? If it is these jets substances that causes gravity than they necessarily are traveling at the speed of light. If that is the case then there is no way massive body short of a black hole can organize them into what we call gravitational field lines. Since the cause of local gravitational disturbances are not the local curving of space-time due to gravitational masses then gravitational field lines would be completely arbitrary and would randomly permeate different parts of the universe without any masses. Not only that, how does this fit into the relativistic model of gravity at all? It does not claim at all that gravity is the result of particles.

By above I mean towards the lighter and less dense parts of creation. Towards the spiritual.

You can arrange the knowledge of the enveloped spiritual dusts as the cause of the attractions which will call gravity to fit into what science has already discovered about gravity, black holes and etc. However going into it now will take a very very long post before I can give you an idea of what is going on. But you can arrive at the Truth yourself. What I gave you is a tool for you to consider using. It is left for you to ponder on it or throw it away. If you ponder on it; soon will be amazed. You will find in it the explanation of everything that happens in the physical realm concerning gravity.

Idehn:
This is a VERY empirical claim. You are equating many physical phenomenon with the spirit, but it is not at all clear how it fits into these models. What is missing in our understanding about energy and matter that necessitates positing the spirit as the source of energy for the universe. For example I can say the reason that a car moves is because it is composed invisible particles called Mocor. However, if I do not explain how it relates to the combustion engine and rotational mechanics at all than there is no way of judging what I am saying has is meaningful. Stating that the strong nuclear force is somehow related to spirit is not meaningful as you are not giving any mechanism to explain how it relates to our understanding of these systems. These systems are perfectly explainable without referencing the spirit. I do not see how spirit can play any role in these physical phenomenon without drastically changing them. Are you aware that there are more substructures below the level of atoms? The forces working at those levels does not function like gravity and electromagnetism one of the reasons being its ranges are tiny. If this force is how spirits attract other substances then I would say that all these substances you are positing are what scientist call free quarks "which are theoretically impossible".

Actually you are right! Quacks are actually the spiritual dusts, that I mentions earlier, enveloped in all with all subtler coverings and having the lightest of all that is physical as a its outermost covering. The less covering the spiritual dust has the more energy can pierce through the covering. Thus the covering of quack are still physical(gross material) but they are extremely fine physical covering.

Idehn:
The above also creates problems with this

You said that spirit can pass through physical matter without leaving an impressions on physical matter. If spirit attract all lower species they attract all lower species with the strongest forces in the known universe it is not possible for them to just pass through matter an not have anything happen. At the very least atoms should become unstable when exposed to spirit because the neutrons and protons would be attracted to it just as much as they would be to each other even liberating particles from seemingly stable elements. Since currents of spiritual matter are pouring through our universe all the time there should be considerable high radio activity for all elemental isotopes. Also, what is the purpose of the cloak of substances if physical matter was going be attracted and subsequently bond with spirit anyway? The strong nuclear force should be sufficient to binding spirit directly to physical matter.

You need to read my posts more carefully. The spirit can pass matter without making any impression; because the difference between matter and spirit is far too great. But the lowest spiritual can interact with the highest animistic. This is why the spiritual dusts can receive animistic covering which allow them to sink further. By the time it reaches physical matter, it is already wearing medium gross matter as its outermost covering. Medium gross matter can interact with physical cross matter because of homogenity; they are both gross matter, only that physical is heavier than medium gross matter. As you strip these dust particles of their coverings, the more energy is realized; the more they can pass through substances. Radiations like Gamma rays, beta rays, indeed all radiations are these particles at different levels of coverings.
The spiritual dusts are lowest of the spiritual species; even lower the spiritual core of man. Thus being the lowest of the spiritual, they carry less power than the spirit of man. Indeed atoms(Neutrons and protons), and everything physical are attracted by the spirit; the spirit has an attracting influence on all lower species of creation because in the heart of the atoms of these species lie spiritual dust. Have you ever wondered how things like ‘mind over matter,’ ‘spiritual healings,’ and etc work?

Idehn:
ALL these interactions you describe between the spirit and the physical would be observable empirically especially since it necessitates the addition of high volumes of energy and mass to systems without any identifiable source. The fact that this energy coming in through spirits is required for holding atoms creates greats significant energy imbalances. Gravitational fields ,since the are loaded with spirit, should induce radio activity but this is not the case. In fact if someone dies their bodies should become highly radioactive because the energy needed to hold the atoms together goes away. You could measure the spirit leaving the body with a Geiger Counter. What happens when particle radioactively decay or when atomic structures are broken in high speed collisions? So long as the spirit interacts with the physical in some way it will necessarily be empirically observable. To say otherwise is to say that you can interact with with physical without interacting with physical world. How else could you tell the difference between nothing happening and the interactions you have given?

Science observe these interaction only from the side of the physical. There are things that are not physical which causes changes in the physical and which is too refined for science to deal with. The less physical covering these spirit dusts have the less science can deal with them. For the sake of clarity, let me acquaint you with the different ramifications of gross matter. We have (1)Fine gross matter as the lightest and at the boundary, (2) Medium gross matter which is what people refer to as the astral, and (3) Coarsest or heaviest gross matter---physical. All these are still gross matter, not ethereal which different from gross matter. Hopefully in the future science will as refined enough as to deal with astral matter, which is medium gross matter. But think about phenomenon's like anti-matter, dark-matter and etc; these phenomenon are actually particles with very very light physical covering.
Also science knows that energy must be flowing into the universe because a system without an input of energy cannot maintain its order; it contradicts the law of thermodynamics.
Also Geiger Counters being physical can only measure the physical. What it measures are these spiritual dusts at different levels of coverings; it can not directly measure the spirit dusts.
When I say covering, you must not think that the physical is only one covering. The spiritual dusts onto of other nonphysical coverings can have many physical coverings-- from the finest physical to the heaviest physical.

When the physical body and decays, it is not radioactive because such decay is a natural phenomenon. The decomposition is the dissolution of the structure back to the original molecules or atoms; it is not the dissolution or the destruction of the atoms. Radioactivity should not come into it at all because destruction of the structure of atoms or the dissolution of atoms are not involved. Radioactivity involves stripping the spirit dust particles of one of their several physical coverings. Decomposition of a physical body is not atomic.

Idehn:
I can tell you are uncomfortable with the notion of defining what God is, but this description is doing just that. Although you do not say it outright it is implied that by definition alone God IS the source of matter and energy. This creates an awkward paradox where you are equating something without a definition (God) with something that does have a definition (source of matter and energy). This needs to be resolved as it is something of a show stopper. It is logically incoherent and is ultimately like saying A=/=B but also A=B simultaneously. Without a definition this entire description falls apart as it is not at all clear how/if God relates to this system.

This statement contradicts much of your explanations. By saying God is the source all matter and energy you are describing God's nature and giving it a definition. I understand that you say you do not want to give God a definition and describe God as if you know what it is but that is precisely what you have been trying to do with your explanations above. You will not give an explicit definition of God and have said there is none but in your explanations the definition of God entirely implied. In fact, by saying God is perfect and majestic you are continuing to give a God definition. It is just you want to skip the step of explicitly defining God while continuing to do so implicitly. The problem with this is that the definition is in constant flux and its coherency can never be established so, while at the same time saying that there is no definition. It is impossible to move on to other things like God "exist", "feels", "creates" etc,

Your analogy here is not very correct. I never said that God is the matter and the energy in matter. You can say, although to a certain extent, that God is the source. But the source of a thing is not the same as being that thing. If I say that A is the source of B; this does not imply that A=B.  Everything has its origin from the radiation of God; God is the source of the radiation and not the radiation itself.

Idehn:
Whew that was a lot. I think I got everything I wanted say though. Thanks and looking forward to next reply.

Thank you too and I’ m looking forward to you reply.

Deep Sight:
It is your position that Jesus was the perfect embodiment of God’s will (He was God in fact, you say, which ties the noose of wills only tighter).

Given this, the simple question is ask; is this –

How could he say: “Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt?”

Does this not show God willing or pleading for something that was AGAINST the Divine will?

Does this not show a possible dichotomy of wills? That his will could conceivably be different from the Father’s will?

Could the son have a different desire from the father? If he does, would that not do sacrilege to the concept of their “oneness”?

Now God is perfect and thus unchangeable.

To draw wisdom from the Bible itself, might I invite you to appreciate that this is the reason why it is stated that God is the same yesterday, today and forever more. The Divine will is inflexible; adamantine. This is also why it is stated that “heaven and earth may pass away, but the word of the lord abideth forever.” The unchangeability of God is something that is enshrined in scripture, aside from being obvious to the deeply philosophical mind.

This Christ is said to be God in human form. He thus had a deep knowledge of the purpose and will of God regarding mankind. From time eternal, being divine, he must know very well the adamantine and unchangeable nature of the Godhead: given its perfection – for that which is perfect cannot be changed.

@Deepsight
When I read your posts I perceive a sharp intellect, superb reasoning power and intelligence; but an intellect not grounded by the intuition will only lead to many errors.

The conclusion that you drew above makes sense but it is not right. The expression, “Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt,” does not show a dichotomy of wills, rather it confirms the will.

I will tell you a story: When I lived in New Jersey for a while, every winter morning I loathed to step into the cold weather and go to work. Standing before my door, I will always say, "If there is anyway I can avoid daring this cold weather I would, but nevertheless I must go to work."

My will remains to go to work; the fact that at the door I expressed reluctance or fear of facing the cold weather does not mean that a different will arose in me. My will to go to work remained unflinching even when I expressed the fear of not walking in the cold weather.

Come to think of it my will was to go to work; walking in the cold is only a consequence of my will and not the will itself.

The will of God, why Jesus was sent to the earth is to bring the word of the father to mankind. Jesus being from the Truth was sent to give the truth to mankind. To bear witness to the Truth, to stand by it no matter what.
Jesus fulfilled this mission; He knew the will of God and would not deny the Truth even in the face of physical death.

What mankind decided to do to Jesus was their volition, and not the will of God, neither was it the purpose for which Jesus was sent. I repeat: Jesus was sent to deliver the Truth. Darkness tried to make Jesus fail by throwing obstacles in His way; when He would not succumb to any of the temptations, darkness used mankind to threaten the mission. Darkness used mankind to force Jesus to deny the Truth or face death by crucification, a very painful death.

Jesus remained faithful to the Truth and would rather accept to be crucified than deny the Truth. Has it ever occurred to you that if Jesus, during his trial, had denounced His teachings an accepted that He was a charlatan, Pontius Pilet would not have crucified him.

The prayer in Gethsemane which you quoted above was a confirmation of the fact that Jesus knew what awaited Him if He remained faithful -- death on the cross, which He would rather have avoided. But knowing that for Him not to deny the Truth that (death on the cross) was His only option; and He accepted it.

Let us analyze the situation of Jesus at that point. He had only a few options:
(1) To run away to a far distant land or to deny all his claims as being the Son of God.
(2) To miraculously change the mind of those that whished to Crucify Him.
(3) To remain faithful, stick to His guns and bear the consequences.

Option (1) would mean that Darkness has triumphed. It would mean that wolf had succeeded in scaring Jesus away from the sheep(mankind) that Jesus had come to shelter. Not to stand by His words or to run away is tantamount to withdrawing His words(the Truth on which salvation of mankind lies). This would leave mankind in the arms of darkness because all faith in Jesus and the salvation that comes from His words will be lost. Even though the average humanbieng may have taken this option; Jesus who was Love incarnate, would not. He would rather die than see His sheep left alone in the arms of the wolf.

Option (2) is not an option at all because it is impossible. Miraculously changing the mind of people is tantamount to interfering with their free will. Free will is an integral part of a human spirit; God does not interfere with the free will of man. Otherwise God would have changed the mind of all mankind to think and only behave righteously. Since mankind has free will; what they decide to do is of their own accord alone. God can only warn and show them the right path to follow; whether they choose to follow it or not is their choice. But these choices carry consequences which mankind cannot avoid. So God would not retrieve the gift of free will which He gave man in the beginning, just to save Jesus. This will amount to changing the laws of creation or the laws of God which are unchangeable. God is perfect and thus unchangeable; and so are His laws.

Option(3) Is the only option that was left for Jesus who would not deny His father or pray that the laws of God be changed, i.e. pray that God will interfere with the free will of man. Accepting death on the cross rather than denying His words would show mankind the validity of His words. Indeed many people, including Mary became convined that Jesus was the son of God when they saw that in the midst of His painful crucification He would not retrieve His words or deny His origin. With His death on the cross He set a seal to His conviction that He was the son of God; and thereby gave His words a validity that His followers vowed to live by it for the rest of thier exsistance. Actually later some of His followers, like Peter, would rather be killed than deny Jesus. So had Jesus not accepted death on the cross, had he ran away or denied His origin, his followers would have ran away too or discard all his teachings; the Truth He brought would have vanished like words spoken in the wind. But I digress.


Now back to the prayer at Gethsemane
The first part of the prayer: "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me, " is a confirmation of the fact that Jesus would rather not be crucified. Crucification was not the will of God. But since crucification stood between Him and fulfilling the will of the father, he sought for a way within the will of the father to fulfill His mission and avoid crucification. "O my Father, if it be possible, " In other words, 'Is there a possibility or is there a chance that I can still fulfil your will without being crucified.' Just as I once asked myself, if there is possible way that I can to work or walk to my car without daring the extreemly cold weather.


The second part of the prayer: "Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt," is a confirmation of the fact that Jesus would do anything that is within the will of His father; He would do the will of the father no matter what. "Nevertheless not as I will," is a figure of speech which signified that Jesus would not even consider any option contrary to the will of the father. In other words, 'even though I dont want to be crucified, and no matter how pianful crucification may be, I will go through it if thats the only way I can save this mission and thus fulfill your will.' It doesn’t show a contrary will; because the will of God, in the first place, was not to crucify Jesus. Jesus was sent that mankind would listen to Him and not crucify Him. Salvation lies in His words and not in His crucification. From this we can see how much Jesus loved the father and how much he loved manking. A son that would rather suffer than jeopadise the mision his father sent him is indeed a worthy son.


Another analogy may suffice. If my will is to go and visit a man another country. In the midst of the long and inconveniencing journey, I may ask myself, "Is there any other way for me to visit this man without making this inconveniencing journey?" Or I can say to myself, "If it is possible for me to visit this man without this journey, I would do it." This does not mean that a different will other than the will to visit the man has excited in me.

Even while disciplining my son, I would always ask myself, "Is there any way I can make this child learn his lessons without spanking him?" My will which remains unflinching is to teach my son whom I love so much; but sometimes in order to accomplish this(teach my some) I am faced with the option of spanking him. I express reluctance at this option which I would rather not do because it is not part of my will; but I am forced to do it because it is the only way I could remain faithful to my mission of teaching him the lessons of life. I will rather go through the emotional pains of spanking my son than to leave him to grow up a bad child.

This does not entail another will or an opposing will. It only shows reluctance at facing an unimportant, unnecessary, and inconveniencing episode, which was not part of the will in the first place.

Thanks

@Iden
Thanks for your questions. Once again your questions touched the core of the matter, and answering your questions will necessitate a very long post but I will do my best to keep this post short.

Before I proceed I must get you acquainted with three fundamental laws of creation. By laws of creation I don't mean only the physical laws but rather the law that exist in all creation, from the hightest spiritual realm to the lowest physcal realm. The physical laws(laws of physics), which science can observe are only a manifestation of the laws of creation. Now here are the three laws.

1) The Law of reciprocal action. This law ensures that everything that one gives out returns to him/her. So people call it the law of sowing and reaping. Christ explained this law by "What a man sows that he shall reap!" This law manifests in the physical ream in so many ways; example, if I plant corn, I can only hervest corn. I cannot hervest yam where I planted only corn. If I push against a wall, the wall pushes back it me. Science call this action and reaction. Newtons third law of motion is actually a physical manifestation of the Law of reciprocal action.

2) The Law of attraction of homogeneous species. In creation species of like nature group together or attract each other. In everything, we see this law manifesting, even in choosing your friends, you chose them or get along with them because there is something homogeneous between you and them, be it character, age, temperaments and etc. Sayings like, "birds of the same father flock together," are based on this law. Cattles group together, lions in their own groups, humans in their own groups and etc; and even in this groups their are also sub groups; in all this we observe the manifestation of the law of attraction of homogeneous species. I can go on and on, but I hope this gives you the hint.

3)The law of Spiritual gravity. In creation everything stays at a height or depth that corresponds to their density or weight. It logically follows that species of the same wight will find them selves in the same height or plane. The denser or heavier  a species is, the further way it sinks or it is pushed below the spiritual heights which is the lightest species in creation. What science call Gravity or gravitational potential is only a physical manifestation of the Law of Spiritual gravity. I will explain this law further as I answer your questions.

Also to make my explanation easier to grasp, I will also acquaint you of a fourth law.
4) The Law of circulation, The law of returns, or The Law of completion. In creation, at the completion of every, the substance must return to the origin. Like all the laws of creation, this manifests in all parts of creation. We see its manifestation in the physical realm, for example, the physical body. From the food we eat which comes from the nutrients in the earth, we build or nourish our bodies, at the cycle is completed when the bodies and decays and returns back to neutrents in the earth. Even the entire physical world started as a primordial seed which after passing through the four stages of, (1)blossoming, (2)ripeness, (3)over ripeness, (4) decay. At the completion of the decay, the components return back to a Primordial seed and then the process repeats itself. Another manifestation of this law is the journey of the human spirit, which started as a spirit germ in the spiritual realm; at the completion of the journey or the cycle the spirit will return back to the spiritual realm either as a fully conscious human spirit or as an unconscious spirit germ. Expressions like "as it was in the beginning do shall it be in the end," are based on this Law of circulation.

Idehn:
@justcool

What is causing this kind structure and why can one not go from physical to spiritual based on this description.

It is the working of the law of Spiritual gravity in conjunction with the law of attraction of homogeneous species that causes or allows the creation to have that structure. The spiritual being the lightest stays at the top, closest to the vicinity of God; and based on the law of attraction of homogeneous species, all that is spiritual (spiritual substances) are attracted together and form the spiritual planes.

The animistic substances, being denser than the spiritual, and not being homogeneous to the spiritual, can separate from the spiritual plane and form the animistic realm below the spiritual.

The process repeats itself till the heaviest(physical) separated itself and formed realms at the bottom.

All these substances or species came into being from the radiation of God. At first there was only God and His radiations. These radiations could not take on form in the Divine realm. But when God said "let there be light," or when God decided to create, He allowed these radiations to leave the Divine plane. Only outside the Divine plane, outside the enormous heat and pressure from of the Divine plane could these radiations take on form. In other words, only outside the heat of the Divine plane could these radiations congeal and separate into components, which are Spiritual, animistic, ethereal, and gross matter; very broadly speaking though.

The first component of this radiation of God to take on form in the vicinity of the Divine plane is the Primordial spiritual. The Primordial Spiritual is the strongest component of the radiation; among all the components of the radiation of God, the Primordial Spiritual could bear the greatest heat and pressure, hence it took separated from the radiation first and took on form nearest to the Divine plane.

You can now see why the physical cannot ascend to the ethereal talkless of the animistic. The physical being the densest, and having the least ability to bear Divine heat, could only separate and take on form at a distance very far from the Divine plane.
The physical cannot take on form in the ethereal because the ethereal is at a distance closer to the Divine than the normal zone of physical. Thus if a physical objects ventures into the ethereal, the physical objects will be consumed by the heat and pressure. This violets the law of circulation, because the physical object cannot complete its circle in the ethereal realm; the physical object started by coming together of physical atoms to molecules, at the completion of its circle of existence it must return back to physical molecules then back to atoms in the physical world. No atom of the physical world can rise into the ethereal. Also the physical cannot ascend beyond the physical realm because this will amount to a violation of the law of gravity; the density of the physical will never allow it the buoyancy to fly up into the ethereal. Such will also violate the law of attraction of homogeneous species because the physical object is held by the attraction of the rest of the physical world; the ethereal will not attract it because it is physical and bears nothing homogeneous to the ethereal. For a physical object to fly into a higher realm, many laws of creation will be violated. The Laws of creation cannever be violated.
So by this explanation you can now see why it is very impossible for the physical to fly into the animistic. By the same token, the ethereal can never fly into the animistic; neither can the animistic ever fly into the spiritual; nor can the spiritual fly into the Divine.

But the law of Spiritual gravity can allow a species to sink into a lower plane; the object of the higher plane or higher species will have to cloth itself with the substance of the lower plane or lower species. The density of its cloak, allows the cloaked alien higher species to maintain that lower height albeit being attracted or pulled upwards by the rest of its higher species above due to the law of attraction of homogeneous species. This being pulled upwards is balanced by the pull of the environment on the cloak. Thus a man on earth, for example, his spirits is still pulled or attracted to the spiritual plane; but this spirit cannot float back to the spiritual because the density of the physical body and the attraction of his physical body to the rest of the physical world would not let it the spirit float away. Only when the physical body dies is the soul freed and consequently will float in the ethereal environment corresponding to its weight. And if not reincarnation is required, the soul may one day be freed from its ethereal covering, then wearing only the animistic body it float into the animistic realm. Then one day, if the soul is so blessed, it will be freed from its animistic body and will float back into the spiritual ream. By returning to the spiritual realm, the spirit complets its journey and fulfills the unavoidable law of circulation.

Idehn:
For example, oil floats atop water due to the balancing of electrostatic forces and gravitational forces. Gravity sourced from the Earths center of mass, forces the two into contact but the internal electrostatic attractions within both and the electrostatic repulsion between both keep them separated. However, with sufficient energy the equilibrium can easily be broken. What is the source of the gravity holding this system together and what direction is it eliminating from with respect to our universe. Since the physical is at the bottom of the hierarchy, this mass would have to be physical as well so could we sense it and examine it?

The gravity that you described above as sourced from the center of the earth, in other the earth's gravity is only a physical manifestation of the Law of gravity that rests in creation, the Law of spiritual gravity.

Actually gravity is not sourced from the center of the earth; gravity existed in the physical realm even before the earth was formed. By the same token, gravity existed even before the physical realm came into being.

The source of gravity is God; but since we are dealing with creation(From the spiritual realm to the earth) which is only the work of God and which God is not part of, let us trace the origin of gravity in creation. In the Primordial Spiritual realm there is power center through which the power of God flows into creation. The currents emanating from this power center find their way to the border of the spiritual realm and even beyond. These currents are very minute spirit particles, lets just call the spirits dusts. These spirit particles are the lowest ramification of spiritual substances, so small and weakly attracted to the rest of the spiritual species that they can fly beyond the boundary of the spiritual realm into the lower planes. Just like dusts of wood, in the carpinters shop, fly away as the capenter uses his saw to cut through a wood. The activity of the carpenter forces the wood dusts to fly around in the air; this is an analogy though. Likewise the powerful activity of the power center in the spiritual forces dusts of spiritual particles to fly, creating a current of spiritual particles that flows away from this power center. As soon as these currents enter the animistic realm, they attract dusts of animistic substances. All that is spiritual has an attracting effect not only on the spiritual but on all lower species. By attraction dusts of animistic substance, these currents are covered by animistic substance. This covering causes density which allows them to sink further into the animistic; as they sink the get more covered, thus more dense until they reach the bottom border of the animistic and sink into the ethereal. The process continues until they reach the physical realm. On reaching the physical realm they receive covering form loose and minutest substances of the physical. It is these spiritual particles wearing their several coverings that the elementary particles in the physical realm. The atoms are made up of these.

It is this compressing, densification, or covering of the sinking spiritual dusts that gives rise to gravity. Therefore the source of gravity in creation is from above, form the power center on the Primordial spiritual. It is this sinking current of particles or energy that pushes objects, planes and etc away from above, away from the spiritual heights. This is gravity.  

This is also what gives rise to what science has observed as gravitational potential. Science has observed that the rate at which two bodies attract each other is directly related to their masses and inversely proportional to their distances. This is as far as science can go.

It is actually the attractive power of the spiritual dust at the core of the substances that make up the atom that attract. It is also the source of the energy in matter. So a large body like the earth, having a lot of mass or a lot of atom carry enormous attractive force because these atoms are made up of these elementary particles that have spiritual dusts as their core.

This is why I have always said that you can have mass without energy and you cant have energy without mass. In creation, mass(particle or substance) and energy are inseparable. Pure energy without substance exist only with God; once this energy leaves God, or once God radiates this energy away from Him, it receives a covering. first Divine substantial covering, spiritual covering, animistic covering, ethereal covering, etc and finally physical covering.

As these spiritual dust particles shade their coverings the rise higher and finally return back to the spiritual realm. Also, as they shade their coverings, the spiritual core shines out more and consequently, the particle becomes more energetic. This is what happens in radioactive decay.

I know this is hard to follow but I will stop here and wait for your questions.

Idehn:
Also what is keeping these planes from collapsing into each other or being squeezed into object similar to black holes between the other planes? Can we sense and study it? Based upon your description, what is stopping a physical object (such as a asteroid or a person) from just flying into the animistic plane and getting a coating of that substance? Afterwords flying into the other planes getting more coatings until it can interact with the spiritual plane. Since our universe is not a black hole, why can you not able to gather enough energy to escape the gravitational limitations in the same way space craft do? Is energy(or some notion of it) not what is being used by spiritual objects to go in the reverse direction. Spirit would still have to contend with the pressure from heavier objects pushing them to the top in the same way that lighter than air crafts work. In order for the crafts come back down to earth they either need to shed the lighter substance such as helium(with energy) or acquire weight (with energy). or become very dense (with energy).

I believe I answered these questions in the answer that I gave in this post.

Idehn:
The system seems very empirical and accessible to scientific inquiry. May inquires as to your means of studying and understanding the system you have given here?

The laws of creation as they manifest in the physical realm is accessible to scientific inquiries. However science on deals deal with the physical; and science uses only the brain which is a physical organ in their inquires. Anything above the physical is impenetratable and inaccessible to science because, owing to the difference in species, the brain being physical cannot apprend spiritual things. If science wishes to go beyond the physical, they must be will willing to employ their non-physical organs, their ethereal, animistic and spiritual organs.

Some of the ancient people where able to go futher than the physical in their inquires; hence they achieved feats that our scientists today marvel at. They were able to move heavy stones without machinery; they knew how to make heavy things become light, antigravity. What I explained here about the nature of gravity gives a clue of how antigravity can be achieved.

The man of today has become so destructive, arrogant and proud; this is why such knowledge has been hidden from him.

Idehn:
Again, you have not told me anything about what God IS that would necessitate its existence at the top of this strata. I do not know anything about God or the metric that you are using to say he is at the top. Without a definition, I do not know if God IS composed of matter or any other substance you have posited. Without that, how can possibly judge its position in this system. The metric for position in this system is ultimately derived from the ability to interact gravitational with other objects i.e what you are composed of. God is not defined in anyway to judge how well it interacts via gravity because it is not defined at all. You could define God as the top of this strata but that would be equating God with the lightest substance in this system you are positing(spirit) which I do not believe that is what you are trying to say. By doing that the God just means a really substance that cannot interact directly with matter.

I do not think your example is suitable unless the pillar was a composite material they use in cars. One could postulate that there is another layer on the outside but if you cannot say what that something IS how do I know you can tell the difference between existence and non existence. How, can you know something IS without at some level knowing what it IS. For example, if I found a strange glowing substance sitting on the ground. I would at least know that it IS composed of some form of matter(because sitting on the ground) can can interact with the universe via electromagnetism(because it glows). If I could not even tell you one thing about it, how could you distinguish the "something" I said I saw from anything, everything, or nothing.

Perhaps you would understand me better if I tell you that I do not know the nature of God, and I don't think it is possible for a human being to know the nature of God or to define God.

All definitions will be a mockery of God or an insult to his unapproachable majesty and perfection.

I cannot define God.

Idehn:
This got a bit lengthy. Thanks and as always I look forward to your reply.

Mine is even lengthier, and I apologise. Thanks and remain blessed.

LOL@Deepsight.

You seem to have completely deviated from the point of the thread. Before we go any further, let me remind you of how this thread started:

A gentleman in another thread said,

"In meditation u are required to visualize which is a form of controlled thoughts and taught by mystics and some pastors."

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-442544.0.html#msg6006754

The thoughts that we are talking about are that type that is explained above by the gentleman who started the other thread.

I narrowed down the 'thought' that we are talking about by giving you definitions. I know that the word 'thought' can mean so many things even ideas.
The thoughts that we are talking about are that which emanates from the brain; that which is visualized during meditation; not concepts or ideas.

Deep Sight:
We seem to have a fundamentally different conception of what thoughts are. I suppose that is the thrust of this thread anyway: to iron that difference out if possible.

I am afraid that the definitions you set out above are altogether insufficient for the purpose of this discussion for a number of reasons.

It doesn’t lie with us or our opinions to decide on which ‘thought’ we are talking about. The gentleman who started the initial thread, from which this thread branched off, has already defined what he meant by 'thoughts.'

He narrowed it down to visualization and 'controlled thoughts.'

Deep Sight:
In the first place let me say very carefully that – existence itself is a consolidation of infinite ideas, conceptions, realities and possibilities. The apprehension of any idea, the conception of anything is what I would refer to as a thought. For me it would be useless semantics to quibble over the source of such thoughts – for I am well convinced that non-physical beings may also have ideas and conceptions: - may apprehend ideas and may conceive things - and it is certain that having ideas and conceptions are analogous to having thoughts.

What you are talking about here is not the 'thoughts' that we mean. What you described above are ideas, conceptions, and etc; not controlled thoughts or that which is visualized.

I have already explained to you that non-physical beings do have ideas and conceptions and also process ideas and conception; however, the 'thoughts' that we are talking about is that which is produced in the physical brain.

The brain gives ideas and conceptions a fine gross material cloak; it is these fine gross material cloaks that we call thoughts, controlled thoughts, or that which can be visualized by the brain.

By the same token, the mouth gives ideas or thoughts a medium gross material covering, which we call, words. Words originate from the mouth, but the idea they convey do not come from the mouth. The same way, thoughts originate from the brain but the idea they convey do not originate from the brain.

Deep Sight:
1. It is a given that God itself has ideas which it conceives. Such ideas manifest as creation and acts of will of the transcendental God. It would be nothing but a wasteful focus on semantics to claim that such ideas are cannot be described as the thoughts of God.

The above is correct, and if you think that it is contrary to what I have been saying, then you need to reread my posts.

We use the expression 'thoughts of God' as a figure of speech, becuase our words are inadiquate to describe God. You must not think that 'thoughts of God' imply that God does thinking or intelectual activity like we humans do.

For example we have the expression "word of God." Does this imply that God actually speak like we do on earth? If so, what is the language that God speak? LOL

If you believe that God's ideas manifests as creation which is tangible substance, then why do you shy away from accepting that thoughts of man also manifest as tangible substance and are also made of tangible substance.

Havent you ever heard of the expression, "as above so below."

Deep Sight:
2. God does not have a physical brain.

3. As God does not have a physical brain and yet is capable of ideas and conceptions it is manifest to me that in spiritual matters a physical brain is not required for possession of ideas and conceptions which is what thoughts are..

In spiritual matters the brain, which is physical is not needed for the spirit to process ideas and conceptions; but if the spirit needs to anchor this ideas and conceptions in the physical world, then the brain is needed. Because owing to difference in specie, the spirit can not directly deal with matter; the spirit needs a material tool(the physical body) to deal with matter. The brain is that part of the physical body where ideas and conceptions coming from the soul is cloaked in material substance or given material forms, thoughts.

Deep Sight:
This is a good analogy regarding the relationship of the spirit and the body but does nothing to describe the nature of a thought. We are agreed that the physical is a tool of expression. We are also agreed that it is a living tool which is animated by the spirit/ soul. The question is – what is the nature of thoughts which the living man has?.

I have said it many times, thoughts are fine gross matter, or better said they are made up of fine gross matter; they are tangible, have form and even weight, although far far lighter than the lightest coarse gross material substance(physical).

Expressions like 'weighed down by a the thought' are not just figures of speech but they are from the sensing of a reality in creation. 

People have seen the forms of thoughts; the phantoms that men of the ancients used to see are thought forms. Some people still see them today. Ignorant people consider them gods or etc. Owing to homogeneity in species, thoughts can influence physical matter(coarse gross matter).

Science is not very far from dealing with thoughts. Science already has recognized that thoughts carry energy. And where there is energy, there is mass. I know this may be hard to swallow but if you like I can elaborate on it. In-fact in the near future you can be able to turn on your TV with your thoughts. Certain electronics are already invented which can be controlled by thoughts; people with modern electric posterior legs can move it with thoughts. 

About mass and energy, when opportunity presents itself, we can go deeply into it. And compare the relationship between energy and gravity.

Deep Sight:
1. We are agreed that the thoughts cannot be physical matter: physical matter has definite physical properties which thoughts clearly do not possess. In this we can find safe landing with the scientific definition of matter which I am aware you are very much at home with: without further ado it is obvious that that definition may never be applied to an immaterial thing such as a thought.

Thoughts are not immaterial. Thoughts are matter; although fine gross matter. Science deals with only physical matter or coarse gross matter. At the moment, science only considers thoughts as energy; it cannot easily be disqualified as matter by science, neither can it be categorically proved by science to matter. Just like 'light' which some scientists like to consider made up of particles(matter) while others consider it just a wave. It behaves like both.

Deep Sight:
2. Ethereal matter. What is ethereal matter? I would like to believe that it is a reference to substance in the ethereal plane which is not animate.

Everything in the ethereal realm is made up of ethereal matter.

Deep Sight:
Now in this it seems to me that you are confusing the physical brain itself for the living ideas and conceptions that are transmitted through it.

Please show me where I confused the brain with the living ideas that flow through it.
The brain simply cloaks the impressions it receives from the soul; the brain cloaks these impressions with fine gross material substance. This is what happens when we are thinking. Or better said, the brain creates a fine gross material forms or rendering of impressions which come from the soul, the beyond, or the senses. It is this fine gross material forms or rendering of impressions that are thoughts. Thoughts originate from the brain.

Deep Sight:
Let us take a quick example. A man is able to receive revelations or transmissions from the spiritual realm. In coming to apprehend what is transmitted and in articulating it, the man uses his physical brain. That does not mean that that which was transmitted was matter: for such must lead us to the absurdity of suggesting that God sends matter down to people as revelations.
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I find it very absurd that you think that I suggested that thoughts(fine gross matter) come from the spiritual plane or from God. That completely negates my explanation. Drawing such conclusion only prove to me that you did not read my posts. I hope I am not wasting time making long posts. If you don read them, then let me know so that I can save my precious time and energy.

I will repeat what I have been saying in other words. The man that you described above receives spiritual impressions from the spiritual realm to his spirit. However, if this man wants to anchor or replicate these impressions in the physical world he will either speak it, or write it in a book. This is where the brain comes in. For the man to write it in a book, first he will have to give it a gross material cloak; this he does by thinking about it. And this will only make it possible for the brain to articulate it and write it down.

You have to think about the impressions received before you write or speak it. Thinking, writing and speaking all belong the physical world. The spirit makes an impression on the soul, which in turn makes an impression on the brain; based on the nature of the impression, the brain produces thoughts, then sends signals to the mouth to speak or the hands to write.

I will give an example, when you push down your gas pedal; you are not sending motion to your tires. You are only sending gas(chemical) into your engine combustion cylinders. The engine is designed to convert chemical energy to mechanical energy.

Saying that God sent matter to the man you described above is like saying that the driver sends mechanical energy to the tires.

Another example, if you plug your Iron into the electric outlet; when you switch on the iron you allow electricity onto the iron. The iron is designed to convert electrical energy to heat energy. The source of the heat is the iron and not the electrical outlet.

Saying that God sent matter to the man you described above is like saying that you send heat to the iron when you turned it on. Wrong!! What you sent into the iron is electrical energy not heat.

Likewise what the man received from the spiritual plane is spiritual not material.

Deep Sight:
Good, so between Horse, Soldier and Chariot, where are the thoughts?.

The thoughts are from the horse.

Deep Sight:
1. The Soldier is the spirit

2. The Horse is the Body

3. Would you say that the thoughts are –

a. From the Soldier or

b. From the Horse

From the horse processing the impression that it received from the soldier. You can liken 'thoughts' to the movement of the horse. It originates from the horse; or it is the horse's rendering of the impression it received from the soldier.

Deep Sight:
Clearly the thoughts are from the Soldier and the Horse is merely a tool in that regard. Thus in the same way the thoughts of a sentient being cannot be the product of gross matter. That is a contradiction in terms. That amounts to suggesting that physical things are what give life to spiritual things instead of the other way round.

Wrong, Impressions came from the soldier while the movements came from the horse.
‘Thoughts’, which is represented in my analogy by the movement of the horse, originates from the horse.

I never said that physical things give life to spiritual things. From where do you deduce these wired conclusions!!! Definitely not from my post. The physical can only act as vessels or cloaks covering non-physical things.

Deep Sight:
Given that this is correct still does nothing to indicate that the thoughts produced by the brain are physical things. Clearly they are not physical things for they do not have the properties of physical matter. Nor can they be classed as ethereal matter for they are live fluid ideas and conceptions which grow and change.

I never said that thoughts are physical(coarse gross material) things; thoughts are fine gross matter.

Neither have I ever said that thoughts are ethereal matter. Thoughts are matter, only fine gross matter. Despite appearing weightless when compared with physical things, the lightest thought is still heavier than anything ethereal is. There are many species of matter; I have taken time to explain this to you earlier. But I am not sure that you read my posts.

Even the words you speak have forms which are medium gross matter and operate as tangible things in the realms of medium gross matter or astral plane.

All these forms, either forms of thoughts or forms of words can condescend and have an effect on physical matter.

You see now why visualization and meditation work. I only offer explanations here; in no way do I advocate these practices: visualization and meditation. One who knows the laws of creation would avoid such practices like the plague; they can be very harmful.

Deep Sight:
I agree with this analogy entirely, but yet again this does nothing to show that the thoughts derived from the brain are material things.

I think you are confusing the thoughts with the brain itself.

Is the brain a thought?

Or does it process thoughts?

I would think the latter.

The brain processes subtle impressions from the soul to produce thoughts. Simple and short.

Deep Sight:
Now this is the argument I will put to you: namely that it is not apt to describe something as being material, matter, or physical simply because it is processed by or through the physical brain and you must note the following very carefully –

1. The brain processes emotions – does this mean that happiness, jealousy, anger – are all physical, material things that have the properties of physical matter? I ask you: is happiness matter? Is anger physical matter? ? ?   

Here you have grouped many things into one. Genuine happiness is not an emotion per-se. I know that the word could have many meanings but nevertheless, genuine happiness streams from the soul. It can have a material covering and operate like an entity in the planes of matter.

Happiness, a volition of the spirit, that streams from the soul can take on form in the ethereal plane, having animistic substance as its innermost core. The same impression can impress the brain to think, thus mold forms of happiness with fine gross matter. These, the forms molded by the brian(in other words thought) are matter all the way to their core, they are phantoms and are completely material.

Both types of beings (benevolent phantoms and benevolent ethereal entities) have been seen by clairvoyant people.

Happiness that streams from the spirit and is directed upwards, i.e. gratitude to God, can take on form in the spiritual planes and its influences can rise above the spiritual plane. This is how genuine prayers find their way up to the feet of the creator, God.

The same is applicable to anger, except that anger can never rise above the ethereal realm. Strictly speaking anger is ealien to the spirit, aggression is a quality of the animistic not the spirit. But due to spiritual indolence and lookwarmness some spirits degernarate to indulging or producing ealien radiations like anger.

Anger that streams from the soul can take on form in the ethereal plane, having animistic substance as its innermost core. The same impression can impress the brain to think angry thought, thus mold forms of anger with fine gross matter. These, the forms molded by the brian(in other words thought)are matters all the way to their core; they are malevolent phantoms and are completely material like thoughts.

So yes the emotion that are processed in the brain are thoughts and are made up of matter. It could be fine gross matter or medium gross matter.

An anger directed to a person takes on form and rushes towards that person who can either repel it or let it attach to him and harm him either emotionally or physically through condensation. It can only attach itself to the person it is intended for if the person carries a homogeneous emotion in him or if he is lukewarm spiritually.

Form of anger belongs to one of the malovelent entities(beings) called demons. Furries, for example a forms of anger. Men have seen furries and have battled with them; and have seen how destroctive and harmful furries are. Some have asked why God created such destructive beings. The answer is that God never created them; they are works or men.

So mark my words carefully: By thinking angry thoughts, one forms malovent phantoms. If the anger is so deep that it emanets from the soul(the core of which is the spirit), then in addition to the phantom, as the anger arises from the soul it forms a demon.

This explains how witchcraft and etc work; and this also explains why it is possible to use physical items like charms to repel them. They are all made up of matter; phantoms are matter all the way and easily destroyed, while demons carry an animistic core covered by a material cloak or body. Demons could be very powerful.

You must cease to regard any thing as being immaterial or not having a form.  Everything even our words and thoughts take on forms and are material.

Deep Sight:

2. The brain processes a consciousness of self – does this mean that your consciousness of self is itself a material thing? Is your consciousness of self physical matter? Does that consciousness have the properties of matter? Can you touch it? Is it not entirely immaterial, notwithstanding that it is processed through the material brain?

The brain does not process self-consciousness. Consciousness stems from the innermost core: from the spirit in case of man. After physical death, when the brain had fallen way along the physical body, consciousness remains with the departed man.

Consciousness is a manifestation of mobility; thus life. I have already explained to you that the peculiar thing about matter is that it lacks self-mobility. Matter can never become conscious. Phantoms, which are material entities function like programmed chips; they actually lack self-consciousness.

Deep Sight:

3. Finally – and this is the clincher – the brain actually handles the entire existenceand sojourn of the spirit in the material world: in that it articulates the world around it, stores its memories, processes its self consciousness, its thoughts and its feelings, communicates with the world around it and with other beings within the world: all of these the brain does as a tool for the spirit which we agree on: does the fact that the brain virtually processes the spirits physical sojourn, RENDER THE SPIRIT A MATERIAL THING? DOES THAT RENDER IT A PHYSICAL THING? ? OR EVEN ETHEREAL MATTER? NO! NO! ! NO! ! !

The brain does not deal with the spirit; neither can the brain handle anything spiritual. The brain receives impressions from the soul, and not directly from the spirit.

What then is the soul? The soul is the spirit cloaked in all the material bodies except the physical. So the soul is a spirit wearing animistic body and ethereal body; a departed soul may or may not wear an astral body depending on far it has transitioned into the beyond.

The spirit makes impression on the animistic body, the animistic body makes impression on the ethereal body, and the ethereal body makes impression on the astral body, which in turn makes impression on the physical body or the brain.

The brain can only work with impression received from the astral body because the astral body itself is also gross matter like the brain. The astral body is medium gross matter.

Deep Sight:
Accordingly I need to make the point clear: that something is processed by or through the brain is no reason to term it matter or material or physical: otherwise the spirit itself will be termed matter, and every emotion will be termed matter and we will find canon for the strange notion that living fluid thoughts are matter.

The brain being made of matter can only deal with matter. Success of any kind can only be achieved by the same kind; this is a manifestation of the law of homogeneous species.

Also, the spirit is not processed by or through the brain. I don't know how you arrived at this conclusion. People are encouraged to grasp spiritual teachings with their intuition(or their spirit) because these teachings originate in a world too alien for the brain. Trying to understand spiritual things with you brain is a waste of time.

The brain processes impressions from the soul; although these impressions can be said to have originated from the spirit, but they have to pass through transitional bodies and for the brain to handle them.

Deep Sight:
Very good. This will help elucidate the point I am making. Here you have stated that two things may speak to one’s thoughts – the senses and the spirit.

The mistake I believe you are making is that you are equating the senses with thoughts – whereas it is rather obvious that thoughts are the living and fluid ideas which emanate from the man – either from his spirit, senses, or whatever. The spirit is NOT the thought, just as surely as the senses are NOT the thought.

The thought is a living fluid idea or conception. You seem to articulate things in such a fashion that amounts to suggesting that the physical brain is itself thought. No, it processes thoughts.

The thoughts that we are talking about here is not a 'living fluid idea'(whatever you mean by that) or conception. The thoughts that we are talking about are that which results from the thinking you do during visualization. Remember the gentleman talked about visualization; he used the expression 'controlled thoughts.'

Are you familiar with the process of visualization, which the gentleman asked of? Let’s say that you want to be a lawyer in the future. You sit down and imagine yourself as a lawyer or you visualize yourself as a lawyer. This is a form of meditation that mystics teach and so many people claimed have worked for them. Like I said earlier I do not advocate such practices; but I will give a glimpse of how it works.

When you are visualizing or meditating you are actually creating those things you visualize, you are forming them in the planes of fine or medium gross matter. These things are real and tangible in those planes, and being gross matter they can have a direct influence on physical(coarse gross matter).

They can condescend into the physical by forming an energy around you. With their influx they influence the physical to form a physical representation of them. Honestly I don't want to go deep into this issue, in fear of arousing poeple's curiosity to indulge in such practices which can cause great harm. The ancients, especially the ancients Egyptians were very versed in this.

Deep Sight:
Thus as I stated the brain processes the spirit’s self-awareness, consciousness and activity in the physical world.

Does that make the spirit gross or ethereal matter? Certainly not.

Like I said earlier this conclusion is wrong. A better conclusion would be that the spirit(actually the soul) experiences the physical world through the physical body or through the brain.

Deep Sight:
Do you suggest to me that a disembodied spirit may never have a negative volition aside from that which the physical brain contrives? If that were the case then all spirit beings would never have any dark or negative volitions or propensities – since they do not have physical brains? Is this what you put forward?.

Honestly I do not know where you get these conclusions from. Definitely not from my post. Volitions whether good or bad do not arise from the brain. Volitions arise from the spirit.

Phantoms whether good or bad only arise from the brain. They are forms of our thoughts.

Forms of good volitions are benevolent begins; while forms of bad volitions are what we call demons.

Every volition of the spirit, whether good or bad, makes an impression on the animistic and takes on form. The spirit can make use of the principal neutral power in creation while forming a volition. Thus forms of spiritual volitions are very strong, they are animated by an animistic core which is enveloped in an ethreal covering and operate in the ethreal realm.

Please read my posts.

Deep Sight:
1. Would the nature of a thought-form of love be different from the nature of a volition-form of love AND MORE CRITICALLY APT TO THE DISCOURSE –

Yes. The thought form is only a phantom; it carries not animistic substance as its animating core. It is not as powerful as a volition, and only operates in the planes of fine gross matter. Although it can condescend and affect the physical like I explained above.

A volition is strong entity that caries animistic substance as its innermost core. Volitions have forms are formed or made by the Spirit. The spirit owing to its nature can tap into the principal neutral power of God in creation.

The brain however cannot tap into this power. Consequently forms(phantoms) arising from thoughts made by the brain are not as strong as forms of spiritual volitions.

Deep Sight:
2. WOULD EITHER FORM BE A MATERIAL THING?

The question is if those thought-forms are matter.

Yes. Forms of volitions have material covering and an animistic core and hence are living things. Forms of thoughts are made up of matter all the way to their core and hence are not really living.

Deep Sight:
Frankly, I understand this: and I am in step with it: unfortunately it misses the question. The question is whether thoughts are matter.

Yes thoughts are matter; only fine gross matter, and not physical matter.


Thanks and as always, Muchu respect!

@Idehn

Well, lets leave the issue of definition and knowing God alone. The word 'definition' and to 'know' something mean different things to both of us.

All I was saying is that what a human being can tell about God is only the individuals perception of God and not what God is. Likewise the way a dog sees a man, is the dogs perception of man and not what that man is.

Idehn:
The problems I stated earlier make it hard to understand how the spirit relates to God. From your definition spirit, it is a substance that is like matter(can form trees, animals and creatures) but cannot interact with matter. However, again without a definition of what God IS what meaningful comparisons/relationship can be drawn between God and Spirit. What would be the metric of these comparisons?

Before I treat the above I must treat your next question first, then I will return to this.

Idehn:
This needs some clarification.
If spirit cannot interact with the material universe how would cloak help resolve the issue. The spirit could not interact with the material cloak any better than anything else material world. Furthermore what about the body which is just an special kind of organization of protons,neutrons, and electrons would allow it to make contact with spirit any better than any other grouping of these same particles. Right now it sounds like you are saying that matter cannot make contact with the spirit but at the same time can make contact with the spirit(A=/=B & A=B). I guess from your description of animistic substances, this would also apply.

Very fair question!! I am happy that you raised this question, it shows that you folllowed me closely.

First, I would not use the word 'interact'; it depends on what you mean by 'interact.' The spirit can pass through matter without leaving any impression, that is what I said.

But I get your question; and I rephrase it thus: How can the spirit make use of the physical body, when the spirit cannot make contact with matter? The answer in two words is: Through transitional bodies. But I will not leave it at this, I will further explain.

The spirit does not directly wear the physical body; the difference between spirit and physical is too great to allow this.  Between the spirit and the physical body there are many bodies and transitional bodies.

Nature or Creation does not allow any gaps. The Planes of creation are arranged from the lightest at the highest level and the heaviest at the bottom. This arrangement is done so minutely, that they fit into each other. The heaviest spiritual closely resembles the lightest animistic, and the heaviest animistic resembles the lightest ethereal. This is the way it is arranged all the way down to the bottom(the physical)

All the planes are arranged according to the weight, by the law of gravity. This law exists in all parts of creation, and no just the physical ream.

While the spirit cannot directly make an impression on the physical; the spirit can make an impression on the lightest animistic. The lightest animistic can make an impression on the medium animistic, when then can make an impression on the haveyest animistic; this in turn can make an impression on the lightest ethereal and etc.

Remember that the spirit germs or seedlings issued from the lowest part of the spiritual realm. Thus you can call them heavy spiritual or the lowest of the spiritual. Once they leave Paradise and sink into the hightest part of the animistic realm, they receive a body homogeneous to the realm, an animistic body.

This allows the spirit germ(wearing an animistic body) to sink further until to gets to the ethereal realm. A repetition of the process occurs at each realm. In the ethereal realm, the spirit, already wearing an animistic body, will put on an ethereal body which will allow it explore the ethereal world till it reaches to or sinks into the gross mathrial realm.

At the gross material realm, the it then puts on an astral body; which then connects it to the physical. 

Each specie can be divided into three major realms or plans. We have fine ethereal matter, medium ethereal matter, and heyvest ethereal matter; likewise in the gross matter we have fine gross matter, medium gross matter(astral), and coarsest or heaveyest gross matter(physical matter).

The lowest of each specie resembles the highest of the lower specie; the is allows the lowest of the higher to make contact or border with the highest of the lower. You why the spirit in addition to all the bodies, need to wear the astral body before it can wear the physical. The astral is next gross matter higher than the coarsest gross matter(physical)

Although astral(medium gross matter) is not haveyest(physical) gross matter, it is still gross matter. Only that it is a little lighter than haveyest gross matter. There is no difference in homogeneity; this is why they can make impression on each other.

So when the physical body die and the soul detaches itself from the both the physical and the astral body, the soul floats into the ethereal realm. When it takes off the ethereal body, the it floats into the animistic realm. When the spirit takes off all the bodies, the lightness of the spirit will allow it to float back into the spiritual realm; just like when you let go of a helium filled baloon, it quickly floats away into the sky. This is gravity at work.

The soul is the spirit wearing all the bodies, except the physical. So only the soul can incarnate into a physical body. The core of the human soul is the spirit, while the core of the animal soul is animistic.

What I said earlier in my previous post was a general outline; I had to make it that way to avoid making a very long post.

Now back to your earlier question--"how the spirit relates to God." In the light of my explanations you now decipher the answer. You can now see why the spirit stands a better chance of knowing of God than the physical. Imagine God at the highest point, the lightest of the lightest; the further away a species is from God the heavier the specie is and the further it's nature is from the nature of God.

You don't need to Know God to know what is far from God, like you seem to imply; all you need to know is the laws of creation and the structure of creation.

I will you an example; One who is familiar with the laws of physics knows that in very tall buildings(skyscrapers), the concrete pillars are usually bigger at the bottom. The base of the pillars are usually very big and wide at the foundation and botton; as the building goes higher, the pillar narrows in width. If you are at the ground floor of such a building, you don't need to visit the top or highest floor to know that at the top the pillars with are narrowest. Now you know that sizewise, the pillars at the bottom is furthermost or most different from the same pillars at the top floor. Likewise I don't need to know the nature of God to know that the physical is furtherest from it.

Idehn:
Along those lines what is it about the spirit that allows it to move between planes of a multiverse? A spiritual being would not be anymore aware of the material universe than a material being would of a spiritual universe because they cannot interact with each other.  Even if some one told you there was another dimension how does that verify it? As a spiritual being there would no mechanism to ever verify it.

I believe that my explanation above have answered this question. The spirit can experience the material world, when the spirit wears a body homogeneous to the material world. This body becomes an instrument which allows the spirit to live in the material world, and through which the spirit experiences the material world.

Idehn:
Thanks for the discussion and I look forward to your response.

Thank you too. I appreciate the fact that you take time and read peoples post very well. The issues that you raised shows that you took time and read my post.

Remain blessed.

vescucci:
Arggh. I lost patience jare. I'll just give my two cents on the much i've read.

E=MC² is my favourite equation. Has it been disproved or people are ignoring it here. But as far as know M not equal to E/C². In order words energy cannot be made to form matter or we do not have the technology yet or I am unaware about it. Consequently, energy cannot be destroyed and matter cannot be created. In the same vein, energy can be created and matter destroyed. Anyways, this is immaterial to the discussion. Analissa talks like a scientist (are you?) and I'd like to know her views (and everyone else's) on antimatter.

Hey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had to search for hours to find the phone number of a math Professor after reading the above.

E=MC2 has not been disproved and never will it ever be disproved because it is a tested theory. Keep in mind that a theory is never proven right. Inventions have been made basset on it. The only thing disputable is the numbers and the ratios of energy to mass. Thus accuracy of the covertion is questionable and not the fact the theory itself which has witstood all scrutinies

Did you read these articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxAZ_FLudKc

http://www.worsleyschool.net/science/files/emc2/emc2.html

If the following link is what you are referring to then you are kidding: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100513043734AAoiCYe


Please if you will be kind enough to provide us with the link where this theory has been disproved. Who is the scientist that did it, where and when? I'm really very eager to learn these facts; it will turn my views around.

thehomer:
I read the article before recommending it to you.

I'm talking about the chemical aspect of the quote. The person holding up the stone is converting chemical energy to mechanical energy which means he is carrying out work.

The major difference is that what you're referring to is mechanical to mechanical transfer of energy but I'm considering the person transferring chemical to mechanical energy.

Also, the very first line of the article implies that mechanical work is a subset of what I'm referring to.

@thehomer,
I wish not to go round and round on this issue. Refer to the definition of work(thermodynamics) in the article you gave:

Thermodynamic work is a generalization of the concept of mechanical work in mechanics.

In thermodynamics, work performed by a system is the quantity of energy transferred by the system to another that is accounted for in a particular way; namely, by changes in the external generalized mechanical constraints on the system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_(thermodynamics)

By holding a stone you have not transferred any energy to the stone as such. The chemical changes in your muscle is a different thing altogether different and immaterial to our argument.
Work is done on the muscle, just as it is perpetually done on any muscle. Even holding your hand up whitout any stone involves thermodynamic work in the muscle. But no work is done between you and the stone. No work is done on the stone.
Also thermodynamics involves two or more systems; the stone in this case is not a system. And if we regard it as a system; then the two systems involved is you(the man holding the stone) and the stone. No work has been done between the man and the stone. And no change, whatsoever has been done on the stone; definitely no chemical change.

Sufice also for me to add that the term thermodynamics came from two terms; 'thermo' and 'dynamics'.

'Thermo' usualy refer to heat, or energy. 'Dynamics' usually refer to movement, motion of bodies, or change.

Without any movement or any change in the system, work has not been done on that system.


That is all I will  say about work(thermodynamics) on this thread; this will derail the thread to much which will be unfair to Deepsight. If you want us to go deeper into this issue, open another thread just for thermodynamics and work. I doubt if such a thread will be appropriate in the religion section.

@Idehn
Sorry about the delay; here are my answer to your question:

Idehn:
@justcool
But you just defined God by saying God IS beyond definition. It unfortunately creates the same peculiar paradox as saying "Nothing can be known for certain". I think there needs to be more to this definition to resolve the paradox such as God it that not within our Universe. By that way God would not be able to be defined any further. However, saying God is beyond definition is itself a definition of what God is.

Man can never know God. The key word here is "know"; to know something is to apprehend clearly and certainly everything about that thing. Once there still remains for you, even the slightest mystery, about that thing, then you don't know that thing.

The difference between man and God is too great; far greater than the difference between man and animal. Each specie can only know its specie and any specie below it; but it cannever know the specie above it.
Thus man being Spirit can know everything that is spiritual(everything in the spiritual plane) and everything below the spiritual plane; but never anything above the spiritual. Knowledge of such(anything above the spiritual plane) can only be revealed to man but he cannever really know all the 'ins' and 'outs' of it.

This is only natural, you can even observe it in your environment. The animal, for example, can never really know man. It can get acquainted of man's behaviour and character; it can know of man but it can never know man. ie an animal cannever know all the 'ins' and 'outs' of man; only man or beings above man can know man. No matter how advanced an animal is, no matter how much time it spends with man, and no matter how much about man one teaches the animal, certain things about man the will perpetually remain a mystery to the animal.

Above the spiritual planes(the lowest part of which is the true home of man) lies the Primordial spiritual planes, and above the Primordial Spiritual planes, lies the Divine planes or planes of Divine substantiality. Yet God is above the Divine planes or planes of Divine substantiality; God is Divine unsubstantiality.  You see the difference man an God is far too much.

Man can know of God; ie man can know the will of God. Because this will of God is placed in creation. What we call the laws of nature or the laws of creation are actually expressions of the will of God. Behind every law in creation stands LOVE and JUSTICE. Through knowing these attributes of God, which can be deduced by observing creation and laws of creation, man can know of God.

Much like, by observing the house you live in, you can know the will or the intention of the architect who designed the house. By noticing that in one of the rooms is equipped by a bath tub, automatically you can deduce that that is the room where the architect wants you to bath. Without ever seeing the architect, you can tell by the shapes of the room, where he intended that you should bath, sleep, cook and eat. You can tell a lot about a man from his work. Thus by a mans work you can know of the man; likewise in observering the laws of nature or the laws of creation(which is a work of God) you can know of God.

To define somthing is to idetify the nature of that thing or to capture the nature of that thing in words; thus to make understandable to the brian. One encounters many problems when one tries to put God under definition. (1)Man cannever identify the nature of God, it is too alien to the nature of man, (2)you cannever capture somthing that does not have a form and, (3)the brian being physical stands the least ground in being able to comprehend it even if one succeds in capturing the nature of God. In creation, the physical is the furthest away from God.

Idehn:
What do you mean by spirit. That is another word that I have yet to see a definition for. I have heard it described as life force and human essences but those terms themselves lack and meaningful definition. Life force for example, for example could mean the fundamental forces of nature related to life such as Gravity, Electromagnetism, Strong Nuclear Force, and Weak Nuclear Force, but I do not think that this is what is meant by spirit. Can you provide a definition of Spirit? With a definition it would certainly help us see how it relates to God.

Spirit is a specie of creation. There are many species in creation-- The Primordial spiritual, Spiritual, Animistic, ethereal matter, and gross matter.
To make the issue simpler, lets just group these species into three -- Spiritual, animistic and matter.

Spiritual worlds or planes lie at the highest part of creation. Being the lightest, the strongest and the most ennobled substances in creation; it resembles most, in creation, the perfection of God. Consequently it is the colsest to the vicinity of God, and being created directly by God, its perfect and pure.

There are two types of spiritual substances or species. The first and most powerful and highest is Primordial spiritual. Followed by Spiritual. Each of these species have many planes in which lives many creatures. Just as you have physical creatures on earth, which is in the physical plane, in the spiritual planes you have spiritual creatures. These are tangible and real creatures-- man, animals, trees, and plants.

Man on earth originated from the lowest part of the Spiritual planes called Paradise. Man left Paradise in his quest for maturity. The physical bodies we have on earth are only coverings. Our innermost core, the real man is the spirit which originated from paradise.

The innermost core of an animals on earth is Animistic, which is another specie in creation like I already explained. They physical bodies of animals are coverings, covering the animistic core.

We wear physical bodies on earth because the earth is in the physical plane. You need a physical covering in-order to function actively in the physical world. Spirit by its nature is more refined than the physical and can pass through physical barriers without making an impression; so a spirit need a physical cloak for it to live in the physical world.

At the death of the physical body, the spirit departs from it and continues its existence.

To futher understand why we(human spirits) left Paradise and incarnated on earth, please refer to what I wrote on this thread: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=463682.msg6321483#msg6321483

So the spirit is the real you. Your physical body is only a cloak that your spirit wears.

Spirit originating from a plane closer to the vicinity of God, stands a better chance at understanding the attributes of God or knowing of God. And besides, all that is spiritual(Both Primordial and Spiritual) carry the ability to recognise the will of God. This is one of the things that distinguishes the Spiritual from all other species in creation. Another unique thing about the Spiritual(Both Primordial and Spiritual) is that the spiritual has the gift of 'free will', other species in creation do not possess 'free will'. An animal on earth for example, does not have free will.

Thanks and remain blessed.

@thehomer
I finally read the link you gave. Everything in that wikipedia page is right and I fail to see how it helps your case.

This is from the wikipedia page you gave.

In thermodynamics, work performed by a system is the quantity of energy transferred by the system to another that is accounted for in a particular way; namely, by changes in the external generalized mechanical constraints on the system.
The external generalized mechanical constraints may be chemical[1], electromagnetic[1][2][3] (including radiative[4], as in laser power), gravitational[5], or pressure/volume or other simply mechanical constraints[6], including momental[4], as in radiative transfer. Thermodynamic work is defined to be measureable solely from knowledge of such external macroscopic constraint variables. These macroscopic variables always occur in conjugate pairs, for example pressure and volume[6], magnetic flux density and magnetization[2], mole fraction and chemical potential[1]. In the SI system of measurement, work is measured in joules (symbol: J). The rate at which work is performed is power.

Reread the above and tell me how it helps your case.

@Analissa

Very fair points. You are right if the 'work' used in your definition of energy is 'work' in layman's terms.  If that is the case then your definition of energy -- the ability to do work -- is right.

The rest of the things you said in your last post are also true, except your statement that "matter can be destroyed." I still mainten that matter cannot be destroyed; matter can only change phases but not destroyed. The conclusion drawn from those facts depends on the way you look at the facts.

@precap2
I'm afraid your views on scientific work is wrong. But I don't want go round and round on this issue; I have done a fair job defining what scientific work is. If you views fill your void, then stick to them.

@thehomer
I will deal with your post soon.

@thehomer
I will return and deal with your last post. Right now I am in a haste.

precap2:
This is where I have severe misunderstanding of your concept. Either you abandoned your concept here totally or you're not very descriptive. By "If I hold a very heavy stone for hours", do you mean holding it up or just holding it while it lay on the ground. If you mean while it lay on the ground, then there is neither force nor distance; but if you mean holding it up or off the ground, then there is both force and distance, therefore work has been done and energy dissipated.
Holla!

@precap2
Yes work is done while lifting the stone off the ground. This involves force and distance. I did not include lifting the stone off the ground in my earlier explanation. I simply stated 'holding the stone.' ie without moving the stone.

precap2:
However, the amount of energy required to whisk it off the ground is not equal to that required to keep it suspended, but while it's still suspended work is still going on until it is returned to a state of rest.

Here is where you err. No work is done when you are stationarily holding the stone(whitout moving the stone). Likewise a table does no work when a book is placed on it. While holding the stone you are applying force but since no distance has been made, no work is done.

Don't take my word for it. Take this issue to an authority.

Keep in mind that here we are talking strictly science and not the layman's definition of work.

Thanks a lot.

thehomer:
Actually, holding the stone for hours means you have done work just not mechanical work but you have expended chemical energy maintaining the stone at that height.

So in a sense, the layman is right.

Work has been done just not mechanical work.

Hope this helps.

Hi thehomer. I'm sorry but everything here is completely wrong scientifically speaking. Work cannot be done without distance. Not only that, the distance has to be in the direction of the force. If a force is applied to and object and the object does not move, no work has been done. This is elementry physics.

In physics mehcanical work is :

Work=FD

Work = force X distance.

The scientific definition of work is when your efforts to move the object actually do something and how much it moves versis how much effort you put in is how much work was done. So if you push on a brick wall and nothing happens, you may get tired but you havent done any work.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_scientific_definition_for_work

Work can be zero even when there is a force. The centripetal force in a uniform circular motion, for example, does zero work since the kinetic energy of the moving object doesn't change. This is because the force is always perpendicular to the motion of the object; only the component of a force parallel to the velocity vector of an object can do work on that object. Likewise when a book sits on a table, the table does no work on the book despite exerting a force equivalent to mg upwards, because no energy is transferred into or out of the book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_(physics)

Even in (work)thermodynamics, holding an object stationary does not constitute work. In thermodynamics work involves transfer of energy from one system to another and this transfer must cause change in the mechanical constituents of the system; where no change is observed, work is not done even if energy is transferred.

I wont wast time on this; we live in the age of information, just goggle what work means in science, or talk to science professors. There is a popular saying in physics classes in America and it goes like this: The statue of liberty has been holding a touch for centuries and not doing any work.