₦airaland Forum

@Deepsight

Thanks for your well thought-out reply; in some areas you are very logical, whilst in some areas you premises still do not add up. I will point them out to you as I go.  But not all that is logical is right. There are so many logical premises, but only one Truth. However the Truth cannot be wanting in logic either, only that sometimes in dealing with the Truth we encounter ideas that go beyond the realm of intellectual perception. The intellect has to separate things to survey them, while the spirit grasps things as whole.

When it comes to God and the Truth, one must go beyond his intellect. The individual must employ his spiritual perceptive ability, before he can grasp or know of God and His activities. The intellect stands silent before all that comes directly from God.

Love is a good example. You can never approach it, or comprehend it with the intellect. If you bring the Love of God into this equation, you will find the key to your puzzles.  But I will return to the issue of Love latter.

Let me exhaustively deal with the new issues that you raised.

Deep Sight:
Finally let me just say one more thing. You talked about the great love of God facilitating "extra help." Think about this carefully. Do you really believe this. What do we mean when we say that God is "Adamantine?"

It simply means that God cannot be bent. God cannot change. God remains uniform and steadfast in what IT is and IT is absolutely unwavering. This is simply and absolutely incompatible with the notion of interventionist missions based on love. God is strict LAW, and as such the strict law of God will take course in every scenario, without exception and deliver immaculate divine justice to every being and every creature in accordance with the adamantine LAW of God.

Interestingly, the Grail Message uses this word repeatedly in describing God and ITs laws.

Definition of ADAMANTINE

ad•a•man•tine
adj
\ˌa-də-ˈman-ˌtēn, -ˌtīn, -ˈman-tən\

1: made of or having the quality of adamant
2: rigidly firm : unyielding <adamantine discipline>

Synonyms: adamant, hard, immovable, implacable, inconvincible, inflexible, unbending, uncompromising, unrelenting, unyielding.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/adamantine

"Verily verily I say unto you: whatever a man soweth, the same shall he reap" - That is an adamantine LAW of God: and it bepeaks no special need for any 'help' beyond that.

Exactly! And even in the mission of Jesus, God and His Laws did not change. They remained adamant and unyielding. Keep in mind that Jesus did not annul any of the laws of God. Neither was Jesus a new law introduced in creation. The Laws that have existed in creation from time immemorial issued from God who is the living law Himself, and who Jesus was and remain a part of. Hence the laws issued from Jesus, and consequently, Jesus is the living law Himself. Hence the entrance of Jesus into creation is the entrance of the Living form of the Laws that already exist in creation.

You rightly believe that the laws of God in creation are able to deal with any situation. Without any outside help, hence the laws are perfect. Correct. Yet when these perfect laws take on a form and enter into creation you consider it an interference! Now you see where you are becoming illogical. The law is the law! Unyielding, unchangeable, and adamant. God is the Law Himself. His radiations give rise to creation and his radiations(the laws) which emanate from Him maintain creation. Either way you look at it these laws did not originate from within creation. It is in God Himself, and it effects or radiations enter creation continuously, maintaining it and keep order in it.

If you agree that the entrance or existence of God's laws, in creation is not an interference; creation depend on these laws to exist. And God continuously radiate it into creation. If you agree that the laws originate from God, and its effects is evidenced in creation; it enter creation. Then why do you consider it an interference the same law takes on form and enter creation.

Water is water whether it comes in the form of Solid(Ice), Liquid(Water), or gas(vapor). Sometimes due to some aliments, people are not able to chew solid form, and liquid food is giving to them. Is there any deviation in this? NO! Mankind prove lazy and incapable of absorbing or learning the Laws of God which operate in the mechanism of creation, out of love God sent them the same law in a living form.

It doesn’t matter what form of water with which you used to quench your thirst, whether ice, liquid water, or vapor. The fact remains that water quenched your thirst. By the same token, it doesn’t matter what form the laws of God took to rectify the situation. The fact remains that the laws of God rectified the situation. The situation was rectified completely within the laws of God.

This goes to prove that the laws are perfect; otherwise God wouldn’t have it as Jesus. If the laws are wanting, then it would have been changed or improved on. If in the mission of Jesus, the laws were changed, even in the slightest form then your premise would have made more sense. But the fact that God sent Jesus Who was the living law Himself is confirmation of the Truth that the laws are perfect.

The only imperfection is to be found in mankind and not in God who remained STEADFAST and ADAMANT. He didn’t even change His laws by a hairs breath.

I will summarize my premises here:

(1)You said: “. God is strict LAW, and as such the strict law of God will take course in every scenario” Very correct. I agree with you. From this we deduce that,
(2) This Law resides in God who is the Living law Himself. What manifests in creation as laws are due to the pressure created by the Power of the Law which resides within God. In other words all the laws of creation originated from God, from outside creation; yet they enter creation through the radiation of God.
(2) Jesus is the same law in a human form.

Conclusion: Hence, the entrance of Jesus into creation did not upset, or annul the existing order or law. It is the same laws that already operate in creation, that took on form as Jesus.

Perhaps an analogy may help.
I set up a household and promised to give my kids water every day. Every day I give my kids cold water, as much as they want. Let’s assume that my some develop tooth decay one day and hence could drink cold water any. Out of my love I started giving him warm water.

Have changed in any way? NO! I remained adamant in my promise of giving my family water. If I have given him wine instead of water then I could be accused of having changed. But as long I provide that which I promised, water, I have kept my promise. The fact that I gave him water of a different form only shows that I love him so much than that I will do whatever is allowed within pre-set rules to provide for him.

Deep Sight:
Justcool just think about the unimaginable number of realms and spheres of existence that must exist. What you are suggesting would mean that the transcendental God would keep descending into creation to rectify this or that condition of this or that set of sentient beings. To render help here, there and yonder. There is nothing transcendental about such a God. Such a God has descended into creation and that alone in terms of strict logic destroys his very transcendence.

Here you are making two mistakes (1) You assume that God visits creation. This is wrong. I have told you time without number that creation cannot carry God. Nothing could be more impossible! However God’ Holy Will(Imanuel) and Love(Jesus) work continuously in creation. Rendering help where ever help is needed, restoring order, and delivering justice where ever it’s needed.
(2) You are using “transcendence” where it doesn’t belong. The fact that God is transcendent does not help you case. Transcendence means that which can transcend(go above the ordinary). The fact that the Love and Justice(Holly Will of God) can take on form and work within creation does not go against transcendence. Actually it goes to show that God is transcendent.

Deep Sight:
I also repeat that a truly perfect creation will not require its maker to descend into it to give any help.

Nobody ever said that subsequent creation is perfect and self-sustaining. Subsequent creation is not even a direct work of God. However the laws that operate in all parts of creation, including subsequent creation, are perfect. The direct work of God is Primordial creation; there is nothing wanting there, no imperfection. However, even this Primordial creation is not self-sustaining. A piece of work does not have to self-sustaining to be a perfect piece of work. Only God is self-sustaining.

Humans in subsequent creation, also, is not a direct work of God; hence man in subsequent creation is imperfect.

Deep Sight:
I note all your examples concerning help, but i simply feel that they are not apt as in this case we are discussing an omniscient and pre-scient being. That makes all the difference in the world. Your father came to your school to give you addittional money because he was not omniscient or pre-scient. Such limitations of knowledge and circumstance cannot possibly affect an omniscient and pre-scient being.

God is omniscient. But mankind, owing to the spiritual nature, poses free-will. Free-will implies that they make their decision. God knows all, but God does know a decision that has not been made. God does not know what mankind will decide on, He knows their inclinations’, but the decision remains solely mankind’s. Yet whatever decision man takes, will take its course within the laws of creation. Hence God know where every road leads; but it’s up to the creature to decide on what road to take.

At the time the spirit germs where descending into creation, God did not know that mankind would drive subsequent creation to a premature dissolution. Just as my father did not know that I will exhaust my money at the middle of the semester. However God knows, from the very beginning, every possible mistake that mankind can make; and hence his laws are good enough to deal with any situation that may arise.

Omniscience of God lies in His laws, in His ability to know the outcome of every decision, and His ability to rectify any disturbance or disharmony that may ever arise.

You don’t believe in a personal God, yet when it comes to omniscience you expect God to be personal. You expect Him to know beforehand the decision that every creature would make, even though you ascribe free-will to these creatures. Do you see how inconsistent you are here? Apart from the fact that this is inconsistent with “free-will,” it is also expecting or asking God to be personal.

Deep Sight:
I leave you with this poser -

1. Is God Transcendent?

Yes.

Deep Sight:
2. Is it logically posiible to remain transcendent whilst descending into creation to participate therein?

God does not descend into creation.


Thanks and remain blessed.

bladeliger:
hi just cool

i am going through internal things at the mo and my question is

is our only reason we are here now to put right the wrongs and if so whats the point of life on earth now - should we enjoy life as it is or just concentrate on fixing the past - i understand alot but it seems like we are on our way to destruction of salvation so whats the point of earth life today besides the above

bladeliger:
to elaborate more

its like i feel that everything is almost pointless - your either gonna make it or not. heaven

when it comes to life itself i set off and try to become good at things but what is the point - money - attention all these thing do is weight you down any way so its like maybe just do nothing - that dont work either the brain will soon see to that - and then theirs the save the world buzz that many identify with just to keep busy. theres seems to be 1 way only and i can see it but life just kicks u in the guts one way or another

sound nutty ? thats my life lol

@bladeliger

Thanks for your questions.
Here is what I wrote in an earlier thread; in it you will see the answers to some of your questions.

All Life started with God who is life Himself; only God can create life. We humans spirits were created as spirit germs in Paradise which is in the vicinity of God. As spirit germs we could not become conscious in Paradise due to the immense radiation of the Light of God there. But the desire to become conscious(know good from evil in biblical terms) filled these spirit germs; and the only way for the spirit germs to become conscious is by moving further away from the light, in the planes of matter which lie further way from the light than Paradise. Out of love, God allowed His servants to develop or form the world of matter in which the physical world belongs. The earth also belong to the physical world. At a certain stage in the development of the earth, God allowed some of the spirit germs from paradise to incarnate on earth. Before they incarnated on earth, they had already journey down from paradise to the ethereal ream; and when the earth was ready, they incarnated on earth. This is how man on earth was made, and this is how the human spirit was driven out of Paradise. All the spirit germs in Paradise could not incarnate on earth at once; so they incarnated over a long period of time until the earth passed the stage in its development where no new spirit germs from paradise can incarnate. There are so many spirit germs; so it was not only one man and one woman. After each earth life the spirit continues its existence in the beyond (ethereal realm) which is still part of the material world. After living on earth the spirit is trapped in the part of the ethereal realm which corresponds to its weight; thus thieves will find themself in the same plane, killers will find themselves in the same plane, while noble ones will find themselves in a noble plane. The plane corresponds to the nature of the spirit; thus a plane where a killer finds himself will be a bad and ugly plane, a plane of suffering. A plane where a good person finds himself after physical death will be a good and beautiful plane. The spirit stays there until its time for it to incarnate on earth again. It is also possible that a spirit (soul) makes progress in the ethereal world, i.e. - a killer in the ethereal plane of killer changes and stops being a killer. This change will also change its ethereal environment; it will find itself in better ethereal plane, a plane that corresponds to its new state. But all these ethereal planes still belong to the world of matter.  A spirit that lives according to the laws of God (the true teachings of Christ) will achieve enough maturity and purity that will allow it to be lifted beyond the worlds of matter. Such a spirit enters paradise as a mature and pure human spirit who will not have to descend into matter again or incarnate on earth again. Therefore reincarnation is not meant to repeat forever.

The reason why we are in the world of matter is to mature and return back to Paradise which is our real home. This world (the worlds of matter, both here and the ethereal) is not our home, rather it is a place lent to us for us to live in and mature. The worlds of matter can be divided into two -(1) Coarse, or gross matter, and (2) ethereal matter. Each of these two still has many divisions and many planes. I.e. the physical world belongs to the lowest part of the worlds of coarse matter.

There are always more spirits in the ethereal world than on earth. Everything that is matter passes through the four stages of birth, blossoming, ripeness, and decay (death). Our physical bodies go through this process, so does the earth and the whole material universe. Now that the whole world of matter entering the stage where destruction(decay) sets in, many human spirits who are in the beyond are rushing to incarnate on earth and pay their debts(purify themselves) and be lifted out of matter to paradise before the destruction of matter takes place. This is part of the reason why the earth is overpopulated today.

There comes a time when the worlds of matter enters the stage of decay, it decays; only to be reborn and the process continues. But a spirit that cannot free itself from matter will remain in matter while matter decays. Being drawn into the process of decomposition of matter will make the spirit lose consciousness, the spirit returns to being a spirit germ; and returns to paradise as a spirit germ. This is tantamount to the death of the spirit or more precisely the death of the acquired ago, or personality.


The law of reciprocal action demands that a spirit must redeem its guilt in the same plane where he committed the crime. IE a killer on earth must return back to the earth to pay for the crimes he/she committed on earth. Thus such a spirit must reincarnate to pay its debts. That's why we see people born blind and people born with terminal illnesses and we wonder why God is so unjust to them. It is not injustice; it is the Karma that they incurred in their past lives on earth, which they must redeem on earth. This could also be why some kids die at birth. But if one repents and does only good, a way will be shown to him/her through which he/she can pay for his/her karma without suffering. IE a Killer who repents might in his next earth life decide to be a doctor; by saving people’s lives as a doctor, he has paid for his karma. Therefore when a man truly repents, all sins will be forgiven him.

People don’t usually remember who they were in their past lives. This is also a manifestation of the love of God. This makes the individual feel like he/she has been given a fresh start; the memory of the past would not deter it. I.e.- if one learns that he was Nero in his past live, this may make him lose all hope of salvation. But in not remembering his past, he is given an opportunity to carry on do good deeds.

I cannot tell you when each spirit will return to earth, the laws of God guide and direct all these things. It depends on the spirits development, and it’s Karma. Some of the times, it is karma that forces the spirit to reincarnate on earth.

I will give an example: If you harm somebody on earth and the person refuses to forgive you. You are tied to this person with an invisible cord. As long as the un-forgiveness remains, this cord remains, and you cannot enter paradise when you are tied to somebody like that.  This tie may force you to reincarnate on earth when that person reincarnates. You may reincarnate as his relative and in this incarnation you are given the opportunity to earn his forgiveness. I.e. a man who harms a girl might be forced to reincarnate as the girls son in his next life. By being a good son, he earns the girls love and forgiveness without actually knowing it; he is freed from this tie.

The same is applicable to the person who refuses to forgive. If you refuse to forgive, you are tied to the person you refused to forgive, and you can never enter paradise until you have severed this tie by genuinely forgiving the person that offended. Even if the person is in hell and you are on earth, distances don’t matter. This tie may force you to incarnate on earth in the vicinity of your offender. This is why forgiveness is very important.

There is a law that everything must return back to its origin. Thus our physical bodies which came from the earth (the physical world) it must at the end return or remain in the physical world. No physical body (flesh and blood) can enter the ethereal realm, and likewise, no ethereal body can enter the spiritual realm. The physical body must be left in the physical world, and the ethereal body must left in the ethereal realm before the spirit can enter the spiritual world (Paradise) with its spiritual body. Therefore the physical body which is corruptible can never enter the spiritual world which is incorruptible. It lacks the lightness and consistency of the spiritual. It is the spiritual world that is the kingdom of God.

Paul hinted this when he said:

"I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable" (Hebrews 6:18)

What I wrote is a summary of a great and an immense process. I can go deeper into it. Let me know the areas that are confusing and I will elaborate.

So deducing from the above, we are not here just to put right our wrongs. The human spirit germ descended into the worlds of matter in its quest for consciousness(maturity). The goal is to return back to Paradise as a conscious or matured human spirit with a personality and a name. Human spirits make mistakes in the worlds of matter, just as students make mistakes in school. Through reincarnation and through the law of reciprocal action, opportunities are given to the spirits to learn from their mistakes and redeem their guilt. The purpose of reincarnation is not just for redeeming karma, it also allows the human spirit the opportunity to have enough experience of the earth; because one earth life is not enough for the spirit to learn all that it needs to learn from the earth.

Life on earth is not pointless; the decision to make his/her life on earth worthwhile or pointless lies with each spirit. The key to making your life worthwhile is living it in accord with the will of God, living in accord with the Truth or the true teaching of Jesus. You don’t need to join the any church or movement for this purpose; you can start by listening to your intuition or your conscience. As the spirit spark in you descended from the kingdom of God, the same spirit spark in you can lead you back to the kingdom of God if only you pay attention to it; it speaks to you through your conscience.

Love is the key that unlocks all mysteries of life. Jesus already made it clear to us when He said, “'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.”

You can enjoy all the good things that come with life on earth, money, cars, and etc. All these things are not inherently evil; it all depends on how you use them, you can even use them for good. You must not love them more than your God, and you must not use them to harm others.

You can enjoy life on earth; but you must harm no one in so doing.

I hope this answers your questions. Feel free to raise any more questions that you might have.

Thanks and remain blessed.

coldwater:
@ Ephisi, I guess you live in Lagos. Where can I get to buy vol 2 and 3 of the Grail Message?. I bought Vol 1 recently at Palms Shopping Mall, only vol 1 was displayed.

@ M_Nwakwo, You and Justcool's deep analysis of spiritual things, prompted me to buy the Grail Message Vol 1. So far, I have learnt a lot from the book. Especially, about keeping one's thought pure all the time. Something is yet unclear to me which I will like you to butress. The book says every sin/evil thoughts will be paid for herein or hereafter. If so, what is the essence of repentance and forgiveness of sin?. I think once we have asked God to forgive us our sins, they(the sins) will be deleted and there will be no need for atoning again? Thanks

@coldwater

Thanks for your questions.

God does forgive all sins through the mechanism of His laws, the Laws of creation. There is a law in creation that every action, word, or thought that an individual produces must in the end be returned to the individual. This is the law of reciprocal action; we see this law expressed in other words like, “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.”

The words, thoughts, and actions that we produce are like the seeds which we sow, and which after ripening is returned to us; we test it whether sweet or bitter depending on the nature of that which we produced. Hence, it is not only limited to bad actions, bad words, or bad thought; even our good actions, words and thoughts are returned to us through the mechanism of the laws of creation. Just like a farmer who planted corn during the planting season must reap corn during the season of harvest; you cannot plant corn and reap rice.

Our actions, words, and thoughts, take on tangible forms in the beyond. Like magnets, based on the law of attraction of homogeneous species, they attract each other based on their nature, and accumulate on a plane corresponding to their weight; despite this, they remain attached to us, their producer. Hence in the beyond, planes result where all evil deeds are accumulated, and this plane is what people call hell. An individual who practices evil either through words, thoughts, or deed are attached to their forms, and since these forms are accumulated in hell, the individual will be drawn to hell when he passes over(when drops his physical body as in death); and there(in hell) the individual must reap what he had sown. Only when the individual have lived through these forms, either here or in the beyond, is he free from that particular form.

But as soon as an individual genuinely repents and asks for forgiveness; as an answer to this prayer, or the reciprocal effect of the prayer will link his spirit to a ray of light through which the strength to do good will be given to him. In other words, the purity of his repentance, based on the law of attraction of homogenous species, will attract purity which will surround the individual. Such individual surrounded by purity, or whose aura is so radiant, the purity of his aura will afford him a protective layer. Just like the atmosphere protects the earth, the same way, the purity that radiates from his spirit, will protect him from the returning forms of evil which he created in the past. Just like a meteorite heading to the earth is broken to pieces by the earth’s atmosphere, reducing or completely annulling any devastating impact; the aura (environment) of such an individual will greatly mitigate or completely annul the effects of the bad karma returning to the individual. Hence the individual is severed from a tie without suffering, a tie that would have led him to hell. As long as he holds, steadfastly, on to his genuine repentance, gradually and one after the other, the cords that tie him to the evil forms of his past action will be broken until one day he becomes completely free of any tie to hell or evil. He has paid all his karma without much suffering due to his genuine repentance.

So the laws of reciprocal action cannot be annulled, none of the laws of creation can be annulled because behind them stands the Will and pressure from the Power of God. But good is stronger than evil, so the power of genuine repentance in man is strong enough to mitigate or reduce the harshness of the retuning reciprocal action. In some cases, depending on how deep the repentance is, an opportunity to pay for the karma by performing a good action is given to the individual; the individual pays for his karma through symbolic redemption. I will give an example: A killer who has repented may be given an opportunity to save a life, and by saving a life, he will be freed from his karma. On his way to school, he may meet a person drowning in a river; by jumping in and saving the life of the person, he has paid for the life he once took. In other words, out of the love of God, an opportunity is given to him to return what he once stole and hence balance the equation. The equation is balanced and the man goes free, freed from a karma that would have necessitated his death; yet the law of reciprocal action was not annulled or compromised.

Freed from such guilt, such a person on passing on(as in physical death), will not be drawn to hell. By practicing his good volition or by living according to the laws of God, he would have attained purity that would attract him to the luminous planes of purity; and he would have attained enough lightness that would allow him to float upwards to the luminous planes.

Hence repentance is very important, genuine repentance is the desire to live in the will of God and consequently achieve purity. It must come from the innermost being; it must be a volition of the spirit and not just an intellectual scheme to avoid suffering. Purity is very important, the purity of words, actions and thoughts. Only the purity from the radiation of the volition of the spirit can greatly mitigate the harmful effects of all material forms, including the forms of bad action, words, and thoughts. Forms resulting from the intellect, intellectual schemes are futile when it comes to mitigating the effects of a returning reciprocal action or obtaining forgiveness. Hence repentance has to come from within, not just from the brain.

One (a repented person) should never be afraid of what karma may return to him from his past action; as long as his repentance is genuine, from his spirit, he will be given a way to pay his karma without much suffering. But the law of reciprocal action will never be overthrown or annulled.

Here you see the necessity of repentance. An un-repented person is tied to many evil forms, and such a person cannot be lifted out of the worlds matter into Paradise. He has to sever or live through all the forms that he is tied to first. And as long as he is unrepentant, he is perpetually tied to matter and will not be able to leave the worlds of matter before the dissolution of the material worlds. For all material forms, including the earth, are transient; all material forms pass through the funnel of dissolution to be reborn again, the eternal cycle of birth, and death.  Hence the unrepentant is trapped in the worlds of matter, and along with the rest of matter, will pass through the mills of dissolution, this will cause him pains of such magnitude that he will lose his consciousness and the personality he had developed so far. He will be crumbled to dust, back to an unconscious spirit germ; this is tantamount his name being erased from the book of life. All that was invested in him, and all that he has experienced so far, would be in vain, for his personality will be lost, and the spirit germ will return back to Paradise as an unconscious spark, exactly as it once left. This is the worst fate that can befall any spirit, spiritual death!

Hence man must exert all his strength to sever all ties to any material forms. Only through genuine repentance, which entails living in accord with the will of God can the individual achieve an everlasting personality, sever all unworthy ties to matter, and return back to Paradise as conscious spirit with a human form and a name.

I hope this helps; feel free to raise any issues you might have.

Thanks and remain blessed.

Deep Sight:
This was a truly rewarding and enriching thread , although the question still remains: is the idea of intervention compatible with the idea of a perfect system? I still think not.

When i consider all the worlds that must exist, it beats me to imagine God severing parts of itself to proceed into a material world to personally render assistance within such a material world. It just doesn't sound right in terms of the conception of a transcendental God.

@Deepsight
Your premises do not add-up; you neglect one very important fact. And that is the fact that humans in subsequent creation are not perfect. Therein lies the solution to the puzzle.

These laws reverberate in all parts of creation; being perfect or harbingers of perfection, where ever imperfection of disharmony seeks to arise, these laws will eliminate it. In other words everything that is not in accord with the Will of God is fated to annihilation.

God is perfect so are His laws. The human spirits in subsequent creation are not perfect, and hence their imperfection (misuse of their freewill) gave rise to the situation that occurred.

The Laws of God in creation, and even subsequent creation, are enough to deal with the situation; everything that is not in accord with the will of God, including majority of mankind, was headed to destruction. Left alone the laws of God are sufficient to deal with this dissolution of all that is wrong.

The duration of the forms in subsequent creation depends on its distance from the light, or how much it is permeated by the light. At a certain distance, the forms, including the planets and etc., will swing sluggishly and begin to disintegrate. For, as you already know, all material forms are transient.

Due to the misuse of their freewill, mankind cut the material worlds off from the stream of light. The material worlds became heavier and based on the law of gravity, it sank further away from the light. The consequence is destruction of all material forms. In this destruction, all spirit germs will still return back to Paradise, but as unconscious spirit germs. Since almost all mankind, even the good ones were not yet matured enough to exist consciously in Paradise.

This will be tantamount to closing a school due to the bad behavior of some bad students who had set the school on fire, at the detriment of the good ones who were not yet ready to graduate. Even this will not make the school or the laws that operate on it imperfect. Consider another example: An apple tree that is cut off from its source of water. The tree is bound to die and disintegrate; all the fruits on it will have to fall, both the good and bad ones. And if all the fruits on the tree are still in the process of formation, they are all bound to destruction because they are not matured enough to survive, to germinate on the soil they will fall into. Now back to the school analogy, consider a school where the bad students, out fear of failing, set the school on fire. The consequence is that the school will be closed and every student, including the good ones will be sent home. But not sent home as graduates, -- Engineers, lawyers and etc., -- on the contrary they will be sent home without their degrees because they did not graduate. These are just analogies though.

Is there any imperfection in the case of the laws that caused the apple tree to die? No! The trees life depends on water; this is the law and this law is perfect. It is simply the nature of the tree and all living things to need water. Is there injustice in this? No! The imperfection and injustice is found on the person who cuts the tree off its supply of water.
In the case of the school. Is there any imperfection to the laws that where there is oxygen, fuel, and ignition, fire will result? No! The imperfection is to be found in the bad students who ignited the school (fuel) and burned it down. Should we blame nature or the school authority for allowing air (oxygen) to exist in the school? No! Can we blame the school authority for sending the students home, even though they had not graduated? No! We can only blame the students, who out of lack of consideration for their fellow students, set the school on fire.

What I'm trying to say is that even if Jesus hadn’t come, (1) the laws of God would have in the end rectified the situation justly by separating all spirits from matter and allowing all the worlds of matter to pass through the funnel of disintegration, in-order to be born new; thus recreate or reform anew. (2)Only that the consequence would be that the entire mankind may be lost, because they are not yet ready to graduate; thus, like the students retuning home without their degrees, spirit germs will return to Paradise without the conscious personality that they went into matter to achieve. (3) Still this process would not be called injustice. It is actually justice; justice for the worlds of matter and all other non-human beings in it who have suffered due to the failure of mankind. Just like you wouldn’t blame the school authority for sending the students home, without graduating, in-order to put out the fire; nobody would blame the laws of God for allowing matter to pass through the funnel of disintegration, without any human spirit graduating. This disintegration is actually a necessity for the existence of matter; all that is material passes through the four stages of birth, blossoming, ripeness, and decay. The blame solely lies with the bad students or the human spirits who misused their free-will. The destruction of all the personalities (even those that still had the possibility of succeeding, the good ones) achieved till then, also, would not be injustice, because the human spirits failed to maintain the order in their school, they failed to be good students and they set the school on fire.

But the love of God went further than just allowing things to take their course. The perfection of God will not allow anything that is pure to be destroyed; the Love of God would not allow anybody who still had the possibility of success to be destroyed. The system created by God proved to be more perfect than the school mentioned above; for God would not send any spirit who can still make it, back without giving it all the time that it needed to develop. Neither would the love of God turn a deaf ear to their prayers for salvation. Intuitively, they sensed that their school was heading to a premature closure, due to the bad behavior of many students, and they prayed to God for help. So for the sake of those who still possessed the possibility of success, and in answer to their prayer God forcibly intervened by sending His Divine light into subsequent creation.

The fact that the laws of God in creation allow such a visit or mission of redemption show that the whole system is perfect, since the laws are part of the system.

Rather than seeing it as imperfection, you should see it as a testament that God’s perfection is beyond and more perfect than our highest conception of perfection.

A parent who sends an extra professor to his child at school. This does not mean that the school is insufficient to teach the child, it does not mean that the school system is not good. It only means that the love of the parents is so much that despite sending the child to the best school, this parents still sends extra help for the child when the child is about to fail.

When I was in high school, after sending me to school with sufficient money, my father shows up sometimes to give me more money. Does this mean that he didn’t give me enough at first? No! It is only a testament of his love; for it would not be injustice if doesn’t show up from time to time to give me extra money.

An extra help does not mean that the system is imperfect. The word extra already implies “more than sufficient, more than needed.” The love of God has no limit, it never sleeps, its eternally watchful, never thinks of itself but always ready to help wherever possible. The love of God is ready to wait hand and foot even for one person who still possessed the possibility of salvation, this is something that even a Divine being, Lucifer found it hard to comply to.

The mission of Jesus was an extra help given to mankind. It was a work of love, a love of such magnitude that no human being can fully comprehend it. For GOD IS LOVE.

Even if this extra help wasn’t given, the laws of God in creation would have gradually and in the end eliminate all that is evil, only that due to the weakness of mankind, in time even those humans who were still good would lose hope and fall along with the fallen ones. Almost all mankind would have been lost in the process, out of their own guilt and not out of the imperfection of the Laws of God or creation.

The coming of the light(Jesus and Imanuel) into subsequent creation only speeded up the process and caused a gulf between evil and good. Those un-detachably tied to darkness gets pushed further into the realms of darkness, into prediction, while those who still had good in them received enough strength from the light to carry on with their volition for what is good.

It is this separation of light from darkness that was pictorially described by Paul in the bible; it was misunderstood by many and hence the concept of rapture developed among many. Rapture is nothing but the speedy separation of light from darkness, this is happening on earth today.

I will end by repeating: The mission of Jesus was an extra help given to mankind. It was a work of love, a love of such magnitude that no human being can fully comprehend it. For GOD IS LOVE.


Thanks and remain blessed.

Idehn:
Hi, Justcool.

Yes they are all physical objects. Emotions and intuitions are physical processes that occur in the brain, which at the very least, can be measured/observed by an organism actions. With sufficient technology and study one day, we may even be able to quantify how sad someone is(like to the point of suicide)  just by observing brain patterns. Physical objects are known through observation and measure. How, can you know what you have never experienced/observed/measured in any way?

The "concepts" of Time/Space, which is what we are talking about here, exist within our brains and are born from observations change in other physical objects/events. That is not to say they are objects/events themselves.

Hi Idehn

Thanks for your reply but there is still a problem with your premise. I have a problem with word “OBJECT” attributed to these phenomena. Not all physical phenomena are objects. Please can you define what an object is?

Behavior is not an object; behavior can be defined as a characteristic of an object, the behavior itself is not the object. Feeling which arise due to some neurological reactions in the brain are not objects. The feeling can be regarded as a consequence of the state of the brain, and not and object.

By studying brain patterns, what you observe is the objects that cause the behavior (feeling), but the behavior itself is not an object.

Intuition which is not an object either. The back brain is called the intuitive brain because science has correctly linked intuition to the back brain; but the back brain is not the source of the intuition. This will lead us away from the topic so let me just stop here. But even if the back brain is the source of the intuition; this still doesn’t make intuition an object, a physical object.

Things like motion could be described as behaviors; but motion itself is not an object. In science, time is a dimension of motion. The two (time and motion) are inseparably one, in science. Like motion, Time is not an object.

I’m strictly talking science in this post.

Thanks.

@Deepsight,
We've already agreed that time in science is different from the lay man's conception of time or the "real time."

What's the point quarreling with science over their conception? You made a good point that perhaps science should invent another word for their phenomenon and leave the word "Time" alone. Why still quarrel? What you perceive as time is not what science refers to when they talk about time; it's not what thehomer talks about when he refers to time.

I repeat: Real Time, the lay man's conception of time, is non-physical, it has no beginning, neither does it have an end; it existed before the entire creation came into being. Science at the moment is confined to the physical, which is a very small part of the entire creation. Science cannot rise above the physical, and hence cannot rise above the entire creation. Hence science can never grasp Real Time. Only in man’s intuition can he perceive, although to a limited extent, what time is.

You cannot force science to perceive something that is beyond its scope; neither can you re-define scientific concepts for science; science has already defined its concepts.

In science time is physical.

Deep Sight:
Phenomenon? Is time observed to "happen?"

I think not. Time does not "happen" in the sense that phenomena are observed to.

I used phenomenon in a philosophical sense. Not all phenomena are observed in the sense that you mean. Phenomena can be experienced too. It can also be used in place of “concept.”

Deep Sight:
2. The term 'physical quantity" really refers to measurement standards by which physcal elements/ phenomena can be measured. So to the extent that people can measure velocity against time, then that will make time a quantity. But this by no means renders time itself physical.

Yes it a quantity; but a physical quantity. Scientific time is a measurement of duration of physical events in the physical realm. This measurement is or duration is different in all parts of creation. Thus one can say spiritual Time(The speed of events in the Spiritual realm) or one can say physical time(The duration of events in the physical realm) Actually all these are perceptions of Time, or measurements of durations of events, not the real Time.

Real Time cannot be measured, it stands still. It is the consequence of God. Actually only God knows exactly what Time is.

@Iden,

Idehn:
My definition, a physical object would be simply defined by something that can be observed/experienced in some way and can be defined by said observation/experience. That is not to say that a-physical objects do not exist(if they exist). They would simply be unobservable/undefined, and any statements about them beyond these are meaningless.

I beg to differ. I think your definition is not very scientific. Certain things like emotions, feeling, and even intuition can be observed and experienced. Does this make these things physical? This is just my humble opinion. I don’t claim to be an authority in science, so pardon me for questioning your definition

Deep Sight:
Thank you. You say that Time is physical. Surely you are aware of the properties of matter: namely matter -

1 - Has weight

2 - Occupies Space

@Deepsight
You are slightly off with your first premise (Has weight). Replace it with “has mass”. Physical objects can be weightless; weight actually has more to do with the environment of the object than the object itself. I.e. an object on earth weighs differently than it would on the moon; yet the mass of the object remains the same.

And weight and mass are two different things, although they are related.
But I get your argument.

@Deepsight and thehomer.

Both of you are slightly off on the issue of whether time is a physical object or not.

Time (scientific time) can be regarded as physical, not necessarily a physical object but it is a behavior of physical objects, a behavior of the physical world. Strictly speaking in scientific terms, Time is a dimension of motion. Scientific time is related to motion, motion of the physical universe; hence scientific time is a physical quantity, [/b]same is applicable to Temperature, Current, resistance, capacitance, and etc.

[b]Scientific time is a physical phenomenon; it is a physical quantity.

Thank you all.

ephisi:
Indeed the grail message is the greatest message ever sent down to man and i am an adherent. But on the contrary I have dissociated myself from the grail movement due to my recent experiences. Theres a certain level of secrecy even within the ranks of crossbearer/grail movement members. Most of the grail cross bearers are genuine and desire to live in puirity but are unaware of many things that are purposely kept away from them. Especially from the younger crossbeares. I only started discovering new things when I became a member. The grail movement is towing the same line as the christian religion which they cannot tolerate or stand. I was recently embarassesed by a crossbearer leader in one of their reading centers in lagos. I had just relocated from another city to lagos. I went there to findout how I could start worshiping with them in lagos.It was only there i discovered that there are 2 factions of the grailmovement . I was being harrased and embarassed because i didnt belong to their faction. I thanked God for my experiences that day cause the truth began to dawn on me. How many crossbearers know that there is a 1931 original edition of the grail message. How many of them know what led to the 3volume grail message everyone is reading now. only a few stakeholders and they keep the knowledge from others for whatever reason. I no fit shout. The truth can never be buried

I have been strugling with myself deciding on how to reconcile my conflict of my desire to associate and worship with my fellow crossbeares but yet dissociate myself from the movemnt. I still use the grail message eventhough its not easy because I have not been in contact with other crossbearers to encourage me. But i thank God for everything. Anyone who feels he can quash my allegations is free to comment here. thanks

@ephisi

Thanks immensely for your contribution; your allegations are not false. What is happening now among crossbearers is a consequence of the laws of reciprocal action. Indeed if you examine the situation you will be convinced of the Truthfulness of the Grail Message. It all shows that the message is definitely from above! Through the events that happen now, the Almighty speak clearly about the Truthfulness of the Grail Message.

The Message stands on its own; [/b]it is pure, and whoever tries to soil it or use it to set up a religion is automatically spiritually separated from the light; once sapereated from the light, the individual is lost in a world of confusion.  All the religions that people try to tie to the Grail Message will fall into confusion and dissention; through these events people with pure volition will then see that these religions, movements, etc. and the Grail message are two different things!

[b]The Grail Message stands on its own; it is given to mankind irrespective of his religion, race, nationality and etc. Whoever(any movements and cults) that tries to tie a religion to it receives a blow of fate. such movements or cults are fated to dessention and desolution, in the end they will leave the Message alone. For there will be no repeatation of what happened to the Message of the son of God Jesus.

The Grail Message and the several movements associated to it are two different things!
I am aware of the 1931 editions; I have examined it and at the moment I am still examining it. I have my reservations about which is the right edition, but these are very personal reservations that I dare not share here. But one thing is for sure: Whoever is honestly yearning for the Truth, and makes the necessarily efforts towards the Truth will be lead to the Truth. Such a person will not be trapped forever in any religion, cults, or movements that are not in accord with the Will of God.

So I am not worried about which edition is correct(Although I have come to a personal recognition of it); I will not make too much noise about it, because I know that anybody whose longing is True will, in the end, be lead to right edition.

Some people start their spiritual quest by reading so many different religious books, some go from religion to religion; some also seek the truth in occult books. I see all these people and I don’t reproach them or attack them because I know that if their longing is genuine, they will definitely end up with the Truth someday. It doesn’t matter how many intermediary by-passes that they had to go through to arrive at the goal. As long as they are moving in the right direction, they will one day arrive at the Truth. I, too went from church to church, from various occult books till I was lead to the Grail Message, which, by the way, is not an occult book.

The same is applicable with the various editions of the Grail Message. One who is a genuine seeker will not be trapped forever in anything that does not completely correspond to the Truth or anything that has been falsified in anywaher. If your volition is firm and true, pray for guidance, and rest assuered that if the eddition you have is not the right one,  the love of God will lead you to the right one when you are ready for it.

My advice to you is to continue with a firm volition for what is good. Be the best crossbearer that you can be, forget the movements if they harass you. With a firm volition and an honestly heartfelt prayer, you will be guided to the goal.

Never let what any movement do or what any person does change your attitude towards the Grail Message. Remain free and unaffected; but read the Grail Message with an alert intuition. Never accept any explanation that doesn’t harmonize with your intuition, even if such explanations came from an esteemed crossbearer. I have heard some esteemed crossbearers give explanations that I don’t accept; the Grail Message, or the Abd-ru-shin, remains the final authority.

The following words of Jesus never fail: “Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need.”

Everything that you need will be given to you, including the knowledge of which edition of the Grail Message is the correct form of the Truth.

I’m a cross bearer but I do not belong to any of the various movements.

Thanks, and remain blessed.

DGreatMan:
@justcool thanks for your response. It's really going to help me. I really appreciate. I'll find my way back to Him and I believe He will accept me back.

Thank you too and remain blessed.

m_nwankwo:
God is love. One can also say that God is the source of love. All creatures of God irrespective of race, religion, sex, nationality etc can absorb of this love of God and dispense it accordingly. In the case of human beings, what absorbs this love from God is the human spirit. This love will permeate the spirit, its clocks including the outermost shell, the physical body. Thus he who absorbs the rays of love will manifest love including love for all creations of God. Now, the recognition of this love as coming from God depends on the various radiation connection between the spirit and the various shells surrounding the spirit, the last shell being the physical body and its coordinating center, the human brain. In many of us, this radiation connections are not straight, thus the shells enveloping the spirit are not conscious of the impressions that vibrates in the spirit. Thus a man may believe himself to be an atheist because that is what his brain tells him and yet his spirit is in the recognition of God. Irrespective of his brain telling him that God does not exist, the emanations of the spirit including love still permeates his mind and body resulting in expressions of genuine love. Thus although from a human standpoint, such a man is considered by himself and others to be atheist, spiritually the man is a theist.


In a similar vein the brain and the mind may be trained or indoctrinated or programmed to believe in God but their spirit has no recognition of God. In this case, this believer is actually an atheist even though he believes himself to be a theist. However because he, that is, the spirit has no connection with God, he cannot absorb the rays of love and manifest it. Thus, in spite of his intellectual believe in God, he still manifests the works of the flesh including hatred, anger, lust, gossip, avarice, fear, etc. The species of a seed determines the fruits that it will bear. Thus all genuine love and human beings who indulge in it believe in God even when they are unconscious of it while on earth.

Thus, all human beings who indulge in genuine love are of God and all those who indulge in hatred are not of God. By there works or fruits, you shall know those who stand in the will of God and those that oppose it or do not recognize it. This is an infallible yardstick to know who belongs to God and those who are not.

Therefore the love of God manifests in the love of all creations of God. On earth, it is possible for an atheist to love God without being spiritually conscious of it. However if such atheist continues in the manifestation of the love of God, either later in this earthly life or in the beyond on in another earthly life the emanations of the love of God that vibrates in his spirit will also permeate his earthly brain such that he also becomes conscious of the existence of God while in the physical body. What counts is how our spirit is close or far away from the will of God. Religion, nationality, sex, class and similar things that we think are very important while on earth are worthless once we drop this physical body.

In my view, there is no difference between the pope, the Christian, the mystic or an atheists when it concerns the will of God. Murder is murder whether perpetrated by a pope, a theist or an atheist. Genuine love is genuine love whether it came from an atheist, a pastor or an agnostic. Sometimes we think too much and thus think nothing. If we look around even on earth, we should find that the natural laws which are the manifestation of the will of God in nature does not give a hoot about all these artificial constructs. If a bud-hist sows yam in a fertile soil, he will reap yam. The same goes for an atheist and the theist. In an earthquake or epidemic or accident, both theists and atheists are saved and killed. A deeper look on why these things are the way they are may open our eyes to the working of God. Best wishes.

This is really beautiful. The above words fell like water on my thirsty spirit. M_nwankwo thanks, and may the almighty reward you!

@DGreatMan
First, I commend you for wanting to avoid sin completely; that's very commendable and really shows that your repentance is genuine.

It is my perception that one can avoid sin completely; remember the biblical saying, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."(Mathew 5:48) And "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."(Mathew 5:20)

But you cannot become perfect overnight; like everything, it takes time, commitment, determination, and focus. Therefore do not complain or lament when sometimes you make a mistake; just learn from the mistake, pray about it and go on with your life. It is better to make mistakes with good volition than to give up because of mistakes. Try to learn from these mistakes, for they show you what and where you need to improve. It is part of growing process; no child learns to walk without stumbling and falling many times, but these falls do not deter the child, he gets up after each fall and tries again.

Also, let love well up in your heart for every humanbieng that you meet; Love is the strongest protection from hurting or maltreating people.

About sins involving sexual intercourse, I will share an insight with you. AVOID THE OPPUTUNITY. This is a very strong advice; avoid every opportunity that can lead to a sinful sexual intercourse. For example, a man should avoid the opportunity to be alone with a woman that he is not married to.  No matter how strong you think you are, when the opportunity presents itself, you may yield, especially in the case of sexual intercourse.

If you are friends with members of the opposite sex, meet them in public places – schools, churches, restaurants, and etc, -- never invite her to your room where you will be alone with her. Even if both of you are born again Christians, avoid being alone and isolated with her. If you two want to meet for bible studies and etc., always do the meeting in a public place, otherwise the Bible study may give way to something else.

Advice your friends of the opposite sex to dress appropriately, but be very careful so that you don’t hurt their feelings. A good strategy is to always complement them when they are wearing something appropriate, like long skirts and flowing gowns. This will encourage them to wear such dresses often around you. Never complement them when they are wearing very revealing cloths.

Most importantly, always pray to God for strength.

I wish you strength and may God bless.

@Pastor
Nice post.

It is my perception that the kingdom of Heaven is not just a thought, a conception, or a word; the kingdom of heaven is a place under the kingship of rulership of God, a place where the will of God reigns supreme.

The Kingdom of God is sometimes called the Kingdom of heaven because in the heavens, above the worlds of matter, the will of God reigns supreme. The Kingdom of heavens refers to a location(heaven), while the kingdom of God refers to the ruler(God). So the two terms are interchangeable; just as one can say “The government of America,” or “The government of Obama.” Both terms are interchangeable as long as Obama remains the head of the Government. This is a rough analogy, just to give you the idea.

So Back to the Kingdom of Heaven. Indeed the whole creation should be the Kingdom of God, but due to the failure of the human spirits in this part of creation, this part of creation is not part of the Kingdom of God; the reason for this is that the human spirits, in this part of creation, did not voluntarily submit to the will of God. This part of creation(let’s call it subsequent creation) is subject to the humans spirits; human spirits being part bearers of the Will of God should take the leadership and government of subsequent creation. This is hinted in the bible when it says that man was given dominion over the earth, including every creature in it. Man can only accomplish this task by voluntarily placing everything, including himself under the will of God; man should be a conscious mediator of the will of God in subsequent creation. But instead of this mankind set up kingdoms, empires, nations whose laws are contrary to the will of God.  With this failure of mankind, subsequent creation never became an extension of the Kingdom of God as it was intended. Hence the Kingdom(rulership) of God ended in the heavens above subsequent creation.

The innermost core of man, the spirit, the real man, originated in a part of the heavens called Paradise. Hence man originated from the Kingdom of God and bears a part of this Kingdom of God within himself, as his spirit, the immortal spark in man, the breath of God in man. This is why it is naturally man’s duty to extend the kingdom of God into subsequent creation (earth), because man bears a spirit which originated and is part of this Kingdom of God. This is hinted in the bible in the following verse,

“The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.” (Genesis 2:7)

No other creature in subsequent creation bear this "breath of Life" which is the Spirit in man, which is bears the will of God; this automatically gives man greater responsibility than all other creatures in subsequent creation or the worlds of matter to which this earth belongs.

It is man’s duty to utilize this ‘breath of life’ in him in forming his lifestyle, his empire, his kingdoms, and his environment, and voluntarily place everything under the will of God. Man knows this will of God too well because his spirit, which is a part bearer of this will, speaks to him through his coincidence or intuitive perception. Man failed in carrying out his task, he failed in listening to his conscience, and he built up everything on earth according to the will of his physical body (intellect)—lust, greed, gluttony. Enticed by Lucifer, man made his body(his intellectual perception) the ruler instead of his spirit(Conscience, intuition)

So when Christ said, “the kingdom of God is within you”(Luke 17:21). He was referring to the spirit in man, the breath of Life which God gave to man, which originating from the Kingdom of God bears a part of this Kingdom, and which man only need to listen to and obey in-order to fulfill his task on earth.

Also, in the Lord’s Prayer, we read, “thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” (Mathew 6:10) This goes to show that the kingdom of God, which at that moment only extended to heaven, can be extended unto the earth as well. And this is the task of mankind on earth.

Just like a king who sends people to a foreign land to set up his Kingdom in that foreign land; thus extend his Kingdom to a foreign land. If these messengers upon entering the foreign land set up a kingdom of their own, or a kingdom contrary to that of the King who sent them, then they failed their mission. And this is exactly what mankind did; this is the failure of mankind.

But in the end everything wrongly set up shall be destroyed. In the end even the earth will become part of the Kingdom of God like the Kingdom of heaven.

Suffice also for me to say that a man does not necessarily have to reside in a part of the Kingdom of God/ heaven to be under the Kingdom of God. A man who has voluntarily made God his King, a man who consciously lives in accord with the will of God is already under the Kingdom of God. In this instance, ‘the Kingdom of God’ is a condition of having made God your king and voluntarily and consciously serving His will. Such a man may still live on the earth; and even though the earth is not yet a part of the Kingdom of God, such a man is in the Kingdom of God. In biblical terms, such a person is “in the world but not part of the world.”

In conclusion. The Kingdom of God is a place where everything is in accord with the Will of God, a place where God rules supreme. Heaven(Paradise or the spiritual planes) is one of such places; hence, the Kingdom of heaven is also the Kingdom of God. As man originates from heaven(Paradise), man bears a part of this Kingdom within himself. And man, being the only creature on earth who bears a part of this kingdom within himself, carries the responsibility of extending this Kingdom all the way down to the earth.

Now consider all the ancient scriptural references to the Kingdom of God/heaven in the light of my explanation.

Thanks

benodic:
@ justcool (m)



my dear you have really said it all. for those who are matured enough to understand. everything that happens to us in life is all about one thing and that is to draw us ever closer home to God.

Thank you and may God bless.

@ xgel

There are two sides to this question. The first side is this:

(1)How do we know what a bad thing is?

We as humans with our limited perceptive ability cannot clearly overlook everything; only that which is at our level and that which is below us can we overlook. The highest thing in us, our true self, is our spirits, the breath of God in us; only through our spirits can we overlook or truly see anything as it really is. And even with our spirits we cannot see that which is beyond the spiritual ream, only that which is spiritual and below the spiritual can we fully comprehend; that which is Divine will remain a mystery to the human spirit. i.e. we can never know it fully. Hence when an individual slumbers spiritually (not utilizing his spiritual perception or intuition), naturally his ability to comprehend also narrows, albeit his being unaware of it. Such a person will hold on only to what his brain (intellect) can comprehend; but the realm of operation of the intellect is so limited, and hence a lot of things will not be understood by such a person, especially things having to do with the non-physical, God and His Love.

I will give an example to illustrate our limit in perception. A faithful believer prays to God to pass Jamb and enter university; while his fellow student laughs at him for praying. He studies, while his friends parties around; and in the end they take the exam, his friends, who never prayed to God, makes it while his own result is ceased, and hence he could not enter the university that year. He cries and wonders why God allowed such a bad thing to happen to him.

But what he does not know is that had he entered the university that year, he would have been exposed to temptations that he could not have withstood; he most likely would have lost his faith and end up a cult member who would have been pressure to commit murder or he may have been killed in the long run.

So what he thought was a bad thing—his jamb result being ceased—was actually not just a good thing but a blessing from above, an answer to his prayer. Because by not entering the university that year, his faith, his salvation or his soul, his most precious possession, is protected.  This alleged disappointment gives a whole year to build up his faith to be able to surmount the temptations that the university will come with, or neglect his faith and become like his friends. The choice is up to him. This alleged disappointment is nothing but a gift from God. But in his human intellectual perception he will not perceive this gift from the love of God. So what he calls a bad thing is actually the best thing that ever happened to him.

Behind everything, every blessing, in every disappointment lies the Love of God; everything is actually driven by the Love of God; but sometimes the outward manifestations of this love are hard for us to understand with our very limited intellect. 

Only experiences come later, after a disappointment, to show us that the disappointment was actually a blessing. So this guy while waiting for another year to take another jamb might win an American lottery visa; a greater opportunity comes his way, an opportunity he would have missed if he had entered the university along with his friends that year. Only then will he realize that the alleged disappointment was actually a blessing.

Now to the second side of the question.

(2) Sometimes the difficulties that people experience in life are actually a reaction from a former wrong action.

There is a law in creation that “each individual must reap what he/she has sown in the past”; this is the law of reciprocal action which manifests in the entire creation, and which is also a manifestation of the Love and Justice of God.

So the setbacks that a good person experiences now maybe as a result of the wrong things he did in the past; it could be in his previous incarnations.

Yet this is also a gift of love, as it affords the individual the opportunity to redeem his karma, because with such karma he cannot enter the kingdom of God. By going through the bad experiences he once put others through, if he learns from the experience, the karma is redeemed, and the individual is forgiven.  This is a great gift of love from God.

Apart from this, if he learns from the experience, he will become wiser and a more knowing person; for example, experiences can make a hardened man meek and compassionate, devastating blows of fate can make a proud man humble. This way experiences models us to become individuals worthy of Gods kingdom, if we learn from these experiences whether good or bad. They are priceless gifts.

In reality there is nothing like a bad experience; it lies with the individual whether to drive good from it or bad from it. When it comes to experiences, goodness or badness is only in our perception. All experiences, all that we encounter in life, are manifestation of the Love of God; they are priceless gifts.

I hope this helps.

Thanks and remain blessed.

I have treated this topic many times on this forum; for those who might want to examine my views, I will offer them once again.

Hell was not created by God. All that God created are perfect, beautiful, and not wanting in any way. Hell resulted from the activity of mankind; hence mankind created hell by misusing their free-will or by straying from the will of God.

There is a law in the entire creation that "One must reap what he/she has sown."  One who plants a seed of corn on a fertile farm will, during harvest, reap an ear of corns containing many seeds of corns. Creation is such a fertile ground where all our actions, words, and thoughts are planted; based on the law of attraction of homogenous species (like attracts like), all evil deeds accumulate in a plane in the beyond. There, like a seed planted in a fertile farm, they grow, blossom into various sublevels in this plane; this is hell. All that contributed to this plane by wrong actions, words, or deeds are drawn into this plane when they pass on. There they will reap what they have sown.

When the scriptures, or sacred ancient writings of various cultures say that "your works await you", this is not metaphoric like many people think. It is a reality. All that you do, say, or think, take on form in the beyond; they take on tangible forms, even your thoughts have tangible forms, they are your works because your produced them. Being their producer, they are tied to you with an invisible(to the physical eye) cord, yet they are accumulated and nourished to blossom in a plane of like nature in the beyond, a plane corresponding to their weight and nature. If the cords tying you to them are not severed before you pass on, ie before physical death, your soul will be drawn to this plane(Hell) where your evil works are accumulated. There you must reap what you have sown.

The only way to sever the ties from these planes is by living according to the will of God, by living in accord with the true teachings of Christ. The individual who stops acting, speaking or thinking in an evil way will gradually but surely lose all his/her ties to hell because they is no longer homogenous to him, or his nature. His/her true repentance will afford him experiences which will redeem him/her of his/her past wrong doings; he/she will be given an opportunity to redeem his/her karma in a symbolic way. As long as he/she remains steadfast with his/her true repentance, gradually he/she will be purified; losing all homogeneity to hell, he/she would become homogenous to the light planes where only good deeds are accumulated. Based on the law of attraction of homogenous species, such an individual will obtain a connection with or a tie to such light planes or Paradise. And when he/she passes on, he/she will be drawn or lifted to the beautiful light planes, planes that correspond to his/her inner weight and nature.

Hence the saying:  "But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.”
(Mathew 6:30). This saying, which corresponds to the Truth, is not metaphoric but reality.  Our good works, thoughts, and actions, actually have forms which are accumulated in a light plane, a plane corresponding to their weight; they are actually treasures which we store in the beyond, which awaits us, and which we must live through when we pass on.

Therefore Hell is the work of man, and not God. God did not create hell. Hell will gradually and automatically disappear if all men live in accord with the will of God.

Thanks

bobbyray:
If you belong to this great movement, lets have some talk in here

@bobbyray,

If by "Graail worshippers" you mean adherents of the Grail Message, then raise your issues/questions/concerns and I will gladly offer my perceptions. But keep in mind that the Grail Message is not a religion; it is simply a book or a teaching which anybody is welcome to adhere to. Being an adherent of the Grail Message or being a Crossbearer does not make one automatically a member of any movement.

Also, there has been many threads concerning the Grail Message in this forum; you might want to read some of them, perhaps you will out that the issues you have in mind has already been treated.

And finally, adherents of the Grail Message or Crossbearers do not worship the Grail. The Grail Message made it clear that only God should be worshipped.

Thanks and remain blessed.

@huxely.
God does not personally know every humanbeing on earth on a personal level. God only know people on earth through His laws. The Laws of God are perfect and they give to every creature exactly as the creature deserves. Thus one who does good will receive goodness; the reciprocal effects of this goodness will purify the individual, allowing him to achieve a lightness that will permit him/her to be lifted off the worlds of matter into the kingdom of God.

God does not know, neither does He seek to know, beforehand what the individual will decide. But He knows the consequence of each decision. Hence He sends prophets to warn people to make good the decisions. Once the decision is made, the individual is subject to the consequences of the decision.

The decision lies completely with man. God does not force man on what to decide, neither does He predestine man on what to decide. The choice lies completely with man; otherwise man would not have free will. But over many years of making wrong decisions, some humans have inclined themselves towards making bad decisions. Just as you can predict that a drug addict will do anything to take the drug he/she is addicted to. The same manner, prophets and knowing ones are able to predict, based on the inclination of the people, what decision the people will probably make. So in a way it is man that predestines himself, and not God.

It is due to this inclination developed by man, that God sends prophets to warn man to change his ways; hence develop an inclination towards goodness. No matter the inclination, if one prays for help, then in the face all situations he/she will receive the helps that he/she needs to make the right decision. Then over many years of making good decisions, the individual will be inclined towards making good decisions. This is tantamount to saying that his intuition, or his spirit has awakened.

So our future is not written in stones. The individual makes his fate.

I hope this helps. Feel free to raise questions.

Thanks

@sunken

Here are questions to ask yourself:

(1)When you watch indecency, what types of thoughts do you indulge in? Or can you watch pron without indulging in impure thoughts? Can you watch indecency without lusting after the women in the picture?

(2)Is it Christlike to lust? Or is right to indulge in lustfull thoughts?


If you honestly answer the above question then it will become clear to you wheather watching indecency it is a sin or not.

Also keep in mind:
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart(Mathew 5:28)

"Keep the hearth of your thoughts pure, by so doing you will bring peace and be happy!" Abd-ru-shin.


Thanks

MyJoe:
A Fulani Creation Story

At the beginning there was a huge drop of milk
Then Doondari came and he created the stone.
Then the stone created iron;
And iron created fire;
And fire created water;
And water created air.
Then Doondari descended a second time. And he took the five elements
And he shaped them into man.
But man was proud.
Then Doondari created blindness and blindness defeated man.
But when blindness became too proud,
Doondari created sleep, and sleep defeated blindness;
But when sleep became too proud,
Doondari created worry, and worry defeated sleep;
But when worry became too proud,
Doondari created death, and death defeated worry.
But when death became too proud,
Doondari descended for the third time,
And he came as Gueno, the eternal one
And Gueno defeated death.


This one is the creation story of the Efe, a forest pygmy people of the DR Congo

The Forbidden Fruit

God created the first human being with the help of the moon. God kneaded the body out of clay. Then God covered it with skin and the end God poured blood into it. God called the first human Baatsi.

Then God whispered into his ear telling him to beget many children, but to impress upon the children the following rule: from all trees you may eat, but not from the Tahu tree.

Baatsi had many children and he made them obey the rule. When he became old he retired to heaven. His children obeyed the rule and when they grew old they too retired to heaven.

But one day a pregnant woman was seized with an irresistible desire to eat the fruit of the Tahu tree. She asked her husband to break some for her, but he refused. But when she persisted, the husband gave in. He crept into the forest at night, picked the Tahu fruit, peeled it, and hid the peel in the bush. But moon had seen him, and she told God what she had seen.

God was so angry with humans that he sent death as a punishment to men.

Very illuminating!!!!!!

I didn't notice this thread up till now.

@ilosiwaju

You are welcome to use my posts. But keep in mind that my submissions are just my perceptions, I am not God neither am I a prophet or anything like that. I am just a human being offering my perceptions. You should always let readers know this, where ever you quote me.

Thanks.

@Deepsight

Like I said earlier, the author never used the expression “ethereal form of a generating thought.” But I sense what you are trying to quote, and since this is your major bone of contention, I will deal exclusively with it on this post.

Here is exactly what the author wrote:

“Just a thought when it arises is simultaneously perceived intuitively, with a greater or lesser intensity, so its ethereal form will bear an equivalent life.”  The Grail Message volume II. From the lecture: “Thought-Forms.”

I believe this is the quote you are summarizing by “ethereal form of a generating thought” If I'm wrong please correct me.

Now in the quote above, you can decipher that the author is talking about two different things, namely (1) “Just as a thought arises….” This part is dealing with the thoughts that arise from the brain, i.e., the gross material thoughts. As it arises from the brain or as it is being generated or as the brain forms it, then something else happens, (2) it is simultaneously perceived intuitively. This is where the spirit comes in. It is this intuitive perceiving that is a volition of the spirit. And this volition takes on form in the ethereal realm. Hence “the ethereal form will bear equivalent life” i.e. the life or strength of the ethereal form depends on how much the intuition or the volition of the spirit was involved.

So as the a thought arises in the brain in the planes of fine gross matter it takes on form which is fine gross matter all through to its core. As the thought arises or as the brain thinks, if this thinking is felt by the spirit as well, a volition takes on form in the ethereal realm.

So in fine gross matter we have thought-forms, and in the ethereal realm we have ethereal form. The thought-forms are forms of the thinking that arises in the brain; while the ethereal forms are forms of volitions that arises from the intuitive perception of the spirit.

Here the process is described as coming from outside, i.e. a thought arising in the brain is felt by the spirit which then forms a volition. It can also happen the other way round, i.e. a volition arising from the spirit induces the brain to think or produce thought forms.

Thus the ethereal form and the thought form are two different things; two different species in different planes of creation. One is ethereal, alive, and has an animating core; while the other is fine gross material and doesn't have a mobile core.

This is absolutely not a contradiction.

Deep Sight:
Thanks for providing these extracts. I must say I had not averted my mind to them.

What is thereby made obvious is that there exists a contradictory flow of thought development within the Grail Message regarding this matter. If the authour believes thoughts to be matter, I must say i quietly and humbly do not share his view on that. And as I have shown, there is much that he himself wrote that gives a lie to such a perspective. It only shows that the message is not a perfect work, and that it contains some gaps and inconsistencies. I say this particularly in light of my concerns in the two posts preceding this namely -

I have not seen any inconsistencies in the Grail Message; the Grail Message contains no gaps, not even a gap as minute as a hair’s breadth.

But the writer does not encourage laziness or spiritual lukwarmness. He doesn’t give the knowledge in a platter of gold. The knowledge is arranged like a jigsaw puzzle; the reader must work hard and put it all together. This way He forces the reader towards spiritual movement.

To him who tries to approach it with the intellect, it remains the book sealed with seven seals, exactly as the revelation of John said.

Like all that comes from above, it is wrapped. One who wants to make use of it must patiently unwrap it. Just like a fruit, let’s say an orange, comes with a warp which you must carefully peel. If you swallow the fruit without first working on it, rather than nourishing you it may even kill you. This is an automatic working that lies in all that God gives, one must first prove himself worthy to receive the gift, by working tirelessly on it.

And please do not take this personally; I don’t mean that you are a lazy. I’m only trying to show you that the author purposely wrote it that way, everybody must struggle with it. Even I myself had to struggle; but in this struggle you will find strength and mobility. This struggle awakens your intuition.

So you have done nothing wrong. The fact that you put everything to scrutiny already shows that your spirit is not dead. The fact that the Grail message leaves you no peace is actually commendable, it shows that you are not indifferent to it; for only one who is dead spiritually will be indifferent to the Grail Message.

But you, my friend, are definitely not indifferent or uncaring to spiritual matters; and that is commendable.

Deep Sight:
1. He writes that all matter, gross or ethereal, are coverings only. What is a thought a covering of, if it is matter? Is it possible for a covering to be lighter and less coarse than its core? No it is not, just as the spirit cannot be more coarse than physical matter. Accordingly it is impossible for him to speak of " the ethereal form of a generating thought" if indeed thoughts are matter The only way he can speak of such is if the generating thought is actually something lighter than the ethereal form.

I have already dealt with the issue of “the ethereal form of a generating thought.”  Thoughts have fine gross material forms. At the beginning of the message everything non-physical is grouped as beyond, or ethereal. Only in later lectures was the beyond clarified to be made up of different species. The message is written in the form of a flight of stairs, one thing leads to another.

Even without the above in mind, there is no contradiction in the expression “the ethereal form of a generating thought,” if you look at it this way: The thought being generated by the brain is fine gross matter, the ethereal form of it is the volition of the spirit. If a thought is so strong that it is perceived by the spirit, then while the thought(fine gross matter) is being generated by the brain, the spiritual volition, corresponding to the thought and has an ethereal covering or form will also be generated in the ethereal realm.

This ethereal form of the thought is a counterpart or an ethereal replica of the gross material thought for. They are two different things.

It is the volition that has an ethereal form; the forms covering the animistic core of the form. Hence the form (coarser substance) is covering the animistic core(finer substance).

As a volition rises in the spirit, it forces thoughts to arise in the brain too. These thoughts are fine gross matter. Sometimes due to indolence of the spirit, the forms or thoughts arising from the brain is not in accord with the volition; and sometimes volitions, thoughts, words and actions are not in accord. Each takes on forms and operates in a different plane of creation. But the spiritual volition carries the most weight.

Now coming to “all matter, gross matter, ethereal, are coverings only”; I have already explained to you that this is in regard to creatures with mobile cores i.e. mobile creatures like man and animals. In regard to these creatures, the gross material and ethereal bodies are only coverings or cloaks, and not the creature itself. 

This does not mean that all gross matter and ethereal matter in subsequent creation is covering a mobile core. Plants for example, are living things that do not have mobile cores. The physical plant is coarsest gross matter all the way to its core.

But this is only scratching the surface; for that statement “all matter, gross matter, ethereal, are coverings only” is very deep. Keep in mind that in the heart of every atom resides spiritual particle or dust. This will take us far away from the theme of this thread but I will just briefly mention that; The radiation of the Primordial beings causes very weak loose spiritual particles to fly off into the animistic realm. Based on the law that all that is spiritual is magnetic, once these particles enter the animistic realm, they attract loss animistic substances as their coverings. Consequently they become heavy and fall deeper and deeper until they enter the realms of ethereal and gross matter. On entering the gross material planes, they receive coverings from lose gross material substances and becomes the most basic substances that make up parts of the atom.

This is why I said that energy and matter or mass cannot be separated. Pure energy is actually the spiritual dust particles which in the physical realm already wear so many cloaks.

So when I say physical energy; it is the energy that results from the spirit dusts after it was put on a physical covering. Ethereal energy is the energy that results from the same spiritual dusts when it is wearing ethereal substance as its outmost covering. Actually pure energy is spiritual.

Since the components of atoms are made up of these cloaked spiritual dusts, and atoms make up matter, one can say that matter is made up of energy.

Considering this process, then the statement that “all matter, gross matter, ethereal, are coverings only” is very valid.

The spiritual dusts that I mean here are not spirit germs; spiritual dusts or particles are lower degradation of the spiritual, they can be likened to dusts and not spiritual creatures or spirit germs.

Deep Sight:
2. In creation it is not possible for matter to be the quickening element in anything. It is rather quickened by something else. Thus again it would be impossible to conceive of matter generating ethereal forms, for that would mean that matter itself is alive in and of itself and proceeds to generate forms that are higher than itself. This simply does not add up.

I already explained to you that it is not the matter that generates the ethereal form. While the fine gross material form of the thought is being generated, the ethereal form corresponding is also being generated according to the volition of the spirit. The ethereal forms is animated or to use your expression quickened by an animistic substance. The volition wearing an ethereal covering could be regarded as the ethereal form of the thought. The thought itself is fine gross matter all the way to its core and remains in the realm of fine gross matter.

I hope this helps; it is my perception, and you can always disregard it if it doesn’t make sense to you.

Thanks

Deep Sight:
I am surprised that you do not see that the cited extract still applies, whether you state thoughts to be fine gross matter or ethereal matter - becuase the extract states that both gross and ethereal matter are coverings only. Is a thought a covering? A covering of what?

Both gross matter and ethereal matter are only coverings in regards to mobile creatures. The outermost bodies of the creatures in subsequent creation are made of up either gross or ethereal matter depending on which plane of subsequent creation the creature is. This does not mean that all ethereal and gross material substances are coverings. Trees are coarsest gross matter all the way to their core, just like thought, they do not have mobile cores. Mountains and etc all belong to the same category.

Deep Sight:
It is quite obvious to me what the message says regarding this. And it is similarly obvious that your view is not in consonance with what the message says.

Well, this is your perception.

Deep Sight:
It is actually worse that you claim thoughts to be fine gross matter: because in that event Abd Ru Shin's words when he refers to "the ethereal form of a generating thought" would then become absurd - because would we say that something gross material has a covering which is lighter and higher than it? That cannot wash because you are aware that coverings are always coarser than cores.

I have already clarified this. That lecture “Thought forms” is dealing with the forms. Spiritual volitions have ethereal covering, they have forms too. Both unlike thought forms, spiritual volitions have a mobile core made of animistic substance. Both forms, (ethereal forms of spiritual volitions and fine gross material forms of thoughts) operate within the same laws of creation, in that their forms are always in accord with their nature, either ugly or beautiful. Thought forms operate in the plane of fine gross matter, while spiritual volitions wearing ethereal forms operate in the ethereal planes. That lecture “thought forms” is dealing with the forms, their formations, mode of operation and etc.

Deep Sight:
Again, remember that in creation, it is the inner element of a thing that generates an outward form and not vice versa. The outward form does not generate the inner element.

How then is it possible for something material to generate something ethereal. It should be the other way round.

So then the phrase "the ethereal form of a generating thought. . .?

Both the brain and the thoughts are still gross matter. Fine gross matter is still gross matter. And the brain does not create anything, it only forms; neither does it generate anything ethereal. While you are thinking, the brain gathers find gross material substances and forms them accordingly. Just as when the muscle is working, it gathers blood that passes through it. When you are thinking, the brain gathers lose fine gross matter that floats in the fine gross material realm and molds it into forms. This is a very broad picture, because the elementals also play a part in the molding and maintenance of forms. Both the thought and its forms are material.

Although the author never actually wrote "ethereal forms of a generating thought", I sense what verse you are trying to quote and I will offer my perception. "ethereal form of a generating thought" means the ethereal form of a thought in the process of formation. It does not mean that the thought generate ethereal forms. The thought (fine gross matter) and the ethereal form(spiritual volition) are two different things; the ethereal form is formed as a result of the spiritual volition, while the thought is formed from the thinking in the brian. For a volition that arises in the spirit, usually the ethereal form of this volition is already completed, or the volition has already taken on the ethereal realm, while the thought(fine gross matter) is being fashioned or generated as the brian thinks. It is not the thought generated or formed by the brain that wears an ethereal form; rather it is the forms of spiritual volition that wears an ethereal form having animistic substance as its animating core.

Thanks

@Deepsight

I have already made familiar to you that you cannot pick out verses from the Grail Message like that. The Grail Message is a whole, its like a jigsaw puzzle, picking out a piece of the puzzle may give an entirely different idea of what the entire picture looks like. I have already explained this to you so there is no need repeating it. But since you are already familiar with the entire message, I will also pick out two verses for you.


Read the lecture "At the boundary of Gross Matter." In the volume III of the message. From there I lift this quote:

"Your thoughts too, are, only of gross material nature, being products of your brain. They belong to fine gross matter, which consequently also embraces all the thought-forms that can so often be seen by mediums." Abd-ru-shin

Latter in the same paragraph we read:

"Thoughts as well as thought-forms are still of a gross material nature even though they are part of fine gross matter. They are not ethereal." Abd-ru-shin.

Please read the entire lecture.

Thanks

Deep Sight:
I was just reading the Grail Message again yesterday and i went over the Lecture "Gross matter, ethereal matter, radiations, Space & Time."

I came across this and I quote -
- The Grail message, Hardback 3 - in - 1 volume PAGE 489

For me, this makes it abundantly clear as I have said already that the Grail Message does not teach that thoughts are ethereal matter, for you surely would not say a thought is a "covering" - the authour has made it clear that both gross matter and ethereal matter are coverings only.

This, taken together with the other quotes i set out from the Grail Message above certainly rest the issue. For I quoted the message as conveying "the ethereal form of a generating thought" - which makes it clear that the ethereal form is just that - a form - and is not the generating thought itself.

@Deep sight

The verse that you quoted does not apply to our discussion on this thread. Gross matter and ethereal matter serve as coverings for creatures, because gross matter and ethereal matter are inherently immobile; all creatures with mobile core must carry either a primordial spiritual, spiritual, or animistic core. Ethereal and gross matter only cover these cores when the creature enters subsequent creation, I believe I have already explained this even in this thread.

Thoughts are not creatures with mobile core. And I never said that thoughts are ethereal matter; I have always maintained that thoughts are fine gross matter. I have said this many times in this thread already, yet you keep implying that I said thoughts are ethereal matter.

Thoughts are material; they are fine gross matter.

Thanks and remain blessed.

Deep Sight:
This post is actually an argumentation in favour of what I am saying.

No! Not exactly! Read my words carefully. In no way does my premise favour lying!

Deep Sight:
You cannot suggest that that was the only instance in all of recorded history where the violent action taken was in line with the Divine will and helped to protect divinely willed sequences.

In the case of Abd-ru-shin it was not murder; it was in accord with the will of God. This is my perception though. When God uses the elementals(animistic/elemental beings) to dispose a man of his physical body, would you call that murder? Murder implies two things (1) It was carried out by man(human spirit) (2) Against the will of God or not by God's instruction. I have already said that I don't believe that God uses a human being(human spirit) to dispose another human being of his physical body. Whenever a man kills another, except in self defence, it is murder and hence wrong.

Killing in self defence is like lying with good intention; the volition of the spirit is to save ones life, but in the physical implementation of this volition, another life was taken. The physical reciprocal action will be mitigated by the rays emanating from the volition. Depending on how strong the volition is, the consequence of the physical action can be completely disintegrated; It could be redeemed symbolically, even the expression of sadness for the person killed may be enough to serve as the redemption.

Murder is never justified. But God has the right to take away life; and whenever it is done by God, it is always out of love and justice. It is never justified for Man(humans spirits) to take the life of another in the belief that he/her is doing the will of God. Read my words carefully, in the case that you mentioned, there is a difference.

But man has the right to defend himself, his country or that which is most sacred in him; in this defence he must make sure that there is no alternative. He must first offer the offender an opportunity to resolve the issue without bloodshed and without the will of God being compromised; exactly like Abd-ru-shin did. But if the offender refuses, then one can only fight like with the like. i.e you can oly defend a physical attack by a physical means.

If a foreign country declares war against your country, you should not sit there and let them kill everybody in your country. You should seek for peacefull resolution of the conflict. Most importantly you should turn to God in prayer. But then if the enemy persists you should arm yourself and fight in defence. A servant of God does not have to be weakling; indeed it is a sin to be a weakling. Sometimes fighting a war in self defence cannot be avoided, but lying can always be avoided. It is not wrong to fight a war in defence.

If you load a gun and come to my house with the intention of killing my family; the situation of me lying to defend them would not arise because I will blow off your head before you knock on my door. But I have to make sure that there is no other way for me to prevent you without killing you.

I am a servant of God but I am not a weakling. Make no mistake about it. Actually resorting to lying is cowardice; for if you put a gun on my head and ask to disclose to you where my family is hiding, I will simply tell you to shoot. Or if you put a gun in my head ask me to throw away my faith in God or you would shoot; I will simply tell you to go ahead and shoot.

Deep Sight:
If you suggest such, that would be nothing but special pleading.

I never suggested that. Even Jesus had to forcefully drive the thieves and money changers out of His fathers house, out of the temple of worship. There is a thing called righteous aggression! There is a reason why beings like Mars exist in creation. But the human spirit does not swing in the ray of aggression because the human spirit is spiritual. Aggression is quality that lies in the animistic, or a quality that flows through the animistic. Some times(in very special cases) in answer to a prayer, the rays of aggression are anchored in a human being, so that such a human being can become brave and fight a righteous war; such a person, immediately after death, the ray of aggression detaches from his spirit and returns to the animistic or substantiate being from whence it issued. This has happened many times in history. Or sometimes a being(not human) is sent from above, to incarnate on earth as a human being, to carry out such aggressive tasks. The people around such a person offten sense that there was something extraordinary about him; this sensing gives rise to myths that the person was a lion or born of a lion. The ancient Romans used to circulate such myths about some of their generals.

Even angels battle against Lucifer and his volitions. Even Parsifal had to battle with Lucifer. And this is not just metaphorically speaking but real battle. Battling or fighting in self defence is not wrong. Provided that there is no other way to save that which is being attacked, and that in the battle or war you do only that which is necessary to prevent the attacker. And such a war cannot be for selfish purposes but defence of the will of God.

The human spirit by its nature, never swings in the ray of aggression; the spirit is inherently peaceful in its nature. Whenever a humanbeing is aggressive or angry, it is often out of hatred, fear, or jealousy. Except in very special cases like I mentioned above, it is hardly ever the righteous agreesion which comes from above; this aggression hardly connects with spirits. But Jesus carrying Divine unsubstantiate carry all radiations in their pure form within Him; out of a Divine being, righteous agreesion can flow.

This does not mean that servants of God should sit around and let an enemy army kill them off. When necessary the human spirit is connected with the ray of righteous aggression to defend itsself, its country or its faith, even physically. In such wars, killing children and women as well as killing a man who has surrendered is out of the question. Even the enemy wounded during such wars should be treated with love and given medical care. This automatically excludes modern warfare where people stay in their houses and throw bombs to others killing even women and children.

So what was flowing through Jesus when He was forcefully driving the thieves out of His fathers house was righteous aggression. It was not the anger that we are familiar with, the anger that humans exhibit out of frustration. It was pure aggression and completely justified. The same is applicable with the example you gave from the book "From Past millennia."

Thanks

@Deepsight

I was rushing to answer your question, but M_nwankwo has already done that. I believe his answer dealt with all the issues that you raised in reference to my last post. I agree with his perceptions here and I don't have much to add.

The only thing I will like to say is that issue with Abd-ru-shin is very different, and completely within the laws of God. How I wish I can go deeply into it here; but I cant because such would not be compliant to the wish of Abd-ru-shin who never wished for such unnecessary attention to be drawn on His personality. Coupled with the fact that such would derail this thread. I'm only going to say a little:

In the example that you gave, the man took it upon himself to lie. In the case of Abd-ru-shin; it wasn't a presumption, He was acting on the will of God. All life and all physical bodies are a gift from God; only God can decide when to take away this gift from any creature. God sometimes uses the elementals to accomplish this task, I'm yet to see an instance where God used a human spirit developed from spirit germs to accomplish such a task. In the case of human beings killing another, it is always a presumption that they are acting in the will of God; and hence such killings are not justified. In the case of Abd-ru-shin, consider the people that the man(the man who was killed) captured; they were called ones sent from God for the benefit of the entire mankind. By such an action the man had declared war against the fulfillment of Divine promises on earth, fulfillment that the entire mankind depended on spiritually. When your country is attacked, it is within the laws of God to fight back and protect your country. It would be wrong to sit down and allow an enemy to destroy an entire country. The enemy that Abd-ru-shin freed from his physical body was a threat to the survival of the entire mankind; in that he was threat to a Divine fulfillment on which the spiritual survival of mankind depended on. For Nahome and her mother(the little girl and the woman) who the man captured were called ones. Also keep in mind that Abd-ru-shin gave the man the opportunity to hand over the captives, to set the captives free, but the man refused. Also freeing him saved him from a karma that would may have sealed his fate for eternity.

I barely scratched the surface though. If you trace the path and the origin of everybody involved in that event, you will easily recognise that what happened was a manifestation of the love of God.

Thanks

Ndipe:
Thought as much when I was about to ask, are you a member of eckankar?

No. I am not.

Deep Sight:
what if i tell a lie to protect my family from an assassin. Such as telling him they are not at home when in truth they are hiding under the bed. Will you state that this is wrong under the laws of God?

@Deep Sight and Ndipe

The process can easily be surveyed. For a man who truly loves his family, this love emanates from his spirit and forms a protective aura around him. By telling a lie to save his family, this lying or speaking is a gross material action which will receive a reaction of like nature. This reaction will be returned to the man based on the law of reciprocal action. This reaction on reaching the man, will be mitigated or completely defused or disintegrated by the protective aura of such a man.

The greatly mitigated karma may end up being redeemed by an unconscious symbolic action. The next day or the next month, this man may meet a stranger asking for direction; by stopping and offering the stranger direction, this man has reaped the karma resulting from his lying. He has balanced the equation without knowing it. At first he told a lie by withholding the truth or misdirecting/misleading another person; then letter he offered a stranger direction by speaking the truth or giving the stranger to right direction. The karma that may have necessitated that he became a victim of a lie or deception, now gets paid without him being a victim. What would have caused him sorrow now causes him joy, for helping the stranger gives him(the man who once lied) joy. Like the Yorubas would say, “what would have severed your head has just knocked off your hat.”

Speaking belongs to gross matter, words take on forms in the realm of medium gross matter. But spiritual intentions are far stronger and far more reaching in their effect. The volition that gave rise to the lie was a good volition, and hence its consequences will out weigh the consequences of words. Even though the reciprocal effect of the spiritual volition will be reaped by the man’s spirit; it effects is very far reaching, this volition radiates through the aura of the man offering him protection even in the gross material realms. This is why I maintained that the intention is the most important, here by intention I mean that which emanates from the spirit.

The radiation of the spirit permeates everything; hence a man's environment or situations he often finds himself in is often a reflection of his inner being(his spiritual state). Therefore if this intention is really a strongly emanating from the spirit it can affect the man's situation in ways that he may never find himself in a situation where he will have to do something wrong or lie in-order to save his family.

Should ever find himself in such a situation, a way will be shown to him through which he can save his family without lying.

Have you considered that the man could have simply refused to disclose where his family was?  Rather than lying he could have just said, “I won’t tell you where they are.”

Thus the spiritual volition is justified but the lie is not. The ‘lying’ only reveals this man’s inability to anchor his volition in the right in the physical realm or gross matter.

If you are truly earnest in serving God or in doing the right thing, you will never have to lie or do anything wrong to implement a good volition or do the will of God.

Thanks

enitan2002:
it is the motive behind the action that matter most, it can either be justified or other way round, depending on those taking the decision.

@enitan2002

You are not totally missguided. While I agree with you that "it is the motive behind the action that matter most"; a bad action remains a bad action that can never be justified.

A bad action, like stealing, even when a good motives is behind it, is still action that will receive a reaction corresponding to its nature. The reciprocal action resulting from this action will greatly be mitigated or reduced by the rays of good motive which emanating from the spirit forms a protective layer around the individual. It is different with one who doesn't have a good motive, such a person will be more severely hit by the reciprocal action resulting from the bad action; because he has no protection in his aura due to his lack of good motive.

Either every evil action(no matter the motive behind it) will give rise an evil reciprocal action. Therefore no evil action is ever justified.

Thanks and remain blessed.

^^^^^^^^^^

Very beautiful!!! I completely agree. By the way, m_nwankwo where have you been? Nigeria? We missed you and your wise inputs.


Wellcome back!!!!!!

thehomer:
I disagree with the claim of deception. The video was about the origins of the Christian and Jewish God and by extension, the Muslim God. I mentioned this in the body. If it were about say the Pantheistic God, then it would have been misleading.

Wrong. There is nothing like Christian, Jewish, and Muslim God; they are all perceptions of God. In the evolution of these religious deities(various religious perceptions of God) is mirrored the development or the evolution of the people. It is the people that evolved not God. The real God needs not evolve for He is perfection itself; He commands nobody to kill or harm his/her neighbor neither does He require any blood sacrifice or religion.

The name "God" was not derived or gotten from any of the religions that you mentioned or was mentioned in the video. The word "God" is an English word derived from the Germanic word "ǥuđan"; read the etymology of the word God.

Actually the word "God" is directly, if not inseparably, linked to pantheism; if you study the etymology of the word "God" you will understand what I mean. The word "pantheism" is derived from two Greek words: "πᾶν (pan)" and "θεός (theos)". "Pan"  means all, universal, or not personal; while "theos" means deity. Thus panteism deals with the deity as somthing standing by itself and born out of any religion as such; an the English word "God" refers to such a deity.

Although different religions borrow this word "God", it does not belong to these religion; all these religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam,) have a name which the call their Deity, a name which is peculiar to them. If the video maker had used the name that the various religions call their deity, then the video would have been more honest. But I'm not saying that the video is deliberately being dishonest; it is just using the word (God) that he doesn’t really understand.


God is God; He does not belong to any religion.

Thanks.