₦airaland Forum

stag:
@justcool.
you seem to know much about the message and should know about the messengers, so please, react to rotimy's claims of the messengers being 'weird and isoteric'

@ stag
Thanks for your questions. Here are my answers:

First of all, nobody on earth is called a Grail messenger, and the book never called any human being a Grail messenger. So that term, "Grail Messenger" is a pseudo term invented by people who have not read the Message. When you understand what the Grail actually is, then you will see why no human can be called "Grail Messanger."

About "weird and isoteric". The book did not bring a new religion, neither did it bring an organisation nor any cult. The book is simply written for "man" irrespective of his race, religion, nationality, gender, or age.  It does not ask for people to leave their religions or to start a new one. Therefore in actuality, the book is not religious; it is spiritual. It teaches that every individual is responsible before God for his/her actions and every individual should decide for himself/herself on what to believe. And It encourages people to use their God given free will -- weigh and examine. Therefore everybody is left to do whatever he/she wants after reading the book, the writer does not force you to do anything. HE respects the God given free will which we humans posses. Therefore it is unfair to judge the book based on what some people do. If any body is "weird and isoteric" that is the individual's choice which has nothing to do with the Grail Message.
The Grail message encourages readers to be simple(truthful), natural, and avoid all kinds of mysticism.

stag:
the truth is, the book is fascinating but i sense some kind of occult undertone in the whole set up as i have once attended their public lecture. i was not comfortable at all so i have decided to buy the hardcover version of the volume 1, 2, 3 and read them on my own.

There is no occult undertone in the book. The book actually warns against all kinds of occultism. It is only people who have not read the book or who cannot understand it, that call it occult. In so many lectures of the book, the writer explains occultism and warns the reader not indulge in such practices. Please can you show me where you saw any occult undertone in the book?

The book and its writer did not start a new religion, or a cult. There a many adherents of the Grail Message who stay on their own, there also many who still belong to their religions. There are many who decided to be sealed and receive the cross. These are called cross bearers. However, this is not a religion. The cross bearer can decided to continue his or her religion. He is free to do whatever he wants, the cross only binds him/her to God and nothing else. Some cross bearers come together to for some aim-- usually to make the book know to the world. They form an organisation which still is not a religion because they are still individually answerable to God and not the organisation. They hold public lectures, they exchange ideas, they worship together. But still this is not a religion because the book never demanded that the reader join any organization. Every individual is left to decide wheather he/she wants to be a cross bearer or not.

stag:
react to rotimy's claims

I offer explanations to you (stag) because you seem unbiased. About rotimy's claims, my advise to you is to apply the principles you read from the Grail message. The massage advices the reader to weigh and examine everything carefully and with his/her God's given intuition(conscience). Therefore weigh and examine everything you read in this thread with your conscience, and you will easily recognise the Truth. Jesus already taught us how to recognise the Truth from darkness: "By their works(fruits) you shall know them." The words that I write to you are my works(my fruits) and the words that rotimy writes to you are his works(his fruits). They both clearly speak for themselves and you can easily recognise who is who.
Also ask yourself these questions:
1) What is the righteous thing to do when you are asked about an issue that you don't know?
2) What will Jesus(or any righteous person) answer if He was asked about a book He has not read?
3) Would He condemn them and call them "wired and esoteric" just because he has not read the book?
4) Is it right to hate and condemn what you don't understand? Is hatread and persecution a quality of God or the Devil?
4) Is it right to judge a book based on what some of it's readers do?
5) Are there not readers of the bible who still commit all kinds of atrocities. would you blame their actions on the bible?

Rotimy has already told us that:

rotimy:
I have not read the book and will NEVER touch it based on Grail's Messengers weird and esoteric life styles. I think the book will be a mind bender and a brain washer.

If he has not read the book, then where does he get this idea that the book is a brain washer.

Thanks and remain blessed.

I have found the clarification that I sought on the issue of Jesus walking on water with His physical body. I maintain my perception on this issue. I have been given further clarification that straightened my perception on this issue. It is impossible for one to walk on water with the physical body. Jesus did not do that.
The same laws of God that could not permit Him to come down from the cross, would not allow Him to walk on water. It is simply against the laws of creation, ie laws of nature which are also laws of God.

I have read the book over and over again, and I have found it to be foolproof. I have put the book to scrutiny and It lived up to all It's claims. I have found it to be the TRUTH.

But don't base your assessment on just my opinion, weigh and examine everything you read. The author demands that you weigh and examine everything, unlike other religious books, the Grail Message does not require blind faith on anything. If you weigh and examine the contents of the book with an unbiased mind, you will definitely discover that it is the TRUTH.

Also, you will not be able to absorb the whole contents of the book in one reading. The book contains a lot, indeed everything. I have read it many times and each time I discover something new. But if you read carefully and with an open mind, you will get enough to convince you that the book contains the TRUTH even the first time you read it.

The book answers all questions concerning the human existence -- the purpose of human existence, humans relationship with God, and how humans should live. It goes further than that, It also explains the whole creation of God-- from the spiritual realm to the physical realm, and all the beings in creation. It goes further to explain things above creation--from the Divinity unsubstantiate(God) and the Divine plane. It also gives clarifications about Jesus(who was indeed the son of God), His teachings and His mission on earth.

You are welcome to share some issue that you don't understand in the book, I will be more than happy to offer clarification.

Thanks and remain blessed.

@Kobojunkie

I take back my offer of friendship. I do not hate and yes I am here to make friends. Eventhough I will not descend to your level, I do not beg your friendship.

So suit yourself.

@Kobojunkie
Okay lets put our differences behind us and continue on the discussion of how to better the image of our beloved country.

justcool:
@Kobojunkie
I am sorry but you sound like those foolish people who will spend all their time complaining about their marriage partners, but still will not end the marriage.

I didnt mean the above to be an insult. I tried to make it friendly by putting "sorry" there. And I didn't say you are foolish, I just said that you sounded like one. But I apologise, Perhaps I should have chosen my words more carfully.

I also advice you to be more careful in choosing your words. It is very bad to say,  "you are just another dishonest Nigerian." Because by implication you are saying that all Nigerians are dishonest. It would have been better if you had just said, "you are just a dishonest person."
Perhaps you don't hate Nigerian, but your choice of words in describing Nigeria presents you as hating Nigeria. Just to apprear cordial, and for the sake of justice, you should say things like, "I am not saying that all Nigerians are bad."

I shouldn't have brought your user name into it. But it was actually meant to be humorous. I didn't mean any insult by it.

I don't think that seeklove is using America to defend the bad characters in Nigeria. From what I gathered, he maintained that "there are good and bad people in all nations." To which I agree. It is well known that Nigerians love America(and there is nothing wrong in this) I love America too, so if we could love America despite knowing that even in America there are bad people too. Why do we hate Nigeria and label her Hishonest just because she has some bad apples. We, and the whole world, should extend the same courtesy that they offer America to Nigeria.

Are we friends now
Good old Nigerian friendship


@all
Remember Nigerians are one of the most religious people in the world. Why are we not know as religious rather than scammers. This is injustice!!!!!

@KunleOshob
Thanks for your questions.

KunleOshob:
is Jesus christ not the founder of the Christian religion

The answer is NO. Jesus did not found any religion. Every religion on earth today was founded by man.

KunleOshob:
or is the christian religion not based on his teachings

If Christian religions are based on His teachings then why the diversity among the beliefs of Christians. So many Christian church holds different views on who Jesus is, what is needed for salvation, etc.
Even if you say that they are based on His teachings, it still does not mean that what they teach and practice are actually His teachings, since each Christian church has a different interpretation of Jesus's teachings. 

KunleOshob:
or is what is being preached in churches different from the message of Jesus christ I beg i need some answers

You can answer this for yourself. Take the teaching of one Christian church to another Christian church and ask them if this is Christ's teaching. Observe their answer. What is preached today is based on the interpretations of what is written in the bible. Most interpretations are more or less wrong and cannot be called the teachings of Christ. The correct thing to say is that they are the teachings of the church.
Also, the scriptures interpreted were not written by Jesus personally, Jesus's never wrote any book. According to scholars, the gospels were written based on the accounts of those that were eyewitnesses, and not the eyewitnessers themself. All of them were written many years after the departure of Jesus. And, overtime, they have been interfeed with and translated to different languages. So many things might have been lost in the translations.

Thanks and remain blessed

@Kobojunkie
The thing with people like you is that if one gives you an opportunity to dismiss youself without disgrace, you will still stay on stage and disgrace yourself. In this thread you have done nothing but insult Nigerian and other posters. You called seeklove "another dishonest Nigerian," you called Ifygurl, "another Nigerian with emotional issues." You called me an idiot. Still we all reply cordially and with respect to you. Doesn't  this make you think? Don't you have shame? And when I told you to chill you replied with that lie that you don't hate Nigeria.
Now read this: These are just a few of your posts.

Kobojunkie:
We continue, to date. to embrace a culture that glorifies mediocrity and praises holigans and thieves and you seriously think it is the FOREIGNERS to blame for this?? We export half qualify claiming it is quality and you think it is the foreigners that are at fault?? When do we bloody wake up from this insane dream that THEY ARE ALL AGAINST US and face reality??


What is it they are envious of?? Nigeria is not the best country in Africa? Even with Oil, Nigeria still have some of the highest numbers of poor people in the whole of Africa. People migrate from Nigeria to other African countries in huge numbers. What is it you have that makes you feel they are envious?? Why continue to spout nonsense in defense of our stupidity?? Why in the world is being arrogant and desperate suddenly something people should strive for?? What world is this??

I mean come on. Do you blame an employer for not wanting to deal with you when the last couple of people who fit your profile they have given a chance messed up bad?? Do you not think the burden is on you to PROVE that you are different?? Why the blindness?? Why the change in rules when it has to do with urging Nigerians and Nigeria as a whole to change it's ways?? Why the double-standard

The world is not stupid. We have a country here that has for DECADES continued to fuel the flames of corruption and the justice system seems to have turned it's back on it's responsibilities. We continue to harbour criminals and they walk freely amonst us and are even celebrated and you expect the victims to suddenly ignore all that and see the good in us above all that nonsense?? Do you really think that people who are scammed by Nigerians and watch as these criminals walk into the shores of that country and escape prosecution will ever see anything good in Nigerians?? Do you think that people watching from outside, seeing how for decades, we continue to allow criminals get into leadership roles and get away with thievery, only to come back later on to take some more, are going " OH Nigeria is a great country"? Do you think people hear that over 75 million of our population ( the largest in all of Africa) are extremely poor and they go " Oh! Nigerians are the best in the world?? Are you kidding me??


Why do we need to bring Africans to talk about anything?? We have yet to show that we are able  to handle the problems within our shores to the point where we can at least boast of something. We continue to destroy valuable resources and misuse time we have to build our stature among african countries and you suggest we get african countries to some table to talk about what?? Continue the same old HUGE TALK and NO SUBSTANCE ideology we have pushed for decades in that continent??

I got these from your various posts on this thread. Now tell me what any of these have to do with the question the poster asked. All these show that you think very little of Nigerian and you actually hate Nigeria. You even made up things and accused Nigeria of. Please give me a list of the inferior goods that Nigeria exported. To the best of my knowledge, Nigeria exports world class petroleum, One of the best electrical cables and etc. You claim not hate Nigeria, give me just one post where you had something good to say about Nigeria.

Look at you raging with anger and insults. Now tell me who is being emotional! Form and rage as you will, your insults pass by me as idle winds. You can never get me upset. It takes more than you. I comend seeklove and Ifygurl for remaining civilized and gentle in the face of all these insults from kobojunkie.

Even you name betrays you. What will fascinate a responsible person to use that name. Kobojunkie, in otherwords your are a junky(addict) for the lowest division of Nigerian money(kobo). You are an addict for money. And these are the people accusing Nigerians of dishonesty.
Happy cheers

Now lets hear him rage.

@ Kobojunkie
Chill down. There is no need for insults. Eventhough I don't agree with you, I will not insult you.

So happy cheers.
Thanks and remain blessed.

@texazzpete
No offense taken. Happy cheers.

texazzpete:
That's simplistic logic at work. Nigeria's rot starts from the people, not neccessarily with the government alone.
If in 99% of the threads concerning 419 on Nairaland most respondents offer tacit support for the crime, what has the Government to do with that?

@texazzpete
Please read my post very well before you reply. I was not criticising the government. I said "ask what you can do for the government and not what the government can do for you"
Don't you understand this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I said, "IF the government is bad" I did not say that the government is bad.

I never said that the problem is the government alone. I inferred that the problem is lack of patriotism of the people. After all, it is the people that make up the government. The government is not made up of machines or foreigners but the people of Nigerian.

Please re-read my post!!

One thing I have observed from living in America is that:
A rich and educated Nigerian, once he gets to America. He will soon learn to let go of his pride. He might start by doing any job. Even washing plates, he will gladly do it and he will work very hard and soon gets a better and more prestigious job. Even while doing a prestigious job in America, he will be very humble, he will wash his car if he has time rather than paying for it to be washed, He will cut his lawn, he will wash his cloths, he might even go to the kitchen and help his wife in cleaning the kitchen and washing plates. But the moment he arrives at Nigeria, he will become proud again. He might pay big money to lodge in a Hotel even if his fathers house is batter than his house in America. He will tell you that he is too big to live in his fathers house with his relatives who probably starved to send him to America. He will adopt a fake accent and condemn everything Nigerian. He will never wash, and clean, rather he will pay people to wash his cloths. He will rather starve to death than do a lowly job.

If in Nigeria we Nigerians will work as hard as we work in America, then Nigeria will soon become like America. But the problem is that we want people in Nigeria to think that we are in America are living in heaven. Therefore we criticise everything about Nigeria, we act like we are gods when we go back to Nigeria.

Americans are happy because they work hard for their country. No job is a lowly job in America. You can see a professor working security as a second Job rather than sitting down and blaming the government for not paying him enough. Most Americans stop providing for their kids once the kid become 18 years old. The child has to move out, find a job and carter for himself. Even if his job is to sweep the street, his girlfriend will be happy that her man has a job. But in Nigeria nobody will date a man with a lowly job. We all want to become lawyers, doctors, and big men and go to America. But if we all become big, who will clean the streets?

Please lets do our best for our country. God gave us a beautiful country, every problem that Nigeria has was caused by us(including you kobojunkie). Lets be proud of Nigeria and build it up.
We Nigerians abroad have a lot of responsibility. We should encourage Nigerians at home and be honest about abroad. The good things we see abroad, we should try to implement it in Nigeria. We should respect Nigerians at home and not treat them like leapers.
To Nigerians at home. You should be proud of yourselves and don't let anybody intimidate you. There is no heaven on earth. Believe me, Nigeria is a beautiful country.

@ seeklove and Ifygurl

I was touched just by reading your posts in this thread. Both of you are very articulate and right. If most Nigerians are as intelligent as Ifygurl and seeklove, then Nigeria would have been a better place.
It is very unfortunate, in all my travels and meeting people of different nationalities, the most unpatriotic people I have met are Nigerians. The Truth is that any educated person knows that their is no excuse or reason that justifies lack of patriotism.
I will give simple answers to all the issues that the haters have raised.
1.) If the government is bad, do your best to change it. ---Criticise the bad government and not Nigeria as a whole.
2.) If the government does not do enough for you, --"Do not ask what your government can do for you, ask what you can do for your government.
3.) If you hate Nigeria so much. -- Give up your passport and citizenship and forget about Nigeria.

@Kobojunkie
I am sorry but you sound like those foolish people who will spend all their time complaining about their marriage partners, but still will not end the marriage. Such is passivity. If it's that bad just leave and forget about it. Is any body forcing you to be a Nigerian?
My father taught me a great prayer and I think you can learn something from it. It goes:

"Lord give me the strength to change the things I can
The Patience to accept the things I cannot change
and the wisdom to know the difference. "

You either accept Nigeria the way it is, or you try to change it, or just leave it and give up your citizenship. Insulting the country and the people in it is not the way to go. You can urge the people to better themselves by offering them constructive criticism like seeklove and Ifygurl, not by attacking them and putting them beneath others.


At all Nigerians please read

SeanT21:
After Liberia, America comes.

If a Liberian 17 year old can put her country first before America. Why can't Nigerians to the same. What has Liberia offered SeanT21 that Nigeria has not offered you.

@SeanT21
Please keep it up! I comend your patriotism for your country but please don't accuse seeklove of being anti American just because he is patriotic to Nigeria. I don't see what qualifies him as anti-American.
Remember he said:

seeklove:
I am not saying that American is evil and I am not saying that all Nigerians are good.

The  poor man doesn't deserve to be called anti-America.

@lafile
The gospel reported Jesus as having used the expresion, "born again." If so then it is not a Christian(church or religious) concept. Jesus was not a Christian(He did not belong to any religion), therefore it is wrong to labell concepts introduced by Jesus as Christian concepts.

Concepts, like "rapture" which was introduced by the Christian churches, are Christian concepts; but concepts introduced by Jesus are Divine concepts given to mankind, and they don't belong to any church.

Everybody is welcome to read the words of Jesus and examine them in the light of his/her own understanding. Jesus words are not meant to be understood only in the light of the present Christan doctrine.

Jesus did not start any religion, He gave man His words, irrespective of their race, religion, and gender.

delvinmaya:
The court in her home city heard the abuse of her children was co-ordinated via text messages sent by a leader of the Grail Movement cult, who was known only as the Doctor”.

@all
I don't think that the people involved in this monstrous acts are actually members of the Grail Movement. From what I gathered about the issue in another website, the perpetrators of this crime belong to a breakaway faction of the Grail movement. It is unfair to bring the Grail movement into this issue, as the perpetrators are not current members. The peperators were dismissed from the movement 11 years ago.

The Grail message does not commend such evil things and It has nothing to do with this issue. The Grail message is bassed on love and justice, love and justice are the principles of the Grail message. Any body that lives the principles of the Grail cannot do such evil as enslaving and maltreating a child.


Please read this, from another website (http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=25263&sec=55&cont=5):
"What was just a case of child abuse seized the nation's attention, however, when Anna disappeared from a children's home, sparking a search for her in nearby woods and villages. Then came the bizarre revelation that "Anna" was not a 13-year-old girl, but a 34-year-old woman in disguise. Police believe "Anna" was actually Barbara Skrlova, a friend of the Mauerova sisters who, like them, belongs to a breakaway faction of an organisation called the Grail Movement.

The Grail Movement follows the teachings of Oskar Ernst Bernhardt, a German also known as Abd-ru-shin, who from 1923-38 wrote the Grail Message, which depicts man as a being whose spirit can return to its source in heaven by performing good deeds on Earth. It claims to have at least 10,000 followers worldwide, including several hundred in Britain. "We broke with the people involved in this 11 years ago, after they added to the Grail Message with their own imaginings and fantasies," said Artur Zaplukal, spokesman of the Grail Movement in the Czech Republic, where it has about 1,500 followers. "I sent them a letter telling them they were no longer part of the Grail Movement."

http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=25263&sec=55&cont=5

Quite an interesting article. It is encouraging to see that everyday science goes closer to believing in life after death, ie comfirming it as a scientific fact. There are so many documentaries presented on TV about this issue of life after death and near death experience, a lot of people are really fascinated about the issue. Also, in such documentaries, there are always scientists(medical doctors and nurses) who declare their conviction in life after death, this conviction is always as a result of their experiences in the death chamber.

Seeing TV programs like "Most haunted, Paranormal state, and Ghost hunters " where they claim to detect the presence of the departed souls with very fine scientific instruments; all these show that science is getting closer to acknowledging the existence of the beyond and the soul. I believe that in a not-so-far-away future, everybody on earth will be convinced of the existence of the beyond and the continuation of live after death, which will inturn bring a universal belief in the existence of God.
We are definitely heading towards the Millennium!

Backslider:
@justcool

You are wrong The bible says for God so loved the world that HE GAVE his only begotten Son. If God did not give there was no way we could have the remission of sin.

You must understand that without the Shedding of Blood there will be no single remission. You better be prepared for so many blood issues because The Church was born with a lot of Blood.

If God Sheds Blood who will Judge Him You? Which court will you take Him to?

When God sent the Flood in the Times of Noah and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah what was that.

Ok remember that God Killed thousands because David Just Simply Numbered the Children of Isreal.

@Backslider
You didn't quote that scripture fully. The full quotation is:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

The scripture says that God gave His son, that means that God sent His son. It did not say "that God killed His son"
The reason for God giving(sending) His son is that we may listen to Him and believe Him. Therefore the important thing is to believe which entails living accordingly, and not His murder. That scripture clearly says, "that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." To believe in Him is to believe His words and live accordingly! It did not say, "that whoever believes in His death shall not perish!


I am happy that m_nwankwo has given you further clarification.

OLAADEGBU:
God had to come down and slaughter an animal, shed its blood, showing Adam and Eve that the shedding of an innocent blood will only suffice in the interim, as it will only cover the sin and make atonement for their souls. The last Adam had to come, who was the Logo that was with the Father and who was the third Person in trinity, became human and the perfect sacrifice that will take away the sin of the world. Jn.1:1-3, 14, 29

Please stop preaching this gibberish which presents God as a murderer! God does not shed innocent blood in-order to forgive man. To shed an innocent blood is a sin and against the laws of God: "thou shall not kill." Are you saying that God sins and disobeys His laws just to save man.
The killing of Jesus was a murder committed by mankind. It is a great sin and salvation did not come from this murder. Salvation comes from living the words of Jesus, i.e. obeying the laws of God. Jesus saves by His words(the Truth). Whoever lives in His words will find salvation.
God does not shed innocent blood! God is not a murderer!

@amightyo
Thanks for joining this thread, and thanks for giving your opinion. Seeing that we share the same intuitive perception on this issue, is a spiritual experience to me. I have prayed for experiences that will give me more clarification on the issue, and I believe that reading your post is one of such experiences.
Keep it up, and best wishes.

m_nwankwo:
@Justcool

Thanks for your reply. My sensing is that we have shared our perceptions on the subject of walking on water. Our perceptions are different in this particular account. The differences are already clearly stated in my posts and yours. Our positions on this matter are lucidly stated in our previous posts and rejoinders and there is no point in repeating or extending our positions in my view. No two individuals are at the same level of spiritual development even when they draw from a common source, thus our different postions on this particular isssue is welcomed. Thanks for sharing and stay blessed!

@m-nwankwo
Thanks for the above. I completely agree with you in the above. However I wish to state that what I said on the issue of walking on water are only my perceptions, i.e. as much as I have been able to draw from the Truth. But I realize that I am not yet perfect and my knowledge is still far from being perfect. Therefore I do not say that you are wrong. But at the moment my intuitive perceptions do not agree that one can physically walk on water. Hence, the only right thing for me to do is to stick to and express what my intuitions allow me to accept. Accepting something without inwardly being convinced about it would lead me nowhere. Such would be blind faith.
Perharps in the future, with more experiences, I will mature enough to recognize that it is possible for somebody to physically walk on water. And, I am also sure that if such possibility does not exist (if it is impossible for one to walk on water), soon I will undergo experiences that would futher strengthen and comfirm my present view.
I am earnestly seeking more clarification on the issue. I have experienced the words "seek and you shall find" to be true. Therefore I am rest assured that I will find.
Therefore thanks for the exchange, I learnt a lot from it. I wish you strength. Stay blessed.

@m-nwankwo
Thanks so much for your reply which is very sound in logic and knowledge. First forgive me for breaking up your post into pieces and making some of your sentences bold. I do this in-order to reply to each point that you raised, without omitting any. However I disagree with so many things in your post especially the parts that I highlighted.

m_nwankwo:
Thanks for your reply. I see your perceptions with respect to the possibility of Jesus walking on water. However I do not agree with it as I earlier stated in a previous post. It is very possible for Jesus to walk on water. In my sensing it is within the laws of God. The Divine core of Jesus was thinly veiled with the variou cloaks, the physical body inclusive. Therefore even the physical body of Jesus was lighter and more mobile than what is obtainable with men. Sure the fall of man and the accompanying hereditary sin makes physical bodies of earthmen denser than what it should have been. However the fall of man didnot make the physical bodies of divine envoys to be dense. Special preparations are required to make the physical bodies of divine envoys pure and literally not subject to the effects of the hereditary sin. Indeed, the radiation connection between the various cloaks require the lightness of the various cloaks so as to permit their divine core and its associated divine power to radiate freely through all the cloaks including the physical body. In case of Jesus, he was veiled so thinly allowing his innermost divine core to shine freely and bring about miraculous happenings whose nature and speed is not possible for anything created. The astral body is not "fine gross matter" but "medium gross matter", and that is why it is a transistory cloak. The transitory nature makes it possible for it under circumstances to vibrate as if it is fine gross matter and yet in other circimstances it can also vibrate as if it is a physical body. The uncovering of the astral body does not mean astral projection. It means that the radiation connection between the astral and physical body which under normal circumstances makes the former to be telescoped "within" the physical cloak is unhinged allowing the astral body to cover the physical body. In that special circustances the astral body is the outermost covering even when the dwelling soul has a physical body. Under this circumstances it is very possible for a physical body to walk on water.

You are right in asserting that the Divine core of Jesus was thinly veiled with various cloaks. But I don't agree with this in respect to His physical body. The physical body owing to its density cannot be made thin like that. The subtler bodies of Jesus were so thin due to the fact that He speedily passed through the planes from which these bodies originated. These bodies were just as thin enough to allow them to function, however the physical body is different. The preparation of His physical body was made in such a way that His parents had good and healthy bodies and carried the right genes for a strong and healthy physical body. Nothing more. His physical body was only a physical body. For Him to descend into a plane that man has degenerated so much, He had to wear the same physical bodies that man has degenerated. Only that His physical body might be the best that the earth can produce at that time. Even this best is still subject to the deficiencies that man brought on the earth over time. The fall of man caused the density of the physical bodies and the overdevelopment of the frontal brain. Every body that is born on earth after the fall of man carries these defects(density and overdeveloped frontal brain) which only gives the individual a tendency to materialism. Thus a tendency to the sin and not the sin itself. Even Jesus was born with an overdeveloped frontal brain,He also had to live His life on earth with an overdeveloped frontal brain, the fact that He did not fall because of it shows the strength of His Divine core. It took a very long time, through over usage and mutation, to develop the frontal brain wrongly, and one cannot just change it overnight, even by living rightly, it will still take time. The laws follow a path that cannot be changed, neither can any of the steps in the recovery be annulled. Such will not be a real healing. Every step in the process of degenerating the physical world by man had to retraced so that man can recognise his wrong doing. It naturally cannot be otherwise, thus it has to take time. All Divine envoys had to wear this degraded physical body which made it harder for them to do their work. The fact that they don't succumb to the incleanations of this degraded physical body does not mean that theirs were different. Rather this shows us how much the Love of God is willing to undergo in-order to save man. This recognition should make man to remain thankfull to God whose love had to wear our soiled physical body in-order to save us.

Okay, astral is medium gross matter, depending on how you chose to classify gross master. The astral body can be made dense to resemble the physical as much as anything astral. Even fine gross matter can be made denser too. But the astral body is a transition between the physical and the ethereal, and not between physical and fine gross matter.
The astral body cannot be made to cover the physical. "Cover" is not the right expression because even the physical body does not cover the astral, rather they are held together by radiations. Or, they slide next to each other like lenses in a telescope. In situations when the astral body of living person is seen, it is the observer's astral or finer eyes that opened and with it he sees the astral body of the observed;  and not that the astral body of the observed covering his physical body.

m_nwankwo:
It is possible for the soul to experience through the astral body even when the physical body is awake. Sleep is not a requirement to experience through the astral body. It is quite possible to experience the astral and transmit the experiences to an awake brain. Those who are gifted can experience the astral or other planes of existence with their various non earthly organs and radiate it back to the brain even in full day counsciousness. Ofcourse these gifts are dependent on the spiritual maturity of the individual and there are still some gifted ones who may need to shutdown their day counsciouness in order to allow the senseing by their finer organs. However as their talents develop in the right way, they will be permitted to experience finer planes without going to sleep.

This is very correct and I never said to the contrary. I have already said it in my earlier post. I told a story of my father seeing his dead friend standing next to his corpse, and my grandmother seeing her departed sister walk through a wall into her room and had a conversation with her. In both cases they(my father and grandmother) were fully awake. It is not even a gift or a blessing as such, it only becomes a blessing when the seer knows what he/she has seen and the laws of creation guiding such things. Such seeing makes some people more confused about life and death; and thus rather than blessing it becomes a curse. But this seeing while fully awake does not happen to every body. In the case of sleep most people leave their physical bodies, due the changed radiation of the physical body brought about by the sleep. It is the radiation that binds the bodies, so in sleep when the radiation of the physical changes to the extent that it unbinds the soul, the later can leave the physical although still connected with the physical body by the silver cord. Almost everybody at least a few times in their life on earth experiences this. Although most times the brain distortes the pictures perceived from the experiences in the beyond and makes one think that he/she was only dreaming.

m_nwankwo:
I have explained what I meant by uncovering of the astral body as much as is possible. Therefore my usage of the terms has nothing to do with what occultists claim. Indeed it is actually impossible to bring the physical body to the vibrations of the astral body without terminating the connection between the physical body and the soul. It is only transistory species like the astral bodies that can be subjected to such pertubation. The physical body is a basic specie and not a transistory specie and thus its ability to witthstand flunctions in density is limited. Thus my explanation pertains to uncovering of the astral body over the physical body and not to energersisng the physical body to attain the frequency of vibration of an astral body.

Here, from my perceptions, physical things can be subjected to certain vibrations or subjected to certain radiations that can make them vibrate to an usually high level, thus making them almost medium or fine gross matter. Even with the process of "ionization" physical objects can be made fer lighter than they normally are. I believe that in the future science can actually, by ionization, make large mountains as light as a feather. Already some people speculate that the ancients had this knowledge, hence the ancient lamas could levitate. Therefore it is not impossible to bring the physical to a higher vibration. One can also increase the vibration of his physical body, but all these thing are mare spiritual acrobatics which are harmful to the physical body. One can subject a physical object to certain vibration and make the object lighter and even invisible. I will give a very coarse analogy: Imagine a fan, when it if in full speed the blades dispear and you can see through them. The fan, also, when in full speed becomes lighter! This is simple science which can be verified. So this is the only way one can achieve lightness with physical objects, ie by raising their vibrations. I thought this is what you mean by uncovering the astral.  Just as with thoughts, fear, emotion, joy,(all of which are vibrations) one can elevate his/her physical body momentarily, making it insensitive to pains. The fear of a dentist can suppress toothache. One can also with training subject his physical body to the vibrations of the astral body, as occultists claim. But this is wrong because physical objects are meant to remain at a certain vibration in-order to be healthy.
Now the astral body is also a basic specie, the fact that it be subjected to such a wider range of perturbation does not make it a non- basic specie. Even the astral body's ability to withstand flunctions in density is also limited, but to a different range than the physical. So in reality, there is nothing like transitory specie. All species are basic and subject to different ranges of vibration. The highest vibration of the lower(denser) species always resembles the higher specie or the lowest vibration of the higher specie. This way nature leaves no gaps.

Another problem with this "uncovering of the astral" is that gravity always effect the outermost and the haveyest. Therefore even if the astral covers the physical, the weight of the physical will still be subjected to gravity and thus makes it impossible to walk on water.

m_nwankwo:
The fall of man is not a continum. Even on earth today, their are human beings who have abrogated the effects of the fall of man by living according to the WILL of God. In addition, the incarnation of the envoys of God as happened with Jesus changes the course of the earth, bringing it into regions where it is suceptible to radiations from on high. Thus instead of rigidity, you have motion, and instead of death, you have purification of the world of matter. Therefore their are human beings on earth today whose silver cord can be severed from few hours to three days after death. Sure they are few but they are there. Like everthing else, there are servants of God whose activity is to help the departing soul to severe the physical body. Divine envoys can sever the silver chord at any time of their chosing. I have atleast witnessed a departed soul got severed from his physical body by the second day of death (approximately 42hours). Therefore while you assertion on how long the silver chord stays is correct with respect to a majority of human beings, their are few exceptions. Total obedience to the WORD OF GOD even in this earthlife alone can completely abrogate the effects of the fall of man.

You are right in saying that now on earth we have places that are light and people no longer exhibiting the effects of the fall of man. The earth was speedily heading towards utter rigidity, hence Jesus came and saved the earth. Since His coming things took a different turn allowing the earth to exist up till the present time. With this last help from God, in the midst of which we are now, things are heading speedily towards to light. With time, everything that is wrong will be eliminated but this does not happen overnight. People who are living in the WILL OF GOD no longer produce works that hampered by the fall of man; ie overdevelopment of the frontal brain. The defect brought about by man only give man the incleanation towards materialism. At this point this overdevelopment of the frontal brain still exists, but with the new knowledge that came from the Holy Grail, man can now be free him/herself from its effects. By trying not to be a slave of the intellect, such a man now no longer overuse the frontal brain which caused it to overgrow in the first place. With this using it rightly, overtime(centuries), it will regain its right propotion. All these takes time(centuries). At the moment the frontal brain is still too overdeveloped and thus very large, one only needs to look at the latest diagram of the brain to see this. It will take time on earth although spiritually it has already been acomplished, thus spiritualy "IT IS FINISHED."

m_nwankwo:
What I post including this post is my experiencing, my perception of creation and its working. It is not the TRUTH but my perception of the TRUTH. I advise all readers who want to know the TRUTH to read the Grail Message. Once again, thanks for sharing and stay blessed!

This is also applicable to me. What I state in this post is my perception of the Truth. I advise every reader who want to know the TRUTH to read the Grail Message.

@ fyneguy
Thanks for your post.

fyneguy:
For instance, you arbitrarily believe Jesus could not have been born without the fertilization of Mary's egg. This you learned from the Grail message. Well, if Grail concept can't explain the birth of Jesus Christ, it doesn't make the biblical account a fallacy, it only means Grail's knowledge is partial, if not totally fallacious.

Okay, let us leave the Grail message and the bible out of the issue, and lets investigate without bias. Then after the investigation we can now know which of the two books(the Grail Message and the bible) contains the Truth on the issue of at hand.
You and I live in this creation which is the work of God. And all births in creation that we have witnessed goes through these 3 stages:
1)Conception or fertilization by sperm from the male.
2)pregnancy or incubation
3)Birth
All the births that I have observed have followed this process. All the births that scientists have observed followed this process. All animals births also go through this process. Therefore this is the way God made it from the beginning--A woman must lie with a man in-order to get pregnant.
And we are also told that God is perfect and unchangeable. If this is true, then all the laws of God are perfect, even this process of birth. And, if God is unchangeable then He cannot change His laws which are perfect. His laws must be fulfilled--"His word will not return to Him without being fulfilled.

Now we return to the two books:
The bible tells us that Mary got pregnant without sex, ie without sperm fertilization. This annuls the first stage of the process of birth as ordained by God. If this annulment was done by God, then God is not unchangeable, and His laws are not perfect because He changed them for His son. Also, He is partial because He subjects humans through laws that He wouldn't subject His son.
Also comparing this biblical story with the creation around me  and which I am part of, it does not correspond. Because I have never seen such a thing happen. Also the process of birth fall withing the realm that science can investigate. And science has investigated it and found that it is impossible for a woman to get pregnant without fertilization. Therefore even science finds this biblical story impossible.
Also, some Christians claim that it was an angel that impregnated Mary, others claim that it was the Holy Spirit. But both angels and the Holy Spirit are Spirits not flesh. Therefore, this contradicts the bible which says that:
"What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit."(John 3:6) Therefore according to the bible, spirit cannot beget flesh.
You see we looked at the story by comparing it with life around us, it failed. We analysed it scientifically, it failed. We analysed from the perspective that God is perfect and unchangeable, it failed. This story even contradicts other parts of the bible. I can provide biblical verses that contradict this story.
This story has failed all analysis and therefore this story can not be the Truth.

Now we analyse the Grail Messsage's version of the birth of Jesus.
Jesus had a biological father. This story lives up to science, It lives up to the life around us--we see birth everyday and they all are preceded by sperm fertilization and pregnancy. If analysed from the perspective that God is perfect and unchangeable, this story lives up to it. This story comfirms that God(the creator of the natural process of birth) is perfect, just and unchangeable; and so are His laws.
This story lives up to all analysis, and there is nothing found wanting in it. Therefore it is the Truth.


Those that claim that Jesus was born without natural biological conception show that they doubt the perfection of God and his laws(the law of natural process of birth). Thereby they call God imperfect, changeable, unjust, and partial. I chose to believe that God is perfect, unchangeable and impartial. Our beliefs reveal the way we see God. Every individual is left to decided what he/she accepts as Truth, but at the end we will face consequences of our decision.

Thanks and remain blessed

@fyneguy

In King James translation, love is not even mentioned. Here is the translation:


1Cr 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1Cr 13:2  And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1Cr 13:3  And though I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor], and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

1Cr 13:4  Charity suffereth long, [and] is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

1Cr 13:5  Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

1Cr 13:6  Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

1Cr 13:7  Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

1Cr 13:8  Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1Cr 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1Cr 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1Cr 13:11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1Cr 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1Cr 13:13  And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity.
(King James Version)

@fyneguy

Sure the writer talks about the supreme power of love. But he also talks about the imperfection of their knowledge and prophesy. He urges the reader: since our knowledge is imperfect, therefore put love which is perfect above all things. If their knowledge was perfect, then it would be as important as love, then he will not urge the reader to do away with it.
He said:"At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known"
Now are you telling me that at the time the writer was writing he had no love. If by the perfect which is to come he meant love, then for him to say "at present we see indistinctly" that means he had no love. But this is not the case because love alone will not teach you everything, only that which is perfect(the pure Truth). The writers refars to a time in the future when they shall see face to face, ie when they shall hear from the TRUTH itself. He compared their knowledge at that time, as seeing indistinctly and he also compared their state as a child. He talks about the future when that which is perfect shall come, then they will know fully.
Below is the whole 13th chapter of Corinthians. Please reread it carefully and you will see that I didn't use it out of context.

                                                            1 Corinthians
                                                              Chapter 13

1 If I speak in human and angelic tongues 2 but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.

And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.

If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.

3 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,

it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,

it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.

It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

4 Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.

For we know partially and we prophesy partially,

but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.

At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
5 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
(New American Bible)

@seeklove
Thanks

@m-nwankwo
With all due respect.
I understand that under certain circumstances, the physical body could be brought to vibrate almost at the same frequency with the astral, and thus become very light.(If this is what you mean by uncovering the astral body)
But such things are no longer possible with the physical bodies of today, i.e. after the fall of man. The physical world has so much deviated from the right path and thus is very far away from the light, and consequently has become very heavy and rigid. In the childhood years of mankind on earth, when the earth was still revolving at the right path, physical things were lighter and more easily permeated by light. Also, they were more easily brought to a higher vibration.  At that time, perhaps it was possible for one to levitate with the physical body on earth as it is done in the beyond. Perhaps even walk on water. Then humans looked more proportional, lived longer, and lived happier than we do today.
But after the fall of man the physical world lost almost all it's connection to the light and thus became very heavy dense and rigid. To the extent that it became almost imposible to bring it to a higher vibration. It sank so low, allowing denser beings to incarnate. Thus man became carnal, heavy, and the physical body lost all its proportionality, i.e. the frontal brain became overdeveloped. Thus if God had not interfered the physical world would have gotten so rigid and condensed to utter motionlessness which would have being it's destruction.
Thus at the time of Jesus, the physical body has become so heavy that it cannot be brought to such a vibration that will make it light enough to walk on water.
Another evidence of this is found when one observes the process of death. Normally, a few hours after death, the silver cord should break so that the soul continues its journey into the ethereal world. This is how it was at the beginning, before the fall of man, when everything was permeated with light. But today, due to the density of the physical bodies and the astral bodies, it takes longer for the silver cord to break. Because the silver cord itself (infact the whole subsequent creation) has become so dense that it takes more time and energy for the silver cord to break. Even in the case of Divine envoys and even primordial spiritual beings that incarnated on earth after the fall of man, even such lighter souls need a special help from the light to cut the silver cord. Thus one earth life of a Divine envoy is not sufficient to bring the physical world back to where it is supposed to be overnight. It will take time to achieve this just as it took time to deviate the physical world from the right path. Even if Jesus could achieve this with His physical body due to the strength of His Divine core; Peter, being a mare human spirit couldn’t have done it too.

Science knows that motion has a canceling affect on weight, i.e. - an object in motion tends to weigh less. This is why very fast trains can levitate. But this is a different thing. The physical body cannot be subjected to such motion without being inside a vehicle. Ships float on water due to their density. This has nothing to do with the physical body walking on water.

According to the bible, Jesus went inside a boat when there was no room on land due to the multitude. On many occasions the bible reported Him taking a boat to cross a body of water. This walking on water, He did not do it in front of the multitude, only in the presence of the 12 apostles, and this walking on water, He was reported to have done only once. These are the reasons why I arrive at my earlier conclusion.

Concerning the astral body, I sumerize my points:
1) The outermost body is always the body subject to gravity. So there is no way one can have the physical body as the outermost and at the same time have only the astral subject to gravity.

2) The only way to uncover the astral body is by leaving the physical body(astral projection). In such cases the physical body is left asleep while the soul leaves with the astal body.

3) It is posible to have physical things vibrate at a higher level(maybe this what you mean be "uncovering the astral", occultists claim to do this, thus the physical is raised to vibrate at astral frequency. Apart from the fact that this is "spiritual acrobating" which a knowing one like Jesus will never do because it weakens the physical body, it is hadly posible after the fall of man.

4) Granted the astral body is a transitional body between the physical and the etherial , the astral body itself is fine gross matter. It can be made to condescend to almost becoming of the same frequency with the physical. This can easily be done owing to the densification of matter brought about by the fall of man. 

The above is my opinion, and my experiencing of creation and the Grail Message. I advice every reader of this post to read the Grail Message him/herself and arrive at his or her own personal conclusion. I remain a human spirit and as a human spirit, I can’t know all. If you wish to hear from the horse's mouth(from the TRUTH Itself), read the Grail Message.

@lystola

It's nice to have you back!
From my understanding of your post, you asked why I think the Grail Message is authentic. Here are my answers:

In the explanations given in the Grail Message, the author did not ask the readers to accept anything blindly. The book explains creation, which is a work of God. Since we all are in this creation and we all are parts of this creation, any explanation given to us, we must compare it with what we see around us. Example: If an architect gives you the plan of your house which you know has six rooms, however in the plan that the architect gives you the house has only four rooms. You can tell that the architect is lying or not competent. But if the plan given to you by the architect corresponds very well with the house you live in, then you can tell the architect knows what he is doing.
Now apply the same to the various spiritual books on earth today. In the explanations that they give, at some point, the explanations no longer correspond to the creation we know. At this point they tell you to accept it blindly or that it is a mystery. Only the Grail Message explains everything and asks the reader to look around him and compare the explanation with his/her own experiences. Only the Grail message does not ask for blind faith, because the Grail Message gives a very logical explanation of every happening, which if you look into your own life, you will comfirm it.

You mentioned the bible, I personally respect the bible. Because the bible also comfirms the fact that it(the bible) does not know all. In 1 Corinthians we read:

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away." (1 Corinthians 13: 9-10)

Here the writer proclaims that his explanations( his knowledge) is only in part but something perfect is coming. Thus the writer of Corinthians tells the reader to do away with this part knowledge when that which is perfect has come.
Also the bible has gone through so many interpretations and some things were lost in this interpretations. And also, most of the stories (the gospel) were not written to be scriptures. Most of the books in the new testament were personal letters to one particular person, groups of people, or churches. The writer was only writing a letter to the churches or to a person, it was only very much latter that these personal letters were collected and added to the scriptures as the new testament. Also the gospels were written many years after the departure of Jesus, and according to some scholars, they were not written by the apostles personally. All these things show you that the Truth in the bible has been interfered with.

The same is applicable with other religious books. In some point they all demand blind faith from the reader because the explanations in them does not accord with reality.   

I have read the Grail message and questioned it, compared it with the reality around me and found it to be true. I have experienced it to be "that which is perfect" which the writer of Corinthians mentioned.

You are also welcome to read It and put It under scrutiny.

Thanks and remain blessed.

@fyneguy
Thanks for your questions. Please take time to read this long post. I’m sorry for it’s length but I wish to answer your questions in detail, that’s why I posting this long post.

fyneguy:
I noticed something in your line of thought, especially your responses to whatever seems not to conform to your "divine Energy" theory of Miracles, such that it only speeds up the so called natural process. hence, no natural law is expected to be broken.

You are right that in my explanations there is no possibility of the breaking the laws of nature. I stand proudly by this statement and I challenge anybody to testify of witnessing the laws of nature being broken. Nobody can give me just one instance where he/she personally witnessed the laws of nature being broken. Where it appears to be, two things are always the reason: (1) The person witnessing the alleged annulment of the laws of nature does not understand the laws, thus when he/she sees the law applied in usual ways, he/she is fooled to think that the laws are broken. Example: A person who does not understand gravity in its entirety might think that airplanes annul the laws of gravity.
(2) The person who appears to overide or annul the laws is only tricking the observers. Example: magicians and the ancient African native doctors(dibia in Igbo). Such people are only performing tricks which lead naive and superstitious people into believing that such persons have power or juju that can break the laws of nature.

fyneguy:
First, where did you learn the concept of "Divine Energy" from, as it relates to miracle? How were you so convinced that the concept was right?

I draw my spiritual knowledge from a book called, "In the light of Truth: The Grail Message." However my answers are drawn from my experiencing of the book. Thus my answers are not exactly lifted from the book word to word. Any imperfections found in my answers should be attributed to me and not to the book. I have found the book to live up to It's claim of answering every question concerning the human existence and spirituality. I have found the book to be foolproof. I advise you to pick a copy and read for yourself.

fyneguy:
Do you believe Jesus, and Peter, walked on water? was it a miracle? was no natural law broken in the process?

Jesus and Peter could not have walked on physical water with their physical bodies. The physical body, owing to its weight can only sink in water. However this is not so with other non-physical bodies. These non-physical bodies, due to the fact that they are made of lighter and non-physical substances are far lighter than the physical. We humans on earth, our innermost core is spirit and this spirit is covered by bodies which enable it to function actively in various planes of creation. The spirit on earth wears many non-physical bodies(astral, etherial, etc) and the heavy physical body as its outermost covering. When the physical body dies the soul(the spirit without the physical body) leaves the physical body but this soul is still conected to the astral body. In order for the spirit to ascend higher than the astral plane, it has to discard its astral body on the astral plane as it discarded its physical body on earth. So it enters the ethereal plane with its ethereal body as the outmost covering, and it must discard the ethereal body in the ethereal plane before it can rise into a higher plane. This goes on from plane to plane.  And finally the spirit may be allowed to enter paradise (which is a spiritual place) with its spiritual body. The fact that there are many planes of creation is also mentioned in the bible. If you read Corinthians, the writer talks about a man caught up in the third heaven ( 2 Corinthians 2) The fact that there we also have different bodies is also mentioned in (1 Cor. 15: 40-41).
Sometimes even while we alive on earth our soul(our spirit covered with subtler bodies) leaves our physical bodies momentarily, i.e. during sleep. Some dreams are not just a figment of the brain. Some dreams are actually experiences that we are having in the beyond with our non-physical bodies while our physical body sleeps. In dreams we can do some things that are impossible on earth depending on the plane that we are experiencing in the dream. Example: In some dreams we can fly, walk on air and water. (I have flown in my dreams). This is because our non-physical bodies are much lighter than the physical body, thus in some planes we have bodies so light that we can levitate, walk on air, walk on water etc.

Now coming to walking on water.
Perhaps it was a non-earthly happening, i.e. a dream.  The apostles could have experienced walking on water with Jesus in a higher plane though what we call deam. But due to many mouth to mouth pass downs the story lost some of the elements in it. Remenber, the stories were written many years after Jesus, and some scholars think that these stories where not written by the disciples who saw Jesus personaly. The stories were written bassed on what the disciples said many years after their death. Perhaps the apostle’s inner (ethereal, astral, etc) eyes were opened momentarily and they saw what was happening in the beyond --They saw Jesus with His non-physical body.
Such things (people seeing the beyond while completely awake) still happen today. My father once went to a funeral and saw the dead person standing by his body. My father was so socked from this experience.  My grandmother saw her dead sister walk through a wall into her room and they had a conversation. In these cases the explanation is that, their(my father and my grand mother) non-physical eyes opened and they saw their departed relatives who were still around them but in a non-physical body.
Perhaps a similar thing happened with the apostles.

fyneguy:
When Moses' rod turned to snake, what concept explains that?

This is complete fallacy. God did not need to play a magician for Pharo or the Egyptians. What's the point? Was the ALMIGHTY God competing with magiciains? Only magicians perform such tricks. It is impossible for a rod to turn into a snake. The ten plagues story is very true. And scientists have analyzed the ten plagues and comfired its possibility, each of the ten plagues had a scientific explanation. But this does not mean that It wasn’t God that ordered the plagues.
The only possibility of rod turning into a snake is in a vision. Such visions could be shown to somebody in order to teach him a spiritual lesson. A man once saw in a vision that his wife turned into a snake. Later he found out that his wife was planning to kill him.
Such a vision was shown to Moses -- when he dropped his staff and it became a snake and he was asked to pick it up again. This is a vision, it did not happen physically. Now learn the lesson of the vision shown to Moses. The staff represents the laws of God. As long as he holds the staff, it will aid and support his movement. But if he drops it or lets go of it, it will turn into a deadly snake. Explanation: As soon as you stand in the laws of God or hold on to God, His laws will guard, aid and support your life. But as soon as you let go of God(become a sinner), His laws will pay you back the wages of your sin --spiritual death.
Another vision shown Moses was -- He put his hand into his bosom; and when he took it out, his hand was
encrusted with snowy scales! I leave you to deduce the spiritual lesson.

fyneguy:
well Joseph's sperm didn't fertilize Mary's egg, yet she conceived Jesus. Natural law? May be it was Joseph's 'radiation' that produced spiritual sperm?

Jesus had a biological father. It is impossible to become pregnant without a biological sperm. Thus Mary's egg was fertilized the normal way. The only way an egg gets fertilized without sexual intercourse is through invitro fertilization. However this was not yet invented during the time of Mary and Jesus. Therefore Mary had a normal and natural fertilization. I don’t know whether it was Joseph or somebody else who impregnated Mary. But one thing is for sure: she got impregnated through the normal process, she was impregnated by a man.
However Jesus conception was immaculate. An immaculate conception is a conception without sin and not a conception without sex. It is impossible to have a conception without sex, except in invitro fert. Sex itself is not a sin; sex only becomes a sin when there is no true love between the parties involved, and when it is accompanied by lust. Thus a couple with pure love for each other is married before God! With such a couple, sex is not wrong. Thus the sexual intercourse that yielded the physical body of Jesus was done without sin-- it was done without lust and by two descent people with pure love for each other. This purity that both parties had was what made the conception immaculate. And, only such purity can receive the incarnation of Jesus Who is Love. Love travels only in the ray of purity.

fyneguy:
Now, Jesus raised Lazarus. Was it within the natural law, for a dead Lazarus to be so raised?

It is very possible to raise somebody from the dead, provided that (1) The organs of the body have not been interfered with, i.e. removed, (2) the soul is still connected to the body, and (3) the body has not rottened or completely decayed.
If you have followed my earlier explanations, I maintain that the physical body is only a cloak, a covering, or an instrument needed on the earth. The real man is the soul that works through the physical body or that is inside the physical body. The physical body and the soul are connected by the radiation of both the physical body and the soul, and also by the silver cord. It happens that due to disease or some conditions, the physical biological processes in the physical body ceases, and consequently the physical body loses its radiation. At this point the soul separates from the body since the body’s radiation that binds the soul to the body is no longer there. Thus the soul can no longer return to the body. This is what we call death. At this point the person is brain dead or clinically dead because most the biological processes in the body have stopped.
But even at this point the silver cord which extends from the soul is still connected to the astral body, which is always connected to the physical body. Only when this silver cord is completely severed or disconnected is the person truly dead. Science and doctors can neither see this silver cord nor the soul and the astral body because they(the silver cord, the astral body, and the soul) are non-physical. But even the bible confirms the existence of the silver cord, in Ecclesiastes we read:
“Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well. Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.” (NKJV) Eccl. 12:6-7 
During sleep, due to the slowed down biological processes, the radiation of the body changes to the extent that the soul can momentarily leave the physical body and experience the higher plans. But during this period of the soul momentarily leaving the physical body, the soul is still connected to the physical body via the silver cord and the astral body.
But in the case of death, the physical body has completely stopped functioning, and consequently lost it’s radiation; also the soul has severed or disconnected from the astral body and the silver cord has been broken, severed or detached.
This detachment of the silver cord takes time; it can take days, weeks, or even months. Thus at the initial stages of death, when one somebody had just died, the soul is still connected to the physical body via the silver cord and the astral body. This is why the according to the bible Jesus said, “This child is not dead. She is only sleeping.”(Mark 5:38-39) i.e., the physical body is dead but the soul is still attached. At this period it is possible to bring the soul back to the physical body, but the physical body has to healed and made functional first before the soul can return.
Thus Jesus with His divine energy healed the body and allowed energy to flow through it; this energy resuscitated the biological processes of the body which consequently produced the required radiation that the soul needs in-order to return to the body. And at the call of Jesus (Damsel arise, Lazarus come forth) the soul or the spirit reenters the body.
Human beings gifted with high spiritual energy, and who have unswerving faith in the power of God can also bring dead people back to live, provided that the silver cord is still connected and the physical body and the astral body, and the bodies are still intact. The longer the person has been dead the more difficult it is to achieve this because as time progresses the silver cord weakens or loosens, until it completely severs. Thus in the case of Lazarus, although he has been dead for days, the silver cord has not been completely severed. It may have been impossible for a mare human being to being Lazarus back to life after days of being dead. But divine energy is more powerful than spiritual energy, hence Jesus could do it.

fyneguy:
Since, miracle seems to be an explainable phenomenon to you, when you are done with these, I will send you more miracle stories to 'help' us explain.

I'm always willing to share my views. Please bring more miracle stories, I will happily offer my views.

Thanks and remain blessed.

kola oloye:
@justcool,
What would you ever believe?What are you saying about the issue of Gideon asking the sun to move backwards by 10 degrees?
Please give me two reasons each on: why February is the least of all the months ALSO why all the months are not having equal days.
Waiting in anticipation. Thank you

@Kola oloye
I'm sorry for relying so late. I didn't your post above till today.
Now coming to your question.
1.) February has the least number of days because that's how the Romans designed their calendar. The calendar we use today was invented by the Romans. Other cultures invented different calendar's and some of them have more or less equal days in all the months. I don't know where you are going with this question, but I wish to let you know that the inequality in the number of days in the month is only a  problem created by man. Calendars are made by man in his quest to measure time so as to plan his activities. The perfection and imperfections found in different peoples calendars is due to the people's  culture, climate, and mathematical ability.
But time itself is perfect, eternal and standing still, because time is the work of God. Time actually does not move or pass as people have erroneously thought. Time stands still. It is we humans that pass through time and we do our activities within time. We measure the duration of our activity and ascribe it to time. But Time actually stands on it's own. Calendars, counting days and years makes people have the wrong idea of time; it makes one think that time passes. But time does not pass, it is we and our activities that passed through time. I hope this is clear enough, I can elaborate more it you want me to.

2)The earth revolves around the sun in 365 days and 6 hours. Now the roman calendar has 12 months. If you divide 365 and 6 hours by 12 you will have 30.4 days and 6 hours. This creates a mathematical problem because you cannot have 0.4 days and 6 hours as a day. This extra 6 hours add up to 24 hours(which is equal to 1 day) in 4 years. So every 4 years(leap year) we add 1 extra day to February. You can see that all these inaccuracies is as a result of man. The calendar remains the work of man. Man invents the calendar in his quest measure duration. ie the duration of time it takes the earth to circle the sun, we call it a year. Here we are using the movement of the earth(climate) as a reference of time. But time itself does not change and is not limited to the movement of the sun. Time existed before the sun and the earth.

I summarize my points:
1) Time is perfect. Time is eternal. Time does not move or pass. Time is the work of God.
2) Calendars are imperfect. Calendars are mans attempt to measure duration. Calendars are the work of man. The unequal number of days in February and other months are due to the imperfection of the Roman calendar. The imperfection resulted from man trying to divide the duration of the earth's motion around the sun into 12 months.

I don't know where you are going whit those questions but I hope I have answered them.
Thanks and remain blessed.

@lystola
I'm happy that m_nwankwo has answered your question. To add to what m-nwankwo already said, I have this to say:
What the apostles witnessed was not an earthly happening. Out of the love of God, their spiritual eyes (or non earthly eyes) were opened so that they could see what was happening spiritually. They witnessed Jesus ascend into the Divine or a higher realm with their spiritual eyes.

Now comming to the law of gravity. The law of gravity does not say that everything must fall to the earth. Simply, the law states that everything falls or ascends to a level corresponding to it's weight. Let us for example consider a Helium-filled balloon. Helium being very light and it's lightness corresponds to a very high place in the atmosphere far above the earth. But when Helium is captured in a balloon and tied to a heavy rod, depending on the size of the helium-filled balloon, it's buoyancy may not lift up the rod. So if thrown from the top of a building it falls towards the earth due to the heaviness of the rod. This is obeying the law of gravity. But as soon as the rope connecting the balloon to the heavy rod is severed, the helium-filled balloon automatically floats high above the earth, upwards towards the region corresponding to it's weight. This is also obeying gravity, and not contrary to it.
Science describes the equation for physical gravity: objects attract each other with a force directly proportional to their masses and inversely proportional to their distances. Therefore an object of very low density(Low mass)--the helium balloon--will have a very weak attraction towards to the earth. The Helium-filled balloon will rise above the earth as opposed to the piece of iron, which will sink towards the earth. Because the product of the mass of the helium-filled balloon and the mass of the earth is not as much as the product of the masses of the earth and the piece of rod.  Rod or iron being a very dense object will have a grater force of attraction to the earth due to combined mass of the earth and the piece of iron, which is enormous.

Now coming to the ascension of Jesus. Man on earth is like a helium-filled balloon. Man on earth is made up of two parts: the physical body and the spirit(very broadly speaking). The helium-filled balloon represents the spirit and the piece of rod tied to the balloon represents the physical body. The spirit is not earthly, it is made up of lighter substance, but the physical body is earthly and made up of earthly or physical substances. Due to the weight of the physical body, it is held on earth or the physical world.  But it is also tied to the spirit and it is this tie or this connection that keeps the spirit on earth. But once this tie is severed, through the death of the physical body, the spirit is freed and can now float to a region corresponding to it's weight. Just like a Helium-filled balloon floats when freed. This process does not go against gravity.

Now returning to the ascension of Jesus. Jesus having discarded His physical body and other bodies, could now float to the rigion corresponding to His weight. Jesus being of Divine origin could only return or float back to the Divine which is the lightest and highest region. A region even higher the the spiritual realm. Out of His great love for His apostles who were mourning Him on earth,  the apostle's spiritual eyes were opened so that they could witness the acsenion of their LORD in to a higher plane. It was not His physical body that the apostles saw ascending, it was a non-earthly body. This does not go against gravity which is a law that runs throughtout creation and can never be broken.

@all
I am finally done with my exams. I am now ready to reply to posts. My initial challenge still remains: I challenge the idea of "justification by faith alone" as being wrong and not completely scriptural. I challenge readers of the bible to prove me wrong.

@olabowale and Olaadegbu
Please return to the issue of this post. This is not a Christian vs is-lam post.

@syrup
How and where are you?

@ricadelide
Thanks for your post. I was planning to stay away from the net in-order to study, but since it was you who asked I decided to give a quick reply because I don't want you to feel that I am ignoring you. You raised very interesting and nice points and I will address them quickly. Wait for a more detailed reply after my exam.

ricadelide:
Interesting post. I think it would be fair to allege that, as has been severally mentioned, the reason you're not willing to accept the consensus of mainstream (evangelical) Christianity as regards biblical doctrines (especially justification by faith alone) is because you have certain preconceptions which you read into the text. Naturally, those would have an effect on the interpretation you get from it. Thus, if you request to treat the bible squarely, without any references to the grail message, then you should be willing to make interpretations from the bible on its own merit regardless of what your religious book teaches.

You call my interpretations "preconceptions which I read in the text." They are not preconceptions, they are my interpretation. Yours(evangelical) interpretation is the one that added preconceptions to the text. I gave Syrup some quotes from the gospel and from the posts you can see that Jesus never said that his physical blood or crucification brings redemption. When Jesus spoke of His blood He was speaking of His words(The Truth) which God gave to mankind for the forgiveness of their sins. To allege the He meant His physical blood is absurd. If you allege that then how do you explain when, acording to the gospel, He told His followers to eat and drink His blood. Was He telling them to actually eat His physical body(cannibalism) or was He telling them to drink His physical blood(vampirerisim)? Please answer.

ricadelide:
So, to reiterate, if you wish to focus on the bible, no qualms. Just make sure you're not interpreting the bible based on your preconceptions.

In this thread, I have quoted the bible in almost all my posts(something I don't usually do in other threads) to show that my argument is based on the bible. Just because my interpretations is not the mainstream(evangelical) interpretation does not mean that it is only a preconception. The mainstream(evangelical) idea that redemption is by faith alone started with Martin Luther. Earlier Christians did not believe in that because that is not what Christ taught. The oldest surviving Christian sect(catholic) still does not believe in it, although they added their own prerequisite(confession) for salvation due to their misunderstanding of the scriptures. So my interpretation is not just a preconception, it is based on the Bible. If you can give me just one quote where Jesus said that all you need to do to be saved is to simply believe that His physical blood has washed away your sins, and therefore you do not have to be righteous, then you will win this argument. I have given quotes where He urged people to be righteous and doers of His words not just hearers. In so many instances the scriptures made it clear the faith alone is not enough, faith has to be accompanied with work(good works) which is what brings salvation. Faith without work is dead.

ricadelide:
I do not agree that the Grail Message is the truth. I believe a valid discussion can be had about that. Since you want to limit this thread to a discussion on the bible, I wont bring it up here. I was involved in a discussion about the inspiration and validity of the Grail Message with m_nwankwo a while back. I did not continue that discussion when it appeared that we weren't making any headway, perhaps I'd revisit that thread.
Beyond that, I do not believe that one cannot have a discussion about the Grail Message unless one has read it. Certainly it would help but I don't think its a prerequisite. I would really love to read the book but I've tried to obtain it from libraries and have been unsuccessful.

The only reason why I tell you to read the book personally is that the Book was written for "mankind" irrespective race, religion or gender. It speaks to the heart and anybody, with an alert spirit, can understand It. If we discuss It only based on my perception of It, this unfair to both you and the book. Because if my perception is wrong then you will take it as if the fault is from the Grail Message and therefore you will perpetually consider It faulty and never read It. Another thing is that due to our(Nigerian) attitude, we labell everything that is not mainstream as secret society. I remender the first time I picked up the book, a friend told me that It is a secret society, Antichrist, and etc. I didn't expect what I saw in the book when I read. believe me I felt sorry for book. One thing is certain, if you are honest, after reading the book you will never call it a secret society or Antichrist. The book actually condemns all forms mysticism and It was not written for any society, neither did It bring any religion. It does not force anybody to accept, It actually encourages the reader to "weigh and examine everything" including the contents of the book. It encourages the reader the examine the matter objectively. I once gave It to born again Christain friend who used to call It secret society. After reading, he said and I quote: " for sure that book does not deserve the bad reputation people give It. I was surprised It actually glorifies Jesus."
The book does not even urge people to leave their religion or join another religions. It simply deals with life, spiritual life, Jesus, God, etc. It covers all the spectrum of life, Its not something you can merely discuss without being conversant with It. The lectures are arranged in sequence and the reader is encouraged to read it in sequence.
How can I engage in fruitfull discussion with you about the book when you are not even conversant with the book. You will only argue based on what you heard from people who may be biased.
If you really want a copy, give me your e-mail add and I will write you and get your mailing address. I definitely and gladly will send you a copy.

ricadelide:
I do not agree that the Grail Message is the truth.

You are entitlled to you opinion. Even after reading the book, you are entitlled to you opinion. But then that would be a more informed opinion since you have heared from the Book Iself. you can then voice your dissagreement objectively because you will (1) be conversant about the book, (2) know exactly where your dissagrements are.


Now I have to return to my studies.
Thanks and remain blessed

Seeing the trend this thread is now leaning to, I wish to clarify why I opened this thread in the first place and why i insist on keeping to the point.
When I asked that we don't get into judging the Grail Message and It's writer, it's not that I am ashamed of the Grail message. Neither do I wish to hide the fact that I live by it. Neither I'm I afraid of having It scrutinized. I want this thread to be based on the bible. Here are my reasons:
1) I have read the bible very well and I know that even scripturally(biblically) the concept of the "crucification of Jesus" or the "physical blood of Jesus" as salvation does not completely agree with the scripture. with this thread I challenge bible readers to prove me wrong. There are other Christian sects that don't believe that the forgiveness of sins is only brought about by faith and the physical blood of Jesus. The catholics believe that forgiveness of sins comes by the sacrament of penance(confession)--I personally don't agree with this.
2) There is no need scrutinizing a book with people who have not read the book. I have read the bible very well and I expect other poster(in this thread) to have read it too. Don't bring is-lam in, because I have not read the Ko-ran very well and it will be unfair of me to judge it based on what other people say. This is why I said what I said about the Grail message earlier. Why scrutinize and judge It only based only on what I say.
3) The Grail message is not based on the bible. The writer draw HIS message from out of the TRUTH Itself, and not out of any book. So it will be irrational using It to prove the point of this thread which is (does the scriptures actually support the doctrine of "By Faith Alone", since It does not deal with bible.

I will be more than willing to examine the Grail Message(which i have found to be foolproof) with any body, provided that the person has read it. I encourgage anybody who has done so to open a thread and voice his disagreement. Infact I if there are such people(people who have read and found it lacking), let me know and I will start the thread myself.

I thank m-nwankwo and syrup for quickly resolving their differences in a matured manner. However I wish to bring Olabowale's and Syrup's attention to where their conversation is leading this thread. I don't want another Mus-lim/ Christian war nor Bible / Ko-ran war so please I beg you two to resolve your issues. This thread is based only on the bible.

I have to go back to my studing for my exam, I will post more on the issue of the thread after my exam. Any body who has read the bible and is willing to share is welcome to contribute.
Thanks