₦airaland Forum

@Chrisbenogor
Nice and thought provoking thread!

The Truth is that Jesus never said such things. Jesus taught people to strive for righteousness because only the righteous person will enter the kingdom of God.

He never said that He was dying to atone for our sins. Christ came to teach us how to live a righteous or God-pleasing life. He came to give us the words of God. One becomes righteous by believing the words of Jesus and making the words come alive within, I.e. by living the words. This is the only thing that can save man.

What a man sows is what he must reap. Believing that Jesus died for you will not save you. I personally believe that that idea was invented by Lucifer to deter men from striving for righteousness.

Jesus urged men to become righteous. According to the bible, He said:

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
(Mathew 5:20)

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father, which is in heaven is perfect."(Mathew 5: 48)

If you read the beatitude you will see that basically what He is saying is that what you give out is what you receive. This is the golden rule -- you reap what you sow. Even in the Lord's prayer He said "forgive us our trespasses as we have forgiven those that trespassed against us." In other words, you must give forgiveness to others before you expect to receive forgiveness from God. This is the same principle of "you reap what you so."

Those that sow righteousness, will receive the reward of righteousness. The reward for righteousness is admission to the kingdom of God. Those that sow evil will not receive this reward irrespective of what they believe. They must pay for their evil, or depart from evil, otherwise they are headed towards destruction irrespective of their belief that Christ had payed for their sins. This belief is a mockery to God's justice, those that believe it are deceiving themselves.

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap."(Galatians 6:7)

Nobody will pay for your sins except yourself.

Thanks and remain blessed.

Tùdor:
QUESTION:
1.what's are the fundamental differences between the grail message and other groups?
2. What makes your group the ''chosen'' ones to go to heaven.

@Tudor
Thanks for your questions. I will answer them in the order that you raised them.

1. The Grail Message is not a group, sect, church or cult. The Grail Message is a book written by Abd-ru-shin. Many groups or sects have been formed by readers of the book. Such groups are nothing more than a union of adherents of the Grail Message who come together for a purpose. The book does not demand that the reader should join any group or sect.

2. There is no chosen group. The Grail Message is opposed to all forms of dogmatism or dogma. The book maintains that the individual alone is responsible before God for all his deeds, irrespective of the individuals cult, church, race, and nationality. The Books maintains that man must become free from all forms dogmatism or dogma. Man must be free and employ his God-given free will; man must decide for himself in all his actions. And also in what to believe and what not to. Blindly following tradition will bring man no benefit. Even parents must allow their offsprings the right to chose what to believe in, once the offspring is of age. It is ones reponsibilty to question everything that he/she is taught, where ever the teaching or practice of any group fails to convince you or make sense to you, you must leave it alone. Blind faith has no spiritual benefit. Any group that pressures or interferes with peoples free-will is not in accord with the Grail Message. Such groups are groups that threaten people by tell them that unless they belong to this or that group they will not go to heaven. This is a spiritual threat and a great sin before God.

Only man himself or herself can decide to be chosen by God. One who lives in accord with the Truth will reach his spiritual goal (retuning to Paradise). This is tantamount to being chosen, but the decision lies with man. God is not a respecter of churches, groups or cults; anybody who lives in accord with the Truth will receive the befits of his righteous life irrespective of his creed, nationality, and race.

God is not partial. Whatever a man sows that he must reap. This is a law of God and no religion, creed or cult can annul it. Only your actions, words and deeds can justify you, and not your church, group, faith, or belief.

I hope this helps, feel free to raise more questions.

Thanks and remain blessed.

The above is my perception of the Grail Message. Every reader is wellcome to personally read the Grail Message and  have his/her own personal perception and experiencing of the Book.

There has been many threads on the Grail Message, there you will find my opinion of the book.

Below is my answer to a similar question on another tread:

I have read the book over and over again, and I have found it to be foolproof.  I have  put the book to scrutiny and It lived up to all It's claims. I have found it to be the TRUTH.

But don't base your assessment on just my opinion, weigh and examine everything you read. The author demands that you weigh and examine everything, unlike other religious books, the Grail Message does not require blind faith on anything. If you weigh and examine the contents of the book with an unbiased mind, you will definitely discover that it is the TRUTH.

Also, you will not be able to absorb the whole contents of the book in one reading. The book contains a lot, indeed everything. I have read it many times and each time I discover something new. But if you read carefully and with an open mind, you will get enough to convince you that the book contains the TRUTH even the first time you read it.

The book answers all questions concerning the human existence -- the purpose of human existence, humans relationship with God, and how humans should live. It goes further than that, It also explains the whole creation of God-- from the spiritual realm to the physical realm, and all the beings in creation. It goes further to explain things above creation--from the Divinity unsubstantiate(God) and the Divine plane. It also gives clarifications about Jesus(who was indeed the son of God), His teachings and His mission on earth.

You are welcome to share some issue that you don't understand in the book, I will be more than happy to offer clarification.

Thanks and remain blessed.

Below are some of the threads:
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-147092.0.html#msg2444948

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-173782.0.html#msg2828761

You are welcome to ask any specific question on any issue concerning the Grail Messages. I will answer to the best of my knowledge.

Thanks and remain blessed.

@poster
why post this story when you have made up your mind about it.
If you are telling the truth, then what you saw was magic; they are simply using gadgets to trick you.
Such things are not possible. No body can make a wound disappear within minutes or stab a knife into his head without getting wounded or bleeding.

The last time I went to Nigeria I put my car on a bet, if only somebody could show where juju is used to break the laws of nature. Non could. One took me to a man who allegedly can defy gravity with juju. They claimed this man can throw his knife into the air and command it to hang on the air for hours. We went to this man and told him that my car will be his, if only he can perform the feat in-front of me. He told me that he will not do it due to my unbelief. I told him that he was a scam, he got upset and told me that I will not travel safely back to the US if I don't come and apologise to him and bring gifts to appease his gods.

Do I need to tell you that I came back safely to America and I never apologised to the fool.

I remember, when I was little, how they used to tell us that Aninie(the thief) could disappear and how bullets do not penetrate him. Only to find out in the end that the guy bribes the police and who let him go, and circulate the false rumour that the guy disappeared.

If Africans can do such things, why are we the poorest continent in the world. Why do we die of aids, tuberculosis and etc. Why can we use our juju to make the continent better than America.

While the civilised world is busy studying the laws of nature and how to apply it to achieve grate feats. While they excel in math, physics, chemistry and engineering, due to the fact that they know that the laws of nature are immutable, unbreakable and inflexible; my people are busy performing cheap tricks and misleading each other.


Please tell those guys that I have five thousand dollars ready to bet, if they can do thier juju in front of my eyes. I am not kidding, I can arreange to come to UK to witness.

I am convinced that nobody can do such things, and I wll go to any lenght to witness one.

@seeklove

Thank you.

The emptiness of some threads in this forum has made me stay away for sometime. But finally I came to the realization that I can help in enriching this forum by creating threads that will invite serious seekers for serious reflections.

So this thread is intended for serious seekers, who are able to display maturity and respect for their fellow posters; all such people are welcome irrespective of their views, faiths and religious orientations.

Please avoid insults, personal attacks, false claims, and disrespect for other people’s religious leaders, and heroes – Jesus, Mohamed and etc. You can quote them or any source but no attacks to such figures since some poeple(me included) hold them in high regards.

Now to the law of reciprocal action.

This law has been described by many, and many terms have been used to designate this law. Terms like—karma, and etc. To so many people it means different things.

To avoid confusion I will briefly define what I mean by “the law of reciprocal action.”  In the context of this thread, this law is used simply as the law that returns to us whatever we have thought, said or done in the past. I.e. all my past actions will returned to me; if I act kindly, one day I will receive kindness. If I act cruelly, one day I will receive cruelty in many folds. Thus we cannot escape the consequences of our actions.

But let us put this law under scrutiny and see if it is just another fantastic idea invented by man or weather it is a reality. As human beings, let us start from our visible environment, let us look around us in the physical world, where Science operates and see if this law applies here as well.

One of the first things one learns along the study of science is that for every action there is a reaction. Thus in the physical world, there cannot be an action without a reaction. Let us look at Newton’s third law, “For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.”

Examples
(1) Movement of Forces:  If I use my hand and exact the force of 20 N on a wall (Action), the wall will automatically exact the same amount of force towards my hand. (Reaction) If my body is not bolted to the ground, this force will make me move or if the wall is not bolted to the ground this force will cause it to move.
(2) The mechanism of speech and hearing:  The decision to speak is made in the brain, which then sends signals to the mouth. The sound wave that I set in motion with my mouth causes the air to vibrate which reciprocally is felt by me, and which causes my ear drum to vibrate in accordance with the motion of the waves. This vibration of my ear drum is sent via nerves to my brain which interprets it. Here again we see and action and its reciprocal action returning back to the origin.
(3) Rocket propulsion: The movement of rockets is an application of the immutable law of reciprocal action by science. The explosions of volatile gasses inside the burning chamber of the rocket cause the gasses or flames to leave the rocket with a force which is equal and in opposite direction to the force that the gasses apply to the rocket causing the rocket to move in opposite direction. Another way to put it is this: the gasses leave the rocket, propelled by the force of pressure in the chamber of the rocket; in reciprocation, the gasses apply a force of equally magnitude in the opposite direction, i.e. towards the rocket which causes the rocket to move.  The rocket pusses on the gasses (action) and the gasses push back on the rocket (reaction).

From the examples above we see that the law of action and reaction is a reality in the physical world. And science, which deals only with the physical world, has recognized his law and applies it.  Everywhere in the physical world we see this law in effect, in biology, in psychology, in politics, and even in economy. So we see that this law is not only limited to physical science, it embraces all areas of human life even in mans social life. We see it in biology, when we plant corn and reap corn; we see it in psychology when we react to other peoples actions; we see it in economics when we study production and demand, which are two things that are reciprocally connected to each other.

But then when it comes to our actions we doubt this law. Our actions in earth also belong to the physical world, why do when then refuse to accept that our actions also react reciprocally on us.

I will give an example:
Mr. A sits down and thinks on how to steal from his neighbor but never carries out this thought.
Mr. B thinks the same thoughts and goes ahead and steals from his neighbor, and is not caught.
Mr. C thinks the same thoughts, commits the crime but gets caught, and goes to jail.

Now let’s analyze these three criminals.
(Mr. A) The lay man will say that Mr. A did noting wrong and thus did not and will not pay for any crime. But knowing that there is a reaction to every action is this true? No! The equation remains unbalanced because Mr. A did something – He thought about stealing—this thinking sets waves of currents into the world just like a mere movement of the mouth or the tongue sends waves of sound through the ear. If we didn’t have ears we might as well ereaneousely conclude that speaking produces no sound because we cannot hear the sound. After all the mouth and the brain are both physical organs, now what makes us think that the movement of the mouth induces waves while the movement of the brain (thinking) does nothing in our environments? This conclusion that thoughts are nothing and that one does not pay for thought, or the popular saying that "thoughts are free," is wrong and illogical.
Thus it is only logical to conclude that the thoughts that we produce effect our environment, it goes away from us and it reciprocally returned to us. It can harm others or be attracted by others but whatever, it will finally return to us (the producer).
Is this not Karma or the law of reciprocal action?

(Mr. B) In the case of Mr. B we see an equation with two unknowns, or two gaps. And we know that nature leaves no gaps and nothing unsolved. It is only logical to conclude that Mr. B will pay for his thoughts and also for his action (stealing) because these are two different things and each has its reciprocal action. The fact that Mr. B was not caught does net really matter in regards to the laws of nature. The Laws operate without fail even when nobody is around to witness it. Scientists know that the laws of nature were as much in effect as it is today before the existance of man.

(Mr. C) will also pay for his thoughts and actions. The fact that he went to jail does not remove any of the consequences of his action. Because being sent to jail is just a judgment done by man, which cannot change or annul the immutable laws of nature. Man cannot change or annul the laws of nature; even scientists have to study and comply with the laws of nature and the scientists have no say when it comes to the laws of nature.

So the law of reciprocal action is not just fantasy. It is real, we pay for what ever we think, do or say. Thus “God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.” If we understand the law of reciprocal action, then we can easily understand why we are told that “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man.” Because what ever proceeds from us will be reciprocally returned to us, be it good thoughts, good deeds, and good words.

In addition to this, we are spirits and every thing we do also has spiritual reciprocal effect. Although I cannot provide any scientific evidence about the existence of the Spirit for Science deals only with physical matter; the Spirit is not physical nor made up of physical matter. But for those of us who have experienced the non-physical and caring a living conviction in the existence of the spirit and the spiritual, we can only logically conclude that the same laws that operate in the physical world also operate in the non-physical worlds, including the spiritual world. Thus like the law of gravity, the law of reciprocal action is to be found in all parts of creation, from the highest heights to the lowest depths, this law, which bears love and justice within it, actually has its origin in THE CREATOR.


This is my perception. Please shear yours.

@huxely

I have answered the question of generation curse in the past. Here is the answer I once gave:

Generational curse does not imply that it is God who curses the descendants.
"The sins of the fathers shall be vissited on to the sons," does not mean that it is God who does this injustice by making the sons suffer for the sins of their fathers. It is we humans that are responsible for this injustice. How??
I will give an example:
A man teaches his son that God does not exist. This teaching and the belief(atheism) resulting from it is evil will remain in the family. Even after the father dies, the son still carries this belief; and he may teach his sons the same thing. And from generation on to generation the evil continues. Even many years after the man who invented it has died, as long as the belief is still passed down, from generation to generation, in his family, the evil remains. And the consequence of this evil, will remain and afflict the family from generation to generation until one generation realises that this belief is wrong.
If they discard this wrong belief and seek God; they will find the Truth, and consequently, the curse will fall away from them.
Therefore be careful with what you teach your descendants. The man who teaches his descendants wrong teachings, will remain held in the beyond after he dies; he will not be able to ascend to Paradise as long as his wrong teaching remains in the family. Even if it takes centuries.

Therefore be careful with what you teach your descendants. You will be held accountable for whatever you teach people. Even everything you write in the Nairaland forum; you must one day face the consequences.

Bastage:
My interpretation, when taken with 5:40 is that it is an admonishment.
It's basically saying that the study of Scripture isn't the be all and end all. One has to look at the bigger picture as well.


Well. You did ask.

[size=16pt]Word![/size]

@image 123
I am happy that you mentioned wikipedia. Okay lets use it as our reference.

Please check out this chart from wekipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ChristianityBranches.svg

Also read about the history of Christainity in wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity

Image123:
Wonderful lesson above.I hope we all can gain something from it for our edification.


I asked for you to verify from reliable sources because it’ll not suffice to just go through some article or similar forum on the internet and then begin to base the truth solely on that.Are your deductions from unbiased and original veritable sources?examples of popular veritable sources are wikipedia and the encyclopedia Britannica.The information on this types of sources are scrutinized and unbiased. Also, what are your sources on church history?
After the church began, differing doctrines (heresies) began to come in.This were usually settled by councils.There were already sects within the church.The term "catholic" was already being used increasingly to denote the true faith laid down by the apostles and to distinguish between true and false.The earliest evidence available of the use of the term dates as far back as AD110 in a letter by Ignatius of Antioch.

The apostles did not start Catholicism. Catholicism was started during the realm of empero Constantine, who tried to make roman christianity the universal religion of the roman empire. This is centuries after the apostles, including peter died.

Image123:
In 380, emperor Theodosius published an edict ordering that the faith taught to the Romans by Peter should be accepted by all nations.The title "catholic" was then reserved for those type of churches worldwide and it became the legal religion of the romans.Is that right or I’m lying? Its years after this that the roman catholic church split into the orthodox, protestants and the R.Catholics. All the factions today technically belong under one of these 3. The point here is, when they "collated" the today’s Bible, we were all together. The Ethiopian church can trace its Christian origins to around AD330 when they had their first bishop.Thats before the split.Due to spread of i slam and church growth decline, Ethiopian Christians became "boxed in" by m uslim countries (communication gap). During this time they among other things embraced monophysitism. I believe that they’ve now being updated.
The old testament is made up of 39 books, the Hebrew bible used in Judaism attests to that FACT.There’s no point adding to it. That was what Jesus used and He didn’t complain about it.Of course there were other good books written by men of God during the OT period.e.g c 2nd Chronicles 9v29.God chose these 39. There’s no major truth that any of this other books may contain that are not already revealed in the 39 books. If you choose to, you can access this other books and read,I don’t think it’s a crime, but don’t force them into the bible. B T W, you're yet to finish reading the Bible oo, don't be greedy/ covetous, friend.
Coming to the New Testament, many books were written by disciples and followers of Christ, but God has divinely ordained and permitted 27. Others simply could not make it. They’ve probably passed away or are going and coming, which is uncharacteristic of God’s Word that ENDURES throughout the ages. This 27 books have faced uncommon ordeals to be exterminated.They’ve stood the test of time. Many of this 27 books were considered as Scripture by the apostles themselves.And as said earlier, there’s nothing missing in them, nothing. Not all of Paul’s writings are there, not all the 12 disciples’ books are there. Just what we need is there. With what we have on ground, we can get to heaven.That’s the important thing to see/note. That’s the purpose of God’s Word. This 66 achieve that purpose no matter the amount of “errors” and “incompleteness” that we may claim that it has.I'm hoping this can be of help to you

Before catholicisim took its roots, Christianity was already taking roots all over the world. The Ethiopian othodox church did not branch from catholicism, in-fact it is older than catholicism.

Also, consider, the letter addressed to seven churches in asia, in Revaltion. These seven churches were not catholicisim. They were simply chrisatin churches. Catholicism was not found by the apostles, neither was Catholicism found by the disciples, and definitely not by Peter. Before catholisim, christain churches were already taking roots in different parts of the world. Consider the letters that Paul wrote to different churches, some of these letters are in the Bible. Now I ask you a question; Where those churches catholic churches? Was catholicism in exsistance at the time Paul wrote those letters.

Thanks and remain belessed.

Just food for thought.
Please posters, consider the following verses:

"Is not this written in the Book of Jasher?"
(Joshua, 10. 13.)
"Behold it is written in the Book of Jasher."
(II. Samuel, 1. 18)

The book of Jasher was mentioned twice in the Bible, but not to be found in it.

Here is a list of books mentioned in the Bible but not included in it:

The Book of Wars - Num. 21:14
The Book of Jasher - Josh. 10:13
The Chronicles of David - 1 Chron. 27:24
The Book of the Kings of Israel and Judah - 2 Chron. 27:7; 35:27; 36:8
The Book of the Kings of Israel - 1 Chron. 9:1; 2 Chron. 20:34.
The Words of the Kings of Israel - 2 Chron. 33:18.
The Decree of David the King of Israel - 2 Chron. 35:4.
The Chronicles of Samuel the Seer - 1 Chron. 29:29
The Chronicles of Nathan the Prophet - 1 Chron. 29:29
The Book of Gad - 1 Chron. 29:29
The Book of the Prophet Iddo - 2 Chron. 13:22
The Words of Shemaiah the Prophet - 2 Chron. 12:15
The Deeds of Uzziah by Isaiah the Prophet - 2 Chron. 26:22; 32:32
The Book of Jehu - 2 Chron. 20:34
The Record book of Ahasuerus - Esther 2:23; 6:1

Pastor AIO: I can't tell whether I'm amused or irritated. Is it not a known fact that in many languages in the conjugation of verbs the person is often left out. For instance in spanish if I want to say 'I'm eating payela' I don't have to say Yo Como Payela. All I have to say is 'Como Payela'. 'NO tengo dinero' means I don't have any money (A very useful phrase to know if you ever go to South America). There is no person in 'no tengo dinero'. Tengo is not just have, but I Have.
As a result in many such languages the imperative (command) can get mixed up with the present indicative. 'Vive' can be a command to someone to live somewhere. On the other hand Vive can also mean 'She lives . . . ' somewhere.

As it happens this is the case with the greek language. As pilgrim.1 tells us that she has studied greek I presume that she is well aware of this in the conjugation of greek verbs. In which case I can only assume that she has been willfully deceptive and mendacious.

This word ερευνατε (Ereunate) can be translated as you search (present indicative) or as a command Search. Which is it?

Well let us consider the context in which we find it. The statement 'Ereunate the scriptures' is followed by a reason why. '- for in them you think that you have eternal life'. When someone does an action such as search the scriptures there is often a reason for it. That reason is based on a presumption or belief that they have. They search the scriptures because they think that therein lies eternal life. This following phrase tells us that Jesus is say 'You search . . .'. If it was a command it sounds wierd. It should rather be "Search the scriptures because I Say that therein you have eternal life". not 'I'm telling you to search the scripture because YOU THINK that therein you have eternal life'. because you think' tells me that Jesus is referring to an action that originates from their own impulses and not a command from Jesus.

Knowing now that Pilgrim.1 is actually familiar with Greek is disturbing because it suggests to me that she is willfully trying to deceive.

Pastor you are wise!

@Image123

Image123:
Joh 5:39 Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Actually John 5:39 does not encourage people to search the scriptures. Here is the same verse from other translations:

 
International Standard Version (©2008)
"You examine the Scriptures carefully because you suppose that in them you have eternal life. Yet they testify about me. But you are not willing to come to me to have life."

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."


GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"You study the Scriptures in detail because you think you have the source of eternal life in them. These Scriptures testify on my behalf. Yet, you don't want to come to me to get [eternal] life."


American Standard Version
"Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; and ye will not come to me, that ye may have life."

Bible in Basic English
"You make search in the holy Writings, in the belief that through them you get eternal life; and it is those Writings which give witness about me. And still you have no desire to come to me so that you may have life."

Douay-Rheims Bible
"Search the scriptures, for you think in them to have life everlasting; and the same are they that give testimony of me. And you will not come to me that you may have life."


The verse correctly said that people search the scriptures because they think that the scriptures contain eternal life. But the scriptures at best bear witness or points towards Jesus Who is the Truth. Therefore there is no eternal life in the scriptures. Eternal life only comes by living the words of Jesus. Therefore we should put Christ before everything, even before the scriptures. This is what the verse(John 5:39) is saying.

In some translations, the meaning was changed or distorted, i.e, in King James version we have:

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." (King James Bible)

The king James translation omitted the "You" at the beginning of the sentence making it sound like a comand, but actually it is a reproach.

Besides in John 5:39, or in the time of Jesus, what was referred to as the "scriptures" was not the Bible we have today. What they had then was what the jews have today as the torah, parts of which is contained in the old testament.

@ image123.
Pardon me, but you are wrong in your assertion about the Catholic Church.

Image123:
The catholic church you’re probably referring to here is not the same catholic church as we have it today. Then, there were no protestants. The word catholic just meant universal i.e the universal body of Christ.

Image123:
As I said earlier, what you refer to here as the catholic church was the only church at that time.There was no church outside it yet.

You are wrong in the above. Consider the following.

1) The Catholic Church was not the only Christian domination at that time. Infact I have heard historians argue that the Ethiopian Orthodox church is older than the Catholic Church.

2) Catholic Church stated as roman Christians. There were Christians in Rome as far back as the time of Emperor Nero, just as there are Christians in all over the world at that time. But at that time Christianity was illegal and unpopular in Rome. Until later when the roman emperor Constantine became a Christian and made roman Christianity the official religion of Rome. This official Christian religion of Rome, in order to win converts, the church retained so many of the ancient roman beliefs and traditions. I.e. in Rome, even as far back as the time of Julius Caesar, the chief Priest, or leader is called the pontifex maximus. Caesar was a pontifex maximus. Inorder to win supersticious roman who would never disobey the pontifex maximus, Constantine incorporated the office of the pontifex maximuns into Christianity. The Bishop of the roman Christians henceforth also become known as the pontifex maximus, -- the pope or papa. Today popes are still addressed as the pontiff, which is a word derived from the ancient Roman word Pontifex.

3) Only when Constantine made roman Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire did the religion become know as the Catholic or universal religion of the empire. Not universal body of Christ as such, but the universal religion of the world which was the Roman Empire. Constantine wanted to use the religion to unify the Roman Empire, which to them was the whole world; that’s why they had the council of nicea. All the bishops all over the world came together to sort out their different beliefs and become part of the universal religion. Each of the bishops represented a Christian church and Constantine seceded in merging most of them with the Roman church, or Catholicism.

4) Therefore, even before Christianity became legal in Rome, different Christian churches or denominations had already taken roots in different parts of the world. Most of them letter got incorporated into the Catholic Church, but some did not, i.e. the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

The bible that we have today was compiled by the Catholics. When they became the universal religion of the Roman Empire, they collected all Christian and Jewish scriptures, including letters that the apostles wrote to different churches. Out of this collection they choose to compile what we have as the bible today. This is why the scripture or the bible of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is different. They kept some of the books that the Catholics rejected. Even the Gnostic Christians kept some of the books that the Catholics rejected.
Later out the catholic bible, the Protestants rejected more books, like Macabes 1 and 2, Tobias, Ecclesiasticus, and Baruch.

Thanks

Tasma: It's quite sad that meaningful, intelligent threads always tend to get dragged through all this aimless rambling. No wonder the original poster hasn't been back here for a while. The key points made by the poster stand, he's assertion that the Bible is bound to contain many flaws due to the hand of man and hence that he cannot base he's faith on this "imperfect compilation". Where is the confusion in that? He has not said he has nothing to learn from the Bible he has only said that he reads it with a discerning spirit and takes the message from it with being too involved in the "literalness" (my own word!) of it. A poster keeps going on about him saying that he's faith is not in the Bible. It's obvious that he means he does not bother about the correctness of every word in the Bible but simply reads it in a spiritual way. Is this so hard to understand? If we can admit that errors may have occurred during translations of the Bible from one language to another is it hard to imagine several errors that may have crept in via compilations, editing, intentional manipulation by various Kings and Clerics.

Lastly the question really to ask is that does the fact that a story is not literally correct mean that it cannot carry a message? I can write a completely fictional book that still carries a powerful message to people. Does one have to insist on the Bible being 100% accurate to back up it's usefulness to humankind? If anything insisting the Bible is flawless only leaves room for all sorts of critics to argue endlessly about this, useful time that can sent actually spreading the message of love and care among human beings. The stance that the Bible can only be interpreted properly with the holy spirit has really nothing to do with this argument. Any religious book has a profound message for the reader if one reads with the right spirit, heck a non-religious book may have a profound impact on a person's life if read with the right spirit. Does this mean that the book is literally totally flawless and 100% correct? Of course not! Would be nice if we could reduce this endless arguing for the sake of it and have the courage to admit others might have a point even if it's something we don't feel disposed to agreeing with.

This is pure wisdom. Reading the above post amidst all the rumblings in this thread is like finding an oasis in the desert.
I completely agree with everything that Tasma said in the above post.

olabowale:
Forget theology: look at the Bible itself, in its purity, if you can find it. Then compare it with Qur'an, in Arabic which is readily available, around the world. Interestingly, over a million people alive today commit the Qur'an to memory. And many more a greater portion leading to almost 100%. then there is still more people, in degree of memorization. Even my mother who at her old age became muslim, must at least know by now how to recite Surah Fatiha, in Arabic. Plus i might say, other short surahs; Iklas, etc.

Thats what you need to examine. Not theology. The Children of israel, in their yashivas try to their Torah, whatever they think is original, including the talmuth, and others, are being committed to memory, in order to preserve them in originals. Do you have this in Hebrew, or Aramaic about the Bible?

@Olabowale
This thread is not about comparing the Bible with the Koran. Why turn every thread into a religious war? The fact the Bible is not perfect does not make the Koran perfect! Please take the Koran out of this thread!
Start another thread about the perfection or the purity of the Koran and I will give you my take on the Koran. Just be sure you can handle the Truth, before you start the Tread!

@seeklove
I keep telling you to stop fighting my battles for me. Consider, there is a reason my Christ kept quiet when false accusations were made against him by the mob who cried "crucify Him." Its high time you start looking beyond the physical and judge from the spiritual. Now, I am not comparing myself to Christ, I am only trying to learn His ways. When you understand the spiritual reason for their malicious attacks, then rather than being upset you will feel sorry for them.
In my post I clearly put John in parenthesis after quoting. I clearly showed that I was quoting John, and not Mathew. Here is what I wrote:

justcool: According to the gospel writers, the Jew fought against Christ with the scriptures. Hence according to mathew Jesus said to them:

"You examine the Scriptures carefully because you suppose that in them you have eternal life. Yet they testify about me. But you are not willing to come to me to have life." (John 5:39-40)(International standard version Bible)

Actually the Mathew there was a typo, which even a child can clearly see. Her accusation would have been justified if the quote was made and not in the bible or written by the gospel writers. Now tell me what is the point capitalizing on this, I clearly quoted John. Not only that, I gave a the version of the bible that i was quoting. Now ask youself, what is the point capitalizing on this?
Actually there is verse similar to that, in meaning in Mathew; but let the accuser find out him/herself. Consider that my post was only directed to Kunle.
Capitalizing on it is a childish strategy that losers employ. When a child is losing ground, he or she might start pointing unimportant things. Like a child will tell you, "your cloths are cheap" when he is losing an argument that has nothing to do with cloths. It simply show you that there is no flaw in my argument, so the attacker starts to bring in unimportant things like typos and punctuation. There is no flaws in my argument which he/she can hold on to. So he/she starts to hold on to unimportant things. And if you don't watch it, he/she would condescend to personal attacks.
And don't ever think that I am intimidated or running away from anybody. The truth speaks for itself; anger, accusations and etc are only found where the Truth is lacking. All these are attempts to drag you down to their level. So when I keep quite, its not that I am intimidated; I just don't want to be dragged down to that level.
I tell you what. Just print all my post in this thread, also print my attackers post. Take the print out and give to somebody who is unbiased, perhaps an American. And ask him/her "between my attacker and I, who is losing grounds?"
Learn to see beyond the physical.

@pilgrim 1
My post was directed to kunleOshob and not you!
Why take offence over every issue.

I stand by what I wrote to kunleOshob. Let the reader read yours and mine and then they can clearly see who is who.

About you asking me if I live a true Christian life. My answer is this:
"By their works you shall know them."  Please examine my posts, see if they are Christ-like, then make up your mind. I will not glorify myself, but God never fails to fight for His servants. This, I guaranty you.

About the scripture that I quoted, Mathew said the same thing too. I presume that you know the Bible.

Thanks and I wish you well.

@KunleOshob
You raised very important and honest concerns in your first post of this thread. I can see that you are an honest seeker of the Truth. I can also see that you have knowledge of History and you are not afraid to question indoctrination.
My advice to you is not to succumb to the spiritual highwaymen, they seek to indoctrinate everybody and make everybody religious.
The Truth is that religion, Bible and God are three different things. True Christianity is a way of life, and not a religion neither is it the practice of a book. After all, Christ founded no religion, and Christ did not right any book. The True worshipers of God, worship Him in Truth and in Spirit. The worship of God is not dependant on any religion, neither is it dependant on any book. Consider, that True Christianity existed before the compiled book which we call the Bible.

During the creation of man, God gave man the breath of life. This breath of life in man, which is from God, is the spirit in man. This spirit has the ability to recognise the Truth. It admonishes us through our conscience. This is the spirit that we should use to seek God and worship God with. Whatever this spirit in us does not agree with, we must not be forced or indoctrinated to accept that for it will lead us no way. Therefore don't give in to their attacks, and hold on to what your spirit tells you. Perhaps the spirit in you is still alive, and thats why you questions certain things.

Being scripturally knowlegable does not mean being close to God. Consider that according to scriptures, even the devil quoted to scripture and tried to use it to tempt Christ.
The Truth is that so many people have succumbed to this temptation and have condescended to the worship of the scriptures.The scriptures were written to bear witness to the Truth. One should never put the scriptures before God or the spirit of Christ in him, for such will be worship of the scriptures. The scriptures do not give salvation, which comes only from obedience to God. According to the gospel writers, the Jew fought against Christ with the scriptures. Hence according to mathew Jesus said to them:

"You examine the Scriptures carefully because you suppose that in them you have eternal life. Yet they testify about me. But you are not willing to come to me to have life." (John 5:39-40)(International standard version Bible)

You see how the worship of the scriptures can hold people back from going to Jesus or accepting the eternal Truth which gives life.

Also remember that the events and sayings on the scriptures may not be accurate since they may not have been correctly passed down. So all the sayings attributed to Jesus in the scriptures may not be correct. He may not have actually said it exactly the way it was written. And what was written may have been tampered with. Therefore the errors found in the scriptures should not be attributed to Jesus. We need to use the spirit in us in-order to be able to separate the Truth from the false.

And please do not be discouraged by those who say that you are sick. There is nothing wrong with you. I wish you strength in your seeking.

Remain blessed.

Although if considered objectively, and judging by the surface, one might say that the poster has a point. But if you go deeper into it, then one realises that the post is nothing but a subtle way of insulting Christians and condemning them. Consider these facts:

1) The poster is a muslim, modesty should have made him direct his admonition to everybody in nairaland, including muslims. Granted that there are poeple who behave like animals in this forum, but I have seen them in all religions: -Christians, Muslims, and etc. Therefore it is unfair to single out Christians. If the posters concern is genuine, perhaps he could have expressed his feelings without naming any particular religion. That would have been the most effective way.

The posters attitude reminds me of the an Hausa saying: Where one danced and was given money, the other danced and received a beating."

2) Muslims have not done better than the Christians in terms behaving rudely. I remember a Muslim went as far a threatening Seun with fatawa! I am not saying that all muslims are bad but the admonition of the poster should not be speared Muslims because perhaps they need it most. Charity begins at home.

3) The Muslims have their own child board now, where they can give vent to their islamisin. The Muslim board was given to them due to their threats on Seun and their complaint against Christians. Now that they have their own board, if they find Christians irritating, why don't they just ignore Christians and stick to the Muslim board. Seun have given them what they wanted, which is separation from the Christains, yet they can't leave mother board alone. They keep coming into the mother board to fight Christians. This is also applicable to some Christains who go to cause trouble in the muslim board. Why linger in the board where you have annoying people, when you have your own board? Reminds of an old Nigerian adage: "the funeral ceremony is over, yet the drummer lingers. Does he want to marry the widow?"

4) Consider the name of this thread. "The ignorance of Christains!" If the poster, who is a Muslim has peace in mind, wouldn't he have chosen a better name for this thread. What would be the Muslims reaction if one starts a thread called the "The ignorance of Muslims." Would Muslims have taken this insult lightly? Considering that their sensitivity once made Seun tamper with everbody's post, changing Islam to "the great religion" so that Muslims would be satisfied.

I do not defend any religion. As a matter of fact, I don't even have a religion. But I hate injustice. It is my duty as one aspiring to be a servant of God, to speak the Truth and expose injustice where ever I find, even if it is not directed against me. I will not be afraid to speak the Truth, neither will I hide to Truth; and the Truth of the matter is that the faults pointed out by the post are not limited to Christains. Perhaps Muslims have the same fault to a far greater extent.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?(mathew 7:3)

Everybody should learn from the issues that the poster raised, including the poster himself. He is wrong to direct it against Christains only.

Thanks

@redsun
Hell actually exist, but hell was not created by God. There is a law in creation that says "what you sow is what you reap." This law was placed in creation by God. The rational behind this law is that every creature will receive the reciprocal effects of his/her actions. Thus if you give love and kindness to your neighbor, you will receive love and kindness in a much greater extent, not necessarily from your the same neighbor.

This law operates in all parts of creation; it operates in the physical planes, beyond, and spiritual planes. It can be observed in all parts of creation, even on earth.

The physical manifestation of this law allow us to plant one seed of corn and during hervest reap kernels of corn. You cannot plant corn and reap rice, neither can you plant apples and reap guava. This is the physical manifestation of this law called the law of reciprocal action. If you plant corn, you will definitely reap corn.

Science has also seen the physical manifestion of this law in all things physical. Newtons third law of motion describes the physical manifestation of this law of reciprocal action. Newtons law states that "to every action, there is a reaction which is equally and oppsite in the direction of the initial action." Thus as I apply a force of fifty Newtons on a wall, the wall will automatically apply the same amount of force me." This is automatic, inviolable, impartial and unchangeable. If I hit my hand on a wall with a force, the wall will apply the same force to my hand, and I could get injured. I have nobody to blame for my injury except myself.

Every thing we do, think and speak, takes on form and awaits us. Due to the law of attraction of homogeneous species, all the forms of evils we do attract each other and wait for us. If they mature before we depart this earth, we will reap them while we are still alive. We reap them as sorrows, misfortunes, accidents, and etc. But if we pass on or die before paying or reaping all the evil we have sown, we will be drawn into that environment where all those evil forms are attracted and accumulated. This environment is what men call hell. It is only the reciprocal effect of all our wrong actions. For every action, there has to be a reaction. In hell we receive the reaction for all our wrong actions we did on earth. Thus, if you plant evil, you will definitely reap evil or the fruits of evil either here on earth or in the beyond.

Thus hell should not be attributed to God. Hell is a consequence of the evil that men do.

In addition to what m_nwankwo has already said; I like to share my own perception on the issue.

I would say that Lucifer(who later became Satan) was not created. Lucifer, like all beings that originated in the Divine plane (the immediate radiation of God) was not created; rather, they are the consequence of the existence of the light.

God Himself is comparable to light. Being Light, He radiates; the Divine plane with all the beings that took on form in it, are the radiation of God.

I repeat: God is Light. Light has to radiate. The radiation of God is the Divine substantiality plane. God Himself is Divine unsubstantiality. Or better said; God is God; He is above all.

Consider even the light we see everyday. We see the radiation of the light, and this is what we call light. The actual Light itself cannot be seen. The light cannot be without its radiation!

The relationship between light and its radiation is comparable to the relationship between God and the Divine plane. Both are eternal and had existed before creation and before any creature was created.

God is such a powerful Light that His rays or His radiations take on living forms and express his will. Just as the rays or radiation of light express the nature of light and offer us visibility. Thus the visible form of light is the rays, or radiation. But a ray of light can stray so far away from the light or pass through another medium that will make it no longer express the nature of the light. Consider a ray from a white light passing through a green medium or glass; once the ray passes through this medium, its color becomes green. Thus no longer expressing the true color of the Light.

None can see the form of God or the actual nature of God, but His rays or radiations are the visible forms of his will that takes on form. The Divine substantiate beings are such forms. The Divine substantiate plane is the radiation of the Primordial Light called God.

This is why Lucifer cannot be eliminated. Lucifer originated in the immediate radiation of God. The substance that he is made of is or was part of is the radiation of God. It is comperable to the substance a ray of light is made of. As long as the light remains, the ray has to remain.

Even the light bulb in your room or in your office. Once you turn on the light, radiations or rays issue from it and offer you visibility. As long as the light remains on, the rays or radiations has to remain. You cannot have light without rays or radiations; neither can the light stop it's rays or its radiation because it is a consequence of its existence.

All that took on form in the immediate radiation of God are good and express the will of God. But Lucifer was sent far away from the immediate radiation of God. Lucifer was sent into subsequent creation to aid the human spirits in their development.  Due to this distance from God, Lucifer developed a will of his own and in his impatience with the weak human spirits, the wrong principle arouse in him. He introduced the principle of temptation instead of the principle of love. Love, which stands in the will of God, demands he wait hand and foot for the human spirits to mature. In place of supporting love, he introduced the principle of temptation. Therefore the principle of temptation contradicts the will of God. By tempting the weak human spirits, so many of them fell, and by yielding to temptation, they may become altogether lost. This way the Shepperd became a wolf devouring his subjects. By acting against the will of God, he lost his connection with the Divine plane, and consequently became like a spirit. This is how he became Satan.

What happened to Lucifer can be compare to the ray that strayed from expressing the color of the light, by passing through a foreign medium. No matter how much the ray changes, the light cannot eliminate it. As long as the light remains, the ray will remain. This is a course analogy though.

Creatures or created beings are different. Creatures, including spirits, are derivatives from the radiation of God, not the radiation itself or part of the radiation or a condensation of the radiation.

Lucifer is not a creature. Neither is the Primordial Queen, nor the four winged animals at the steps of the throne of God, the arch angels and the angels in the Divine subsatantiate plane, and the 24 elders in the Divine subsatantiate plane. None of these are creatures.

The analogy of light, rays and radiations is a course analogy that faintly reflects the Truth. The Truth of the matter is that the relationship between God and Lucifer is far above our origin and ability to comprehend. As Human spirits we will never be able to completely know or understand what is Divine. We can only envisage it with analogies with things familiar with us. Therefore the truth about this issue is beyond the human spirit; the best explanation given by a human spirit concerning this issue will remain wanting.

This is my perception of the issue from my experiencing of the Grail message. I advice every reader of my post to read the Grail message himself, and make up his mind based on his own personal expereincing.

Dear pilgrim 1
Thanks for a wonderful exchange of views. In-order not to allow it to take us to a different path, I will dismiss myself. I have said all that I felt I should say.
Your views are well appreciated and respected.
A thosands cheers

dear pilgrim.1

pilgrim.1:
@justcool,

Many thanks for your reply. Before I take each question in detail, it should be clear that I have been discussing this whole subject particular from the Christian (or Biblical) perspective. Of course, some people may have different takes on the subject, and that's okay. But as we go along, the assertion that someone makes in denial of the true nature of demons as spirits may only be carried in so far as they are willing to show how that idea is substantiated by well-attested sources or references. Failing to do so would mean that such theorizing would just have to be dispelled.

In which case, it would not be in my immediate interest to delve into Biblical discussions on that subject addressing all those questions in so far as you take a stance against the Bible. Without pretences here, we know that the people who take to the Grail Message often hold that the Bible is not the truth - and as such, I don't there's any reason for me to be shy in stating clearly that their own musings are false as well. How? Even if I am a bit reserve in quoting verses from the Bible, at least I could also grant other sources in defining the term "demon"; and as I stated earlier, all major references hold that it is a spirit/being, and not a volition or thought. If the one making such a claim in definition of that term as a 'volition' could go beyond theorising and share substance on the subject, we should be glad to see it. Failing to do so, there's no other way of addressing it directly than what it is: an unsubstantiated theory.

With this in mind, I could then go on and share these matters in addressing your questions. But if the aim is to argue endless with recourse to fancies and theories, I would just leave them as is.

I really don't understand what you mean by the above. Do you wish to answer my questions or not.
If yes then I am all ears and I promise to respect your opinions even when I don't agree with. Have I not always done that?
If you don't want to answer my questions then its still okay. I still respect you and your opinions.

pilgrim.1:
. . . which brings the same question out yet again: if a demon is lust itself, how can "lust itself" influence people to "lust"? We know that a quality such as "love" could inspire or influence people to "love" other people - but this is not the same thing as a demon, because the demon is not a quality such as lust or love. This is the reason why I said clearly that every major reference you come across (whether from its historical Greek usage or contemporary treatment) point to one thing: a demon is a spirit being.

Cheers.

To answer the above question. These demons are like magnets. A magnets exhibits the quality of magnetism; and when brought in contact with other metal, over time this quality of magnetism will be influence the metal and make it a magnet too. The fact that something influences you does not mean that that thing is not tangible.

Most of the things that we call abstract are actually living forms in the beyond. This why most people get confused when the see the beyond.

You mentioned love. Love is also a living thing which God posses. I will give an example, the love of God is not just a quality but a living volition of God. All volitions of God are living and far superior to the volition of man.

Even the words of God are living things. If God say something, that thing automatically comes into existence and becomes living. Example--God said let there be light and then these was light! This process is also reflected in the spirits because the Primordial Spirits are in the image and likeness of God. Just as the words of God takes on form, the words of spirits(even human spirits) takes on form too.
It may sound strange to you when I tell you that the message of Christ has a form too. This form lightens or brightens the path of the departed who had lived the words of Christ while on earth. When it is said that the words of Christ lives, this is not only meant metaphorically but also literally.
Everything takes on form in the beyond. Even our convictions and beliefs. These forms shape the environment that we will find ourself in when we depart this earth.
I will give another example--Peter's conviction that Jesus is the son of God, took on the form of a rock. This convictions is a rock or a solid foundation for Peter, and this rock which is solid and unbreakable form is a protection and a solid foundation upon which Peter can rely on! This is a strong spiritual protection. The devil will have to break this rock before it can win over Peter. Thus as long as Peter holds this conviction, his house or spirit stands on a solid rock and protected by an unbreakable rock. This rock is not just a metaphor, it is actually real an in the beyond. This rock influences Peter, just as a demon influence its creators.
When Jesus said "Upon this rock I build my church." He was not talking about earthly rock, neither was He referring to Peter as a rock like the catholics claim. He was referring to a real and tangible rock in the beyond. This rock is a living form of the conviction in the Jesus as the son of God. Thus his church is built on the conviction that He is the son of God. His church is not built on peter who is just a humanbeing.

Also consider this statement:
In the beginning was the word, and the word was God!

Words, volitions, thoughts, all take on forms in the beyond. In the beyond, they are not just abstract but living forms.

Thanks.

@pilgrim 1
Thanks for your reply but I have a few questions for you.
1)You keep maintaining that Demons are spirits. What is a spirit?
2)what is a diabolical spirit?
3)Who created demons.
4) You said that they existed before man, what is their origin?
5)For what purpose were they created?
6)Since you believe in the bible as containing the whole Truth. How come in the bible description of how God created the world, demons are no mentioned. So when did God create demons?


I also wish to answer one question that you asked. You asked how can a volition have a volition? Here is the answer:
Volitions do not have volitions. Demons do not have volitions, rather they are forms of volition. They are living forms or embodiments of a particular volition. I.E-- a demon of lust knows nothing but lust, the demon is lust itself in a tangible form. It influences people to lust because it attracts lusts, its existence depends on the lust of people. It does not have a free will and a volition cannot arise in it. It is nothing but a tangible form of lust which derives its energy from lustful people.

You said that there is nothing like the neutral power of God. Even a child knows that the power of God is neutral. There is only one power and only one producer of power, and it is God. Creatures do not produce power, creatures only depend on the power of God, which can be used for good or for evil. Like everything that is lent, the receiver has to answer for his/her use of the power. Thus those that do evil with the power of God will have to answer to God for their misuse of His power. Even Lucifer depends on the power of God. Lucifer can not produce or manufacture power, only God can do this.

My analogy about Mr B and Mrs Z does not imply posesion. m_nwankwo has made it clear that demons cannot posses people, and this is true. The human body is a vehicle designed in such a way that only spirits can inhabit it or poses it. Demons only influence people but demons don't have enough power push away a human spirit from its body by taking control of its brain.

Thanks and remain blessed

@Pastor AIO,
You raised some important points but I need to re-read your posts again. But one that I think I saw in one of posts is that Demons can inspire knowledge. This is true if you look at in the light of my earlier explanation, you will see how this is possible.
An earnest volition for knowledge, takes on form. Guided by the law of attraction of homogeneous species it will attract all forms of like nature and these forms will form a powerful center in the beyond. Like a powerful knowledge magnet these forms will attract all the knowledge that all their producers poses, by attraction these of various knowledges, these knowledges become intensified and more complete; and through its connection with its producers, this more complete knowledge will be poured on its producers who only poses part knowledge. The people that a gifted to see the beyond can see these forms of knowledge desire as living entities, and can even speak and converse with them.

The forms that these volitions take corespond to the nature of the volition. There are beautiful forms, as well as ugly forms like a snake with six heads. A form of wickedness may take the form of a ferocious monster with ten horns and red teeth. We see such forms in works or art by artist who can see the beyond. Also in the Reveleation of John we see some of these forms. I.E, the dragon with many heads, which is a volition of Lucifer.

Thanks and remain blessed.

pilgrim.1:
I know the difference between a volition and a spirit - you have been asserting that a demon is a volition and yet have been unable to show any substance to that assertion.

If you define a demon as a "volition", you have seen none. People only observe the results of human volitions, not the volitions themselves, because volitions are abstract. A spirit is not abstract because it is a being that is ethereal and incorporeal, yet possessing a definite form. However, a demon also is a type of spirit which can exercise a volition on its own - it is not a "volition" exercising a "volition" - and in as much as you have kept up the idea that a spirit "produces" a demon, you have not seen any demons.

Cheers.

My dear pilgrim.1
How are you?

I will try to throw light on the issue of demons and their creators.

We Humans are creators too. But not like God, because God creates out of nothing but we can only create from something that already exists and by a borrowed power -- the neutral power of God. Therefore, actually we humans are formers not creators. But for the sake of clarity I shall keep using the "to create."

Just as humans on earth can build a house or make a car in the physical world, humans can also create, build or forms things in the beyond-- non physical worlds. Every movement of our physical body leaves a physically visible effect that can be seen on earth. Likewise every movement of our spirit leaves an effect in the spiritual world which can be seen only spiritually.

Every volition of our spirit takes on form. Perhaps it might sound strange to you if I tell you that this is how our prayers work. Prayers that arise out of earnest volitions have forms corresponding to the wish of the prayer. The lightness or the purity of this form allows it to rise upwards, it can be so pure that it can rise as far up as to the Divine plane, or to God. No mater how much high the prayer form goes, it remains connected to its creator, and through this connection, it will pour the blessings of heaven to it originator.

An earnest volition of evil also takes a form corresponding to the evil nature of the volition. If it is directed against somebody, it can harm that person, I.E -- if Mr B earnestly lusts after Mrs Z. This lust will take on a form corresponding to lust, and this form will move towards Mrs Z. This form can attach itself to Mrs. Z and harm her by making her lustfull, then from Mrs Z it will proceed downwards to hell(a plane corresponding to its heaviness), yet maintaining its connection with Mr. B and Mrs Z. But if Mrs Z is righteous, her righteousness will repel this form which then proceed downwards to hell without attaching itself to her. But this form remains connected to its creator(Mr B.) and through this connection, this form will pour the evils of hell to the originator. Mr. B will be bound to hell by this connection until he changes inwardly or repents from his evil volition.

Everything we do, think or say takes on form corresponding to its nature. The words that we speak take on form in planes of medium gross matter. The thoughts that we produce take on form in the planes of fine gross mater. But these(words and thoughts) are only produced with the physical body, and their forms easily die away, they are mere phantoms. People who are gifted to see planes of medium and fine gross matter have seen and testified that words, thoughts, and even emotions have forms and colours, I.E forms of envy always glow in dark green. Hence expressions like "He is green with envy."

But forms created by our spiritual volition, or the volitions of our spirit are not just phantoms but they are demons. They are far stronger than phantoms because they bear within them, the principle neutral power of God which only the spirit can receive and lend. Thoughts forms do not have this power because thoughts have their origin in the brain, and the brain cannot lend or pass over this power which is spiritual; the brain is physical. This is why we need to pray with our spirit and not just thoughts. Prayer by merely thinking cannever rise up to the God because it an inferior form. But prayers from our spirit can rise so high(as long as it is pure) because its form possesses the principle neutral power of God. Thus a real preayer is an earnest volition of the spirit.

Such forms (Forms arising from spiritual volition) are very powerful, they can be evil. If the volition is evil, the form of this evil volition is what people call demons. They influence their producer and other people who cannot repeal them. Anybody carrying evil of like nature within him/her can attract such forms. To these belong the furies and most of the gods that some of the ancient African tribes worshiped. As long as there are humans nourishing these evil volition, these forms will remain alive. But once there are no more such people, the forms will gradually die.  I have never seen such forms but I once dated a girl who was very clairvoyant, she could clearly see the demon that the heathens in her village worshiped. Such demons can approach people and seek to make such persons its spokesman or representative. So when the ancient igbos say that an idol wished for a certain person to become its priest. They are not lying. Such demons have strong influence on their worshipers and keeps them washipping it because only their worship and fear keeps the demon alive. But as soon as the people loses their fear and stop the demon worship the demon either dies or gets attracted to another demon of the same nature tormenting another people who still worship demons and live in fear of demons.

Demons are not spirits. Spirits are stronger than demons because spirits are creatures of God, or better said, spirits originates in the Kingdom of God. But demons are only living forms of volitions of Spirits. Just as the life and sustenance of a spirit depends of God, the life and sustenance of a demon depends on its creators. No demon can ever enter Paradise because demons are not works of God.

Lucifer also produced so many demons. His wrong volitions took on forms and tormented mankind. But even Lucifer's volition cannever be as strong as a spirit.  Spirits(human beings) only live in fear and torment of demons out of ignorance, not knowing God, and sin. Once the spirit recognizes its origin, its creator(God), and live in accord with the will of God, then such a spirit will not even need to battle with demons. His existence will dispel all demons around him. One who live in the laws of God need not battle with demons or battle with evil spirits like so many churches do. His existence will repeal all demons.

I will summarize:
All the forms produced by our spirits are living forms because they have the principle neutral power of God in them.
The spirits produce forms by its volition. Forms of good Volition take on good and beautiful forms and rise up to the plane corresponding to their lightness, and yet maintaining their connections to their creators, producers or originators. This connection remains until the producers change their volition or refrain from the good volition.

Forms of evil volition take on evil, ugly and heavy forms; they descend or sink to hell, a plane corresponding to their heaviness, yet maintaining their connections to their creators, producers or originators. This connection remains until the producers change their volition or refrain from the evil volition which nourishes the forms.

Prayers are forms of good volition sent upwards to God. Demons are form of evil volition.

Therefore m_nwankwo is right in his assertion that demons are spiritual volitions.


This is my perception of the issue based on my experiencing of the Grail message. As always, I advice readers of my posts to read the Grail message.

@sanoosy

sanoosy:
its questions like this that awakens many sleeping ones to a deeper contemplation and appreciation
of the true purpose of life on earth,provided he seeks objectively and with an open mind.[color=#006600][/color]

Good point !

@manmustwac

manmustwac:
justcool YES! I did the assignment you gave me but i still disagree with you, just because a very small minority of kids just happen to be extraordinarily gifted dosen't mean that they existed in a previous life.

Okay please will you be kind enough as to tell me how and where such kids got their gifts. So you believe in Gifts?!!!!! Interesting! Now explain to me the scientific reason behind such gifts.
Please explain to me how a three year old could perform a task the takes a life time to learn. When and where did the three old train or practice the task. 

manmustwac:
And how do you know that we have a spirit? Have you seen one before? Or touched one before? Since you can't see it or can't feel it how can u prove that the spirit exists?

So what you can't see, touch does not exist? Interesting point! Especially comming from somebody in this age when science has acknowledge that we don't see half of the things in our environment. Perhaps, I should stop purifying my water to get rid of germs, since I don't see, touch or feel germs.

Why won't you collect water from the toilet and drink it? Since you don't see anything, touch anything or feel anything in the water, the water must be clean.  Have you ever seen, touched or felt HIV virus? Why don't you receive blood from an Aids victim, since what you don't see or touch does not exist.

And please answer these questions:

How do you prove that your thoughts exist? Since you can't see, touch or feel them.
How do you prove that you have a mind? Do you touch, see or feel your mind?
How do you prove that life exist? Have you ever seen, touched or felt life?  Remember, living things and life are two different things.

I will give you a little help.
Living is a result of live or the effect of life. By seeing living things which is a result of life, I deduce that "life" exist.
It(Life) is that which makes thing move and grow. Thus by seeing an effect, one can deduce the thing that caused the effect. Now apply the same to all the questions above, including the existence of spirit.
Is it not clear now that the spirit exist??

Thanks

I await your reply.

@manmustwac

manmustwac:
How can you suffer from memory loss or brain injuries if you don't have a memory or don't have a brain? You get concussion as the result of an accident and for you to have an accident means you must exist.
Ok so you prove to me that someone you know who has passed away in the last 10 years still exists then?

I never said that one who doesn't have a brain can have a concussion or brain injury. People in the beyond do not have a brain, which is only a physical organ; therefore, it is impossible to have a brain injury in the beyond. I only used the concussion analogy to prove to you that the absence of memory does not mean absence of existence.

Every body inherits a new brain at incarnation. And we know that memory has to do with the brain. It logically follows that once your brain dies, the memories stored in it dies also. So when a man is born he is equipped with a new brain which has no memory stored in it. This is why you cannot remember what you did ten years before you were born. The memory of what you did ten years before you were born is not stored in your brain but in your spirit.

Therefore, there are two types of memory. (I) Memory stored in the Brain. (2)Memory stored in the spirit.
The Brain losses all its memories at physical death, but the spirit which still lives after physical death does not lose its memory at physical death. In expressing our incleanations, talents, premonition and intuition, we subconsciously express or make use of the memories stored in our spirits.

This is why certain people are born already equipped with some knowledge. Most of the things that we call talent are actually as a result of spiritual memory-- things learned in a past life, before the present incarnation. Mozart at a very tender age displayed musical talent. Even Micheal Jackson at a tender age could sing like somebody who has been attending a singing classes for years. If they didn't exist before birth, where did they learn these things?

Before you answer, read these websites:
http://www.scena.org/lsm/sm6-2/poison-en.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_child_prodigies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_music_prodigies

Science have for years tried to find the reason behind some children being born with some knowledge, incleanations, or ability beyond their age. Some have tired to attribute it to pre-natal education, heredity, and etc. But there is no evidence that pre-natal education works. Scientifically talent and knowledge cannot be passed down through heredity. So what is the source of the knowledge and ability that such children posses at very tender ages?

manmustwac:
Ok so you prove to me that someone you know who has passed away in the last 10 years still exists then?

I have once received a message from my dead father. There are countless documented cases where a living person receives a message from somebody who died over a century ago. Research, and you will find so many cases of such. Of course, some are false claims. But there are many that a not false. There are cases with enough evidence that contact has been made with the dead. This is well documented fact, which science is still trying find the scientific explanation. Watch discovery and history channel, and also check out this website:

http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html

manmustwac:
Do any of you guys remember what you were doing 10 years before your parents concieved? I guess not. So what makes you think that you will even know where you will be 10 years after you die. When you have no brain no memory no mind no thoughts you return to nothing. You came from dust so u return to dust. Simple.

I have heard this line of argument so many times, but it doesn't make sense. The fact that you don't remember your existence at a particular moment does not mean that you did not exist at that particular moment.

There has been people who had a Concussion that made them forget everything about themselves. Concussions can make people even forget their names, who they where, their children, Parents, thier house, age and etc; does this mean that they never existed. There are people who after such a Concussion, live the rest of their lives without ever remembering anything that happened before the concussion. This is a well known medical condition, and it is well documented in America.

Therefore absence of memory does not mean absence of existence. That argument does not hold water at all, even scientifically it makes no sense.

Reasearch on "Concussions" and "brain injuries". Such conditions can also cause a total memory loss. Memory and existence are two different things. Absence of memory does not mean absence of existence.

The fact that you do not remember what you were doing 10 years before you were born does not mean that you weren't in existence 10 years before you were born.

Thanks.

seeklove:
@justcool
i am still waiting to see why the likes of Hitler and Nazism was found among the poeple "who are spiritually developed enough to receive Abd-ru-shin. And in an environment that will allow Him to fulfill His task."
M_nwankwo please answere, or is Justcool wrong?

@seeklove.
You have the answer already, only that you have not drawn the connection. Like I said earlier, the Germans were specially prepared for the reception of the Grail Message. Even their language was carefully guided and prepared until it flourished to a language good enough to convey the truth. In a way, one can say that they were chosen. But this being chosen has nothing to do with favoritism. People are chosen based on their development, God do not chose people based on favoritism, He chooses only people who posses the necessary soil for the mission. Thus at the time that the messager was ready to incarnate, the Germans provided the most suitable soil for His incarnation.

But  darkness, always struggle against Truth bringers, and always try to make their mission impossible. Thus even prior to His incarnation, darkness already knew the people that will provide the bridge for His incarnation. And in its(darkness) quest to keep humans enslaved, darkness will approach such a people and try to cut them off from their development. And finally use them(the people) to fight against the Truth bringer.

Thus if you look beyond the outward physical circumstances and look into the spiritual situation, you will undersatand that the Germans at that time stood under a great pressure. In their midst, a light happening was about to take place, and as a result, among them darkness exacted its greatest strength -- to lull them to sleep so that they will not recognise the Truth bringer. One can say that they stood in between the Light and the darkness, thus they can be likened to an arena for war. God cannot take away our freewill and make us only listen to the Light. Neither can darkness take away our free will. The only thing God can do is to give us or show us His volition or His will, we are left to decided wheather to obey it or not. At the same time darkness also approaches humans and send them its volition. It is left for the human to decided which volition to obey.

You will recognise the correctness of this explanation if you look around you. History shows it clearly enough. Consider theses things: (1)Hitler's rise to power, (2)his hatred for the Jews, (3)the Nazi party and what they stood for, (4)the Nazi party's struggle against Abd-ru-shin. All these are the outward forms of a great spiritual battle. I will give you a food for thought-- have you ever wondered why the Nazi arrested Abd-ru-shin, stopped His writings and had Him under surveillance until His departure from the earth. For a long time in Germany, during the Nazi regime, the Grail Message was banned. Now why did a political party fight so much against a book or Abd-ru-shin who had neither any political inclination nor intention. Why would a regime fighting a very serious war spend so much energy on just one man(Abd-ru-shin) who writes only about God and spirituality? Does this make sense? It only makes sense when one recognises the spiritual motivations behind scene. Some would say that perhaps Hitler was an atheist who didn't believe in spirituality. But this is not the case, since Hitler was s strong allay of the catholics.

It is similar to what happened in the time of Christ, the Jews who were the most spiritually developed, were chosen and prepared for the reception of the son of God. While God was making his preparation, Lucifer(darkness) was also making his. The battle field was the Jews. Christ carefully chose 12 men who He instructed daily, they were His closest associates. Now in the light of my explanation you can also now ensage that those 12 men were under enormous pressure. Lucifer exacted his strongest attack on them, in order to lull them to sleep or use them to harm Jesus. The puzzle now clears about the case of Judas. People often wondered why Judas(a man specially chosen by Christ) could do such a terrible thing. The answer is that even though Judas had all that it takes to be an apostle, he still had a free will which Christ cannot take away from him. Judas gave in to the volition of Lucifer who was always trying to win the apostles.

Being spiritually developed does not mean that the person can no longer do evil. As long as you are on earth, evil volition can always approach you, but it remains with you to dispel them or give in to them. You have the free will. Only in Paradise will we be in an environment completely rid of darkness and its evil volition. Thus a spiritually matured person  has a responsibility to exact himself spiritually every moment, in order to remain at his high spiritual postion. Once he slacks in his spiritual exaction, darkness can win him over.

Now put it all together. The Germans at that time provided the best soil for the incarnation of Abd-ru-shin. Darkness in its quest to rub mankind of this help exacted its strongest attack against the Germans. Darkness succeeded in dragging them down through its agent or representative--Hitler. But in all serious struggles between light and darkness, Light always wins. In this case too the light won! Despite all struggle against it. The message was successfully brought to mankind, today it is not banned in any part of the world and anybody is wellcome to examine it.

Today there is no nation that can be called the most spiritually advanced. In all nations of the world, there both spiritually advanced people and spiritually retarded people. The earth today is not what it used to be, for today we stand in judgement of God which speeds up everything. Some are speedily heading towards distruction, while others are speedily heading towards salvation. Spiritually advanced people can be found in almost all countries of the world; because, today the Truth is made available to all mankind. Any body who lives by it will in a shorter time achieve a spiritual advancement that would have taken him centuries to achieve. People are not spiritually advanced based on their nationality or race. Only spiritual movement and recognition brings about spiritual advancement. A people that were advanced a few centuries ago, may not necessarily remain so today. Once they slack in their advancement, they will start moving downhill, for there is no stagnation in the spiritual life.

You now see how ridiculous it is to attack my assertion about the Germans as being spiritually advanced then, just because of a few experiences with a few Germans of today.  

I hope this helps, if there is any part not clear enough please bring it to my attention.
Renaming Blessed.

@ Pastor AIO

Pastor AIO:
I don't believe for an instance that baloney that was said on another thread about Abdrushin incarnating amongst the German people because they were the most spiritually advanced humans to receive his message. Whoever said that doesn't know German people. Don't forget where two world wars came from not to mention the worst kind of nationalism (nazi) plus a generally cold and unsentimental temperament that values might and power above all else. In fact I think that statement is so typical of a german with the notion of racial superiority etc. God can talk to anybody anywhere and race doesn't have anything to do with it.

I believe that in the above post of yours you were referring to the statement that I made on the following thread: thread.https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=147092.msg2666749#msg2666749

Well this is what I said:
"His incarnations was not compelled by any karma. In His case, as in the case of many prophets, He was sent by God for the benefit of the erring mankind. He incarnates among the people who are spiritually developed enough to receive him. And in an environment that will allow Him to fulfill His task."

And I stand by what I said! Your assetion that the Germans are bad is completely false, biased, and based on ignorance. Also your description of their temperance is totally false.

You mentioned the two world wars and Nazism, and try to use them to justify your assertion on Germans. There is no need clarifying further for you. Those things that you mentioned actually shows the correctness of my explanation. But I know that you cannot see it, neither will I throw light any light on it for you, since your apt to call my post baloney.

@Aragon5000
I made it clear, in my earlier post, that I think Rev. King is an impostor or a false prophet. I only pointed out that it is possible for one to be cured of any disease. I also pointed out that perhaps the story was false because Rev. King may not have been able to healed an AIDS victim because he is an impostor.


I only pointed out this because in your initial post it's not clear what you are quarrelling about. You didn't specify whether you are against Rev King being referred to as "His Holiness," or whether you are against the idea of somebody being healed by faith.


If you are quarreling about the guy calling Rev King "His Holiness," then you are justified. I agree with you that the man should not be referred to as such.

@poster
I am not here to defend Dr king who personally I think is an impostor(false prophet), neither am I here to defend Chucksabu but the issue of being cured of AIDS is very possible. Now, I am not saying that rev. King did it, neither am I saying that he can do it.
All I am saying is that it is possible to be cured of AIDS by faith and Prayer. I have witnessed such.
However, i do acknowledge that most of such claims, perhaps even the one above, are false; but the possibility of such healings exist.

Dear pilgrim 1
Thanks again.
First of all, ABD-RU-SHIN did not write the Grail Message in English. He wrote it in German. The English version is only a translation which can only render an approximate meaning of the original German version.

Like I said earlier, He did not draw from the Bible; He drew from God. Do you believe that God knows everything that has ever happened? If so, the He(God) can also reveal it to somebody.

If Abd-ru-shin's quotes of Jesus's sayings resemble KJV. Then perharps, KJV is the most accurate translation.

My dear, I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am only being honest, I am only bringing to your notice the possibility that one can witness and report an event that was already reported in the Bible without drawing from the Bible.

If Abd-ru-shin drew from the Bible then all His interpretations will be in accord with Biblical interpretation, but this is not so. Also re-read the Ten commandments of God as Abd-ru-shin passed it down, you will see that it is not exactly the way the Bible passed it down. I will give an example:

In the Biblical ten commandments we read:

"Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you."(Deuteronomy 5: 16)

See, in the bible this commandment to directed to children to honor their father and mother. But in Abd-ru-shin's report or passdown of the commandment it is also directed to the Parents and not just the children. In Abd-ru-shin passed it down as simply:

"THOU SHALT HONOR FATHER AND MOTHER !"

In Abd-ru-shin's explanation, the commandment is not just directed to children. It is also directed to the parents to honor their role as Parents. The concept of "father" and "mother" should be honored thus the father should honnor his role as a father by being responsible father. The mother shall also honnor her role as a mother. And when parents meet this requirement, the children should honnor them.

Read Abd-ru-shin's explanation:
http://www.poznanie.sk/knowledge/religion/ten-commandments-of-god-04.php

You see the difference?

I only wish to make you understand that it is possible to witness the events described in the Bible without even ever knowing that the Bible exist. God who has recorded all thing can reveal it to you. And you can render you own account based on what you draw from God and not the Bible. You can also draw from your personal experience, if you were there when it happened.

As long as you understand this fact. The rest is up to you. You can decide that Abd-ru-shin draw from the bible; this is will be your personal decision.  But remember that you are making an accusation. You can also decide that He draw from God.

The consequence of your decision remains with you.

pilgrim.1:
@justcool,

Just out of curiosity, could I ask you pointedly: do YOU believe in the Bible?

I have already answered this question. The Bible is a collection of scriptures and personal letters that the apostles wrote to various churches. It contains the truth is fragments, i.e. the first gospel was written many years after the departure of Jesus. Thus it was told from memory and what is told from memory after many years cannever be accurate in all details.

Apart from the fact that no human being can render or replicate the TRUTH exactly as Jesus did. Humans can only give as much as their spirits was able to receive. The TRUTH in Its pure form can only come from God. That's why Jesus had to come and that's why it was reserved for the son of man. Even under inspiration man cannever be perfect. An imperfect being can never passdown the perfect TRUTH. Paul clearly admitted the imperfection of his prophecies and knowledge and admonished the reader to do away with his imperfect teachings when that which is perfect comes:

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." (1 Corinthians 13:10) (King James Version)

In the gospel we are also made to understand that the scriptures cannot offer us eternal life, which we can only receive by living in accord with the TRUTH(the original words of Jesus).

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
(John 5:39)(new American standard Bible version.)

The scriptures at best could only prophecy or bear witness to the TRUTH.

All these considered, then scriptural worship is wrong! I do not believe that the Bible which contains the Truth only in parts is the eternal TRUTH or the word of GOD. Like all religious scriptures, the Bible contains the truth in parts and not in all things.

I do not believe in the Bible in all things.

[size=16pt]I believe only in GOD.[/size]

Thanks