₦airaland Forum

iblawi:
Thanks bro for the video.

Rooivalk has never done this since the day it was designed.

Am sure they didn't even stimulate such kind of attacks

Damn, you're cold!

jln115:
better than the Rooivalk? How?

Go cry along with your "very distant 5th place" Attack helicopter.

iblawi:
I guess it is bro. The most widely used attack helicopter suddenly became a transport helicopter because it has secondary role.

what we all know as FLYING TANK is now FLYING IFV.

, In the short time I've been here as a Nairaland member, I've read so many weird things people say all because of national pride.


The South-Africans immediately converted the MI-24 to a transport helicopter.

iblawi:
I thought Egypt was about getting KA-50?

I believe Rooivalk should be 5th not 4th.

You are correct. Egypt would soon take delivery of KA-52 attack helicopters. This moves the Rooivalk to a very distant 5th position.

MikeCZA:
The primary role of aircraft like Apache, Rooivalk, Z-10 etc is to conduct airstrikes.

Analogy: Main battle tanks and Infantry fighting vehicles.

The role of tanks is to provide direct fire.

Infantry fighting vehicles carry troops to the battle and provide fire support.

Infantry fighting vehicles can offer some of the capabilities offered by tanks but will lack in areas such armour protection, fire power etc.

END!


The Hind design philosophy is similar to Infantry fighting vehicles by carrying troops then unlike utility helicopters or APCs which will retreat back from the front line. The Hind will drop it's payload and continue the supporting the troops.

This characteristic means the aircraft silhouette is increased.

Mi-28 is a dedicated attack helicopter the inclusion of a small space for personnel doesn't change that. Similar to the Merkeva main battle tank it has a small compartment for personnel that doesn't mean the tank is an IFV.

Performance!

South Africa during the so called boarder war operated helicopters in areas with an average height at times of 1000m+ above sea-level. This places restrictions on the capabilities of helicopters. In fact the Super frelon which was larger than the Puma was out performed by later's latest at the time.

The Puma being able to carry far heavier payloads in those conditions conditions than the Frelon. Today the Oryx still out performs lastest helicopters like the Cougar in those conditions.

In those conditions the Rooivalk out performs the Hind. It isn't as agile.

Armament:

The Denel helicopter carries heavier payload.

Chin mounted cannon: F2 20×139mm gun firing a longer round with a higher muzzle velocity compared to the twin barrel Gsh-23 23×115mm gun on the hind. Longer range!

16 Air to ground missiles can be carried!

More Rubbish!


The MI-24 is unofficially known as the Flying Tank, not a flying IFV.


Unlike an IFV, the MI-24 carries 8 troops as a secondary role, not a primary role. It is a gunship, an attack helicopter as it's primary role.


The MI-35 is the world's most heavily armed, most heavily armoured attack helicopter. It is a Tank killer, designed to support the SU-25 in combat.

I'm not referring to largeness of any helicopter. The stats show the MI-35m produces more power than the Rooivalk. The Rooivalk cannot magically have a better performance. You can't cheat physics.

The Rooivalk carries a weak 20mm gun with an effective range of only 2 Km. While the MI-35m carries a twin barrel 23mm with an over 5km effective firing range.


The MI-35m can also carry 16 Air-to-ground missiles. Has the latest navigational suite, target sight system, location range finder and the latest laser range finder.


The fact is, the MI-35m, MI-28NE and the Apache attack helicopters are currently by a long shot the most advanced helicopters in Africa. The Rooivalk comes in at a very distant 4th.

The MI-35m is significantly better than the Rooivalk, and as African defence enthusiasts, we(Nigerians) are extremely glad we possess an attack helicopter that has no match in sub-Saharan Africa.

nemesis2u:
MI28 has space for 3 extra men , but point is these space is not normally utilized.

this provision was made for a specific purpose that is for combat search and rescue operations (CSAR)

MI28 is a dedicated attack helicopter , it will go where even MI35 wont venture .

so if a aircrew is shot down over hostile territory where the enemy has considerable ground/air defence assets , then the MI28 will fly in as ATTACK HELICOPTER but with the secondary role of CSAR , it will stuff the rescued aircrew upto 3 into the hatch specifically designed for the purpose .

however with the additional men it will have to shed some of its weapons loads to make up for the additional weight. most probably one MI28 will act in CSAR role while other MI28s will provide cover / escort / scout roles in heavily threat / defended areas

Dude, it doesn't matter what the space is there for. The fact is the MI-28 can carry 5 soldiers. So according to your widely hilarious descriptions, it is not a dedicated attack helicopter.


The Conflict in Syria simply proves otherwise. The MI-35 carries out most of the combat sorties in an active combat zone with enemies known to possess Manpads.

When the Russian Sukhoi Su-24 "Fencer" bomber was shot down in Syria. The Russians sent in an MI-8 to retrieve the pilots and an MI-24 for escort/cover/scout in a contested hostile airspace. Again, this scenario blows away your assertions.

nemesis2u:
where did i say that ?

not every country can afford dedicated AH, so they will make best use of what they have.

MI35 is fitted for and carries ATGMS/AAMs but MI35 is not optimized for dedicated attack helicopter roles.

if i don't have a dedicated AH , then i will use my MI35 for DEAD missions but my chances of achieving my mission goals will be comparatively less than while using a dedicated attack helicopter for the same mission.

parameter is know as mission success rate , it is used for war gaming stimulation / pre mission planning

same reason why the Russians have MI28 and KA series helicopters in the primary role of dedicated attack helicopter .

even tucanos carry PGMS , AAMs etc so why buy dedicated fighters like F16 SU30 ETC , i hope u see my point and ur flawed reasoning .

also what ever improvements r made to a platform is still restricted/dictated by the baseline design (with few exceptions where there r deep redesigns)

What sort of a silly comparison are you making with the Tucano? Does the Tucano produce 27,560 lbf of power from it's engine?



The Rooivalk produces 1,904 shp of power from each engine, while the MI-35m produces 2 200 hp of power from one of it's 2 engines. The MI-35m produces more power than the Rooivalk.


There is nothing like a dedicated attack role. The MI-35m is an attack helicopter just like the Rooivalk, MI-28, KA-52, Apache, Euro Tiger. It can perform all the roles these helicopters can perform and is significantly better than the Rooivalk.


The Russians in Syria use the MI-35m/MI-24 for over 65% of their combat missions. Despite having KA-52's and MI-28s deployed.

Improvements made in the MI-35m vastly improves the capabilities of the helicopter. This is why the Venezuelan Air Force also went for the MI-35m.


I'm sorry, but you're making no reasonable point.

rugged7:
Captain Victor Ugochukwu Ulasi. Medical doctor. Graduate of UNN. Husband and father of 3. Killed by Boko Haram in Yobe on Sat
RIP

RIP Captain.

Nigerian infantry rifles

So, what then is Osibanjo's role as Vice-President of Nigeria?
The Senate President seems much more powerful than him, as Vice-Presidents, Atiku, Namadi Sambo were more powerful than him.

.

nemesis2u:
i would use Rooivalk for destruction of Enemy Air Defenses (DEAD) missions , high intensity Counter Surface Force Operations , air defense against helicopters and UAVs, high altitude warfare , recon/scout role

Sunday

And who says the MI-35M can't conduct DEAD and SEAD missions, you? The MI-35M carries ATGMs and Anti-Air missiles. It is faster, heavier, proven and an advanced combat system.

Improvements have been made in the MI-35m which include main and tail rotor improvements for it to operate effectively in Mountainous and high altitude environments. Afghan helos operate in those environments without incidence.

Nigerian Air Force

TrueHeart365:
you seem to me like someone looking for an excuse to be wrong.

i won't bother after this. so do us a favor and go through this article cos i don't understand how a "dedicated" AH will sound strange to someone who claims military knowledge.


"The Russian Army received their first Mi-28Ns in 2006 as a replacement for their aging Mi-24 Hinds in the dedicated attack role."


"Interestingly enough, despite its classification of "attack helicopter", the Mi-28 Havoc features a three-person passenger compartment just aft of the main cockpit (similar to the larger Cold War-era Mil Mi-24 "Hind" series helicopters). However, this compartment is intended moreso as a rescue feature for downed airmen than for the transporting armed combatants into battle"
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=156

let's not derail this thread

Okay, your article clearly states the Russians use the MI-24 in the dedicated attack role, and are now only been replaced in that role by the MI-28.


However, all through today, you have been telling us the MI-24 is not a dedicated attack helicopter.

You have only ended up contradicting yourself. The article also doesn't mention the Russians have been buying new build MI-35m helicopters also.

The fact about the matter is the MI-28 which has a crew of 2 men, can still carry 3 additional soldiers . Your own article proves this. 5 men in all.

My question remains, what then is the MI-28?

You have proven to be unable to answer this little question.

TrueHeart365:
so in your narrative you will compare f-7 to su-30, or f-15 to f-22?

or mi-35 to apache?

funny guy.

Dude, that's not what he meant. He compared an SU-30 and an F-15, not with an F-7.

TrueHeart365:
if you read my comment well i believe i used the word "less" manoeuvrable.

yes, they have their advantages which puts them in their separate class (mind you, mi-35 only has the adbantage of troop transport and nothing more)

i don't care what the rooivalk has done, what i'm saying is the comparison is wrong. so you would say since the hind has seen more combat than all the western attack helicopters, it makes it better?

sometimes the way you guys argue is something else

Dude, you're simply going round in circles. Answer this, the MI-28 Attack Helicopter can carry 3 additional personnel/soldiers, so what is it?

MikeCZA:
From your bedroom network enabled command centre?


Using a Battalion support weapon at the section level? Not even at company level.

Are we in the future? Soldiers now have exoskeletons?

Do you know what a squad is?

Every squad in the Nigerian army will carry and run around with an AGL!

Dum.....b..st thing I have heard since augubugubu.

Who is augubugubu?

You should know the distinction, I was referring to the handheld grenade launcher at squad level and AGL at section or company level.

Squads carry the MGL in Nigeria. I'm asking how effective would a hand held 20mm be, when a soldier can simply call in a 23mm or 14.5mm for fire suppression?

TrueHeart365:
NO!!! it bloody hell isn't a dedicated attack helicopter. as an airforce officer this is something you should know.

the russians prefer the mi-35m in syria because it serves as troop transport for SF insertion. plus, they are fighting rebel groups with less sophistication. what do you need a ka-50 for?

their preference for it doesn't change it's role. it remains a multi-role AH with lots of disadvantages over a dedicated AH.

hence, my earlier comment of rooivalk and mi-35 not belonging to the same class.

bro, you sure sey you dey airforce truly. i find this your argument funny.

I'm sorry Sir, you probably got me confused for someone else. I'm a 400 level Engineering student, i never said i was in the Air Force.


The MI-28 can also carry Special Forces. 2 units can deliver a team comprising of Six (6) commandos. Does this mean the MI-28 isn't a "dedicated" attack helicopter? Or whatever that term dedicated means?


No bro, the Russians use Hip's for SF transport, while the President S system on the Hip's and MI-35/28/KA-52 provide cover.

The rebels in Syria have advanced Surface to Air missiles, which are shoulder fired. This is a credible threat, I believe.


I'm sorry but the facts on the ground provide adequate evidence which shows you are very wrong. In an active combat zone which Syria is, with parties known to have SAMs and Anti-Air Artillery, the Russians use MI-35 Attack helicopters for at-least 65% of their combat sorties. This is a fact, not the comments you are making.

MikeCZA:
Show me a 23mm hand held weapon system!

That can be utilized down at the squad level!

Isn't it better to deploy an AGL with a blast radius of 10 meters at squad level, then call in fire support from a 23mm Infantry Support Vehicle.


Don't you lose that area effect with a hand held 20mm weapon?

Remember you can fire at an effective range of between 2 - 4 KM with a grenade launcher. Of course much lesser with a hand held one.

I don't quite get the benefit of having a 20mm at squad level?

Patchesagain:
Because the Mi-35 is cheaper

Your article clearly states upgraded MI-24s. I'm saying the Russians are buying more and more new build MI-35m's. Most of the attack helicopter combat sorties in Syria are carried out by MI-24/MI-35m helicopters.


My point has been that all of them are attack helicopters. The MI-24 carrying a small load doesn't negate this fact. The MI-28 can also carry 3 extra men, does this mean it's not a dedicated attack helicopter, like some of you gentlemen would like to claim?

MikeCZA:
Inkuzi! A weapon if introduced into service with the SA army stands a chance to do what the Y2 MGL did to single grenade launchers!

Expanding sections?

Adds more fire power!

2iCs in the future might have no poor machine gunners to scream at?: Introduction of highly accurate fire/Specialists.

Isn't the Inkuzi basically a 20mm? Why the whole hysteria and what's so special about it besides been a 20mm?

What also makes it different from the 23mm already deployed in the fire support role by multiple armies?

TrueHeart365:
which makes it heavier ( slow speed) and less maneuverable than the rooivalk.

why do you think the russians developed the mi-28 and ka-50.

this argument is baseless and abeg let's post on topic.

this is not the who has a bigger d1ck in africa thread

some research won't do you any harm before commenting

"A Russian Mil Mi-28N. The Mil Mi-28 along with the Ka-50 represented the first dedicated attack helicopter of the Soviet Air Forces in the 1980s."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_helicopter

Dude, anybody can edit Wikipedia. Even a not so smart individual like yourself.


Like i stated previously, your comments make no sense. With the KA-50 and MI-28, yet Russian Aerospace Forces (VAKS) continue to buy additional MI-35M's. Both the KA-50 and MI-28 were developed for a number of reasons, all of them are attack helicopters.

TrueHeart365:
but seriously, some Nigerians here need to behave abeg.

no be everything be quarrel. how can you compare mi-35 to rooivalk.

they are not of the same class abeg.

one is a dedicated AH and the other isn't

This comment makes no sense. They are both AH's, nothing un dedicated about any. The fact the MI-35m carries a small amount of soldiers doesn't mean it's not an AH.

They are both of the same class of heavy attack helicopters.

TrueHeart365:
airforce chief inspecting an alpha jet in hanger

I'm sure the Air Force wouldn't just retire the Alpha Jets like that when it's time to go. A proper ceremony has to be held for the venerable Trainer/Light Attack jet.

From Sierra-Leone, Liberia, Mali, Niger and Nigeria NAF "dodo birds" have served exemplarily.

Oga Henry shared this photo sometime in 2016, stating that it could be a Nigerian MI-35m. I guess we are about to find out if he guessed right.

Related MI-35m cockpit

Nigerian Air Force

Nigerian Air Force assets deployed in support of operation Lafiya Dole in Maiduguri, Borno state.

-I can spot the NAF's MI-17 which was weaponised and upgraded in Nigeria. Good job to the Air Force.

- A C-130

- NAF Agusta A109

- Alpha jet

And MI-24v

GreenandGold:
It seems like Paramount Group looses again

I believe Paramount Group partners with Damen. So the IPV is also a win for Paramount. To every person watching, the process is so slow, I understand cost is a major factor, but buying 1 or 2 units a year would have been far better.

frumentius:
In the absence of Henry:

PLEASE TAKE YOUR INANE DISCUSSIONS ELSEWHERE!!!

I agree with this. Patchesagain, Iblawi and Tdayof, please can we let this lie, so we don't wreck the thread.