₦airaland Forum

EzioAuditore:
Not all, some. That is enough for one who wants the truth. That a book written 1400 can boast of such knowledge.

All thanks to creative interpretation.

KoloOyinbo:
Depends what you mean by all that matters.

It is merely an interesting fact to me that could hardly be otherwise.

I personally believe in a creator for reasons outlined previously and have heard nothing (despite many attempts by others, both here and elsewhere) to shake that belief in the slightest.

What is the compelling force for you to accept the supernatural?

KoloOyinbo:
Its not really a need as just a feeling that there must be something there.

Psychological or not it in no way impacts on the existence or non existence of a God.

By all means disbelieve if you must but do please realise that belief is ever bit as valid and intelligent as those who believe.

Even an extremist view?!!

EzioAuditore:
Lol! Alright mate! But I suggest you read my topic on embroylogy, and I will surely create more topics under the scientific miracles of the Quran! I hope you will be there to cringe. But for now, read my previous topics, be sure to let me know if you have any objections.

I doubt if I would be surprised at the suggestion that the Quran happens to include all the present modern scientific theories.

EzioAuditore:
I reiterate, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind".

I see no point in integrating science with Islam. Would accept Islam is blind and probably false for the lack of science?!

KoloOyinbo:
If God could be dismissed as false then philosophers would have done so thousands of years ago! Likewise if he could be proven true.

It cannot be proven either way and so is a matter for personal choice.

As for the 'told about God by clergymen' point. Ancient writings and cultures ALL had some spiritual element. Even tribe with little/no contact with the modern world have some concept of a God(s). It seems inherent in humans. So your statement seems flawed as currently expressed.

The inherent and ingrained concept of a creator (personal or impersonal) has been used as an argument for the existence of God but again a little thought will easily invalidate this.

The fact faith is needed to prop up one's needs for a God is not helpful either.

@the bolded, yes I think human belief in Gods is primarily psychological probably because we try to communicate with our environment and other entities outside ourselves

KoloOyinbo:
They/He/She/It COULD be (a) human creation(s). Or equally likely true! There is no way of testing and the greatest philosophers have sought for the answer to this for millennia, in vain.

A conclusion has not been found (and by the nature of things) cannot be found.

I see these issues in terms of claims. God does not come down to inform us of his existence, rather humans like the clergyman stand up to speak for him. They say things like God exists. People actually put these God ideas out to the public. Our familiarity with the concept of God develops from what we are told about Him. Now if you consider these claims untenable by virtue of being metaphysical statements, it dawns that they are inventions despite their familiarity. So making it easy to dismiss as false.

Why does Science have to validate Islam? Can't Islam stand on its own?!

EzioAuditore:
Both, mate. "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Hope you realize you are validating all other religions' usefulness to science.

EzioAuditore:
2:171 (Y. Ali) The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom.

17:72 (Y. Ali) But those who were blind in this world, will be blind in the hereafter, and most astray from the Path.

20:124 (Y. Ali) "But whosoever turns away from My Message, verily for him is a life narrowed down, and We shall raise him up blind on the Day of Judgment."

I dont see how wisdom and faith go hand in hand.

KoloOyinbo:
In the absence of ANY form of actual proof and given that proof for EITHER stand (existence of God or Non existence of God) cannot by the nature of things exist we are left with only FAITH.
Both stances are ridiculous so I choose what I personally believe to be the less ridiculous the EXISTENCE of God.
On a personal note the Universe works because of many scientific laws and values that if changed even by a miniscule amount would render the Universe unworkable. This is NOT a proof of God or indeed anything else but SEEMS to be to be a INDICATION.
Just vary one of the physical constants in the Universe and see what would happen!

That just tickles the imagination. It is either we have existence or not.

The idea of God itself is a loaded one. It is a metaphysical statement and since such statements are unprovable given volatility behind metaphysics, it is safe to conclude that Gods are human creations.

Scholar8200:
Deuteronomy 29:29," The secret things belong unto the Lord our GOD: but those things which are revealed belong to us. . . " There are mysteries revealed to us and there are some not revealed. The safest position to take is GOD's Omniscience as Scripture reveals it within each passage's context! Delusion starts when we apply one context's declaration to another context (sans the Leading of the Spirit), or when, in trying to gratify our limited, under-utilised intellect, we draw some inferences inconsistent with that which is revealed in scripture.

That would be the case if everyone in the world agrees the Bible is not a human creation with superhuman/supernatural knowledge. However since most of the people in the world, don't see anything superhuman about the Bible, it is taken for it is.

@ezioauditore

What did God create again?

Most Nigerian states have a broken tax system. If an income is not made, you are unable to spend.

Think about it, if there was no evil or unjustified violence or social injustice and unfairness, there wouldn't be the need to worship a God. God plays the role of an intervener, a hero, the deux ex machina; but before that role can be possible, some sort of calamity has to happen. The short summary is, dragon killers need dragons to kill.

justlove91:
Most people think omniscience is the ability of God to know 100% what every choice we will make yet they also claim we have free will, but if God can know 100% what your choice will be then it can't be called freewill again because you can not change it, it must come to pass. But this is an error!
The omniscience of God lies in is ability to know 100% what the CONSEQUENCES of your choice will be not necessarily knowing what your choice will be. To explain further, we've many alternatives and choices to make in life, now the omniscience of God permits Him to know all of the alternatives and the consequences of each one but God don't know 100% already what your what choice you will choose but no matter what choice you choose He knows the consequences already.
I keep repeating 100% because it's possible for God to guess or predict what your choice will be based on your pass choices just like we humans can also guess or predict what the choice of the other is going to be and be correct, it is just prediction and can change. But since God can guess your choice more perfectly than we can possibly do, we then think God knows already what our choice will be.
When you think of God omniscience in this sense then it becomes very complex because he has to know the consequences of every choice even the ones you are not going to choose whereas if He knows what you will choose already He only needs to know the consequences of this single choice.
This is the reason why many prophesies don't come to pass because every prophesy is a prediction of the future manifestation of which depends completely on human freewill, so if anybody makes a prophesy but didn't later come to pass, it doesn't mean he is a liar just that the human concerned with it's manifestation choose other choice.
Many Christians belief Jesus coming into earth has been known and sealed even before man sin because God knows they will sin, but this is false, it just that God knows every possible thing that is LIKELY to happen so already prepared for it, so nothing ever caught Him unaware.
NOTE: I don't believe in Jesus death to save humanity but His words.

What I could understand from the above is that God does not really know about the future with sufficient certainty rather God is aware of all the possible outcomes/consequences. This view I think you are trying to spread, is contrary to what most people hold about omniscience. Most people think God being omniscient means he knows as of certainty the future with absolute certainty not a possibility of alternate outcomes.

This thread ought to be revived.

vooks:
Your gospel is clearly unscriptural. Please let's stop competing at fiction and stick to the revealed Word.
Read Job 1 and and demonstrate to me Satan 'exploiting fear'. Which verse?

As far as I can read, Job was blessed with wealth,health and family and he FEARED God. Satan attempts to prove that his faithfulness is founded on his blessings. He proposes to remove the wealth to prove it. He is allowed to and the rest are calamities.

What part of this narrative has 'satan exploiting loophole'? Satan was ALLOWED to attack Job by God. The hedge was removed not because of his fears but INSPITE of his fear. If fear caused God to remove the hedge, why did Satan seek permission to attack him? And if he sought permission to attack him because of his fear, where do you find this recorded? Is it not part of your fertile imagination?
Read your Bible ooo

I completely support vooks' view. The book of Job should be considered as a complete book - a complete story.

ABDULADINO:
Satan cannot attack without the consent of man. His chief main weapon till date is FEAR

But he can attack with God's consent, right? Doesn't God's consent override man's consent of fear? In any case, I doubt if you believe man's fear can not be overpowered by God's will.

ABDULADINO:
Repetitions. Job himself admitted the cause of his calamity was fear not me.

but wasn't there a bet between God and Satan, through which wanted to test Job's faithfulness?

Mutuwa:
In the first instance there was a man (Adam) before the woman.Even if she came 10 seconds after his creation he is still over and above her in thoughts and knowledge,because he has seen what he has seen,in his own realm and medium of interpretations.
Men are govern by lines of intellect and wisdom,leaving women govern by curves of their emotions.BUT between knowledge and wisdom there is a difference which the woman maybe seemingly abreast in one due to her innate capacity to grasp and give positive interpretations to it,which is knowledge but certainly NOT wisdom.

And this observation was made on a large number of men and women from all circles of life? If it was not, then it is useless.

My belief is, it stems from the society's perception of women and men. Women often shape themselves into the stereotypical African woman with wild emotions and dull intellect.

ABDULADINO:
You made a false assertion that Job fear was never mentioned and i said it was but in this case a reverence for God.( Job 1:9).


You err not knowing the scripture. Job feared trouble or calamity( Job3:25-26).

A chief reason why he had to sacrifice continually to God after his sons had a feast thinking they had sinned( Job 1:5).

Truth be told Job alluded his riches to his own righteousness rather than God's grace and favour.

That's the strangeness of the book of Job. Ordinarily we believe righteousness, paying tithes, being in a good sync with God grants us open doors, favours, good tidings. However, bad things happen to good people and the book of Job tries to answer that. The problem with you, is you ignore God's purpose of testing Job and blame Job like his friends did.

ABDULADINO:
God did not caused the suffering of Job. Satan did and God allowed it. Job's unfounded fears led to his demise.

The story states, God ordered Satan to do so. God, for the purposes of the book of Job, is the total arbiter of all realms; both the spiritual and the physical. All causes within this realms descend from God and with his authority. Therefore these causes and Satan, are agents of God. The real cause is God while others are illusory because their causes are not efficient.

ABDULADINO:
Lol, i am not. I am just telling you what the scriptures says.For the thing that I fear comes upon me, and what I dread befalls me. ...Job 3:25 KJV - Job said it with his own mouth not his friends nor me.

You cannot please God without faith. Faith is the absence of fear.

Besides it was not Job's lack of faith that caused his sufferings. God did.

ABDULADINO:
Job chose fear not faith.Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Do you remember the accusations Job's friends made against him? If you did, you would know you are replicating their accusations.

ABDULADINO:
That book is deep. I don't agree God sends evil. God is good not evil. Man has a choice.

Did Job have the choice to select the State of his well-being?! No he did not.

Esdb3:
See how you killed yourself in your own words. Lemme quote you "Humans are generally selfish, it's our nature" now, christianity preaches morality.

Before I blast you, can you explain how christians are human haters.

Yes we are selfish! One requires selfishness survive.

Christianity bathes on the sermons of sin and the ugliness of man. Sin is firstly an invention, it exists as guilt and is as disturbing as any psychological illness in man's mind. It slowly eats it up. Finally it kills off the innate will for self determination

Joagbaje:
James 1:16-17 (KJV Strong's)
Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Hes a good God.

It does not say God does not likewise send evil from above. In Job, God sends both good and evil.

DeepSight:
I hope that you sha have some non-human experience that you will rely on to validate the true nature of reality.
Good luck with that.

We cannot help it but interpret reality through our lenses/perspective.

DeepSight:
And as human beings, will we ever experience something outside human experience?

Is there anything that can be argued, propounded or contended, by human beings which is outside human experience of reality?

Can you see the futility of that which you are advancing?

By stressing on human experience, I wanted to remind you how frail it is and its limits. You ought to be conscious of its limits, sweeping generalizations such as "Everything that begins must have a Cause" which you often make, ought to be given their necessary qualifications. The manner in which you held up 'commonly observable physical laws' as an irrefutable authority whereas it is human understanding of that physical phenomenon we call physical laws.

Emmalot121:
There is difference btw sending and permitting.

Such difference wouldn't be significant.

My point is clear, Job is a very clear example that your message is false. God sends evil to the way of good people like Job.