₦airaland Forum

You are correct to mention, reason is philosophical - and it is also correct, my view is a product of reason however, science sprung out of philosophy - and the foundation of philosophy is present in scientific inquiry through methodologies such as: "asking questions" and "hypothesis". The fine difference between philosophical reason and religious reason, is philosophy never concludes, but religion concludes.

Philosophical reason leads to an educated guess of uncertainty; religion defies that rule and turns reason or a guess into an absolute truth.

Philosophy is not neutral in the complete sense because it's got a divided opinion. Nevertheless, the body of philosophy is more appropriate for human reason, due to it's similarity with scientific approach.

Philosophy reasons about the unseen with objectivity, and religion reasons about the unseen with cognitive bias.

honesttalk21:
There's an important distinction here. I'm not using science to prove or explain the supernatural. I'm using reason to ask whether a claim to revelation is credible. That's a philosophical question, not a scientific one. Interestingly, your view that revelation is simply a human attempt to explain reality also comes from reason, not science. And philosophy isn't neutral either; every philosophical approach begins with its own assumptions. So we're both reasoning about the unseen, just arriving at different conclusions.

Let me complete the message in the image you posted:

"They both enjoyed getting dirty for one month; both the dirty one, and the one that proved clean".

###

MaxInDHouse:
Exactly!
I have something really precious to me that's missing in the life of faithless people that i'll never trade for anything not even worthless, hopeless and useless arguments! Matthew 7:6 compare to Titus 3:9
🙂

I think it's been established.

I'll end the discussion with this quote:

"It's better to be a child of light and intelligence, than be a child of darkness and crude nature."

MaxInDHouse:
Beginning from June 28th


To July 14th


For over 17 days!
I believe there's nothing further to discuss than respect each other's decision!🙂

The verification of human judgment is scientific. The fact that you rely on scientific methods to validate spiritual judgment, shows religion is not independent of science and require practical steps.

According to you, humans make judgments about truth every day; they weigh evidence, assess credibility, and decide what we have good reason to accept. In my own words: Human reasoning creates judgments, used to create meaning of the world and it's been extended to spirituality. The incompatibility here, is the usage of scientific methods to explain the supernatural. It's acceptable if humans use scientific methods to make everyday observable decisions, but certainly not for spiritual affairs that only require faith. Only Allah can explain true spirituality if it exist in the first place.

World views can be consistent and coherent in their respective explanations, but human bias and ideology always render popular opinions invalid. Consistency of truth does not always equal absolute truth, but rather an accepted truth, and there is a great distinction between both. In my opinion, philosophy is still a neutral school of thought that bridges spirituality and physicality in a way. In other words, I use both philosophy and science to establish a neutral ground in supernatural arguments.

honesttalk21:
I am convinced that verification doesn't come down to intuition alone. We all evaluate claims by looking at things like internal consistency, historical evidence, moral coherence, and whether they stand up to rational scrutiny. That's not subjective feeling; it's reasoned judgment. The same process applies to every worldview, including your own.

I am convicted that this connects to the point you raised earlier about only Allah being qualified to judge. There's an important distinction here. Asking whether someone truly speaks on Allah's behalf is not the same as deciding that person's eternal fate. We make judgments about truth every day. We weigh evidence, assess credibility, and decide what we have good reason to accept. Islam doesn't prohibit that. What it reserves for Allah alone is the final judgment of people, because only He knows every intention, circumstance, and consequence. Our role is to seek the truth as honestly as we can; Allah's role is to judge with perfect knowledge. Those are two very different things.

On your point about being neutral, I'm not sure that label really fits your position. From what you've said, you see meaning and moral obligation as grounded in human action rather than divine revelation, and you argue that what cannot be observed should not be explained beyond acknowledging its unknowability. Whether one agrees with those conclusions or not, they are still philosophical commitments about reality. That's why I don't think either of us is approaching this from a neutral position. We're both beginning with certain first principles and reasoning from them. The real question isn't who is neutral, but which worldview gives the most coherent, consistent, and satisfying account of existence, meaning, morality, and the reality we experience.m

You're ending the conversation so quickly?

Okay, but I was going to ask, what profession Jesus had in the Biblical times, but I guess you've called a stop to the conversation.

MaxInDHouse:
Finally you understood what billions around the world are blinded to!

There are just two religions:

Jehovah's Witnesses and Politics.
Billions are blinded because many still feels they are worshipers of the true God whereas they are blindly doing the will of the God of politics! 2Corinthians 4:4🙂


Of course politics is easy to relate with than true religion because politics has nothing to do with true faith you just have to put your trust in a fellow human believing he or she will make life better for you {Psalms 146:3-4} but we put our trust in the king who has successfully gathered his subjects from all tribes across the globe and made them one big and happy family of peace loving worshipers {Isaiah 2:2-4; Act 1:8} and as one family of faith we don't need to see a physical being after seeing his fine works! Hebrews 11:1

I really appreciate your time so far, thank you for a wonderful discussion!🙂

You are quite correct. Politics is my religion.

One must believe in something at least.

I'd rather believe in Politics that everybody can relate to than believe in an extremist true religion that people can hardly relate to.

MaxInDHouse:
That is not a way to spite rather telling you the bitter truth so if you keep on resisting faith in God i'm telling you that politics is your BELIEF so don't think you are free from BELIEFS because POLITICS is your RELIGION!🙂

I find something interesting... you mentioned revelations by prophets can be verified and rejected by believers and be determined true or false.

The question is: how can believers in flesh, verify or reject Allah's message through a prophet and distinguish between truth and falsehood?

Your response does not realistically explain the "how" without being imaginative. If believers use their intuition to judge Allah's message, it falls into subjectivity.

If anything or anyone must judge, it must be Allah as you defended in one of your earlier responses, and it should not be a human's judgment to determine Allah's truth in this regard.

To your question on where I stand on existence, meaning and morality: I hold onto the idea of neutrality to answer that.

To your question on where I stand on belief: I describe my view as scientific. Anything can exist on nothing because something you see is observed and easily explained while "nothing", is non-observable and should be treated as such, without further explanation. Meaning and moral obligation rest on human actions rather than supernatural explanation.

My coherent attempt still remain: revelation is simply a human attempt to explain reality.

honesttalk21:
From the Islamic perspective, a prophet is never the yardstick for Allah's integrity. Rather, the prophet's own claim is what must be examined. Islam does not ask people to believe in Allah simply because a man says so. It asks whether there is sufficient reason to conclude that the man is truly speaking on Allah's behalf. If that case fails, his claim is rejected. If it succeeds, then the authority belongs to Allah, not to the messenger. Nor does Allah revealing His message through human beings imply that Allah is human or a product of human imagination. It reflects a simple reality: human beings communicate most effectively through other human beings. The Qur'an itself addresses the objection of why Allah sent human messengers instead of angels. A human messenger can be observed, questioned, tested, and understood by the very people to whom he is sent.

The fact that prophets are human does not undermine revelation. Islam distinguishes between the humanity of the messenger and Allah's preservation of the message. A prophet is not believed because he is divine or free from ordinary human limitations, but because Allah safeguards what he is commissioned to convey. This also addresses the idea of a continuous trail of imaginative attempts. That description would make sense only if each prophet introduced an unrelated religion of his own. Islam claims the opposite. From Adam, to Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and finally Muhammad pbuh, the same core message was revealed as worship Allah alone and live in obedience to Him. Later revelations confirmed the earlier ones, while correcting what people had altered or forgotten. Whether one accepts that claim is another matter, but Islam presents itself as a continuous revelation, not a chain of disconnected human inventions.

Then describing Islam as merely a disciplinary course, I see it differently. Islam certainly contains discipline, but discipline is a means, not the goal. It is a complete way of life that brings together belief, worship, character, family, justice, compassion, knowledge, and spiritual growth. Its outward practices are meant to nurture an inward relationship with Allah. Without sincerity, love of Allah, remembrance of Him, and trust in Him, the rituals themselves lose their purpose. In that sense, Islam is not simply a system of rules. It is a way of living that seeks to unite the outward life with the inward heart.



One question I'd genuinely like to ask in return, since you've approached this discussion from a consistently skeptical perspective is what, in your view, ultimately explains existence, meaning, and morality if not a Creator?

From what you've said so far, you seem to question whether religion is of divine origin, whether prophets received revelation, and whether what we call revelation is simply a human attempt to explain reality. That's a coherent position, but I'm still not sure what you positively affirm.

Would you describe your view as agnostic, materialist, deist, or something else? And if there is no ultimate Creator or purpose behind existence, how do you explain why anything exists at all instead of nothing, and on what basis do meaning and moral obligation ultimately rest?

The funny part is, even with the influence your true religion has on you, you still deem it necessary to spite your challengers on this platform.

Is this what the true religion preaches?

I don't have a problem with it, infact I like more screenshots of my political write ups.

What I want to clarify, is your sainthood or deception, so that people can know if they should follow your true religion or not.


That by the way,


Since you've acknowledged JW members are involved in businesses, entertainment and sport industries, what makes you think your participation in any of them, makes you holy?

What's the difference between politics, business, entertainment and sports? Aren't competitive people and sinners there as well?

MaxInDHouse:
Jehovah's Witnesses engage in businesses, entertainment and sports but we don't allow racism or nationality to enter so instead of competitive spirit we see it all as avenues to get to knowing our brothers and sisters better.
None of them could lead to hatred, fighting and killing once we get rid of politics and racism we are all winners?🙂

What about business, entertainment, sports etc...?

MaxInDHouse:
Politics has been the problem from the beginning till today and people having interest in it will continue hating, fighting and killing one another!🙂

Noted.

MaxInDHouse:
Good so it's OK that you choose never to believe while my brothers and sisters throughout the earth believe.

Everything has benefits so continue enjoying the benefits of your unbelief while we continue to enjoy the benefits of our beliefs!🙂

You still write in parables.

This is a secular world where politics and government solves world problems.

People will continue thinking Devil is the cause of problems in the world because they think spiritually instead of practically.

People's personalities are the major causes of world problems.

MaxInDHouse:
I will respond whether you believe or not for the benefit of interested ones following the thread.

The destruction of Satan can't be fully justified until the case he raised is settled. Today 99.9999% of world's population still believe in POLITICS as they continue voting in and out different individuals that appeals to them whereas God wants people everywhere to see that there will never be any human government that could solve mankind's problems you people will continue to think of new system of government which will continue to fail.

But once God has gotten obedient humans in all the nations of the earth who are faithfully obeying His rules the destruction of rebellious creatures both Satan and humans will come! Matthew 24:14🙂

I appreciate that direct answer.

Now to answer your previous rebuttal that led to this answer, why is this idea of destroying the devil taking so long?

10,000 years of torment and no one in God's government has done anything...

To be frank with you, this is just an ideology and as long as it's an ideology, the idea of destroying the devil will continue till eternity without any visible result of it happening.

MaxInDHouse:
Satan is not his name that was the title given to him after he resisted his maker so if we are to talk about when he was created we will say he is as old as other angels except Michael (Jesus) who has been with his father longer than other angels. But if we are to talk about when he became Satan then that will be approximately 10,000 years or less.

That's what I've been justifying all along - my unbelief.

I didn't defend any religion. I only picked some of the claims they made as realistic and discarded the rest.

My justification remains: belief, God, ideas and theories are man-made thoughts, humans created and reinterpreted over many years.

People have been configured with these ideas through storytelling and people have adjusted to these ideas to the point that it's become a way of life - and so difficult to depart from them.

Once a child gets taught these ideas at a formative age, and grow up with an ideology, it becomes difficult to change that child.

That's why children believe God created the earth, and when they do grow up, they honestly believe God created the earth.

But when people make a quest, they get an opportunity to come out of their shells and explore religions and learn more - not just religion, but science as well.

MaxInDHouse:
I have shown you the reason why God established the true religion and how things have worked out so far i don't think there is anything left unless you just want to justify your unbelief!


So attack all and let each religion put up a defense for their faith not you doing it for them!🥱

Out of curiosity, how old is Satan now?

MaxInDHouse:
You haven't been following at all!😟

Earth is where God created for humans so it's our permanent abode! Psalms 37:29; 115:16

What God promised us is that all those making the planet uninhabitable will be destroyed. Psalms 37:9-11; Proverbs 2:20-22

So open your mind's eyes and see.
God never created heaven for humans so i'm not interested in going there!🥱


It's Jesus who drove Satan out of heaven when he started ruling he is the same person called Michael. Revelation 12:7-12
Satan will be completely destroyed that is when God will declare everlasting blessings on all inhabitants of planet earth. Revelation 21:3-4
So Satan won't be here forever in fact he knew he has short time remaining before his complete destruction!

On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time. Revelation 12:12

Satan is desperately seeking ways to make people hate people and destroy themselves through politics because he knew God is sending Jesus to kill him and all those following him!

Imagination can't unravel further Imagination, because yours is yet to be unraveled.

In my entire exchange, I've been on the offensive attacking all spiritual faith including yours.

MaxInDHouse:
That is why i said
"stop defending false religions"

I'm showing you how to unravel the lies false religions are using to blindfold people instead of you to call them out to come and defend their religion you are here making excuses for them!🥱

Fundamentally, why should a Prophet's claim to revelation and his teachings become a yardstick for Allah's integrity?

If a Prophet represents the image of Allah at all times, it safe to assume, Allah is an actual man himself or better still, a product of men's ideological creation for self purpose.

Allah is said not to faulter, but mere men faulter and are entrusted with Allah's word...

In a simplified sense, the concept of Allah cannot be convincing enough with a continuous trail of imaginative attempts.

In short: Islam is "only" a disciplinary course-study and not necessarily a spiritual religion in the actual sense in my candid opinion.

honesttalk21:
Again you move us closer to the real point of disagreement, and that's good. From the Islamic perspective, revelation doesn't replace reason or scientific inquiry, and it certainly doesn't ask us to confuse observation with imagination. When the Qur'an points to creation as a sign of Allah, it isn't saying the universe is itself a miracle in the technical sense. It's inviting us to reflect on the fact that the universe exists, follows consistent laws, and is understandable. From an Islamic perspective, those observations naturally lead us to ask whether they point beyond themselves to a Creator. That also answers the point about speculation. Saying the universe points to a Creator is reasoning from what we can observe. It isn't the same as claiming we've observed Paradise or the Hereafter. One is an inference from evidence before us, while the other depends on whether revelation is truly from Allah. They are different kinds of claims.

You also suggest that miracles establish only a messenger's image, not his credibility. From the Islamic perspective, the two cannot be separated. A miracle is not presented as a performance to impress people, but as a sign accompanying the claim that the message is from Allah. At the same time, Islam does not ask people to accept every extraordinary claim at face value. The claim is considered alongside the messenger's character, the consistency of his message, the nature of the sign itself, and whether the whole body of evidence points to a divine source. A sign is therefore part of the evidence, not the entire case.

This is why Islam doesn't ask anyone to believe in the Hereafter simply because they hope it's true. It first asks a more fundamental question as has Allah truly spoken through His messenger? If the answer is yes, then trusting what that messenger says about the unseen follows naturally. If the answer is no, then there is no reason to accept the claim.

Your last question, "Are mere men the Allah we speak of?" actually brings us back to that very point. Islam's answer has always been no. The Prophet pbuh is believed not because he was more than human, but because the evidence points to him as a man entrusted with a message that was not his own. In the end, that is where the discussion really rests. If his claim to revelation fails, Islam falls with it. If it stands, then what he teaches about the unseen is accepted not because a man imagined it, but because Allah revealed it through him.

Confidence is CERTAINTY. Believers trust a Perfect being would offer deserved salvation, but you further assume believers should continue to render trust services to a Supreme being regardless if the reward is reciprocated to them or not.

Even the good deeds of man are no absolute guarantee in your context, as Prophet Muhammed himself was not sure of Allah's predicted mercy.

Nevertheless, man must tow similar path of labor and good deeds and be expectant of nothing if ever so - and must continue to have faith in Allah.

Certainly, the expectation of Allah is a probability than an absolute declaration. It's 50/50 chance.

It's better one trusts one's instinct that is predictable than to trust a Perfection that is unpredictable.

honesttalk21:
Seemingly your question assumes Islam asks believers to live in doubt, but that's not quite the case. Islam teaches confidence in Allah's promise while encouraging humility about ourselves.
A believer trusts that Allah never breaks His promise, but also recognizes that no one can honestly claim to have done enough to deserve Paradise on their own. That isn't uncertainty about Allah. It's honesty about ourselves. So the balance Islam teaches is simple; place your confidence in Allah's mercy, not in your own deeds. That's not a gamble. It's the difference between trusting the One who judges perfectly and trusting yourself.

If any believer doesn't practise what the true religion preaches and is rejected by the true religion - the world will accept him.

This creates a pointer: If Jehovah's Witnesses' eternal place is earth, strong possibilities exist that the true God, may have rejected them and confined them to the earth till eternity.

Also, bear in mind that God threw Lucifer out of Heaven down the path of earth and Hell in eternal condemnation.

Now the same Lucifer (Satan), has two eternal home addresses; Hell and Earth.

How do you react?

MaxInDHouse:
GOD is the supreme being so whoever believes in God will surrender to God's judgement but if anyone refuses to do this it simply means he doesn't truly believe in God therefore the true religion that he practices shouldn't permit him to play any key role since he is not a believer.

That is the difference between true and false religion because in false religions such individuals are allowed to continue serving as bonafide members but in true religion such ones will be sanctioned showing he is spiritually sick hence all members are warned never to follow his footstep! Matthew 18:15-17, Romans 16:17; 2John 10-11🙂

That conviction is up to the said Religion to defend.

MaxInDHouse:
What hope?🙂

A religion that says God exists keeps on hating, fighting and killing themselves over issues they claim their God will settle/judge in the day of judgement.

So how do you convince any normal human that such people have hope?🥱

This is a classic piece of human nature vs morality.

If people's actions and a religion's teachings are related but not identical, it means there a exist a fine line between realism and spirituality. The relationship between both concepts is the "earth".

"Islam, in fact, discourages believers from becoming self assured about their own salvation" - is quoted from your submission. The moral question is:

"Why should believers of Allah be faithful and as well, be doubtful?" -

Even if all believers labor to secure salvation, their hard labor is likely to become a gamble at a casino of falsehood than an actual assurance of salvation.

honesttalk21:
People belonging to the same religion fighting each other does not, by itself, tell us whether that religion is true or false. Human beings often fail to live up to the very beliefs they claim to hold. History is full of conflicts not only between different religions, but also within the same religion, political movement, or even the same family. That says more about human nature than it does about the truth of a belief.

The same applies when comparing one religious community with another. One group may appear more peaceful than another at a given time, but that is a historical observation, not proof that its beliefs are true. People's actions and a religion's teachings are related, but they are not identical.

Islam, in fact, discourages believers from becoming self assured about their own salvation. The Prophet pbuh said, None of you will enter Paradise by his deeds alone. When asked if that included him, he replied, Not even me, unless Allah covers me with His mercy. The Qur'an also instructs him to say, I only follow what is revealed to me...(46:9). The point is not uncertainty about Allah's promises, but humility before Him. No one earns Paradise as a right or can place Allah in their debt.

At the same time, the Qur'an repeatedly commands faith, prayer, charity, honesty, patience, and every form of righteous living, while promising reward for those who strive. These are not contradictory ideas. Good deeds matter because Allah commands them and rewards them, but the reward itself remains an act of His mercy, not something He owes anyone.

So the real question is not whether every person who identifies with a religion consistently lives by its teachings. No community can honestly claim to live up to its teachings perfectly. The more important question is whether the religion itself is true and whether its teachings are sound. The shortcomings of its followers may tell us something about people, but they do not, by themselves, settle the truth of the faith they profess.

Knowledge is a complex archive of human thoughts be it reason, imagination, facts or revelation. Reason and revelation complement indeed, but the function of revelation is to fill gaps of knowledge, than provide a concrete filler. Reason of empiricism and observation, provides those concrete fillers.

The "observation world" serving as evidence of Allah's power is also a speculation that contradicts your earlier denial of speculation of Allah's promises. Declaring the earth as a sign of Allah's miracle, creates a confusion between an observed fact and illusion. It safer to assume no ownership claim of universal elements than be definite.

Miracles of God/Allah, establishes what I refer to as "image" of the messager, rather than his credibility. If faith rests upon the revelation of Allah, then it's an expectation called "faith". Establishing the revelation is achievable with the faithful, but the everlasting life which is a product of revelation, remain questionable, particularly, when the actual result is deemed a fallacy than a true manifestation afterward.

I agree, reason should not be replaced with blind faith, for reason, represents objectivity and blind faith only encourages, the promotion of false prophets.

Revelation should not compete with reason, but should complete it - is strong words of wisdom from your submission, however knowledge can never be completed nor replaced with imagination.

The question of if Allah has spoken, requires a question to answer it. The appropriate question would be, - "are mere men, the Allah we speak of?"

honesttalk21:
I think we've now moved from discussing what Islam teaches to a broader question of how human beings can know anything beyond empirical observation. That's an important distinction.

From the Islamic perspective, knowledge is not confined to what can be directly measured or observed. Even in everyday life, we accept many truths through reason, reliable testimony, and inference rather than personal experience. The Qur'an presents revelation and reason as complementary, not competing. It repeatedly invites us to reflect on the created world as signs pointing to the Creator, while making clear that the unseen cannot be reached through unaided human inquiry alone.

This is also where miracles fit into the Islamic worldview. They are not presented as irrational interruptions of nature but as divine signs authenticating Allah's messengers. Their purpose is not simply to inspire wonder but to establish that the message truly comes from Allah. Once that foundation is established, knowledge of realities beyond observation, such as resurrection, judgment, Paradise, Hell, and the Hereafter, is accepted because it comes from the One who knows them directly, not because human beings discovered them through speculation. The observable world itself is also a sign of Allah's power. Miracles are not the only signs. They uniquely authenticate His messengers, while creation continually points to its Creator.

At the same time, Islam does not encourage a continual search for miracles. The Prophet peace and blessings of Allah be upon him taught that his enduring miracle was the Qur'an itself. As he said, every prophet was given signs by which people believed, but what he was given was revelation from Allah, and he hoped thereby to have the greatest following on the Day of Resurrection. Not stating miracles weren't performed by him. In other words, miracles establish the credibility of the messenger. Enduring faith rests upon the revelation that follows.

So Islam does not ask people to replace reason with blind faith. Rather, it teaches that reason is indispensable but limited. It enables us to assess evidence, weigh testimony, and recognize truth, but it cannot independently answer every question about reality. Revelation does not compete with reason. It completes what reason, by itself, cannot reach.

I think this also identifies where our approaches differ. Your argument appears to begin by treating revelation as a product of human imagination unless there is sufficient reason to conclude otherwise. Islam begins with a different question. Does a claimed revelation bear the marks of a divine source? If it does, then what it says about the unseen is no longer human speculation but knowledge disclosed by the Creator. The real discussion, therefore, is not whether human reason alone can reach beyond the universe. We both agree it cannot. The question is whether Allah has truly spoken.

Belief in the Hereafter is not meant to diminish the value of life on earth. The Qur'an rejects that false choice. It commands believers to seek the Hereafter without neglecting their share of this world (28:77), to pray for good in this world and good in the Hereafter (2:201), and to pursue justice, knowledge, honest work, family, charity, and excellence in character. Earthly life is therefore not an obstacle to the Hereafter. It is the very arena in which faith is lived, character is formed, and our response to Allah is made manifest.

Don't get me wrong.

Both Religions or faith offer no evidence other than hope.

What I meant by claim, is if one Religion promotes for example, "peace" - then it will be supported - or if one promotes "respect of boundaries", it will be supported as well.

MaxInDHouse:
So what EVIDENCE does agnostics and Muslims have regarding life after death?

Note that Muhammad had no such evidence and agnostics said they aren't sure if God exists or not!🙂

On the contrary, I do not cover for Religions - but if a Religion makes a realistic claim, it will be supported.

The Matthew 28:18-19 you highlighted, suggest "passive-extremism" as you earlier condemned in Islam.

To rule over the world means, the use of force or fear tactics, to win disciples.

In the earlier times, "force" was the mantra of Christians as learnt from the Jew execution story.

Today, it's "fear tactics" . If you are not a Christian or a Muslim, either party would instill fear in you and pressure you into a belief.

More interestingly, you affirm JW members don't comment on political matters on platforms.

Not just that - your organization doesn't participate in social activities like parties, recitation of national anthems etcetera.

That's ideological-extremism, even though it affects no one and it's non of anyone's business.

Simple suggestion: participate in the politics and government of your supposed Kingdom, for that's the way to preserve it for the everlasting life.

No government, then no world, no everlasting life.

MaxInDHouse:
I showed you what Muhammad said yet you want to cover up for this FALSE RELIGION. Muhammad said there is no assurance for Muslims including himself so what CONFIDENCE do you want to give his followers?
Whether you believe or not Jesus said:

“All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations" Matthew 28:18-19

Guy abeg stop deceiving yourself!🥱


Regarding Jehovah's Witnesses Jesus said:

"They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world." John 17:16

You can search Nairaland to see if any member of Jehovah's Witnesses make any comment on the politics section.
We only hope in God's kingdom and that is the only government we preach about or in other words campaign for! Matthew 10:7

You are welcome!

I acknowledge the absolutism of Qur'an's truth. On a different account, the knowledge of God/Allah falls within our human judgment and understanding - and we are limited by nature to know what can be known.

Our scope of human reasoning doesn't extend beyond the universe therefore, any knowledge we create about the "beyond" becomes fantasy.

This isn't discrediting the legitimacy of Religion or God/Allah - rather, probing the quality of "human inquiry" and determining, if what's proffered as "universal truth", is true or false.

The Holy Books are sources of revelation of human imagination written as God's will. However, the Holy Books' knowledge doesn't extend beyond the earth - they do have details of the Hereafter as universal truth, but what humans see as evidence, is the earth and stars as documented in scriptures.

This is why believers easily attach miracles of God to what can be evidently seen (earth) than to abstractions that can't be seen, but hoped for (Heaven/,Paradise).

The path to the supposed Paradise, remain the Holy Books - but little do we know, the Books actually offer a short view lense of the entire universe and beyond, as understood in biblical proses.

It's understood, humans must believe in something - but reasonable belief is advised. Some may say, "It's better to stand for something than nothing" - but more concretely, I would suggest, "stand akimbo in the midst of several uncertainties".

In relation to "first principles" that you highlighted, the above submission, deconstructs the validity of religious principles and emphasis of resurrection, judgment, accountability, and a transformed existence.

Whilst you strongly uphold the morals and principles of the Hereafter using Islamic understanding, it's pertinent, that over-reliance on faith - do not permit a reduction in the quality of human living that free-will offers man-kind on earth for the ultimate sake of everlasting life.

As you have defended, Allah is not a God of coercion.

honesttalk21:
Well thank you but I am not in position to see myself as good. I think we've moved beyond simply defending positions and are now examining first principles, which is a more fruitful discussion.
From the Islamic perspective, I would not begin by assuming that everyone in the hereafter becomes part of a single, identical class of spirits. The Qur'an does not describe the afterlife in those terms. Rather, it emphasizes resurrection, judgment, accountability, and a transformed existence decreed by Allah. While that existence differs from earthly life, the Qur'an does not present it as dissolving all distinctions into one uniform spiritual nature.
Also, Allah's foreknowledge and decree should not be confused with coercion. His eternal knowledge encompasses every human choice, and nothing occurs outside his decree, yet the Qur'an consistently holds people responsible for what they freely choose. The test is therefore not for Allah to discover anything since he already knows all things but for his justice to be manifested through deeds that creatures themselves willingly perform. Divine knowledge explains why Allah's judgment is perfect; it does not negate the reality of moral responsibility.
For the same reason, the permanence of Paradise is not explained by its inhabitants becoming incapable of choice because they have become spirits. Rather, Allah has completed their trial, purified their hearts, removed every inclination toward sin and resentment, and promised them everlasting security. Their eternal obedience is therefore the fulfillment of Allah's perfect decree and justice, not the loss of meaningful personhood or the reduction of all beings to a single spiritual nature.

You've made a generalization of Islam. There are two classes of Muslim here in Nigeria; the flexible and rigid.

The flexible Muslims are accommodating, while the rigid Muslim are the religious extremists and the extremist terrorists respectively.

If Islam is picking up weapons, it's definitely the rigid members doing so.

Mohammed wasn't confident according to you, because his fate was uncertain. In my opinion, that was a good and safe judgment compared to the 21 century confidence of Christians and Muslims.

This is why I keep repeating, no one should be too sure of what they THINK of Heaven.

If it's going to rain tomorrow, you can't be too sure it will - It's better to remain tentative than confident over something you can't accurately measure or predict.

If I ask you if it's going to rain tomorrow Sunday, how confidently would you predict it without checking Google weather? And even if you do check Google, how accurate would it be?


Separately, do members of JW Organization vote on election days?

MaxInDHouse:
Now you have started lying again!😂
No Muslim can be confident of Islam because Muhammad himself who is the founder of the religion told them he doesn't know what Allah may choose to do with him so they should continue praying for him that's why all Muslims have continued praying for Muhammad, his family and disciples till today. Though due to shame they may not admit what Muhammad told them as his last statement but ask any Muslim why they always pray for Muhammad if they are truly CONFIDENT of their religion.
Agnostics don't even know what God says because the group always say they can't prove or disapprove the existence of God. So stop deceiving yourself!🥱


Despite all the evidences i've shown you from God's promises to how it's been fulfilling till today?
Guy you love deceiving yourself walahi talahi!😂
Different schools of thought have been saying they have knowledge about God and heaven yet they often pick up weapons against one another in the same religion or organization.
Please if you are not deceiving yourself how can you compare such people with Jehovah's Witnesses?
For your information God simply means the supreme being so if two people truly believe in someone as the supreme being can they pick up weapons against each other knowing fully well what the supreme one said about judging whoever is evil?
Whether Muslim or Agnostics or any other group you can think of politics always makes them hate, fight and kill their own members not to even talk of their neighbors.
So if they are truly CONFIDENT in what the SUPREME BEING says why are they still fighting and killing themselves?🥱

Good submission.

The nature of spirits certainly differ from the nature of humans. However, when humans cross the earth-line into eternity, they become spirit-converts and "equal" to all spirits existing.

Although, superiority of spiritual beings is a ranking order in the spiritual realm - still, that rule doesn't totally separate the nature of spirit-converts (former humans) from pre-existing spiritual beings already existing in eternal life.

Therefore, all spirits are similar in nature and deserve similar test in my philosophical opinion.

If my above submission is very well so, all eternal spirits may therefore, truly be the same kind afterward - and there may exist as well, a followed ill example of fore-spirit (Satan/Iblis) by sucessive spirits (former humans)

We defend the Paradise very well with background/historical biblical knowledge, but fail to update faith with current revelations of the true politics likely ongoing in Paradise, if any - that's if Paradise isn't already an imperfect extension of earth.

On the second part of your submission, I maintain a stance - the knowledge of God remain superior over free-will, only if God truly exist.

If God's manifestation is referenced to man-made inventions, the answers would differ - simply because, Man is "imperfect" and not all-knowing thus, man must continue to test inventions through trial and error.

However God's nature is different, for He is ascertained PERFECT. Therefore, God's creatures are within His Omnipotent Knowledge - He need not seek what is KNOWN, for it's imperfect men that do so.

As you have presented and defended, God is not seeking knowledge of His creations as you posit - He is allowing the nature of His creatures flourish on earth, through the power of free-will - for that way, they will be tested - according to you.

Rather, I differ by repositioning the argument to: "God is making a pawn out of His creatures to his advantage" - knowing well, seekers of His Kingdom (His creatures), will go astray while some, will walk the path of light - and yet punish those that walk through darkness, knowing well, He made them all that way.

Why condemn what you know is made faulty, when you can fix it and not judge it.

I welcome a rebuttal challenge on this, if you may...

honesttalk21:
I think we're getting closer, though I'd avoid calling the pre-Judgment phase limbo, since that's neither an Islamic concept nor Barzakh, which refers specifically to the state between death and resurrection (Qur'an 23:100). Iblis' rebellion occurred before humanity's earthly history unfolded and long before the final Judgment, during the period in which Allah tested His morally accountable creatures according to the roles He assigned them.
On your first question, the premise assumes that earthly life is the only valid form of trial. The Qur'an does not teach that. It does not subject every accountable creature to the same mode of testing; rather, each is tested according to its nature and responsibility. Humans are tested through earthly life with its desires, hardships, and mortality. Iblos, a jinn endowed with free choice (Qur'an 18:50) was tested through Allah's direct command to prostrate before Adam. His exalted position did not exempt him from trial; if anything, greater privilege carried greater accountability. The form of the test differed, but the principle remained the same. A morally accountable being confronted with Allah's command, whose response manifested obedience or rebellion.
This is not uniquely Islamic. Most Christian theology likewise holds that fallen angels were tested without first living an earthly life. So varying the form of the test according to the nature of the creature is a shared theological principle, not a uniquely Islamic explanation.
On your second question, Allah does not test because He lacks knowledge or confidence in His creation. His knowledge is perfect, complete, and eternal. The purpose of the test is to manifest His justice by bringing freely chosen actions into reality, so that reward and punishment rest upon deeds actually performed. Allah's foreknowledge does not compel anyone's choices; it means only that He knows them perfectly. As the Qur'an says He who created death and life to test you as to which of you is best in deed. (Qur'an 67:2) and Allah created the heavens and the earth in truth so that every soul may be recompensed for what it has earned, and they will not be wronged (Qur'an 45:22).

The same principle is found in most Christian theology: God's omniscience does not negate moral responsibility. Thus, this is not a difficulty unique to Islam but a consequence of affirming both God's perfect knowledge and genuine freedom. From the Islamic perspective, the test is not for Allah to learn anything. He already knows all things but for His justice to be fully manifest, so that every soul is judged by the choices it freely made.

Muslims, Atheist and Agnostics in this thread, have proven their religion one way or the other.

And they sound exactly like you, CONFIDENT.

This is why I keep repeating: how sure is your path?

And what if all "sacrifices" on earth lead to a blank life...?

Because, the writers of Holy Books, only received revelations here on earth - they never died and resurrected to bring forth evidence of eternal life.

The world is driven by ideas of eternal life; not the true fact.

Every religion believes in Heaven, but only ONE RELIGION will make it to that Heaven.

Or perhaps, there are many Heavens - one for each.

MaxInDHouse:
God promised His true worshipers:

They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore. Isaiah 2:4b

Will they be found in just a location?

God answered:

And many PEOPLES will go and say: Isaiah 2:3a

How are they going to achieve this?

At that time those who fear Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance was written before him for those fearing Jehovah and for those meditating on his name. Malachi 3:16

That's the reason why Jesus sent his true disciples Jehovah's Witnesses out to go and speak with people in their homes! Matthew 10:11-13

Ọmọ call any other religionist to come and use the scriptures to prove their religion is the truth nah! 2Timothy 2:15🥱

The promised Land has been called:

the land of Jews,
the Land of true Christians,
the Land of Abraham's people,
the Land of Mohammed's people and
the Land of unbelievers.

Every faith survives presently, including the Jewish faith.

No total condemnation of any faith on earth so far.

And no situation report of any eternal condemnation nor a revelation of the true eternal place for God's people; be it of God Almighty, or Almighty Allah or Buddha...

In essence, if condemnation is the punishment for unbelievers - how determined and ready are you to find out that your faith alongside others, have not followed the path of righteousness all along, but rather the path of condemnation, if any?

MaxInDHouse:
The true God didn't condemn the Jews as humans rather He condemned them as people deserving His holiness that is why they were displaced from the land God promised Abraham Isaac and Jacob. So both Jews and Samaritans can find other places to stay among the rest of mankind but it's the land God promised to give His own worshipers they don't deserve!


First of all religionists persecuting their fellow humans are not true Christians so withdraw that statement.
Secondly what God promised His true worshipers on the land He gave Abraham Isaac and Jacob is PEACE and SECURITY not WORLDLY RICHES.
Whatever JEHOVAH promises His own worshipers can't be achieved by any other people so worldly riches could be gotten by anyone and any race but as for what Jehovah promised it's only for His own true worshipers!

You present two phases of After-life, namely:

1. A state of Limbo which is the judgment phase before Paradise.

2. An actual destination called Paradise.

I suppose, Satan/Iblis was in the Limbo/Judgment phase.

If the above reinterpretation is correct, that clears the puzzling part in this initial argument.

The other argument leads to two new challenges, if I may:

1. Why was endowed Satan on trial with other Angels for an earthly life never lived - if the earthly life is the prerequisite for trial?

2. If Allah/God is Supreme, why would He (Allah/God) have little faith in his creations - and have them tested, if only He, sees yesterday and tomorrow?

honesttalk21:
Your challenge or conclusion assumes that calling it heaven means it must be identical to the eternal Paradise promised after the Day of Judgment. But the guarantee I'm defending isn't about the place; it's about the state of those who enter it.
Iblis fell while he was still under trial, with the ability to disobey. The Quran describes the people of Paradise differently: Allah removes whatever is in their hearts, grants them security, and says, They will never be made to leave it (Quran 15:48; 7:43). There is no example in the Quran of someone being purified, admitted into the final Paradise, and then falling.
Even Iblis' own request supports this distinction. He asked, Grant me respite until the Day they are resurrected (Quran 15:36). That only makes sense if the events surrounding his fall occurred before the final judgment. Had he already been in the post-judgment Paradise, asking for respite until the Resurrection would be meaningless.
So the issue isn't whether Iblis was in heaven. It's whether anyone falls after Allah has completed their judgment and admitted them into the eternal Paradise. The Quran presents no such case.

Why should the Jews be condemned for not simply abiding?

The persecution of Jews over the years was a capital infringement on human right.

Today, the Jews are doing quite well in business around the world as a result of the hostility towards them from Christians.

MaxInDHouse:
Well this is what the true God told their forefathers in the wilderness before He bought them into the promised land:

"'Now if you will strictly obey my voice and keep my covenant, you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples, for the whole earth belongs to me. You will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to say to the Israelites.” Exodus 19:5-6

After bringing them to the promised land Moses said to them:

For Jehovah your God is walking about within your camp to deliver you and to hand over your enemies to you, and your camp must be holy, so that he does not see anything indecent in you and turn away from accompanying you. Deuteronomy 23:14

So when they turned against Jesus God didn't just condemn the people rather He gave them another opportunity by allowing the few disciples of Jesus to bear witness to the Jews! Act 2:24-36

After hearing what Peter said that day over 3,000 Jews were stabbed in the heart with that message and they said to Peter:

“Men, brothers, what should we do?” Act 2:37

But their politicians insisted on turning against Jesus and whatever has to do with him {Act 4:18; 5:28} that is why till today the entire Jewish nation was condemned {Matthew 21:43; 23:37-38} unless any individual from among them repent and accept Jesus as Lord and Christ. Act 2:38

So that is why the true God is now using the nation that's producing the fruit expected of the Jews:
JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES!🙂

Hmm!

I can't blame the Jews for being greedy and selfish.

Everyone then, had the right to become whatever they wanted - and reject whatever didn't suit them.

Call it Sin or Worship of Money - everyone has a unique personality that can accept or reject any lifestyle, belief or religion.

MaxInDHouse:
They were filled with selfishness and greed!

God only used them as example of how people throughout the earth should be organized not that they would dominate other people but due to the fact that the Christ has been promised to be raised among them {Isaiah 9:6-7} their thoughts is driving towards dominating all the nations of the earth.
So when Jesus arrived as Christ they knew he was the promised prophet but since he's teaching them to be humble {Matthew 5:5; 12:23; Luke 14:7-11} (which they never wanted to be) they condemned him and only a few of them accepted his wise counsel.🙂

This is a fantastic response.

If the Jews didn't believe Jesus's miracles and demonstrations as you suggest - and Satan controlled the minds of the Jews against Jesus, as you also suggested...

Would it be accurate to assume - the Jews were thinking at a different level or smarter level, than to just attach the devil to their disbelief?


Portraying poverty as a tool, Satan uses to turn God's servants from God, still contradicts wealth.

Simply, if poverty can turn a servant of God away from God through Satan, then also, wealth can do same through Satan.

This makes testing faith, non-realistic in all conditions.

No servant is as righteousness as Jesus (If he ever was).

MaxInDHouse:
Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen. For by means of it, the men of ancient times had witness borne to them. Hebrews 11:1-2

When Jesus followed all the instruction given to him on how to preach, teach and use God's power to perform miracles yet 99% of Jews didn't believe him that doesn't mean God failed him rather it means Satan has a firm grip on most Jews. Likewise when a faithful servant of God have done all things he should do but makes little money just to survive that doesn't mean God is not alive or God is not there for him rather it means Satan wants him to do things that will make him an enemy of God.

For instance God has promised Jesus that he will rule over planet earth {Isaiah 9:6-7} and all he had to do is talk to people about how his government will run but Satan wanted Jesus to turn against God {Luke 4:5-7} so Satan promised Jesus that all what God promised will take a long process Jesus didn't give in. That is the type of faith a believer should have! Hebrews 12:2