₦airaland Forum

@ whizkid. The problem isn't u in my opinion, it is your sound engineer. He's over stacking your vocals so there are too many vocal tracks competing with each other. It's like your voice is coming from everywhere. Left, right, centre, some of them have delays on them, and other effects, so the sound is good, but we can't make out what u are saying because the words are unclear. Stacking vocals like that is good for R&B singing when u have a lot of harmonies and stuff to blend together, but IMO it isn't good for rap. Stack some of the words that rhyme, or some parts when u want to highlight your flow, but not almost every single word.

I like the song tho, I noticed when I turn the volume down it's easier to hear what u're saying. U can tell your engineer turn down those background vocals so they arent competing with your main vocals. It's not your voice, IMO . . . I think your voice sounds good. Kinda like Jeezy.

Dat track sounds nice mehn. Sometimes it was hard to make out what u're saying, but once i got used to it it was easy. . . your style is unique. I gbadun am. Who produced it?

your flow is ill mehn. I had to listen like 3 times to actually get it cause it's so different from other stuff I hear, but I'm feeling it anyhow. Na some bad guy $.hit.

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=442151.msg6031428#msg6031428 date=1273773293]Though he had no trouble quoting from it just now to mount a 'defence', Krayola insists Acts is not accurate and Paul is actually 'the reliable historian'. What history did Paul record? He offers none. He says Paul is boastful and proud and brags endlessly because that is the scholarship style in antiquity. Paul was 'rude' because his (imaginary) 'opponents' were 'rude'. Krayola's evidence for all these and the scholars who verified it? None. He's 'finishing a religious degree'. All the argurments posted over the last couple of days has been erased, so he's acting like they never existed. Trash an argument like the Gentile/Jew/ Jewish law above and he ignores it and produces another out of the air. Not because he's really interested in what's true in a religion he doesn't believe in, but for the sake of extending his thread. He labels things 'silly IMO' and 'conspiracy theory' as if merely calling it so makes it so. Talk and talk and talk, but no proof or evidence ever. If someone is completely ignorant of biblical text, textual analysis and history, cannot state his sources and is incapable of linking cause, however distant and shortsighted, with effect but produces one bad argument after another all in aid of defending the indefensible, what is to be done? Absolutely nothing.[/quote]Damn!! Na me do all these things? This one na life without parole nah. . .


It's ok. U win. Paul is the anti-Christ, a true wolf in sheep's clothing.

vescucci:
I think that's that. Krayola. I'd like to get your contact info. I need your help getting some material in some areas.

daromp@live.com

noetic16:
I am surprised krayola is still in this "debate"

Na devil push me. He hasn't stopped yet.

I think I misunderstood your post. U said "secretive" so I thought maybe u meAnt as is secret society.  If one wants to convert to Judaism it is possible, but generally theY don't actively seek converts. Part of the conversion process is them discouraging the person seeking conversion. And I meant most people won't want to learn Hebrew just because they are curious. Unless maybe serious scholars I think few people learn Arabic just so they can study the Quran. To study Torah I think u have to understand the Hebrew texts.

vescucci:
You guys are like a bad couple. Breaking up and making up. I'll try to post the essentials of my questions later. Your piece was good but I knew that already. I meant Jewish culture in relation to the average man is secretive. Most of what we discuss here is not in a Smithsonian vault but it is not common knowledge

haha. I don't know what u know, or what u don't. I just commented on what I remember from your post.

Judaism is not secretive IMO.  It just isn't as accessible mainly, IMO, because most people won't go and learn Hebrew just because they want to learn about a religion. But there is info online, in libraries, pretty much all over the place for anyone that wants to know, or they can just ask a Jew. I've discussed Judaism with several religious Jews before and they have been pretty open. Some of the perceived secrecy may have to do with a possible  lack of trust after 19 centuries of anti-semtism.

I'm not even sure what exactly u mean by "Jewish culture"  . . .  I'm sure, now, that u know Jewish culture is not monolithic. . . Judaism is a Jewish religion but most Jews do not even practice it. In Israel only about 30% practice the traditional religion.  Most of the others are secularists and observe the festivals but as "National identity" type thing not really as religious holy days.  ABout 20 % are not observant at all

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=442151.msg6029889#msg6029889 date=1273758941]People died. People DIED. Human beings like you and me. Horrifically. If you knew the details of what happened to them over nineteen centuries you will lose sleep for a hundred years. Terrible things have been done because of someone's teaching. You tried to deride my research and say I'm calling him bad because I disagree with him. Take a tambourine and go dance in the streets because you agree with Paul. Rejoice over all the countless men, women, children and infants (as young as a year old) that were burned and suffered cruel, insanely wicked, unnecessary deaths over his doctrines. Boogie over Paul-doctrine-based apartheid theology that Christians themselves condemned and be happy for those who perished under it while you probably sat somewhere cosily sipping Fanta.[/quote]haha. cut da crap. We all know the history and how horrible it is. Trying to pin it on Paul is, IMO, silly, at best. If u want to discuss how the idea of heresies came about in Christianity, and the power struggles that led to persecutions, we can discuss that elsewhere. But this appeal to pity, and the horror of the middle ages, is opata.

  Na waa o. see me see trouble o.  WHy u wan hang Paul by force o. Wetin baba Paul do u o. E ma gbami lo wo false prosecutor o. 

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=442151.msg6029889#msg6029889 date=1273758941]You put the part where Peter declared HE was the one sent to the Gentiles in bold, a fact no one challenged at that meeting, in case you didn't notice. That's good. I hope you read that. ACTS 21:21 described Paul preaching a false doctrine that Jews were not to follow the law and the apostles confronting him about it. Matthew 5:17, the sermon on the mount, confirms Christ taught them no such thing. The meeting you highlighted was about gentile believers. The elders sent letters to the GENTILES that they were not to follow the law, or did you conveniently miss 'gentile brethren' in your verse 23?[/quote]I have maintained that Acts is not a historical document. I just pointed that out to show u that even Acts does not support this conspiracy theory of yours. You accused me of avoiding Paul, when all i was trying to do was to create a context in which we could see how valid your claims are. But I decided to play by your own rules, because people are reading and it is important they do not get misinformed. Your arguments are based on your own personal faith and beliefs. The texts you site as historical, and have been using to support your arguments, are NOT accurate historical accounts. Now, Let's pretend they were. They still do not support what you claim. Let me show you. 


This is acts 21: 21 where, according to you, Paul was CONFRONTED, about his "false teachings"

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=442151.msg6029889#msg6029889 date=1273758941]ACTS 21:21 described Paul preaching a false doctrine that Jews were not to follow the law and the apostles confronting him about it. Matthew 5:17, the sermon on the mount, confirms Christ taught them no such thing. The meeting you highlighted was about gentile believers. The elders sent letters to the GENTILES that they were not to follow the law, or did you conveniently miss 'gentile brethren' in your verse 23? But the erroneous teaching they confronted Paul about in Acts 21:21 is still in the bible.[/quote]Paul Visits James

17When we had come to Jerusalem,(U) the brothers received us gladly. 18On the following day Paul went in with us to(V) James, and all(W) the elders were present. 19After greeting them,(X) he related one by one(Y) the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his(Z) ministry. 20And when they heard it, they(AA) glorified God. And they said to him, "[b]You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all(AB) zealous for the law, 21and they have been told about you that you teach all(AC) the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses,(AD) telling them(AE) not to circumcise their children or(AF) walk according to(AG) our customs. 22What then is to be done? [/b]They will certainly hear that you have come. 23Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men(AH) who are under a vow; 24take these men and(AI) purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses,(AJ) so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law. 25But as for the Gentiles who have believed,(AK) we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled,[c] and from sexual immorality." 26Then Paul took the men, and the next day(AL) he purified himself along with them and(AM) went into the temple, giving notice when the days of purification would be fulfilled and(AN) the offering presented for each one of them.

As you can see in the highlighted red fonts, they are discussing JEWS that are concerned Paul teaches JEWS to abandon Torah. James is sending people with Paul, to show the JEWS that have this concern they have been mistaken, and that even Paul was still committed to Torah (in Green).  But that as for the Gentiles, they were to do blah blah blah you know the rest.

What are you going to come up with next? 

haha. All the posts don dissapear. SHina Rambo in the building! 


@Vescucci. I can't remember everything u said cause the post has disappeared.  But I'm pretty sure u asked something about Jewish Messianic expectations.

Jews believed and expected different things. We tend to view them as this homogeneous group of people that shared a uniform set of beliefs, but that is far from the truth. There were Jews that didn't even believe in God. There were pagan Jews, conservative devout Jews, Liberal devous Jews, Essenes, Zealots etc etc ., each with their own version of Hebrew religion, and different messianic expectations, or even none at all. Jerusalem religious Jews would have had somewhat different ideasn from Galiliea Jews, would have had different ideas from diaspora Jews in different parts of the empire etc etc. They were all still considered religious Jews, and would have come to the temple for Passover and all that. Judaism[b]s[/b] would be a more accurate way to describe it, and they were all recognized.

DIfferent ideas of the Messiah existed. SOme expected no messiah at all, some expected a military Messiah, some expected 2 kinds of Messiahs, one prophetic and one military, some believed Jesus was the Messiah, some believed other people, that lived during Jesus were the Messiah etc etc. I've been trying to emphasize since that the NT is a faith documet, while others have been using it as a record of history. It presents Jesus as the "true" Messiah because it was written by people that believe strongly in Jesus as the Messiah. It paints Jesus' opponents as "filled with envy",  malicious when they challenge Jesus, etc etc. Those narratives have to be read very critically. They represent one view amongst many, and are far from fair and balanced in their portrayal of events and people groups.

Messianism formed an important component of religious belief among all the groups in this period. The expectation of a messiah, an anointed scion of the Davidic royal house, took on strong eschatological overtones in the Greco-Roman period. This is in reaction to the political oppression suffered under the Greeks and the Romans, and in some cases to the takeover of the temple and the high priesthood by those deemed unworthy to control it. Messianic beliefs, like everything else in this period, were not uniform across groups; however, messianic expectations seem to be rampant. Josephus describes several messianic movements in this period; he mentions names such as Judas of Galilee, Simon bar Goriah, Theudas, and the Egyptian. In the second Jewish revolt in 132-135 CE, its leader, Simeon bar Kosiba (bar Kokhba) was hailed as messiah by no less a figure than Rabbi Akiba (Collins: 110-11). Therefore it is not surprising that according to the gospels some of Jesus' followers acclaimed him as messiah; such a belief would be neither unusual nor unique in the first century CE.

[21] I have attempted today to paint a picture of the world of Jesus and his disciples that reflects the variety of the multifaceted communities in which they lived and which they would have encountered. This picture constantly changes and expands as our knowledge base changes and expands; therefore no one source is adequate for portraying a realistic version of the life of Jesus.

http://www.unomaha.edu/jrf/2004Symposium/Crawford.htm  This link breaks down 1st century Palestine so one can get a better idea of the context in which all these events happened. I only posted the last paragraph cause it deals with Messianic expectations, but reading the whole thing, especially the second half dealing with the world of Jesus may be very helpful.


@ Madmax. IN Acts 15:24 , we have what seems to me as the Jerusalem apostles, including Peter and James, explicitly endorsing a very same "false" teaching that Paul is being accused of spreading. How do you make sense of that?

4And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

5But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

6And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

12Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

22Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

@ honeric. haha. I no hate yaya o. He makes sloppy costly mistakes sometimes so i dey always fear when game dey tight and the ball is with him.

@ Mad max. I apologize if i came across rude. your opinions are very welcome and I hope u continue to contribute to this discussion. I should have responded to your posts but I was just being lazy, and i, wrongly and maybe foolishly, didn't think u were interested in listenin to anyone so i just shied away. Abeg no vex o. Jesus talk say make we no fight.  Oya, chop knuckle

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=442151.msg6024456#msg6024456 date=1273354179]The messages of Christ were there. The apostles Christ appointed were spreading them. Paul does not buttress his teachings with the teachings of Jesus because he refused to learn from the apostles.[/quote]Paul disagreed with the disciples on what was required of Gentiles who wanted to come to Jesus. I am unaware of Jesus giving any specific orders regarding this. Jesus, during his life, preached to Jews, and even, on occasion, referred to Gentiles as dogs. Paul's beef with the disciples was not really about doctrinal issues, but conversion issues. It was a new issue that had just come up, and Paul, convinced his mission was to Gentiles, and that their salvation, and the return of Jesus was at stake, was determined to get the Gentiles saved. He wouldn't let anyone stop him, not even the disciples. We can disagree with him, but that does not necessarily make him a bad person. If u have some instances when Paul disagreed with the disciples about the teachings of Jesus, please let me know.

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=442151.msg6024456#msg6024456 date=1273354179]He merely propagated his own teachings.[/quote]For example . . . . . . ?

If u mean Paul asking people to be cast out of the church and left to satan, Jesus asks to treat dissenters like one would treat a pagan  or a tax collector. Matthew 18 15. Now Paul's rhetoric might seem to us in this day and age as over the top, but I will attempt to put that in context later in this response.

We need to remember that we live 2000 years after the fact, and there is a lot of history that clouds our judgement. . . so it is very difficult to look back at the events of the 1st century without doing it thru the lens of the horrendous history of the Imperial church, and the frustration and anger we feel towards those we think, rightfully or not, are responsible. Objectivity, especially for people with something at stake in this, is extremely difficult.

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=442151.msg6024456#msg6024456 date=1273354179]Where did he get his teachings? He says Christ was revealed in him. (Whatever that means).Don't take my word for it. He said so himself. Galatians 1 :11-12, 16-17.

I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. Yeah, right.

But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was[/quote]The issues in Galatians were about conversion. Paul, according to the sources we have, believed he had a vision and was instructed to bring the Gentiles on board. He had taken that message to the Galatians, and others had come and told them they had been misled, and that they had to accept the Jewish purity laws and  have their males circumcised. We can reject Paul's position. TBH I do. I also reject all the claims about Jesus being divine and walking on water and all that, IMO, nonsense. But what would be, in my view, inappropriate, will be to call the people who made all those claims evil, arrogant, malicious, etc and the people who believe such, using your words "wallowing in deception", and "deceiving themselves".  (I confess i've called them such few times on NL so this halo i'm trying to hang over my head na counterfeit  ) Again, Paul did not disagree with the disciples about something Jesus taught or instructed, but on what was required of new converts.


[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=442151.msg6024456#msg6024456 date=1273354179]He was constantly at war with the genuine apostles, who rejected him. Always sowing discord, always boasting and defending himself against accusations of lying.[/quote]"Genuine" apostles? Please remember that these people were also human. Some of whom were even, according to the gospels, scolded by Jesus in his lifetime. One betrayed him, one denied him three times in a very short period of time, one doubted the resurrection, and none hung around to watch him suffer and die. We are not in any position to vouch for the character of these individuals. We do not have a written copy of what these people said to Paul, or any of these communities, to see how polite or civil they were. You are free to pick sides, but I hope you realize that we know very little of these individuals.  We have letters from Paul so we can dissect and make all sorts of judgments about him, but they get a "get out of jail free" pass.  Maybe if we had a copy of one of the letters Paul's opponents wrote, if they could write, we could say we had an informed opinion. . . but only Paul left us correspondence, so he gets all the heat.

Also, according to Acts 13 the Holy spirit instructed hands to be laid on Barnabas and Saul, and then had them sent out for some special work. . .  and Paul went and encountered some sorcerer dude and what not and made him blind. SO the genuine disciples, that u say rejected him, did send Paul on a mission, and Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit, according to texts that Paul had nothing to do with, and were written over 50 years after Paul. How Paul pulled this forgery off is beyond me. Maybe u can shed some light on this.

Paul did disagree with the disciples though, but u are, IMO, exaggerating the scope of the disagreements. He was IMO not distorting the teachings of Jesus, but insisting on an all inclusive Kingdom of God.

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=442151.msg6024456#msg6024456 date=1273354179]And his letters were written in Greek. The apostles spoke and wrote Aramaic.  Paul could speak and write in Aramaic but wrote his letters in Greek, which the apostles of Christ could not read.[/quote]Paul wrote Greek letters because his audience spoke Greek and not Aramaic. It, IMO, probably wasn't because he did not want the disciples to understand. WHy write Aramaic letters to Gentiles? Would u have done that?


[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=442151.msg6024456#msg6024456 date=1273354179]Interesting possibilities as to why.  27 books in the New Testament. Only 8 written by the genuine apostles: Mattew, John, James, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, Jude, and Revelations.[/quote]The "genuine" apostles were most likely illiterate. They, almost certainly, did not write any of the books u listed there. Matthew's author is unknown. John's author is unknown, and this gospel is largely viewed and ahistorical, and more of a theological text. The letters of John were believed to have been written by the author of the gospel of John, but most scholars believe they were authored by a group related to this author, maybe students of his, but not the same individual. (This was discussed in depth in a thread recently. . i'll try to find a link to it. Can't remember what thread it was). The dating of the letters make them impossible to have been written by the apostle John. He would have been well over 100 years old.  James and Jude are Pseudonymous.  Revelation is believed to be from the same group that authored the letters of John.

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=442151.msg6024456#msg6024456 date=1273354179]The rest was made up of the writings of Paul and his descendant disciples. And no, they, not Peter, wrote 1 and 2 Peter. Their little fraud was exposed by scholars, and the stylistic similarities between the Peter letters and Pauline writing are too overwhelming for doubt. Not only that, but 2 Peter promotes whatever Paul teaches, even if you don't understand it.  2 Peter 3: 15-16[/quote]wow! Going by what u call  "fraud", Genesis all the way to Revelation, except the confirmed letters of Paul, are a fraud, because most of the claimed authors didn't write nada.  Ascribing authors to texts was common practice in those days.  Below is an excerpt from my old class notes on this issue

Pseudepigraphy (ascribing  false names of authors to works)

1. The term “pseudepigraphy” is closely related to “pseudonymity”.
a. Does pseudepigraphy present problems for faith and theology?
 Critical questions regarding authorship are not the same as questioning the “Scriptural” or “canonical” status of a document.

2. The practice of pseudepigraphy in the 1st century
a. Reasons for writing in Paul’s name
i. To show respect for Paul’s mission and views.
ii. To show dependence on the revelatory tradition of Paul as an apostle or messenger of God (“guarding the deposit”).
 Distinction between “writer” and “author” of letter (Raymond E. Brown).
iii. To correct perceived misinterpretations of the apostle’s legacy
iv. To garner support for a particular interpretation of Paul’s teaching during a time of controversy
b. Was anyone fooled? Was the pseudepigraphy transparent? (Andrew Lincoln)

3. Kinds of data leading to the suspicion of pseudepigraphy:
a. Style of writing: is this simply the result of the use of various secretaries or scribes (amanuenses), or a sign of another author altogether?
b. Theology, such as eschatology
c. Sociology, or move toward greater institutionalization and more conservative community structure and interpersonal relationships

4. List of “disputed” letters:
 2 Thessalonians
 Colossians
 Ephesians
 1 Timothy
 2 Timothy
 Titus

Right from the Old Testament, this was common practice. . . The letters of John that u claim to have been written by the original apostles were written in similar manner.

I have to run now but I'll finish maybe tomorrow. This is takin a lot of time and it's saturday night. Reading books about 1st century Palestine isn't what I wanna be doing right now. I still have lots to add tho, especially about why Paul seems to come across as boastful and arrogant. .  and I'll finish it up later. ciao. 

Those were not insults.

Pauls wrote letters, not scripture. He was responding to specific situations in a specific context. he did not ask for his letters to become Christian bible. When u take his statements thAt he wrote to a specific group of people, about a specific issue, and use that to connect him with the atrocities committed by an Imperial institution many centuries later, that is, IMO  far fetched and even ridiculous. When Jesus asks u to cut off your hands that makes u sin why don't u do that? Why not take him literally? If I keep thinking lustful thoughts and decide to shoot myself in the head so that I stop sinning, can I go ahead and blame Jesus for that?  How does being a Pharisee affect one being an apostle? How does acts, a book written decades after Paul, by an unknown author become more reliable than the letters of the person it describes? I can go on and on. . And I will when I respond later.


When I said u have said little of substance, I meant it. Do I regret that I did, yes. I was a bit irritated at the time and let it get the best of me. I could have chosen my words more carefully and I have apologized.

haha. I'm not a Christian. I'm not even religious at all. There isn't anything at stake in this for me,  I'm just into this stuff cause I'm a geek.

Sorry to disappoint u. 

haha. Abeg o. I never attacked u. If I came across that way i apologize.


I've been watching soccer which is why i haven't responded. My team won so I'm goin to drink.

I'll respond to all ur posts later. It's work i was trying to avoid cause it seemed u were not willing to listen to anyone's views, but If u say u are I'll try and respond later.

I don't like Paul at all. . . just so u know. But i'm pretty sure a lot of ur views about him are misguided. It's just goin to take a lot to get that across and I honestly don't like Paul enough to put all that time into it. But I'll respond later.

3 points in the bag. 

If Madrid like make dem win 25 -1. Na for dem pocket.

Watch Yaya Toure do sumn silly and cost us the 2 points

chei 4-1 in Madrid. mo gbe

Real Madrid have 21 shots on goal and 75% possession and don't have the lead burriful

Goal Pedro.

What a clean shot!!

3-0

Mourinho is on course to win a treble, and even possibly do what Pep did last year (6 trophies). Make una siddon on top PC dey playa-hate the guy. Na una sabi   

Real Madrid 1 - Ath Bilbao 1

Half time

GOAL!!!

0-2

Goal Messi.

0-1

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=442151.msg6023024#msg6023024 date=1273337998]I've no idea what you mean by more credible than Paul. Biblical books were written, a[b]lmost all the authors have been determined, what was added to their writings have been and are being sorted out[/b].[/quote]That is inaccurate. . . . What authors do we know? And how can u hold Paul responsible for what people inserted into his writings?


EVen if it were, Paul's letters are the most reliable sources we have into the development of early Christianity. U can take that to the bank.  I'm not a fan of Paul. . . but anyone that dismisses his letters in favor of other books in the New Testament is lost, as far as looking for historical data goes.



[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=442151.msg6020689#msg6020689 date=1273309503]I stated how I determine what to believe elsewhere.[/quote]Thats what I'm asking for, and all u have to do is provide a link. if u don't want to that is fine. But it is pretty clear, IMO, that u are avoiding that. Why?

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=442151.msg6020689#msg6020689 date=1273309503]I gave an opinion on Paul and stated exactly why. They weren't pulled out of thin air. I made no unsubstiantated allegations.[/quote]Pretty much all your allegations have been unsubstantiated. U quoted Paul asking someone to be kicked out of a church and left to satan, and called that an endorsement of what the catholic church did centuries after. Are u serious? u were really expecting anyone to respond to something that far-fetched?

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=442151.msg6020689#msg6020689 date=1273309503]I've been hoping someone would produce evidence to prove they're false so I could have something to celebrate. Honestly, I'd be overjoyed. Round and round in circles when the charges against him remain unanswered. It doesn't matter what he was, really. He is merely a man and simply irrelevant.He's not the foundation of faith, Christ is. You're making me repeat myself. Off I go.[/quote]U're just being dramatic IMO. U have said little of substance.

@ Madmax. In which thread did u state ur sources and why u think they are more credible than Paul? can u please provide a link? thanks

OMG what is up with Ibra and Pique? I hope this isn't why Ibra's form has been dipping.   

Cool video. Nice special effizies. Dem try. Up Naija!! 

I think it is fine to question people's actions, but questioning their motives, and labeling people as evil, liars, etc, because we disagree with them is a lil over the top IMO. The faith we are debating even condemns such. We do not see all. . . we do not see peoples hearts, we do not know the whole story. All we have are little bits of info here and there and we are trying to understand what people, over 2000 years ago, thought and did. If we are accusing Paul of letting his own convictions and pride get the best of him, we should, IMO, be careful not to conduct ourselves in a similar manner.

I don't think Paul's message is EXACTLY the same as Jesus', but i think the differences may be minor (exclusive vs inclusive . . . aight. . I'm not sure of the whole remission of sins thing. I don't think Jesus thought he was doing any such thing. But that is another story entirely ). I think he may have tried too hard to make the message understandable and appealing to the Gentile world. But IMO he believed he was being used by the Holy Spirit, and playing his part in fulfilling certain Old Testament prophecies, and he had to do what he was doing in order to usher in the coming of the Messiah that would reclaim the earth.

Some Jews believed in an exclusive, Jew only, kingdom of God. It is very likely even Jesus and his disciples did (hence the dispute between Paul and others over the importance of circumcision and purity laws for interested Gentiles . .  - what some like to call letter vs spirit). Some believed one had to fully become a Jew to be part of the Kingdom and be saved. But some, like Paul and his team, believed non-Jews could be part of the kingdom even while remaining Gentiles. The apocalyptic (end-times) Old Testament texts  were quite ambiguous in the descriptions of the nature of the coming Kingdom, so it is not surprising, IMO, that both sides were convinced they were doing the will of God, as both views were believed to be backed by scripture. Which is why I appeal to people that we can disagree with what certain people did, but we should be careful not to label their intentions "malicious", or "evil". It is unfair, IMO.

If u read Isiah 49:23, Micah 7:16,  you will see that Gentiles will be conquered, captured, and held in Jerusalem, with their kings "licking dust off Israel's feet". If u read Isiah 54:3  and  Zeph 2:1-3:8 you will see that Gentile cities will be ravaged and be repopulated by Israel. If u read Micah 5:9, 15 u will see that Gentile nations and gods will be destroyed by God. Some Jesus believers saw texts like these and believed that to be truly saved, and become part of the Kingdom when it came, Gentiles that had come to know Jesus had to make the full conversion and become Jews. Including keeping kosher, circumcision, sabbath, etc etc

Now, if read Isiah 2:2-4 you will see that nations will come together to worship God in his temple. If u read Isiah 25:6 you will see that nations feast together, on the temple mount, on the meal God has prepared for them. And if u read Zech  , you will see Gentiles ABANDONING THEIR IDOLS AND ACCOMPANYING JEWS on their journey home. (Notice that both Gentiles and Jews are included in the kingdom).

20"Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'It will yet be that peoples will come, even the inhabitants of many cities. 21'The inhabitants of one will go to another, saying, "Let us go at once to entreat the favor of the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts; I will also go." 22'So many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the LORD.' 23"Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'" (Zechariah 8:20-23)

^^ As u can see there were both exclusively Jewish expectations of the Kingdom (Paul's opponents), and inclusive expectations of the Kingdom (Paul). Paul felt him mission was to get the Gentiles to abandon their gods, and come to his God, and he did not feel they had to become Jews, so he was willing to compromise on the matters of Jewish law. He, IMO, felt he was being used by the Holy Spirit for a noble cause, and he went about his business as passionately as he could. He was, after all, only human. . .

I kinda had to rush to close this off cause I have to run. There is a little more I could have added but i think this should be able to get what I'm trying to say across. . . .  We can be skeptical without throwing all these wild charges of people being "evil" and whatever around.

funkybaby:
i really like genuflect's 'so dark'. listened to it thrice. lol

That track is very nice. Genuflect is currently one of my favorite rappers. I tell am e think say I dey play. On my Iphone he is on my artist's list and has more than 8 songs . I have the artwork and everything. Na autograph remain. 

Ibime:
Loving it!!! 

Oya finish the track make we hear. . .

haha. nice. I'll try to finish it.  I'll upload as soon as it is done. 

In my opinion . . .

mazaje:
Who really was Paul of Trasus?. . . .
Apostel? . . . Yes (I don't think anyone can endure what he did unless he seriously believed in what he was doing. His life was HELL. I think he was sincere)
Disciple? . . No (not of Jesus, maybe he was a disciple of the pharisees at some point
Believer? . . . Yes
Fraud? . . .  .No
Crazy  end of day zealot? . . . Very likely (I'll take off the "crazy" though . . maybe fanatical)
Opportunist? . . . . Possibly
Charlatan?. . . . .  No

Haha. . . No be so?Na condition nah

  I was struggling to speak in that intro mehn,  Felt like my tongue was crippled. Shayo na ba$tardo . This is the first time I heard it since the day I recorded it. Be like say I go try write the rest of it. I didn't like it before but I think I was just too drunk to know what sounded right. It's not that bad, I just have to tighten up the execution and write the rest, IMO.

na im be dis. E be like say i go try finish am

http://www.plunder.com/Eye-dey-strong-mp3-download-c6f816d143.htm