₦airaland Forum

Mitocyan:
Ok does that also mean he had virgin birth? Does that also prove he performed outlandish miracles and does that prove that he rose from the dead? Does that prove that he raised Lazarus from the dead?

Do you agree he exist? Let’s start from there.

bobowaja:
Prove that he does exist. You can't just tell me to believe you have a ring on your finger without showing me.

We can do this all day you know.

It seems you just want to keep going in circles. I sincerely don’t have that time.

There are thousands of records that support the facts that Jesus truly existed and at a certain time was crucified on the cross.

NuissancePolice:
I have never seen any single miracle by anyone but I have heard claims of people receiving miracles. A few of my friends claimed to have had supernatural encounters but I later discovered they were lies. Infact the most recent one was medically treated of the hallucinations he earlier had purported to be visions. Also, I have witnessed people testifying that their stomach pain, chest pain etc got miraculously healed (things that are not visible) but in the same assembly, people with broken leg, proven cases of paralysis, blindness, burns and other things that could be physically verified not get cured. I honestly wish I could find any iota of sense in what you wrote as all I can see is one who is so entangled in indoctrination.

Although you did not touch any of the 10 issues that was the original aim of the thread, I nevertheless appreciate your engagment with the thread.

Lol. I’m telling you what I’ve seen happen, not third party information. It was something I saw my own eyes. You are not omniscience so you cannot know what’s happening everywhere. Your own experience is your experience and I don’t have the fact to call it a lie but it’s laughable the length you’d go to rubbish someone else experience.

You say indoctrination and I laugh. I’ll keep repeating it, most of you really don’t understand what Christianity is all about and it’s amusing to watch as you try to rubbish what you don’t understand.

I said ask your question one after the other and I will respond. I thought the subject matter we are discussing is part of the questions you raised in your OP?

tejiri4:
Even all those that have PHD have not brought anything meaningful to the Nigeria economy. Why those that don't have are bringing forth new ideas and businesses. I feel is a complete waste of time. Masters is enough. oga larride good morning.

Good morning sir.

The bolded including Certification is the koko.

..

I remember some discussion about PhD on here.


Here are some thoughts culled from Twitter.

raumdeuter:
Players handed to Mourinho
Ronaldo.CL winner, Kaka CL winner, Ramos- world cup and Euro winner, Casillas World cup and Euro winner, Xabi - world cup and Euro winner,

Players Pap disgraced in the UCL

Neuer - Worlc Cup and CL winner
Lahm - World Cup and CL winner
Boatheng - World Cup and CL winner
David Alaba - CL winner
Thomas Muller - World Cup and CL winner
Frank Ribery - CL winner
Arjen Robben- CL winner
Javi Martinez - CL winner
Xabi Alonso - World Cup, Euro and CL winner

Yet they keep drinking goals like kunu everytime in the knockout stage of the UCL.

Pap Fraudiola.

Mitocyan:
I am sorry you haven't achieved anything other than arguing in circles.

Lol. Goodnight.

Mitocyan:
Yes I agree. I don't have a late brother so no offense at all I understand it is for the purpose of this discussion.

In similar vain you agree that Jesus doesn't exist right cos you have never seen him?

Your first paragraph has defeated the whole purpose of this thread cause it has brought out the inaccuracy of your arguments.

You know for a certain that Your brother did exist but you want to agree with me because of an argument that he doesn’t exist just because you want to prove that Jesus doesn’t exist.

You see how that sound?

Mitocyan:
Please can your Pastor heal Ayefele so that we can know it is not staged. Because that is what they all are. I don't care the Pastors you call. I know they'll tell you it is God that is doing it. But that is just the simple modus operandi of scammers, charlatans and snake oil sales man. It works for them and people like you end up believing and inviting people and they make more money from offering and tithes and buy private jets. They do charities too to have a greater stronghold on the weak masses so that even if someone's eyes open the followers would descend on him. How is this business model lost on smart people. Just how?

I really do not need to read past that first line. Every other thing that followed is a poor attempt at criticizing what you really don’t understand.

You really do not understand what Christianity is.

Christianity is a way of life. The disciples were first called Christians in Antoich because the people there noticed that their behavior is like Christ. Christian means Christ - like. The Bible recorded that Jesus Christ went about doing good. The greatest commandment he gave to us is - LOVE.

I cannot speak for other Christians as Christianity is meant to be a personal relationship with God through Jesus. I will not be the judge of what I do not know but the Bible says “Search all doctrine and hold on to that which is true”.

Cheers.

Mitocyan:
At least you say that my late brother never came to your house therefore he doesn't exist. By extension, it follows that Jesus doesn't exist since he never came to your house. I suppose we can proceed from here? Oh and by the way. This is not supposed to appear like a fight but an intellectual discuss so forgive all my attempt at making it appear like one. I admonish you not to make it appear like one also.

So you agree with me that your brother doesn’t exist because I never saw him? Right?

No offense taken whatsoever.

NuissancePolice:
The bolded is a classical example of the fallacy of appealing to ignorance. It is like asking you to prove to me that I don't have 1 billion dollars.

The onus is on you to provide the proof.

This is not a correct analogy pls.

Before I can ask you to prove that you don’t have 2 billion dollars, we must have had a discussion that centered on the subject matter - Billion dollars. Then during the discussion you say “I have 1 billion dollars because I have so n so and it’s recorded in so so” Yet I said it’s a lie, you don’t have 1 billion dollars, I must have a reason to disprove that you don’t.

You are the one with the allegation that Jesus Christ isn’t real, the burden of proof is on you. I did not bring you to this court of public opinion, you did.

NuissancePolice:
Your entire argument is based on the premise that the bible in itself is indeed an authority but I do not want to debate that inorder not to lose track of the subject. Assuming the bible is infact God's word and a record of events that actually happened, the question is can you point to any christian in our era that has done any "work" greater than Jesus with evidence? E.g. Jesus christ plugged back the ear of one of his disciples that were chopped off, turned water into wine, walked on water etc. These are objective proofs that prove supernaturality.

2.

@bolded, lets say that the people you referred to here did not believe. Well, how about you? Have you experienced any of these supernatural events through you? Have you done any works atleast comparable with that of Jesus christ since you believe? The converse implication of the bold claim that says "these signs shall follow them that believe" is that if you do not experience them, you are an unbeliever. Are you a believer based on these?



What I am doing is beyond looking for miracles. I am only probing the validity of your bible based on what it claims. I am simply just putting it to test just the way I would if any scientist come up with a new discovery. Imagine a scientist coming up with an equation that can be used to build a HIV cure or vaccine, shouldn't the equation be tested? Be reasonable. Not everyone is looking to mock God. If your bible had said, those that believe in him will have green blood for instance, that is what I will ask you to show me. If indeed God is real, then he must honour everything he said in his book else he is either a fraud or his book was made up by people.

Good that we are getting somewhere.

1. You have seen a lot of Pastors that have done miracles like Bishop Oyedapo, Pastor Adeboye, Oyakilome and the likes but you will still question their miracles, therefore this miracles have to happen directly to you before you can believe it. I have seen my Pastor heal a lame man on wheelchair, I have seen a Pastor pray for a woman that has no womb for the fruit of the womb and God sustain a pregnancy in her.

2. What’s to say you will not start to question my own personal experiences once I share them?

There are some called into the ministry of deliverance, some into the ministry of intercession and some into the ministry of teaching. We have function with the capabilities that the Holy Spirit has given us. Have I prayed for the sick and he was healed? Yes. Have I turned water to wine? No. In my 200l, we were preparing for drama night and our rehearsal were vigil every Wednesday and I have Statistics class every Thursday morning by 7am. Have I prayed for the class to be rescheduled to another day and the class was rescheduled to Sat? YES. Have I tread on serpent? No. Have I slept on scorpion unknowingly while in the Uni and I was not bitten? YES. There are lots of personal experience that I have serving this God.

3. If you want to probe the Bible, then you will need to go on a personal journey of self discovery. If you want to test the validity of God, put your trust in him and ask him to show himself to you. You will get your answer.

Mitocyan:
Ok let's do it this way. What makes you think Jesus is real has he been to your house before. Has he helped you raise a dead loved one before?

Your late brother never came to my house before, so he doesn’t exist. Beautiful.

bobowaja:
Answer me first. The burden of prove lies with you.

I said Jesus is REAL and he Exist. I’m not doing his existence. It is both of you that are denying his existence. So bring proof that he doesn’t exist.

Mitocyan:
I understand the angle you are coming from. It's the same way Pastor TB J will not question the purported miracles of Pastor Chris O. He knows it is fake but he won't question it so that his too won't be questioned. I understand your plight but continue.

You can stop quoting me now.

Thanks.

bobowaja:
@bolded.

If it is grounded as you claimed. No one would be disputing that today. The thing is nothing is absolute until it is put to test.

You told me you have a ring on your middle finger. I told you to show me, you won't but would rather tell me to believe you do have it.

Are you saying that Jesus isn’t real and He never existed?

Mitocyan:
I understand the angle you are coming from. It's the same way Pastor TB J will not question the purported miracles of Pastor Chris O. He knows it is fake but he won't question it so that his too won't be questioned. I understand your plight but continue.

OK.

Mitocyan:
Lool all these are just simple things a snake oil sales man will say to unsuspecting observers to ward off further probe so he won't be easily discovered as a charlatan. I've been here before. They say you shouldn't look for miracles but say Jesus did miracles and Jesus said "you people will do greater works that he did". A perfect model for a snake oil sales man.

I really do not want to sound condescending because that’s how you are sounding right now.

If you want to have a proper debate, I’m open to one and if not we can just end this here.

Thank you.

bobowaja:
Prove that I am not using an iPhone. Normally the proving should be on me to convince you that I am. Not the other way round.

Why do I have to prove you are not using an iPhone? Did I ever claim you are not using one?

The claim is on ground already. JESUS IS REAL and He Exist, you are the one that claim he’s not real and he doesn’t exist so the burden of proof has shifted to you.

You are the one that’s disproving which means you know something I don’t know, bring your proof that he doesn’t exist and I will bring mine that he exist.

Mitocyan:
I laugh in swahili. You've not answered my question either? Do you think you can drink poison without it hurting you?

"So if you can't disprove the existence of my brother how can you disprove that he can turn into a lion".

Well I'm very sure you'll ask me to bring him to a public place and demonstrate it otherwise you'll dismiss me as a lunatic. What if I told you he died many years ago. You'll know I'm not worth your time. That is exactly how you sound right now.

I don’t understand this whatboutism.

Why do I have to disprove the existence of your brother when I never question his existence? This is pure logic which shouldn’t be lost on you.

NuissancePolice:
The question of the existence of Jesus and Mohammed is a different subject for debate. The question is, if it is true that God exists and what the bible says will happen to christians who believe in him is true, then

1. Why don't christians do greater works than Jesus christ in our era as promised? In a gathering of say a thousand christians, only one will come up with an unverifiable claim of experiencing miracles.

2. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Why is it that on an average, in a gathering of say 1000 christians,
- less than 1% claim that they have successfully casted out devils while the others don't attempt to do so?
- less than 1% claim to have picked up "serpents" or drink poison successfully. We've had verified cases of a "christian" entering lion's dens etc to prove their faith but sadly end up being killed by the hungry animals but we have never seen a documented case of a successful one.
- less than 1% of christians claim to have reportedly carried out succesful healing by laying of hands etc

BUT: a considerable number of christians speak in tongues. That is the only sign most christians claim to exhibit, while the others seem to be dormant. Could it be that the "speaking in tongues" is more in vogue because there is no way of verifying its authenticity?

Thank you. Let’s tackle each question as you outline them.

1. Acts 1:8 says “And ye shall receive power when the Holy Spirit is come upon you”. When the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples, they did greater things that what Jesus did. For you to receive a miracle, it requires FAITH. Moreover, miracles that which expect differs and while some receive miracles and come to testify, others don’t.

You using the term “unverifiable” means you are doubting some miracles. Therein lay your problem with this question.

2. How do you know those that sincerely believe. There lots of believers that still exist these signs, they cast out demons, heal the sick and all sort of divine miracles. Likewise, there are also FAKE PROPHETS, who seeks to deceive in His name. He says beware of such. He said it clearly in Matthew 7:21-23

Matthew 7:22-23 -
21- Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of iniquity”

All your other post are conjecture. Christians have no need going about to prove their “FAITH”. Jesus never instrust his disciples to start looking for serpent to tread upon or poison to drink. I have had countless experience of healing from sickness.

The problem it seems you are having is that you are looking for miracles instead of looking for God. Like we Christians use to say, Christianity is about your personal relationship with God. How God will manifest in A will differ from how he will manifest in B, it all depends on each relationship with him.

Mitocyan:
My argument is that all the supernatural things attributed to Jesus are made up and never happened like Virgin Birth, raising the dead, miracles and rising from the dead.

What proof do you have that these things didn’t happen?

Mitocyan:
Check Luke 10:19. Well I don't know if a man called Jesus existed at some point in history. But I'm sure all the supernatural things attributed to him are made up. Virgin birth, raising the dead, miracles and rising from the dead.

Luke 10:19 clearly states “Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpent and scorpions and over all power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you”.

Pls bring where he said you should go drink poison out.

So if you can’t disprove that he exist, how can you disprove the things he did.

Mitocyan:
Don't get me wrong I meant the religions were made up. And the miracles attributed to them were made up.

You are contradicting yourself. Stay one place for this argument pls.

If you are saying the religions were made up, you are basically saying Jesus didn’t exist. Is that your argument.

I’m asking you so you can clarify.

Mitocyan:
Ok seems we are getting somewhere with this. It is looking like you admit the bible was not divinely inspired like is famously claimed.

Oh and Jesus says you can thread upon snakes and drink poisons without them hurting you. So can you drink sniper like right now? Since it won't hurt you?

Like I said, I don’t do scattergun approach. You must be consistent in your argument and even if you want to jump to another thing without first clearing up the basis of our argument.

Do you agree that Jesus existed or not or you believe he was made up? Answer that without dribbling yourself. The answer should be straightforward enough.

@ the bolded, do not bring fallacy into the discussion as it erode whatever intergrity in your words. Where in the Bible did Jesus says “You can thread upon snakes and drink poison without them hurting you”? If you can make the Bible reference, it will be much appreciated.

Mitocyan:
Because they are both made up. And one copied from one. I don't want to be explicit here for sanctity sake. But I belive you know which.

So you are saying both Jesus and Mohammed never existed, right?

Mitocyan:
Lol the question is simple enough. Except you are not willing to keep an open mind in which case this intellectual exercise is futile. I'm willing to keep an open mind to your points also.

Christianity is based on the bible. The bible is made up, therefore christianity is made up. It's as simple as that.

I’m sorry but this is laughable to say the least. Your argument has to be one of the lamest I have heard from atheists (no offense intended pls).

I hope you know the Bible is a record of things that happened and prophecy of things to happen? (Especially Revelation).

Christianity is not based on the Bible. Christianity is based on Jesus Christ. Unless you want to tell me that Jesus is made up also. Is that your argument?

Mitocyan:
Haha, if a simple prayer is the answer, why don't Christian's and muslims agree?

Also "you don't see Superman but his existence is sure". See how ridiculous that sounds?

Christian and Muslim agree on what?

If you are conversant with history well, there are some basic fact that you shouldn’t even be contesting.

It is a fact that Jesus came before Mohammed.

Christianity was as a result of Jesus.

Islam was as a result of Mohammed.

Bible is the Holy book of Christians
Quran is the Holy book of Muslims

Because Jesus came before Mohammed, there no record of Mohammed in the Bible, but Jesus was mentioned several times in the Quran.

Both Christian n Muslims agree there’s a Supreme being called God.

Mitocyan:
Haha. Yeah. Is "Why Christianity is made up" a good enough topic?

I don’t understand this question kind sir.

Christianity made up? Who made it up?

@NuissancePolice

You say God is not real, care to shed more light on why you think or believe so?

@ Mitcoyan,

If we are going to argue, I don’t do the scattergun approach, let’s pick a subject matter and discuss about it.

Agreed?


You have the privilege of choosing the subject matter.

Mitocyan:
Another thing Christians and people of all other religion need to realize today is that there are so many concepts in their holy books that are borrowed from ancient religions that were in existence before theirs. Even crucial as the birth of Jesus. There was the sun god whose birth story is in close resemblance to the birth of Jesus. And these manuscripts date back before the birth of Jesus. It shouldn't come to you as a surprise that your long held believes were all made up from past stories and white wash to foster wide acceptance.

You really need a lot of reading to do in this your journey.