₦airaland Forum

almondjoy:
I hope you realize that all these "private" establishments you mentioned have government appendages.  In a country where the "people" do not havethe slightest autonomy whatsovever, how can the peolple be pro-active?

Must everyone work and live in Lagos?  It happens to be the Hub of all looting activities--just like Abuja so people flock there!

Sorry, I do not want chicken and goats in my compound.   I am not a farmer!  What will it cost?  Your life and the lives of your family and friends if any of those livestock--carries a vermin you are not familiar with.  Are you serious?   A farm in my backyard--in 2008 almost?

You think it is a hobby?  People go to school for these things you know.  With all the diseases out there from "bird flu" to "mad cow disease" you expect me to deal with livestock in 2007?  Hmmmmmmmmm!  I see you have a simple way of dealing with things.  You need to step out into the real world and time of things.  Everything--I say-everything requires the least formal education--including "agoyin" and "hairdressing" if you do not know!

Back to square one!  This is the attotude prevalent in Nigeria where things are taken for granted.  This is some serious business Laudate, and not some child's play. 

Perhaps if we invested 35million pounds multiplied by 250Naira  in educating the petty traders in Nigeria, we can get some mechanized farming educational faculties in our universities and the street hawkers will be enticed to stop hawking gala and pure water on the streets of Lagos!

We can do a lot as ordinary citizens if only the "government" empowers us to to so.  Right now we are helpless and at their mercy--ALWAYS!!!- But for how long?

@almondjoy,

I want to believe you did not take out time to digest the contents of my previous post before you posted your last comments. People kep pet dogs, cats, even hamsters in their apartments all the time. They take them to vets for vaccination. And those ones stuff them with enough drugs to keep them germ-free. So what makes you think the same thing cannot be done with chickens? Just because you are allergic to them doesn't mean every other person is. Just because you cannot grow veggies in your backyard, doesn't mean others can't. One person cannot decide for everybody. If a person doesn't want to raise chickens (maybe due to the bird flu hype), he can raise rabbits or anything else that catches his fancy. In high school, it was my job to feed the school rabbits. I did. We enjoyed having them eat off our palms, and then taking them to the markets for the traders to buy.

You claimed the establishments mentioned are govt. appendages. . . .abeg, can you be more explicit? In what sense are they govt. appendages? You also said: "In a country where the "people" do not have the slightest autonomy whatsovever, how can the peolple be pro-active. . ." Abeg, are we talking about the same Nigeria or our poor Lagos, where people do what they like, when they like & even flout laws with impunity? What other 'autonomy' do they need?

One thing I love Nigerians for, is that very few of them sit around chanting government, government, government! If there is no water, they dig boreholes. If there is no light they buy candles, or generators. By doing so, they are not absolving govt. of its' responsibilities, but easing their discomfort without inconveniencing anybody else.

Finally, at the risk of repeating myself, the subject was the Beautification Of Lagos: Pains & Losses Of Petty Traders, not how can we ensure our leaders do not loot Lagos treasury, or how do we hold our governors accountable for state funds. If you want us to digress and move over to that topic, then I would gladly oblige you.

But I can see you are only interested in making govt. a scapegoat, not answering questions on the beautification of Lagos & traders. Am not a fan, so you can have the floor to bash govt. to your heart's content. Feel free!

@almondjoy,

Oh I love this! I made a post of about thirty lines in which I addressed various issues, and you guys jumped on just one line and turned it into a circus. How hilarious. When people have nothing new to add, this is what they resort to. . . .poking fun, without making meaningful contributions!

I noticed that all other suggestions that have been made by various people from the first page to this point, have all been derided, brushed off or put down as lacking in merit. Then tomorrow someone will wake up and say questions were asked, but not answered.

Let me leave this place for all those who only want to construct shops across the breadth of Lagos, to please our most honourable street traders. . . . and ignore other things. I guess in Britain & US that we love to cite as examples, their govt. has unlimited resources, not so??

almondjoy:
Thank you Laudate.  I think we are finally getting somewhere.

Yes. We do not have many private establishment in Nigeria since the government wants to have the reigns over all aspects of the Nigerian lives.  So it is solely responsible for the mess it keeps creating.  The street traders only share a very small portion of the blame.

Hmmn. . . .my view is that both govt. and the citizens should share the blame. "States are made up of the men or people in them, so therefore we cannot have better states, until we have better men." I can't remember if it was Plato or Aristotle that made this philosophical statement. We ALL have a part to play. A lot of satellite areas are being opened up on the outskirts of Lagos state. Right now, Ogun state which shares a border with Lagos, is reaping from the property boom that Lagos residents have brought to its' doorsteps. Areas like Alagbado, Ojodu, Isheri, Ibafo are opening up and providing alternative sources of accomodation for people who work in Lagos, and are also serving as satellite business areas for those who reside there.

almondjoy:
Oh--the distribution of goods and services are handled by which sector again?  Which other sectors do you have in Nigeria if not government, government and more government?

Distribution of goods & services is handled by both private business firms and govt. In fact, there is more private sector participation in transportation, than govt. Haven't you heard of Ekene Dili Chukwu Transport Services, which handles passenger movement? Or haven't you been to the motorparks, to see the various mammy wagons, trailers and lorries that various haulage companies use to handle the freight of goods and services over land?

almondjoy:
Check to see what is left of the farming industries from the 70s-80s. All gone. So which farming do you want Nigerians to implement on now that they have discovered it is more profitable to loot?

Yes. . . .most of those farms are gone. But a few large farms still exist in various parts of the country. What am advocating however, is[i] not[/i] large-scale mechanised farming, or hi-tech agricultural orchards, but the garden-type of farms that most citizens in less developed countries have. What does it cost to raise chickens in a pen, in your compound? Or what does it cost to grow vegetables for sale in your backyard?

If those farms are dead, what have we as ordinary citizens done to revive them? An old classmate of mine, owns a fish farm on the outskirts of Lagos and makes more in a month than I do, in a quarter. In the past, people would lease unoccupied land to farm on, and then share the proceeds & farm produce with the owner. Farmers formed themselves into a co-operative to rent vehicles to get their foodstuff into town and hand them over to the traders who paid a fair price for them. Traders also rented trucks and went into the farms to buy up foodstuff and farm produce to sell at their shops, in the towns & cities.

Now, no one wants to do that anymore. Most folks want to do buying and selling, as if that is all there is to life. We need to change our mind-set. There is dignity in labour, even farm labour. We need to think of other avenues through which we can earn a living, legitimately. If the farms are dead, what can we do as ordinary citizens, to revive them? Or is it wrong, to think about doing just that? Let people stop looking down on farming.

almondjoy:
What are the causes of all these problems?  You see you only mentioned Lagos?  I know if the government were to provide for the ordinary citizens like it caters to the "Dangotes and Adeniyis" of Nigeria--Lagos will not need beautifcation. They do not have to sweat to "display" their "goods" do they? So tell me with all the wealth in Nigeria--why is Lagos congested?

Yes, I only mentioned Lagos because right from the first page, the attention has been focused on Lagos. The topic if I recall, was Beautification Of Lagos: Pains & Losses Of Petty Traders. Should I have mentioned other areas, when Lagos was the main topic?

almondjoy:
--why is Lagos congested?

Shortage of amenities.  Instead of our government officials to provide adequate housing and business centers since nothing is privatized, they are busy looting and stealing.  Take America for example, no state has it all.  Why--it was planned that way.

I agree that Lagos is congested because of shortage of amenities. I also listed other reasons why Lagos was congested in my last post before this one, without even knowing you were going to bring up this issue.

I am NOT against govt. providing more amenities, am just against govt. providing amenties in order to reward deviant behaviour. I believe I mentioned this in one of my previous posts. Provision of amenties should be done in line with projected plans, strategies and available funds, not at the expense of other amenities. That's because believe it or not., govt's resources are not infinite. The question always comes up, do we build more hospitals to give more folks access to adequate healthcare and reduce mortality rate, or more shops to house street traders that shouldn't even have been on the roads in the first place? Priority comes into play in a lot of these decisions.  

almondjoy:
See Great Britain whom Nigeria just love to emulate has started looking for ways to decongest London. More strip malls being built, flyovers replacing 2 lane roads where the royal family loved to ride their horses through. They are changing tactics and providing more alternatives for he citizens so you do not have to be stuck in the "London Fog"!

But in Nigeria, we only have Lagos, Onitsha, Aba, and maybe Ibadan.  Now in a country of 36 states, Lagos is the only congested area--why?  Because that is a business hub.  Other areas buzz because of "oil" not "trading".

Yes, Britain built flyovers to replace 2-lane roads, just like Nigeria has been trying to do in a few cities. What do you think all our First, Second and Third National Development 'Rolling' Plans were meant for? Same with the Vision 2010 document. It outlined all what govt. planned to do for its' citizens in the areas of infrastructure, telecommunication, healthcare etc. But the implementation has been faulty. If we go into that area, we will leave the main topic, and I don't want to digress.

Currently, the Ozumba Mbadiwe Avenue right up to Lekki-Epe expressway in Victoria Island which is one of the most busy routes in Lagos, is undergoing a massive reconstruction. It is being turned into a larger three lane dual-expressway that can take at least six cars abreast. By the time it is completed, it is hoped that traffic would reduce significantly on that route. But if after it is completed, traders turn one or two lanes into a market, the purpose of the entire exercise would have been defeated.

Lagos is a congested area because it is a business hub, among other reasons. I agree, partially. I feel Lagos is also congested, because people wilfully break laws that are meant to make the city function properly. One quick example, bad driving along a road that may now cause a mile-long hold up, and subject other road users to unecessary waste of time. Water pipes are laid, and people deliberately cut it and divert water flow into other premises, or remove water meters that are supposed to record the amount being used so that proper bills can be computed. Whenever this happens, other areas are deprived of water. Whose fault is that? The person who deliberately cut the water pipes and deprived others of water, or the government? Another example, a double lane meant to take two cars abreast, is reduced to one lane, because the other lane has been turned into a market. How can things function properly, if we persist in making it difficult?

Abuja was going the way of Lagos, until El-Rufai stepped in to try & restore the master plan. Now, everyone says how neat Abuja looks.

almondjoy:
Okay!  Thanks for providing us with a revised copy.   Now what is the government's responsiblities if the traders are to do most of the "revamping"--Strictly bulldozing privileges?

Govt.'s responsibilities are many & varied. But one of them is to provide a decent environment, and safeguard citizens' lives and property. Now where people open their eyes, and gladly trade along Oshodi Expressway with the high volume of vehicular traffic, tell me. . .don't you think it is safer for all those involved, to remove the traders from the points of risk, for their own safety? Have you seen the way those street hawkers dodge in-between cars in traffic & even when vehicles are moving? Why people insist on playing russian roulette with their lives in the guise of making money, is something I will never understand.

Govt. also has a responsibility to keep the streets safe, free of hazards and free of obstruction, for motorists and regular users of such roads. We can't blame govt. when street hawkers & traders take up positions around the highway, thereby posing a hazard to motorists, and then some folks turn round to say an accident shouldn't have occurred, under such a situation. Is that fair?

almondjoy:
These street hawkers had alternatives to display their wares and chose to hang around oshodi-express way or other streets in Nigeria?  How many states in Nigeria have cosmopolitan cities?  Why do you think Lagos is congested?

Lagos is congested because its' facilities are overstretched, badly maintained and yet, it witnesses an influx of fresh migrants almost on a daily basis! Secondly, people break laws with impunity, even when such laws are meant to safeguard them and other residents of the city.

As for the street hawkers having alternatives, I gave two examples in my previous posts i.e. Aswani market and Oniru market. So why are you so sure they did not have an alternative?? Most people have alternatives, but the truth is very few folks choose to explore other alternatives. We have a copy-cat, follow-follow mentality, in this country. Okeke is selling mangoes by the road side, so therefore David and Akeem must follow suit. Why??

Let me give you another little example. In my area, my neighbour noticed a girl who was always hawking pure water on the road. This woman offered her the chance to become a cleaner in their office, earning a monthly sum. The girl refused. She preferred to stay under the sun hawking her pure water, and earning little change every day.

almondjoy:
Farming--where? Do you know that farming is highly subsidized by the government in foreign countries as incentives to keep that sector afloat?  In Nigeria, you cannot guarantee a decent steady supply of power or storage facilities for perishable goods and you are talking of farming?

Gosh!  This problem is more complicated than I envisaged!

Yes, farming is subsidised by govt. in many countries but in Nigeria a few of the farming inputs are also subsidised by govt., too. We had agricultural extension centres and officers right from the sixties, until the eighties. I don't know if they are still in existence now. But then, those centres were like mini-farms, where people were recruited daily, weekly & monthly at fixed wages to carry out various agricultural activities. When DFFRI (Directorate of Food, Roads and Rural Infrastructure) tried to resucitate and modernise these farms nationwide, many of the youths shunned it. They preferred to leave their areas and head for Lagos without any certainty, that they would be able to make ends meet in that city. Anyway, DFFRI became comatose soon after, and since then not much has been heard about those extension centres.

As for storage of perishable goods, that is another part of the food distribution chain that is often handled by other arms of the business sector. The kind of farming that am advocating is the low-capital type, where a farmer rears his poultry, or a vegetable seller grows her vegetables now takes the items inside the market, to supply those who sell to the wider public. Most of the time, it isn't the trader who grows the vegetable, or rears the poultry. It isn't the butcher who rears the cattle, which he cuts into pieces and sells to the public. They all buy these things from the cattle rearers, farmers etc.

So the farmer does not have to do the job of the trader. It is a chain. Most supermarkets, hotels, hospitals, resorts and educational institutions even prefer tobuy their fresh produce directly from the farms, and they have generators to power their own refrigerators and store such food items.

almondjoy:
Is there any other way to shout that the "government" is responsible for the needs of it's citizens?

Yes, govt. is responsible for the needs of its' citizens, not just the street traders. It is also responsible for keeping the streets free of things that cause bottle-necks, so that motorists can get to their destination in time. It is also responsible for saving people from themselves, so that they do not continue playing ludo with their lives, by ensuring they do not continue trading on the roads.

almondjoy:
You think so? The polls up there are in favor of "bulldozing" without solutions.  So let us drink to more bulldozing anniveraries! I think we are in for a long and hard road to travel.

Why do you feel that those in favour of bulldozing, simply believe in "bulldozing without solutions?" Does it mean that those who are sympathetic to the "traders" plight, believe street trading, is the only way for people to make ends meet? These are my own questions. We can debate endlessly on govt. providing alternative shopping outlets, like has been done in the past to some category of traders. . . . .did it solve the problem? Spare parts traders were relocated from Lawanson to Iyana Itire in Lagos, by govt.  Did it solve the problem of street trading? Another set of traders dealing in a different category of goods, sprang up in Lawanson to replace those that had been relocated to another site.

Central Lagos island is another example. When it was felt that Idumota & co. was getting too congested, the shop owners there, were relocated to Alaba & Trade Fair site, along Ojo-Badagry Expressway by govt. Did it solve the congestion associated with Idumota? Please someone should take a trip down there and give us a situation report.

Those who think stalls on the streets should be removed, have seen 1st hand the risks or havoc of street trading, and the wahala it causes. They live with it ,and experience the chaos, hour-long traffic jams, filth and risks associated with it, on a daily basis.

Those far removed from the madding crowd, are likely to have a different view or hold a far more sympathetic perspective, since they are not on the receiving end of the wahala caused by street trading, or have not seen at close quarters,  the risks involved.

davidylan:
How does a woman's conscious right to choose her mate based on mundane issues such as race, height, wealth status, aesthetic qualities e.t.c. infringing on your rights and liberties?

Erm. . . .it infringes on the other person's right to be chosen?? Or it infringes on his liberty to be assesed purely on his own merits as a warm, rational, considerate human being, instead of just another faceless man from X ethnic group, who may be seen as likely to exhibit certain peculiar traits, based on the fact that he just happens to come from that group? Or it deprives the guy of the chance to widen his circle of friends, by adding her to the list? Alright, am joking.

But the truth still remains. . . .what that girl did was 'discrimination'. . .pure & simple. We may try to 'sugar-coat' any way, we like. You are free to see it as 'freedom of choice'. And I'm free to see it as discrimination based on tribal or ethnic grounds.

End of story!

birdman:
i have to scratch my head on this one. Its like we want Nigeria to develop, but we don't want to put in the work. Enough with the "if only govt. had done this, i wouldnt do that" mentality. Haba, we are not animals. Bulldozers shouldnt be necessary because people should have the common sense not to just set up shop ON THE ROAD.

Wa'sere, my guy! May you live long! Thank you for telling it like it is! Na di thing wey we don dey talk since be that! Abeg, am tired of repeating myself. . . . .

almondjoy:
No, it will go down well with some of us only if you answer the questions posed to you.  Having slept well last night, I feel I can address this matter as I feel strongly about it.

If you observe closely--we are all saying the same thing.  The only problem is that people like you refuse to propose long term solutions and alternatives for what is not working at the moment.  This is where we have the main disagreement.

Yes--the street traders are wrong.  But how do we fix this problem on the long run so we can have streets like mine in "San Francisco"?  Instead you want to say you care about the welfare and safety of the street traders while you propose taking away their means of livelihood in the same breath.  

When you care about a person--you do not choose what aspects you want to care about--you take care of the whole being to the best of your ability.  That is the function of a "working" government.

@Laudate

Let us get past that and see if we can move on from our "stuttering" argument for a while. Just for the records, what do you advocate as long term solutions for the menace of street trading in Nigeria, not just "beautiful Eko"?

Almondjoy, I have always answered questions posed to me. Right from the beginning of this thread. My suggestions initially were:

1). Let the traders get off the streets and go to other markets where stalls or shops are cheaper, in order to continue their trade. Not all markets in Lagos, have very expensive shops.; Please refer to my post « #41 on: October 03, 2007, 02:21 PM »

2). Let the traders make use of open spaces within the markets, to display their wares, instead of ignoring such spaces & heading for the roads. I remember giving the example of Aswani market in my previous post; Again, please go to post no. « #41 on: October 03, 2007, 02:21 PM ». It is in there. Also check post no. « #91 on: October 03, 2007, 06:42 PM » for another example.

3). Try & enforce sanctions that would compel people to change their behaviour. Arrest 'buyers' as a deterrent. I know it sounds drastic, but it would stop most folks in their tracks, if they know they are likely to be arrested for patronising street traders. Without buyers, there would be no sellers. This was stated in post no. « #35 on: October 03, 2007, 12:21 PM ».

4). This is a new suggestion - local govt. councils should encourage people at the grassroots level to think of other sources of livelihood. Not everyone needs to be a trader. Some do it, just because they see others doing it, not because they have the skills or motivation to get involved in it. From hair-dressing, to pepper-grinding, cake-baking, gardening, child-care or nanny services, tailoring, laundry or washerman services, cookery, janitorial services, etc. - there are lots of other areas people can tap, to make money. Such local govt. councils can hold rallies or host entrepreneurship classes, that would give people enough information about business opportunities. They can partner with radio stations and local media to publicise such info. The old People's bank and NDE schemes released such businesses info. regularly, and made cheap funds available to school leavers as well as retirees, so that they could set up small-scale businesses. But what happened at the end of the day? Many people collected the money, some diverted it to personal use, while others squandered it or couldn't pay back. Very few, actually made use of it in a sensible manner. Now the bank has gone under and the NDE scheme is comatose.

5). Someone mentioned farming, and other people laughed. Dcdal said it clearly in his post no. « #65 on: October 03, 2007, 03:58 PM & post no. #70 on: October 03, 2007, 04:26 PM . In several cities in the world, farming is a good way of earning an income. From growing vegetables in your backyard, to snail rearing, poultry-keeping and fish farming, people have found ways to make ends meet by engaging in agricultural activities. New agricultural methods exist, that can give higher yields of products. But a lot of people look down on such suggestions. Maybe they feel they would earn more money from street trading, than poultry-rearing or other farming activities. How would I know?

6). Eko cannot be made' beautiful', if we allow every nook and corner to be turned into a street market. Already, previous govt. agencies have convinced some banks and multi-national companies to adopt various round-abouts, street corners & open fields, and turn them into recreational parks or beautifully landscaped gardens. I believe this is still going on, and would help in no small measure to turn various parts of Lagos into a decent environment.

adeniyi83:
Aint crying, am just pissed @ the girl's attitude. This is not the first time i am experiecing it; though on other occassion was from uneducated people, but from educated person; its totally crazy.

I was once told by my teacher education was not just books; but also morals.

Your teacher was very correct, o jare! And I do hope people would stop thinking good behaviour is solely influenced by this "education" thingy. . . .I have seen university professors exhibiting naked tribalism & nepotism, right within the ivory tower. True!!

londoner:
you do have a point that we are all prejudice to some point, knowingly or not. That is the simple truth for many people, in fact most people probably. I think to acknowledge some of the things we often do doesn't mean that its automatically the right way to go about things. As far as Davidylans point about not depriving people of their individual rights, sometimes "isms" do motivate people to take away a persons right. Sometimes rights are incompatible, what happens when someones supposed right to discriminate collides with another persons right not to be discriminated against?

Hmmmn. . . . . .true! In other words, the freedom to swing your arms ends where my nose begins.

RichyBlacK:
I can't believe someone can say "there is nothing wrong with tribalism", go on to compare humans with amala and iyan, and then confuse "choice" with "prejudice".

@poster, fashie that babe one time! You no need that kin yeye human being for your life. Babes full ground. No waste anytime with that kin person, I take God beg you. If she no talk to you, no give am any face. Nonsense! If the babe jam solid Igbo guy, she think say the guy go get time for am? She jam solid Yoruba guy wey like am die, she dey do shakara. After when she cross thirty, she go turn born-again dey look for bobos inside church. Thunder fire her head. Forget about her immediately!

Tribalists and racists, are just people with a high dose of inferiority complex. They're usually people who have experienced discrimination in their past, and have come to see it as the only way of existing.

Richyblack, you are THE man!! Pre-ee-each it, bro'!!! I say. . . .pree-ea-ach!! Abeg, make I laugh, well. . .well!!

RichyBlacK:
You may be a superhuman and have no feelings whatsoever when someone discriminates against you because of your ethnic origin. However, the vast majority of humans will feel bad if they are discriminated against - they are not superhumans like you. And stop saying that they are selfish! With that kind of circuitous logic, every expression of sadness, pain, or grief would be a selfish act. I mean, someone is deliberately hurt by someone else, and the victim is in pain, and all you can come up with is something like: "Stop crying, you're being selfish! You wanted the guy to miss hitting your head with the baseball bat, but he did not miss. He hit your head with the bat and that's that. It did not go the way you wanted - you're just selfish crying like that". Horrible!!!

I agree that we humans have all kinds of negative tendencies, however, the long-term goal of civilization is to separate us from those tendencies. Many of us have felt like beheading one or two people but have not done it; like screwing a neighbor's lonely wife but suppressed the thought; like calling a girl "biatch!" but have just kept quiet; like smashing an ex-boyfriend's car's windscreen but walked away. We exercise restraint on ourselves and do not act out all we want to do. Human nature is not perfect. If not for the struggles of the so-called akatas (as you referred to them), you think you'll be enjoying America as a black person today? They struggled against the human tendency to discriminate based on race and ethnicity. And today, you're enjoying from that struggle, whether you're courageous enough to admit it or not!

WORD!! That was deep, man!! Thank you for expressing it all so well.  Nothing more to add.

dayokanu:
People would come here and complain that Lagos is dirty and that Abuja is neat yet they complain when Lagos wants to do what Abuja did to clean up.

Why should govt stop yahoo boys and not provide a means of livelihood for them as they might resort to roberry. This is analogous to the argument above.
Why should govt wage war against crime when they have been doing it ever since and it does not work.

If you feel you can erect stalls anywhere and deface the environment, the govt too has the right to demolish your stall without any apology.

Ah omo, this was similar to the line of reasoning I took, when I disagreed with the concept of govt. providing shops for street traders who had displayed their wares on roads, highways and railway tracks, because it would be like rewarding bad/wrong behaviour.

Some of them might start thinking " ah. . .all I have to do is set up shop anywhere on the street and start selling, or just line the railway tracks with my wares, because I know that soon in order to get rid of me, govt. will give me a stall once they see me on the streets, hawking or selling my wares." It could set up a bad precedent.

So even though I share your sentiments, I must tell you it won't go down well with some people in here. So I have decided to hold my peace.

Kobojunkie:
I throw my hands up on the @Laudate issue. He does not seem to get it that he does not bother to read before typing out a comeback. How do you answer comebacks that are not even remotely related to what is being discussed.

I have watched us Nigerians do this over and over. Infact I can confidently say that is the main problem in africa. We do not spend time on issues before we leap. We jump to pour sand on the roads to fix it for this minute without considering the next minute and 30 years from now and the consequences of our actions. I do hope the new government is at least wise enough to consider the future as he works cause that has been the mistake of the past and repeating it again is just no longer acceptable by those of us who are sick and tired of the way things have been going on for decades in that place now.

Please throw your hands up very well o, at least in public where everyone can see them.

You asked questions and claimed that I attributed statements to you, that you never made. I pointed out where you had made certain comments, and where I had now raised new questions, based on those previous comments you had earlier made. I even cited places where I had made certain statements, and you had wrongly interpreted it to mean that I was quoting you. Instead of acknowledging where the misunderstanding came from, due to your wrong interpretation of my comments, you are now claiming that "Laudate does not get it". How??

You are the one that doesn't get it . Didn't you study English comprehension in school? So why do you find it so difficult to understand what has been written? Why do you find it so hard to accept the fact that you made a mistake, in understanding or interpreting my comments. . . . .and then move on? Must everyone agree with you on every point? I weak o!

From now on, I will reserve my comments for those who have a better grasp of the issues on ground, rather than those who waffle around, wailing that they did not say a particular thing, just because they cannot differentiate between facts, issues, and subsequent questions based on prior comments made, even after detailed explanations have been given.

A lot of folks have read my posts on this forum. And this is the first time that someone would claim that "I throw my hands up on the @Laudate issue. He does not seem to get it that he does not bother to read before typing out a comeback. How do you answer comebacks that are not even remotely related to what is being discussed."

What comeback was made, that was NOT remotely related to the issue being discussed? Was it the examples I gave, that everyone else read and understood, except you?? Or was it the reasons I gave, for sticking to my own position that street trading should be abolished? Oh well. . . .I guess there is always a first time for everything, and one has to make allowances for slow learners like you.

Don't even bother to respond, because I know you will still find it difficult to understand all I have just written.

Kobojunkie:
[quote author=laudate
I have answered the question in each of my previous posts. How many times do you want me to repeat myself. It is RISKY selling along the roadside or on the streets or on railway tracks, because the streets & railway lines were NOT designed for such things in the first place. Can you understand that, or is it too 'twisted' for you to decode? 

What is bad, is bad. Don't let us give excuses, and say just because the street traders have been there for a long time, so therefore it doesn't matter, let us leave them there.

( What EXCUSES DO YOU SEE ME GIVING IN MY POST ?? PLEASE POINT THEM OUT FOR ALL TO SEE )

@Kobojunkie, Your excuse was given in a previous post where you said the traders had been on the road for decades:

Kobojunkie: Quote from: Kobojunkie on Today at 04:28:52 PM
Let me repeat myself, and I hope you will read my post. These traders HAVE been on these roads for decades now. Selling their wares with the cars and other vehicles right there with them. Why the SUDDEN move to care that a car or something might hit them today as if to say cars have just been introduced or something has changed in the original equation?

So my response to you was: "Don't let us give excuses, and say just because the street traders have been there for a long time, so therefore it doesn't matter, let us leave them there." I can see you have a problem differentiating between my own comments to you, and new questions I raised, based on statements you had earlier made.

You also said:

Kobojunkie: Someone gave an example of how it was illegal to hawk on the streets of London and other cities. So is it alright to do so, in Nigeria? ( WHERE IN MY STATEMENT THERE DID YOU GET THIS FROM   It is a simple question. The fact that it has been with us for a long time, does that now make it right? A lot of vices have been in Naija for ages, does the length of time matter? WHERE IN ALL MY POSTS SO FAR DID YOU GET THIS FROM I MEAN MY CLAIMING IT IS ALRIGHT ?? OR ANYONE AS A MATTER OF FACT DOING THAT   Has length of time ever turned a vice into virtue?

Please go back & re-read my posts again. I didn't say YOU made this statement, in my last post. My exact words were "some one gave an example, " not "Kobojunkie said " even though you had earlier made a comment that:

Kobojunkie: "HAwk in the streets of London or even here in Columbus?? You will get the TICKET sent to you by mail with a picture of you caught in the act and if you do not pay up. ."

It was clearly stated in your earlier post no.« #94: Yesterday at 07:50:43 PM ». Do you recall? Or would you like me to break it down further for you??! So please do not ask me again, where I got it from. It came straight from you.

Based on that statement, then I now posed my own questions: "So is it alright to do so, in Nigeria? It is a simple question. The fact that it has been with us for a long time, does that now make it right? A lot of vices have been in Naija for ages, does the length of time matter?" I never claimed that YOU said 'it was alright or anyone as a matter of fact doing that'. . .to use your own words. Learn to differentiate between new questions and old comments, and seek for the spirit of discernment.

My reference to length of time, was actually based on your earlier comment « #108 on: Today at 04:28:52 PM » where you stated that the traders had been there for decades (do you recall?) and that 'suddenly there is now a reference to cars'. Now can you understand all this? I asked those questions, based on statements that had been made earlier on by others, before your last post came up.

Please try and understand my posts, before jumping to conclusions, and claiming that I said you made a particular comment.

Any further questions?

denex:
The fact that a lot of people have refused to attribute these occurrences in Aba to Sharia, Al Qaeda, Islamic Extremism or Christian Crusades, but rather to the actions of some retarded barbaric elements should as well make us realise that when such things happen in the northern part of the country, we should give the same consideration.

Denex, why you dey find trouble now??!! Let them attribute whatever they like, to whatever they want! How else would we be able to seperate the morons from the intellectuals, ehn? Tell me!

Kobojunkie:
Look @Laudate,


it is beginning to dawn on me that instead of reading and answering posts as is, you tend to take your own twist and add your own to it to make it seem that one is playing a game or VICTIM AND HERO with you or something. Do you mind not even bother replying my posts if you CANNOT stick to answering as is without trying to play the I CAN READ YOUR MIND EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE 1000's OF MILES AWAY FROM ME game??

I find it very ridiculous that you would see such a simple question as the one I posted to Tawa up there and then run off with your game with it. Please consider me one of those you should not even bother with since you can not even hold a civil conversation without going off topic every single time.

And this is likely to be my own last response to you, on this issue.

The last post I made was a direct response to your own question which was directed at me.
You asked a question, and I answered it. No one tried to 'read your mind,' at least not me. So what is your point?

And how did I run off with "your game on it," to use your own words?? You claimed that: "instead of reading and answering posts as is, you tend to take your own twist and add your own to it to make it seem that one is playing a game or VICTIM AND HERO. . . ." In what way did I ''twist" anything, here? Please spell it out in chapter & verse o! Who started the so-called 'game', and how was it played? And what exactly was uncivil in my conversation? Please point it out in black & white!

Kobojunkie, kindly stick to the facts. If you can't, please don't bother to respond. This is a public forum, where different views are aired. Everyone is free to contribute to any topic, they see fit. If God wanted everyone to have the same opinion, He would have created clones!

@ Debosky,

Abeg, leave matter for Mathias, jare.

May those who have ears to hear. . . .hear. Those who also have eyes to 'see', let them see. People would rather rely on stereotypes, hearsay and backward, ingrained attitudes, rather than look around or study the reality on ground, to know the true state of things. Just siddon dey look, my brother.

At first, the excuse was that Lagos was not a yoruba town. I posted links and research studies that had been conducted by various people, to show that it was one, according to historians.

Later, they came up with another excuse that people from other ethnic groups should be allowed to contest elections. It was pointed out that this had been done in the past.

In the same vein, another 'ideology that people from different ethnic backgrounds should be given 'property rights' in Lagos, was also thrown up. Again, it was pointed out that this has been going on for ages. To the best of my knowledge, once you have your money you are free to buy land, houses or shops in Lagos. Property transactions are freely advertised. In fact, let me see. . . .I have lost count of the number of streets (not houses o!) named after people of other ethnic groups, in Lagos.

Some folks like Donzman are bent on making it seem as if those from other ethnic groups, have been deprived of certain basic rights in Lagos, even when there is evidence pointing to the contrary. Like I said before: siddon look. Let us see what they will come up with, next!

Donzman:
@Laudate

You have problems with reasoning, major problems. What is so hard to understand?

Donzman never said there weren't people occupying Lagos since God knows when. Donzman is saying that present day Lagos is multiethnic as multiethnic can get and the leadership of Lagos state should represent that multiethnicity.

If your reasoning is solid, then you will have to agree that a Nigerian guy becoming mayor in Ireland is wrong by extension, do you agree with that?

All these essays you're writing means NOTHING. Do you agree that the leadership of Lagos should reperesent the ethnic composition of the state because Lagos is part of the Federal Republic of Nigeria and not Republic of Yorubaland. Lagos is part of Nigeria and at such, every Nigerian ideally should have equal rights there.

Nah!! You are the one that has problems processing logical thought. Now go back to my previous post where I told you that Lagos had an Igbo mayor, in the sixties. Read everything I wrote there. Was that a mono-cultural activity or simply multi-culturalism/multi-ethnicism at play? Try to also read one of my previous posts _{(«No. #46 on: September 26, 2007, 03:50 PM »),} where I spoke about Igbo people owning property in Lagos, and then see if you can understand the points I made, there.    The reason I made that response was because, you had made the following comment in a previous post:

Donzman: Every Nigerian should have equal rights anywhere in the federation, PH and Lagos included regardless of ethnic background. You know, the right to vote and be voted for, own property, rights to economic participation and etcetera.

Do you remember?

You were the one belly-aching about how people from other ethnic groups should be allowed to contest elections. Am yet to see anyone step out and claim that he or she was denied a chance to contest in Lagos, because he or she was not an indigene. The Fresh Party run by Chris Okotie fielded an Igbo woman married to an Edo man, as their governorship candidate in Lagos, during the last elections. Did anyone within her party, deny her the chance to contest on the platform of the party, simply because she was a non-indigene?

Please go and do some research before you make any responses here. You have started this same pattern of posting illogical arguments, like you did on other threads. Its' a pity, really. Try & free your mind.

And finally, stop clutching at straws. No one is debating the merit or demerit of a Nigerian becoming a mayor in Ireland. Kindly remember that I personally gave you an example of an Igbo woman becoming a mayor in Lagos, in the past. So let me repeat the piece of advice I gave you earlier: Free your mind!

Kobojunkie:
Since she decided it was best for her to forego this dude cause of his tribe, why is that a bad thing? We have done it for ages now and we are doing it now by deciding she is wrong simply cause she decided to exercise her right to choose what she wants to go for or not. It is not like she stabbed the dude or something!!! there is nothing wrong with tribalism, I say the problem is people deciding it is there place to tell others how to behave not based on facts but feelings which are in themselves selfish to a great extent.

Just because you see nothing wrong with a particular act, does not mean others would see it the same way or that they should also follow your lead. You claim there is nothing wrong with tribalism?? Jeez!! Have you ever been denied a job simply on the basis of your ethnic origin? Have you ever had a wrong set of motives ascribed to your actions, simply because you come from a particular part of the country? Have you ever lost an opportunity, just because you speak a language different from the one some folks want to hear? Can you tell me if there is anything 'good' in all these scenarios painted here? If you find it perfectly acceptable to be on the receiving end of such treat ment, then maybe you are right to say "there is nothing wrong with tribalism. "

Alright, maybe you can tell me what is right about tribalism, so that I can see the 'good' inherent in it, that has led you to conclude that nothing is wrong with it.

Kobojunkie:
Let me repeat myself, and I hope you will read my post. These traders HAVE been on these roads for decades now. Selling their wares with the cars and other vehicles right there with them. Why the SUDDEN move to care that a car or something might hit them today as if to say cars have just been introduced or something has changed in the original equation? if you want to put me down so you can play hero, I am good. Just at least ANSWER THE QUESTION AS IT IS WRITTEN, not twist it to earn brownie points or something

I have answered the question in each of my previous posts. How many times do you want me to repeat myself. It is RISKY selling along the roadside or on the streets or on railway tracks, because the streets & railway lines were NOT designed for such things in the first place. Can you understand that, or is it too 'twisted' for you to decode?

What is bad, is bad. Don't let us give excuses, and say just because the street traders have been there for a long time, so therefore it doesn't matter, let us leave them there.

Someone gave an example of how it was illegal to hawk on the streets of London and other cities. So is it alright to do so, in Nigeria? It is a simple question. The fact that it has been with us for a long time, does that now make it right? A lot of vices have been in Naija for ages, does the length of time matter? Has length of time ever turned a vice into virtue?

I was at Ikeja railway juction a few years ago, when the Chinese people rehabilitated a few trains and decided to put them in service. Some of those who had turned that part of the railway line, into their trading post merely escaped death by whiskers. A few of them were NOT so lucky. It was a sad sight.

Once, I arrived at a popular bus-stop in Lagos, shortly after a danfo had rammed into some street hawkers, who were barely in their teens. Onlookers gazed on speechless, and some started wailing. Would it have brought them back to life? No.

I don't know how else I can make my points clear enough for you to understand. But while I do not agree with your own views, I respect the fact that you have a right to them, just as I would expect you to respect mine, and stop trying to make a mockery of the whole issue, simply because I do not buy into your particular brand of logic.

Those who see nothing wrong in street trading can now have the floor. Am out.

Big B1:
I don't care where this type of barbaric action takes place in Nigeria, the fact stays the same, it is absolutely Retarded.
If it was up to me, the individual that implemented or initiated the policy will spend the rest of his retarded life in prison.

Ladies are precious; their activities and presence in any community are priceless. They (all ages) must be appreciated and treated with respect at all time.

Anything less is retarded and uncivilized!

Noted. Then you should have described the activities of the Task force as 'retarded', not the entire area called Aba.

londoner:
No need to assume I didn't have an open mind . You are stuck on the fact that stereotypes were cited and not the reason why, What was Nwando's point.
There was a thread created about Igbo women stereotype concerning money, it singled out one ethnic group, people came on and said yes there is an Igbo stereotype but, its not just Igbo women who love money, why would I be offended at that particular statement. should I hold on to the fact that the poster mentioned the stereotype, or his whole point, that its not only Igbos.

You say Nwando was no balanced because specific Yoruba stereotypes were cited, fair enough, but in your replies you only focused on Igbo stereotypes of others, was that any more  balanced ?

I also have Yoruba and relatives from the North,

My response to her was based on the stereotypes she used. Period. I also used a stereotype directed at Northerners, when I mentioned the word 'nama', to illustrate my points. So what is your beef? Do you feel I should have cited stereotypes based on every other single ethnic group in Nigeria, when the particular post I was responding to, was based on stereotypes that was restricted to just one ethnic group?

nwando:
Hang around long enough,laudate is not someone to waste time and respond to.
Don't waste your saliva.
Most of the time I don't read her posts.
I hate when people write long speeches that make no sense.
especially when they're struggling to sound intelligent.
when it's obvious it's a struggle.

How did you know that my post was not only long, but made no sense if you didn't read it? Please keep up the good work. I just love it, when people put their foot in their mouths.

By the way, what was your old user-name on Nairaland? Something tells me you have been hanging around these parts for a long time.

@ Londoner,

Please go back to Nwando's post and re-read it again with an open mind. Imagine you were from a different ethnic group, (not from the Igbo or Yoruba ethnic group) and tell me what thoughts would spring to your mind, after going through that post.

If she needed to cite examples of ethnic intolerance, why didn't she use those she had heard pertaining to her own tribe, to state whatever point she was trying to make? Am not Igbo, neither am I, Yoruba. But I have relatives drawn from BOTH ethnic groups (as well as eight other tribes), and I find it very nauseating, when people pass such silly comments around.

I did not react in defense. She picked on one particular ethnic group, and gave 3 rather derogatory examples about that same group, then turned round to say others made an unsavoury comment about her own ethnic group. Isn't that rather odd? If the shoe were on the other foot, would her perspective have been different? Balance, is the keyword here. I didn't see that, in her comments.

Kobojunkie:
My next question, street trading has been a part of the city for decades, heck, I would guess even before you and I were born, why is a car running off the road into these traders suddenly a problem??

Do you wish these street traders well, at all? When these roads were constructed, were they meant to serve as trading points for traders? So they should continue to endanger their lives, by buying & selling along the road, while you sit in your own cosy corner far away from the 'wahala' of Lagos traffic?
Chei!!

Big B1:
Personally, I prefer my ol' lady in a sturdy twilled jeans trouser. It does something energetic to my mind and keeps constant blood circulation in my system.
Therefore, for now, Aba is not my cup of tea; and I know to stay away from this retarded area.

What is 'retarded' about Aba??

Big B1:
Trust me, it will still rain, the moon will still glow and the sun will continue to shine.

Absolutely, nobody cares

True!!

londoner:
@ Laudate, I think we know that various ethnic groups hold negative stereotypes about eachother Igbo, Yoruba etc. It seems like you are being  defensive of Yoruba's, its good to do that, but if and when you hear Yoruba people saying negative stereotypes about Igbos, Hausa's etc, I hope you also are just as defensive. If not, then maybe you need to ask yourself why not.

Is the comment "omo Igbo eats stone without drinking water" the worst Igbo stereotype you have heard? Nwando clearly said that these same people who fit into these Yoruba stereotypes exist in other tribes, yet you ignored that because you were acting on a knee jerk reaction.

Londoner, please go through all my other posts on this forum. I have defended Yoruba, Hausa, Efik even Igbo, when such silly comments were made. In this case, I specifically responded to her comments about Yorubas in my last response, simply because she picked on just one ethnic group in her post- yorubas. If she had passed nasty comments about Ijaw, Efik, Edo etc. other ethnic groups in that post, I would have taken her up on it as well.

Like I said earlier, most folks feel offended when people from other ethnic groups make uncomplimentary comments about their own tribe. Yet, you would find other folks who share the same ethnic background with them, making remarks that are just as derogatory about others. And they would pretend not to notice.

For every comment people have made like "omo Igbo eats stone without drinking water," I have also heard those who used words like "Ofei mmanu -eaters of oily soup, filthy pigs, tricksters as well as 'backstabbers,'" to describe folks from another tribe. Some even use words like "nama" meaning 'cattle', to describe people from another part of the country.

Tell me, just where does it stop?

English1:
I get intrigued by this Yoruba attitude towards older people, and what would happen in some situations,

(I'm not criticising the Yoruba custom at all, wouldn't the world be boring if we all did things in the same way).

What would happen if,

You get a young boss and an older employee, how do they work out who gets treated with the most 'respect'. Would the boss still call the employee aunty or uncle, or not, as the boss is in a superior position to the older person?

I hope the Yoruba folks would show up and give you more answers, but from the little I have seen in the Nigerian workplace, it usually depends on the person involved. Where there is a young boss and an older employee, you could adress him by his or her full names i.e. Mr. ABC or Mrs. XYZ. Or if it is an informal Nigerian office, where cultural norms are strong, you could address such a person by their first child's name i.e. Baba David or Mama Margaret. Not aunty or uncle. That is so tacky.

English1:
What do you do if the older person doesn't really deserve any respect. Let's face it, not everyone improves with age. Supposing they were lazy, stupid, and involved in criminal activities. Do you still have to show 'respect' to them if you are younger? How do you feel about having to do that? Don't you find it hypocritical to demonstrate 'respect' to someone you don't respect?

Well, maybe the Yoruba folks could answer this one better. . . .but what I have seen them do, is that they still refer to the person by his title, or full name, or the Baba David style kind-of-address. But then, they make their displeasure known in a clear manner, without mincing words.

If the person refuses to change, he is either ostracised or they keep him at arms length or act aloof, when they are with him. For most people within that culture, they feel respect must also be earned, for you to be able to keep it. I think due to their culture, respect is first given. But then the recipient of such respect also has to work, to keep that respect. Where he shows himself unworthy of such respect, then. . . .through their actions, they make it clear that they will not kow-tow to him, or they will disregard his opinions or wishes whenever they can.

English1:
I might find out the answer to my first question - I've just taken on an older Yoruba man to be my assistant at work. He starts in a few weeks time but we are a first-name company, even to the owner of the company (who is also Yoruba).

erm. . . .why not just ask the man, how he would like to be addressed?

nwando:
Let me give a quote from a dear cousin who married a Yoruba man

"My worst enemy will not marry Yoruba"

_{I have met the man,he is classic ADHD and needs medication}

A quote from my best friend in high school who was once married to a Yoruba man

"I wish I had listened to my dad's dying words"

A quote from my neighbor who is still married to a Yoruba man

"He has such a sincere loving heart,but Yoruba men are a little lazy"

These stereotypes may just be because these ladies happened to marry the efulefus amongst Yoruba men.[/b]These same efulefus exist in other tribes.

There's a big advantage in marrying from your tribe,at least their ills won't be visited on a whole tribe and the cultural differences won't be there.
Even in Nigerian Christian churches in the USA,Yorubas tend to hang with Yorubas and Igbos with Igbos.
It is purely human nature to tend to gravitate with your kind.
It becomes criminal when you treat people differently because of their tribe.
[b]Omo Ibo who eats stone without drinking water is not meant to be a compliment.
The image that is formed in the heart of a child who hears this continually is not a pretty one

Oh, so because some misguided person passed such an unfortunate comment like "Omo Ibo who eats stone without drinking water," you feel it is such a big issue? Do you know how many uncomplimentary epithets and descriptions that Igbo people have passed about Yorubas, Hausas, Fulanis, Efik, Ijaw, Kalabari, Edo and other ethnic groups?? Would you like people to start listing them for you? Should every member of those groups start complaining, feeling bitter or rise up in arms against their fellow Igbo citizens? Abeg, make we leave matter for Mathias. Just as other groups make silly remarks about Nd'Igbo, I have heard them too make very nasty remarks about other ethnic groups. Let us toss all these stereotypes aside. The good, the bad & the ugly, exist in every single ethnic group. Period. 

All those comments you made earlier such as: "My worst enemy will not marry Yoruba" Well, I have heard some people from other ethnic groups too, passing the same kind of comments about their Igbo spouse. Do we now judge an entire ethnic group based on the experiences of one or two persons? I know quite a number of Igbo women who are married to yoruba men, and they hold a totally different view. One of them has been with her Yoruba husband for over thirty years, and always describes him as a wonderful man. The guy paid the fees of her younger brothers and also sent them abroad. Meanwhile she has now become an industrialist with about four houses in her own name, just like her husband. She actually built one of them, right next to her husband's house, in his hometown.
I can give you her name & address if you like.

Another comment from you: "I wish I had listened to my dad's dying words" Hehehe. . . . .I laughed when I heard this one. I have heard folks who married within their own ethnic group, also making such comments, especially when they are in a bad marriage. In fact, one of our neighbours who married from her village made this same observation, when her husband left her to marry another lady. Guess where she came from?

Finally, this last one takes the cake: "He has such a sincere loving heart,but Yoruba men are a little lazy". Oh dear. . . .how many Yoruba men was this person married to, for her to have arrived at this conclusion? Five? Ten? Twenty? Abeg, let us know o. When next I see my Yoruba friends, I must ask them the proportion of their men that fit this stereotype!! Hehehe. . . .

nwando:
so what was the mighty lesson they needed to learn since your testicles seem to be jumping up and down seeking attention ?

Why not allow the people I mentioned to answer? Wetin concern you for inside? Or are they your relatives?

And why are you chanting the word 'testicles' all of a sudden? Are you okay? Or have you been deprived of the pleasure of seeing that part of the male anatomy for a while? Let us know o!