₦airaland Forum

@Ocho cinco,

I beg no mind them. When some folks have nothing tangible to say, they elevate frivolity to a high art! Nothing wey person no go see for nairaland. Now they have suddenly switched from the main topic, to start a debating Laudate's gender. Omo,  I beg siddon look. And watch how they'll end up shooting themselves in the foot. . . . .yet again! Wey my guguru & groundnut, sef?? Make I relax dey watch free show!!

[quote author=I-man link=topic=82702.msg1568132#msg1568132 date=1191854916]@laudate

I have been calling you a "she" since April as 4Play,alternatively,I have called you a transvestite.Which one do you prefer,she or tranny? See as you dey follow me around for 6 consecutive months,what can I do for you leave me alone? [/quote]Hehehe. . . . .thank God say you don finally confess say you get more than one identity. How many remain wey you never confess?? You have called me all kinds of names for ages, and I have realised for a long time, that you are an attention seeker. That is why I often dismiss your far-fetched claims. Now you are alleging that I have been following you around, (God forbid thing!) when di evidence is clear say na you dey first call my name. So na who dey follow who for here?

Abeg, make everyone go search I-man's posts, to confirm the truth.

And for the last time, why are you so obsesssed with my gender??! Dem send you??

almondjoy:
No insult intended brov! We can have different views but please can yours appeal to the rational mind for just once?

Oh my comments do appeal to the rational mind, but your own comments defy description.

almondjoy:
Just an observation. Not holding any brief for "nwando" but just to shed more light on your question. If "nwando" has to end up in some bushes to be frisked before experiencing the ultimate "highway kings and queens" of the "student" body.

Like I said before, let nwando speak for herself. Na wetin be yah own??

almondjoy:
What does the word "almajiris" mean for Nairaland's sake? Never heard that one.

E don tay wey you comot from Naija be dat!!

[quote author=I-man link=topic=82702.msg1568067#msg1568067 date=1191853865]PS:Laudate is a confirmed ignoramus,she has  been chasing me around Nairaland for ages.    [/quote]I actually feel sorry for all those who can't make up their minds on what I'm supposed to be and keep losing sleep over my gender! Some folks address me as a "he." Others like nwando a.k.a babyosisi a.k.a +osisi insist on addressing me as a "she." Without any proof or evidence. Now you have joined the band-wagon too, and you have started using the pronoun "she," for me.

Na that be yah problem, sha! I don forget say you be expert in this 'follow-follow', copy-cat business!

Uche2nna:
You can't read or hold an argument on any thread without some dudes trying to get personal. Now Iman and Laudate wants to keep up the trend. Dudes, read the topic of the thread and stick to the topic


@ Iman
I read your post on the football thread. I was not talking about football fans sparring. But if u saw nothing wrong with it, that is ok.

Ogbuefi, I beg - direct that admonition to I-man. He started it. The guy seems to be obsessed with Laudate. There is a history behind his antics!

davidylan:
More people exhibiting "Afam syndrome". Sent your bible through Saudi Airways just yet?

Define what you mean by Afam syndrome. It wasn't inside the dictionary when I searched.

And why are you concerned about my sending a Bible through Saudi airways? Is it only Saudi airways that flies into that country, or is there someone you want me to send it to there? What is the destination address?

davidylan:
@ Laudate . . . yawn. I am not complaining about people who dish dirt, no way. Why should i care what faceless goons have to say? 
My only problem is with those who use them as a last resort, people like you who have been exposed as numbskulls now struggling to hide under personal attacks to save face.

"Personal attacks" in what sense? Where and when did I personally attack you?

Oh, you referred to me as a numbskull! Wow! See who is dishing out the personal attacks, now??

[quote author=I-man link=topic=82702.msg1567921#msg1567921 date=1191851248]What is clear is that you don't know the meaning of words you use.Nobody here,not even Denex I despise,can be branded a "religious extremist".

Laudate is a blithering ignoramus who excells in matters of tribalism in Nigeria but is remarkably clueless about the outside world.[/quote]Oh dear. . . .you want me to notice that you still exist! Seeking for attention as usual, ehn? Am sure you see visions of me in your dreams!

Now tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. . . .were you starved of 'attention' as a baby? Is that why you are now so desperate for it? I asked you this question in another thread and you took off, without giving an answer. Oya, spit it out now. . .don't be shy!!

davidylan:
hahaha What a bunch of morons we have here. Anytime they lose the plot the next thing is to jump on the personal attack bandwagon. 4 blockheads put together and they still can't figure out the fact that the Vatican city is a church and not an independent nation in the way that you would descriibe Saudi Arabia.
I have never discussed the Roman Catholic church here on the politics thread, how do you then know that i have shown ignorance on issues concerning the roman catholic church?

What has Europe got to do with the issue? How can i show ignorance on an issue that we were not even talking about?

Rome? What has Rome got to do with this?

the Vatican? Take your head out of your ass, where is the vatican cities political parties and national football team? And you claim i have shown ignorance on that too?

And your bunch of fellow "i don't know anything but let me just join the bash davidylan train" are here heheheing you and patting u on the back?

Afam's case is very simple, at least unlike the other empty heads here he does not pretend to argue on issues he is clueless on, he just comes here to insult me. I'm fine with that.

ROFLMAO!! This is rich, coming from a guy that has used the words "thou fool" to describe a fellow poster and has told another "you are getting even more stupid," in a previous post. This was after saying "let's stop using our arses to think,'' in an attempt to denigrate others, just before he rounded up another post, using the words "your silliness knows no bounds." Kai! Now he is complaining about how people jump on the personal attack bandwagon, and how they have joined "the bash davidylan train."

Wonders shall never end! Alright, I think I know what the problem is. . . .davidylan can dish out the dirt, but he can't take it himself?? LMAO!!

almondjoy:
What do you want "nwando" to accomplish?  Witness or be a subject of rampaging bandits in a "high tech mob lynching" with tires around the neck to "do much travelling the roads of Nigeria"?

Oh, so you now hold brief for Nwando?? She no fit answer for herself? I weak o! Maybe you can ask her to answer my previous question which was: "How many almajiris does she know that attend university," instead of acting as a go-between here!

almondjoy:
I always look forward to replying your posts because you love to disagree with anything that has merit coming from my fingers.   You on, the other hand have nothing meritorious about your view[/b]points.

Tsk, tsk, tsk!! Why di insult? What is in my view, that has nothing meritorious about it?? We can't all sleep and face the same direction. Neither can we all hold the same views or agree on the same points, on every issue. God created us different. If he wanted consensus, he would have made clones!

almondjoy:
You are comparing a campaign process to government officials driving on the street to Abuja.  Was governor Chime campaigning for votes in Lokoja after being sworn in as "governor"?

You fail to realize that there is a place and time for everything. [b] Why can't you just accept that these "students" had no business on the streets in the first place?
Secondly, "Governor Chime"  had no business coming down from his vehicle for his personal safety.

Thirdly, there are proper channels to air grievances, not by the road side.  The death of their "fellow student" was probably caused by this same problem of loitering in the streets.  When will the "students" learn to get off the streets? We do not even know what caused the death of the "fellow" student  for real----probably in one of their "operations"on these same streets. 

So why should every passing motorist suffer for students taking the laws into their own hands? Now they are attacking every motorist coming from the "east" to retaliate?  I bet you since this might have happened in Lokoja, these students did not even know who the "heck"  "Governor Chime" was.  It could have been your relative or mine.  In the absence of aides and protection, it would have been a different story.

Notice how the report said the "students" quickly regrouped?   To continue their mob action instead of being in school or marching all the way to Abuja to protest lack of accommodation and basic amenities in their institutions.

Yes, am comparing a campaign process which normally has lots of[i] strangers[/i] meeting face-to-face with incumbent governors seeking a 2nd term, with a group of students on the road. Both are characterised by the presence of crowds. In fact, you will find more people or strangers of all shades & sizes, including students, taking part in a campaign rally or process. Such strangers make up the crowd that often mill around during the campaign process, and are not much different from the students that were shot by the governor's aides. Such aides are not normally trigger-happy during a campaign process, when crowd control is difficult. So why were they trigger-happy in front of students?

Holding protests on the streets has often been done in many countries, (including Nigeria) for ages. Some people carry placards in the process and march on the streets. So why are you suddenly asking "what were students doing on the streets?" In some nations, the police even offers protection to the protesters as they carry out their rallies, marches & protest talks. So why castigate the students?

And you have still not answered my question. Why didn't the governor's aides open fire on sighting the students and the road block, before the governor came down and started talking to them? Was it that there was no real or perceived 'threat' before the governor started talking to them? Why did they open fire after they had ascertained the identity of the students?

Let us go back to the report: It says that:

theresa8: Governor's security escorts kill two students
TWO students of the Kogi State University Anyangba were yesterday killed by security aides on the convoy of the governor of Enugu State, Mr. Sullivan Chime, who was on his way to Abuja.

The Guardian learnt that the students were protesting the death of one of their colleagues in an accident in front of the university and had dug up part of the road to act as a speed breaker when the convoy ran into them. Chime was said to have alighted from his car and was talking with some of the students who appeared pacified when, suddenly, some of his security aides in front panicked and started shooting sporadically.

It did not say that the students were violent at the initial stage. It said they were protesting. Neither did the report say the students were armed. That was probably what gave Chime the confidence to alight from his car and start talking to them. The violence actually started after the governor's security aides had panicked, and started shooting, which led to the death of two of the students. Chime should change his security detail. They are jittery, trigger-happy fellows who do not know how to conduct a security assessment on an area, before opening fire. With their attitude, they (and not the students) are the real threat, and are more likely to shoot Chime in error, instead of protecting him.

There was no real danger until they started shooting. So can you read that report again, before you respond?

almondjoy:
If you were a "governor" would you indulge in such a foolhardy mission?  In fact I would be tempted to ask my aides to shoot at sight. . . . .


Yes, the governor is a people's person--but not at the side of the road with strangers who have can pose a threat to his personal safety and wellbeing.  What will those aides go back and tell the governor's family--if anything happened to him.   That he was "a man of the people?"--- They might even be accused of stage-managing the "kidnap" or "death" of the governor if the worst had happened on the governor's side.  Now we have 2 dead "students" who had not business loitering by the road side.

No winners!

There are several governors that have served two terms in Nigeria. During their pre-selection campaigns, or re-election campaigns, don't they 'come down to stand at the side of the road with strangers' to campaign for votes? (Not that they need it much with all the rigging their parties engage in).

Each time they want to pose for TV reports about how they conducted on-the-spot assesments of a particular situation, don't they stand by the road to promise 'heaven and earth' to these same type of strangers that they see as potential voters? Did such strangers pose a threat to his safety and well-being then?

Besides the report said that the aides shot the students, after the governor had started talking to the students, and NOT before he came down. If they felt that those students were a threat, why didn't those aides shoot before the governor had come down, to start talking to them? Was there no threat to his safety before he started talking to them?

Please remember: The report never said that the governor was in any real danger!

nwando:
sad situation.

[b]I would have been terrified seeing a road block while travelling in Nigeria,[/b]I don't know anyone that wouldn't and if I had a gun I might be tempted to shoot knowing what Nigeria is.

Something tells me you haven't done much travelling by road, within Nigeria.

deeyor:
i read this thread because of the topic but sadly on reading i discovered that Nigerians can never change.the topic was about youths in Abia state chasing ladies in trousers but a thoughtless person like denex decided it was Muslims when will change and stop making tasteless comments better be careful denex u might get yourself in trouble. Cheers

Oh jeez. . . .pls learn to read between the lines. Denex was using irony & sarcasm to get his points across, I believe!

RichyBlacK:
Well, the Vatican could mean the Holy See (the governing body of the Roman Catholic Church) or Vatican City, the smallest independent state in the world.

However, the context is clear. Rabbi davidylan has shown ignorance on all things concerning the Roman Catholic Church, Rome, the Vatican, and Europe.

Hehehe. . . . . .I beg, make una borrow am one pair of contact lens for there, make e take read di thing wey you type here, well well! ROFLMAO!

almondjoy:
Once again Laudate, you missed the point. These shows that we have a lot to work on. Whether there was a "vacant" lot or not is not the question. We are dealing with "orderly transition" of things. The way to treat human beings with respect and negotiation. Not with violence and forceful eviction without alternative terms or enough time to do so. If your government could enforce its laws--only without providing alternatives for the traders--I do not think the traders would keep coming back. Or do you?

No, once again I didn't miss the point. You did. You gave a very specific example of how the govt. worked with  Hispanic traders, through their unions to relocate them to a new trading zone. I merely responded to your example, by showing you how the Lagos govt. has tried to do a similar thing, and how it created a fresh set of problems.

As for the Idumota story, I want to believe that you were not in Lagos when that relocation was done. Or else you would have known that the population of relocated traders were not 20 or 50, but much more. Alternatives were provided in this case. It was a whole neighbourhood of traders dealing in particular items. And it was an orderly transition, to use your own words. Please pay a visit to ASPAMDA at the Trade fair complex along Ojo Expressway, to understand what am talking about.

almondjoy:
Nigeria is an environment of half measures. From your solutions you and your friends are proposing we have the following:

1. You give the traders opportunity to relocate to "Idumota" as you say but relocate 20 or 50 of the traders leaving about 100,000 more to wander around "Beautiful Lagos"

2. You give the traders enough time to move to "other areas" but most of the time your vehicles cannot get there so the inhabitants of Lagos cannot reach these goods and so we have an inflationary crisis. The inhabitants of Lagos now encourage the traders to come back on the streets for easy access and hassle free shopping--contrary to what "Fashola" thinks.

3. You bulldoze the particular area of interest and leave it through dry and rainy season to build man-made lakes and mosquito ponds. We lose the roads and lose the traders. Beautification postponed for another governor perhaps in the future or someone reclaims the land and builds some shacks on it.--- Or better still, the traders come back.

4. You bulldoze your target area of beautification, then creat a vacuum for more immigrant traders around Nigeria who have "slower" businesses in other parts of Nigeria. Don't forget everyone has to be part of the looting "hub" of Nigeria.

5. Even when all things are equal-the target area is beautified by the eyes of the beautifier--there are not tangible laws the traders take seriously. Some are new in town and do not know the history of the "beautitudes of Lagos"--don't care either. Just want a place to defecate and urinate for lack of public conveniences. In one flash Fashola realizes the process has to start all over again and radios the "area commander" to get the ministry of "bulldozing works" to get to work. After that the cycle starts again because the police have other part time jobs as stopping containers at the wharf or customs till their services are needed again by another governor.

Sighs! What a life!

Please go back and re-read my solutions thoroughly, so that you do not mix them up. The only thing I have advocated has been the removal of shacks, stalls and sheds built along railway tracks, on gutters and on WHOLE lanes, along major highways, and roads. These were not deserted vacant lands, but roads, highways or areas designated as thoroughfares! So I don't what is supposed to be reclaimed o! Neither can I see a vacuum anywhere. The roads, streets and gutters across which these stalls are built as well as the pedestrian sidewalks, are they a vacuum?? In fact, it is because there is no vacuum on those roads that 'street trading' is being viewed as a menace and a risky activity!

And when stalls on the roads are removed, they free up space for vehicular movement which leads to the free-flow of traffic, and this in turn prevents commuters from sitting in traffic for three hours or more - something caused most times by the fact that the road has been reduced to one-way lanes, by street traders. And when stalls on the gutters are removed, rain water and floods drain off and there is less flooding when it rains, as long as those gutters and storm drains are not blocked!

Please o, there are laws against street trading & road obstruction, but their enforcement is another matter!

@ Davidylan,

There are several oil workers from different Western countries who are resident in Saudi and carry their Bibles with them. There are also several Nigerian and African business people who go to Dubai very often and carry their bibles with them. Am not aware those bibles have been seized or confiscated. What a majority of Arabs frown upon is the open proselyting or attempts to win new converts to the christian religion from members of their own population. Don't forget that the Dubai & the UAE in general is a huge tourist destination now. Am not sure many bibles are currently being seized from Christian tourists and Christian workers, in that country.

almondjoy:
Did you attend University in Nigeria? Let me tell you. Most of the time there were armed robbers posing as student in the campuses not to talk of on the highways. When I was there, we did not mount "road blocks" on the highways like bandits. We had reps of "Student Unions" delegated to take our concerns through the appropraite channels.

Does it seem normal to you that student mount road blocks to confront any vehicle passing to protest the death of their fellow "student"? Or whole governor stands by the road side to dialogue with potential armed robbers on the freeway? Or the so called Mopols were conveniently absent from the whole uprising?

My point is that there is a way to handle things even if you live in the Jungle of Africa. Now see the result. Did anyone win here Laudate?

No one won. And it was due to the trigger-happy antics of the governor's aides. If you want to digress and talk about how armed robbers now make up the student population of Nigerian universities, fine. But I thought we were debating the contents of that report. In it, it was stated that Governor Chime had already come down and had started adressing the students. So he had an idea of the identity, of those he was talking to. He chose to come down and address them. No one forced him to dialogue with them. The report does not say there was any threat to his life, or that there was a need to defend him from any attacks, while he was speaking to the students. So why did his aides shoot the students?

Like I said before, if the shoe was on the other foot and it was the aides in a Northern governor's convoy that shot students of a South-eastern university, reactions would have been different. But because it is the other way round, we are now debating if those students were cultists, almajiris, armed robbers etc. or if they even looked like one or if they forged their I.D cards. We are also debating why it is not normal for a governor to come down and talk to them, (even though am yet to see what is abnormal about it!) and we are also debating their mounting of a road block.

_{*One last word:*} The university I attended also had 'student union' representatives. And they often took their grievances to the authorities, through appropriate channels. But it didn't stop them from also mounting road blocks etc. And governor's aides NEVER stopped by, to kill anybody. The police merely fired tear gas to disperse students, all on their own. It was enough to clear the roads & send them running, without much stress.

almondjoy:
My neighbourhood used to have a farmers market down one of the streets here.  It was in a vacant land space no body was using at the time. Away from any residential or business zones.  I believe it was contracted to the hispanic populaton to help them with some form of employment.  Later, some other interest group wanted the space and the city decided it was time for a strip mall or "plaza"-----A real beautification concept mind you.


What did they do?  They gave the marketers 6 months to vacate the premises and posted the last date of occupancy to give these people alternative means of setting up else where.  Now you know that would not be a problem because as small as any group is here--they always have a union.  These union members looked for alternative spots and relocated ALL these farm marketers to a much better equipped area 1 month before they were to leave the old space.  Now that is what I am talking about.


Where did government come in? They already had laws in place to let traders form unions.  The people have learned to work with the government and everyone is happy.  They had representatives and the government worked with them without violence or disrespect. Orderly transition of things.  But in Nigeria?   It is all about Army, Police, Navy and Mopols used to trample on the defenseless citizens in Nigeria--all because they are idle and can be used by corrupt leaders as errand boys and girls!

Well, Laudate and co.  Nothing to worry about.  Let us see how far Fashola will get in the "beautification" of Lagos.

How many areas of Lagos where street traders abound, have such "a vacant land space no body was using at the time. Away from any residential or business zones," to use your own words?? Yes, there are some open spaces within some markets, but where else do vacant land spaces exist along major roads, streets and highways in Lagos? Is it within Lagos Island, where the houses are so densely packed together, and fully built-up? Or is it along the major highways or bridges, which are several metres above the water? Or is it at Oshodi-Oke where every available space is taken up? Or is it along Old Ojo road where there are so many residential and business premises, standing side-by-side? Even these days when banks want to open up new branches, they lease existing buildings and renovate them from scratch, because there are very few or[i] no [/i] existing vacant land spaces, along several major streets or densely-populated parts of Lagos where these traders ply their wares.

As for giving notice, these traders are often told not to trade along a particular area, and many of them[b] know [/b] that it is illegal for them to set up shop on the road, so how much more notice do they need? Even along the Bar beach, governement aides went there and gave them a quit notice spanning several months which was televised on NTA, but at the expiration of that period, they went back there and guess what? The traders were still there.

In one of my previous posts, I spoke about govt. relocating some traders from Idumota and other areas in central Lagos to Alaba & Trade fair complex. It was done in conjunction with their unions. As soon as those traders moved there, new ones went back to the same spot and took their place. Guess what? Some of the relocated traders then came back to Idumota as well, and decided to re-open their business there. Go back to Idumota now, and see what the place is like. Carter bridge is the one that has borne the greatest brunt of it all. People not only trade freely on that bridge, it has been converted into a parking lot. Chei!

There was even a time when some local govt. councils, decided to allow some streets to be converted into day markets, just in an effort to relocate these street traders off the highways. What happened? It created a fresh set of problems.

Newswatch Magazine:
A new policy in Lagos dedicates some streets to traders only but residents in the area are kicking against it

Joyce Aleshinloye works in a commercial bank in Victoria Island but resides in Lagos Island. Her journey to the office is about 30 minutes if she board a commercial bus, but most of the times she prefers a motorcycle ride since the distance is not up to five kilometers. But she ran into trouble when she bought a car. "It was then that I know what it means to resides in Lagos Island. I can't drive my car to my house as traders have completely taken over most parts of the roads. If I could have my way, I would order the total eviction of the street traders on the Island. The house that I live in was built by my father and they should not expect me to quit the house for them because of their trading. But what can I do? I have accepted my fate and I will still be here till I get married and hopefully leave this noisy environment," she said.

Aleshinloye resides at Fred Mcwen Street on the Island which alongside 14 other streets has now been converted to "traders only streets" by the Lagos State Government in conjunction with the Lagos Island Local Government.

Other streets so designated include Gbajumo, Idoluwo, Ojo-Giwa, Kosoko, Mogaji Lane, John Street, Pedro, Obun-Eko, Oko-Awo, Onibudo, Bridge, Okoya and Zulu Bolaji streets. Cars and motor- bikes are not allowed into the streets. But for now the rule operates in only two streets Fred Mcwen and Gbajumo.

If Joyce is complaining, Lookman Okanlawan is mad at what is happening in his area. A landlord at Ojo-Giwa Street, Okanlawan is at a loss as to why the state government should contemplate such a programme. "I know it is not possible to drive the traders away, but it is equally not possible for us to leave our houses for them," he told Newswatch last week.

He complained that they now have problem driving their vehicles to their homes. [b]"We now have to live home as early as 5a.m. and can't get in until 11p.m. when the traders would have close for the day. The traders have completely taken over the street," Okanlawon said.[/b]Although the programme has not actually kicked off at Ojo-Giwa Street, residents are already groaning due to the activities of traders. "They have completely taken over the roads leading to our houses and residents cannot bring cars to their houses again," he said.

Aside from those leaving on the streets who are having a tough time moving in the area, traders with shops are also finding it difficult to get their goods into their shops as the traders on the roads are fully in charge between 6.a.m and 6.p.m.[/b]One of the shop owners, who spoke to Newswatch but simply gave his name as Oyewunmi said that they had to engage the services of local truck pushers known as Aboki for the sum of N150 per trip to get goods into their shops." And these Abokis could make five trips to completely evacuate the goods. This affects our profit margins," he said.

[b]The "Traders Only Streets," according to sources in the Lagos State Government was muted to solve the problem of street trade as well as take care of the interest of average Lagosians who may be unable to pay high prices charged by shop owners on the island.

The Lagos Island Local Government designed collapsible kiosks which are given to the traders at the rate of N30, 000. The kiosks are then lined in the middle of the street with government officials on hand to ensure orderliness. They also ensure that the street is cleaned at the close of business each day. When Newswatch visited the area last week, a standby ambulance and a fire brigade vehicle were parked within the vicinity of the area in case of any problem. . . .etc.

http://www.newswatchngr.com/editorial/allaccess/nigeria/10806105150.htm

In Lagos as well as in other parts of Nigeria, traders have never been prevented from joining unions, or forming one. In fact, allocation of shops in many areas is done through the traders' unions. Even within the market, every section has its' own union. In a typical market, you will find the butchers' union, fishmongers union, or the potato sellers' union, the textile sellers' union etc.

What this society needs is a change in the mind-set of most people, both citizens and street traders alike.

Abeg, I don talk my own. . .those that have ears to hear, let them hear.

almondjoy:
And how can anyone tell they were students?  Have you not heard of cultists and "occasional" visitors without matriculation numbers hang around students just to feel like students?  The fact that the "governor" came down and addressed the "mob" is not a clear identifying mark to let us know they are real students.  No ID badges-which can be faked mark you.

My point?  When there is a total breakdown of law and order in any country and anarchy sets in--anything is possible.  Any excuse can be used to vent out frustrations and you know the rest of the story.

How can a whole governor of a state come down from his vehicle and start engaging "students" in conversations by the road side? In Nigeria of all places?

Did you actually read that report before posting your comments?? Or is there anything in that report that suggests they were not students?

And what do you mean by 'how can a whole governor of a state come down from his vehicle and start engaging "students" in conversations by the road side? In Nigeria of all places?'

Oh, one last word:

Lindeke: “Tribalism is tough in terms of definition,” says Professor William Lindeke from the University of Namibia’s Political Science Department. The reason for this, Lindeke says, is because tribalism deals with identity.

“How do you define people?” he asks.
“Some might define themselves through their ethnic group, while others might identify themselves through the language they speak, or where they live. So it’s difficult, especially from a research point of view.”

“Nepotism,” he says, “refers to favouritism on the basis of family, acquaintances, regionalism and such-like. You can practice nepotism based on your country of origin, regardless of tribal relationships.”

Tribalism, on the other hand, is exercised in such a way that someone, for example in an influential position, directs “all benefits, such as employment opportunities or promotions, to the people of his or her tribe”.
In Africa especially, he says, tribalism has been found to be more[i] “dangerously devastating” [/i] than nepotism, citing massacres in Rwanda and Burundi as extreme examples of the effects of tribalism.

A second opinion
Lindeke, on the other hand, has a different take on these two terms.
“Tribalism is about the idea of 'us' versus 'them',” he says. “But there are many ways people practice these things.”

He defines tribalism as a feeling of belonging to one group as opposed to another, while nepotism is when someone only gives jobs or contracts to people from their own group, however they choose to define this group.

Lindeke says that some people understand the term tribalism in a positive sense, such as when there is a cohesiveness between people who feel they are part of a lineage, either because they have been through the same experiences or come from the same background.

In its worse form, Lindeke says, tribalism or “identity politics” can be used by demagogues or ‘ethnic brokers’ to “manipulate the passions and emotions of other people in order to promote their own power.”

http://www.polytechnic.edu.na/echoes/story1.htm

This is just to show another definition or description of tribalism. You can take your pick. Just remember that "a little learning is a dangerous thing."

Kobojunkie:
Yet Webster defines those words differently , interesting , I smell a Nigerian dictionary of English words coming soon !!!

If you feel Webster's Dictionary is the sole authority on the definition of tribalism, you are free to hold on to your views.

New words find their way into various dictionaries all the time. Even existing words have their meanings revised and expanded from time to time. A few years ago the word "bootylicious" did not exist in the English lexicon. But today, thanks to Beyonce and some American stars, the word has found its way into many dictionaries, and is now a synonym for sexual attractiveness, especially around the rear end of the feminine gender.

A large number of researchers are still trying to grapple with the definition of the word "tribalism." Many of them do not merely rely on the simplistic definition that dictionaries like Webster, have given. They have recognised that its' effects permeate the daily lives of several people, and it goes far beyond that simplistic definition.

Let me give you a few examples:

In its' reference to tribalism Wikipedia states that:

wikipedia: While ethnocentrism is one of only a very small handful of human cultural universals, the term "tribalism" has become nearly synonymous with it. This is largely due to the Eurocentrism of early anthropologists who forced tribal societies into a simplistic model of cultural evolution. Many tribes refer to themselves with their language's word for "people," while referring to other, neighboring tribes with various epithets. For example, the term "Inuit" translates as "people," but they were known to the Ojibwe by a name translating roughly as "eaters of raw meat." This fact is often cited as evidence that tribal peoples saw only the members of their own tribe as "people," and denigrated all others as something less. In fact, this is a tenuous conclusion to draw from the evidence. Many languages refined their identification as "the true people," or "the real people," suggesting that there were other people, who were simply inferior .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribalism

Other researchers have described tribalism in other ways. In an article on the Tegloma tribe of Sierra-Leone, a writer J.L Musa - in a critique of the assesment given by a scholar Prof. Kamara - had this to say: [quote author=J.L Musa] "The key feature of tribalism is this instinctive tendency to recognize, judge and reward people according to their group identity, rather than their characteristics as individuals. We are all familiar with it. The group in question can be based on any number of things, the most familiar, however, being ethnicity; that is, a supposed common ancestry." [/quote]http://www.sulima.com/afvision/newsroom/newsroom.shtml

Another scholar yet again describes it like this:

Hutcheon: Pat Duffy Hutcheon writing in Humanist in Canada (Spring 2001), in the article, "‘Can Humanism Stem the Rising Tide of Tribalism?"draws our attention to a popular definition of tribalism:

"Tribalism is simply the deeply ingrained human habit of identifying oneself in terms of the group; of viewing one's own in-group as somehow ‘‘special'' and superior to others; and of discouraging social intercourse (or any other type of intercourse) with members of the ‘‘out-group''."

Hutcheone elaborates:
"In many ways we are all prone to tribalism. It is deeply rooted in our evolutionary history and biological heritage. It stems from the ‘‘kin selection'' that evolved in response to the ever-present dangers to self and family in primitive times: a process resulting in the encouragement of adult members of the clan to sacrifice themselves, if necessary, for the survival of their own offspring and those of their siblings. Because of the way evolution works, this pattern of behaviour had the consequence of preserving the genes of those individuals who behaved in a tribalistic way, while eliminating the others. Accompanying this propensity to kin selection——and being transmitted along with it––––was an evolutionarily effective ‘‘us-them'' response to surrounding clans. The Other (or Stranger) was recognized as dangerous and threatening——to be either avoided or destroyed——and one''s own clan had to be ever-ready to attack and repel any such strangers in their territory."

Let me stop here. You can see that the definition of tribalism should not be restricted to just what Websters dictionary has to say.

stanech:
I have said it over and over again make we devide this conuntry make everybody stay im own.

In Europe every comunitee that speaks its own language is its own country no matter how small.

Why are we trying to stay together when we speak different languages and practice different religion.

IF they want to bring in another law that will be contrary to the freedom of speech we preach, then they should simply ask all the Igbos and christians to leave their soil before doing so.

Fernando Po is in another country, that is seperate & distinct from Nigeria. Has it stopped Southerners from migrating across their borders, into their land? So if this country is broken up, will it stop Southerners from migrating to the North?? Will it stop the attacks against Southerners by the almajiris?

Riots and attacks on individual lives and property even occur among people from the same ethnic group. A ThisDay editor once said: "Would Nigeria breaking up, have prevented the Aguleri/Umuleri crisis? Would it have prevented the Ife/Modakeke riots that keeps flaring up intermittently? Would it have prevented the Zango-Kataf riots?" Our problem is that we do not know how to keep the peace, so that things do not continually degenerate into conflict. 

People need to find lasting solutions to inter-ethnic violence & riots. Each time there is a riot in some core Northern districts, there is loss of human life and material possessions. The very next day after the riots, instead of both the victims and the leaders to seek lasting solutions to the problem, and put in place measures that would prevent a reccurrence, the traders head for their shops as if nothing happened, while the Northern leaders head for their offices to continue with their daily activities. After the nice speeches, life continues as usual until the next round of blood-letting takes place.

For societies to function effectively, there has to be rule of law, order and sanctions to keep criminal behaviour in check. A lot of Christians, Chinese and people of different religious backgrounds pour into Dubai, Saudi and several Islamic countries on a daily basis. Someone pointed that out. He also asked how many of them have been killed? We need to conduct some research and seek answers to such questions, instead of just conjuring hypothetical answers, opinions and conjecture that may not give lasting solutions. We need to ask ourselves, what are the Muslims in those societies doing right in order to prevent conflict, that our own citizens are doing wrong?

Are Christians (no matter how small) not considered "infidels" or unbelievers in such societies? Why have they not been killed in the name of religion on a regular basis?

Am still on a quest for truth and answers to these questions. So please don't let us derail the thread by advocating  violence.

Ka:
I don't know if you can be Gwari and detribalised. You can certainly be Nigerian and Gwari, though.

Of course you can be Gwari and detribalised. Same way you can be Gwari and tribalistic.

It seems that some folks here have a different understanding of what tribalism means, and what it is to be tribalistic, while others have a different perspective of what tribalism means or what it is to be tribalistic. Tribalism within the context in which it is practised in Nigeria, is totally different from the textbook definition someone was trying to advocate earlier. Tribalism is practised in Nigeria, with a singular motive - to discredit other ethnic groups and scorn their members.

In my own view, being 'tribalistic' has the same meaning as 'discrimination', based on ethnicity. Being tribalistic means holding the myopic, ethnocentric view, that individuals from a particular ethnic group would all behave in a certain way based on sterotypes that one has heard about such an ethnic group, without taking into account each individual's personal characteristics, beliefs, attitudes, character and personality traits in order to make a fair judgement.

Being tribalistic also means viewing your own ethnic group as superior to others, while putting down other ethnic groups due to some misguided belief that more saints exist within your own group, while more sinners exist in other groups. Being tribalistic also means being parochial and prejudiced against an individual solely on the basis of the fact that he comes from an ethnic group, that is different from your own.

Being tribalistic also means promoting members of your own ethnic group, and advancing their own prospects at the expense of those from other ethnic groups.

Being tribalistic has nothing to do with being nationalistic, as nationalism includes being proud of your own nation, ethnic group or linguistic heritage, without denigrating or putting down other ethnic groups, and it allows you to exhibit a sense of patriotism and offer equal esteem/respect to other ethnic groups. With nationalism, you do not see other ethnic groups from the perspective of stereotypes. Neither do you think they have to be bad, for your own nation or ethnic group to be better.

Tribalism is closely linked to racism and homophobia. And I see nothing good in all these three!

nwando:
Were they carrying placards that read students?
The reports came after the fact,remember.

I still maintain,the aides should have shot in the air to scare the mob.
This is a sad story but in a country where armed robbers and area boys,almajiris,bakassi touts have operated as large group of young men approaching innocent citizens,we can't say the reaction was all that bizarre.

And whether you believe it or not,an Easterner in a predominantly muslim area witha gun in his glove compartment may do the same out of fear.
I might.

Read that report again. It said that the 'Eastern' governor Chime, had already come down and was adressing the students! So obviously he knew and his aides also knew that they were university students, before they decided to shoot. Again I ask you, "how many almajiris that you know, attend university?" Was there anything in the students demeanour, dressing or attitude that gave them away as almajiris?

And people have told you that Kogi is NOT a predominantly muslim area, or state. So where did you get this idea that they were in a predominintly muslim area??

Kobojunkie:
You are repeating EXACTLY WHAT I AND ALMONDJOY AND Some others have been saying ALL ALONG !!!! @WhiteRoses , thank you !!

Why did you insert my quote in your last response, and claim that I repeated what you and almondjoy have been saying? In what way did I repeat what you and almondjoy have been saying? You guys have been saying govt. shouldn't bulldoze their stalls, and I and some others have been saying the roads, streets and highways are NOt where street traders are supposed to be. So why shouldn't govt. remove their stalls?

*Edit*: Thank God, you have corrected yourself. I came back to this thread to see that you actually rectified the error without wailing that someone claimed you said something, you did not say!

almondjoy:
Nothing wrong with farming in case you missed my point. In this day and age--farming needs education too. Everything needs education these days including the art of "bulldozing"! How do you teach ex street hawkers how to farm overnight?

The same way most of our grand-parents with little or no education, were taught how to farm. Farming is NOT rocket science. Don't your street traders need an education to learn how to hawk too? Or don't they need it to learn how to build stalls on roads, across gutters and on railway tracks?

Please get this clear. Am NOT against education. In fact, am in favour of govt. building more schools, offering quality education etc. But learning is only possible, when people change their mind-sets or have a will to learn. Haven't you heard of people withdrawing kids from schools, in order to make them join their trading business? Or even preventing them from going for higher education, because they want them to go to the city & join their uncles or relatives in their shops?

What about the 50 or 60 year old traders, how many of them want to start school and get an education? If you actually llisten to interviews conducted with some of these street traders on TV, you would realise that quite a large number of them have had some kind of formal education or the other, up to some level. Not all of them are 'illiterates' that have not had any access to education.

almondjoy:
Now I cannot carry out any legitmate activity? And I am still alive and walking the streets like IBB?

Na wah oh! Who said the street hawkers should remain on the streets and get free passes to come back every year? Provide alternatives gradually and entice them with incentives to get off the streets is what I said.

No one said anyone cannot carry out a legitimate activity. Trading is a legitimate activity, and it can be done anywhere except on the roads, streets, highways and railway tracks! That is all we have been saying!
And until those incentives are provided what should we all do?

almondjoy:
Beautification of Lagos should not be my priority unless I was a trifling governor and really in Nigeria, the governors are "trifling"! How won't we have yahoo yahoo students in cyber cafes by 10AM and hawking the streets by 5PM till dawn? They want to see "beautiful" Lagos now!

Don't those 'yahoo-yahoo' students have schools to go to? Did you read that part of my post well at all? I told you that they leave their schools and education to visit cybercafes, by 10:00a.m. What is their own excuse?

Like I said before, I don talk my own. Let those who have ears to hear. . .hear!!

@Whiteroses,

Please go back and read all the viewpoints raised on this entire thread, from the first page to the last before you come back to tell us what you think. The problem is that street traders are not just displaying their wares on the gutter (which by the way contributes to flooding in many parts of Lagos, as the rainwater doesn't drain off in time), these street traders are ALSO building stalls across gutters, on sidewalks, across railway tracks and also turning WHOLE lanes into trading points! Like someone else pointed out, pedestrians have no other place to walk or pass, and are forced to walk on the road. In trying to walk from one end of the road to another, they have to dodge cars, okadas, molues etc. Some of them even get hit in the process. Is that fair?   I have lost count of the number of times an 'okada' has brushed me, as I am walking from one end of the road to the other, in order to get to where am going, simply because the sidewalks have been overtaken by traders.

Take a walk along Obalende, from the old Dodan Barracks road to the Onikan end at Kam Salem House, and pass under the bridge through the bus-stop. If you can make it in one piece without bumping into anyone, or dodging danfos & street hawkers, or cars splashing water on you as you are walking along, trying to share the road with them or a street trader raining 'curses' on you for disturbing her 'market' and not letting her see road (as if that is a legitimate trading post o!) . . . . . ah, omo. . . . hold a thanksgiving in church on Sunday!

Those saying govt. should leave them alone, should also remember that govt. has a responsibility to keep the road free of obstruction, hazards, or unsafe conditions in order to allow motorists free passage, and make the roads safe for road users and pedestrians. An obstruction on the road, (wether human or mechanical) is an accident waiting to happen!

@femionasan,

My brother, I hear you o jare! Some folks know the truth, but simply want to play to the gallery. Let those who have ears to hear. . .hear. As for me, I don talk my own. Thanks, mate!

Back to the topic. In my post no. « #145 on: Today at 02:51:35 PM » I suggested five things that could be done to end street trading, until we digressed to start harping on this 'farming-farming' issue. Let me add one more.

My 7th sugestion would be develop high-speed, intra-city train systems throughout the city, which would reduce vehicular traffic on the streets, and carry more people across longer distances, in a faster, safer, more efficient manner. Maybe the traders could then be persuaded to free up space on the tracks. It would actually help, as they may not be able to place their wares on those tracks if hi-speed trains were zooming across at frequent intervals, daily.

Waterways could also be explored, as a means of providing an alternative mode of transport. Hovercraft, ferries, boats etc. should be deployed across all the rivers and lagoons, of Lagos. It would be hard to see street traders placing their stalls within the water, in order to turn the waterways into one lane like they have done on our roads. Y'know, street trading thrives wherever you have traffic hold-ups. With this riverine mode of travel, traffic would be a thing of the past! It can't happen on water. Then we can leave all the streets to our honourable street traders, and those who want our highways to remain as markets! Let us see the hawkers pursuing the boats on water, and running or swimming after customers mid-stream, to sell their wares!

Oh no! I forgot - they can turn the jetties and waterside quays into congested markets, too! Just like they did at Ijora, Marina waterside near CMS on the expressway, as well as Sand-field jetty in Maroko, Lagos Argh!

Saipro:
We might have run a concurrent thread stating "Why must Nigerians be so ethnically oriented when it comes to marriage?"

It's obvious that Nigerian parents of the immediate generation ahead would keep their kids' marital pairs within their ethnic circles; much less consider a foreigner as a suitable spouse for their child.

To be a little more focused, Seun, I love your apparent family structure and I'm envious of the fact that your parents will let you marry anyone of your choice (that's if you think you know them well enough). I stick to my guns but at a price. With due respect, I'm a first born too (first of a first) and I get the shitty end of the stick. All the time. My brothers don't get it nearly as tough because I can see it - and they comment on it too. I didn't ask to be first - nor to be branded pillar/post/supporter of the clan/family. But that's the way the cookie crumbles. My mom's raving adamant. My dad, quietly insistent. I've several times before asked "what am I to do?". But I know what to do. One way is to sever all there is and "cold boot". But that a radical fix. Milder alternatives exist. Though it may be what they're asking for if they won't let go. No girl is making me do this. It's a way to shake the tethers off. You wouldn't understand it Seun because it's a concept that can't be imagined when not experienced. It goes beyond marriages - it pervades other aspects of life. A much eclipsed fact. But that's another thread. Someday, I'll run that thread as my catharsis.

Marry for love and marry free - when you can, but weigh the cost. If it may cost too much (don't kid yourself by saying "afterall, it's between my spouse and I" especially if your family is deeply ethnic and runs extended roots, do a damage limit assessment. But I haven't said anything some of us don't know already. Strike out the must and simply stick with the statement "Nigerians abroad may marry Nigerians". Nothing is ever so compulsory in life. Really . . .

Some parents are ethnically oriented, others are not especially in cases where those parents had a succesful inter-ethnic marriage themselves. Parents are also human beings, and can be persuaded or cajoled to change their minds or shift their positions. Mutual trust, respect, love, understanding, compassion, loyalty, integrity etc. count for much more in my own books, than ethnicity. It doesn't matter if you are the first born or not, most parents usually object at first, to their child's choice of partners. Some feel that nobody is good enough for their son or daughter, others rely on all the stereotypes they have heard about X ethnic group or Y ethnic group, to arrive at a decision, instead of getting to know that person as an individual and assessing him or her strictly on merit.

I believe nothing good comes easy. Everything has its' own price. Every relationship will be subjected to its' own test, either by fate, Providence, circumstances or society. It now depends on the strength of character of both parties involved, the depth of affection they share, and their ability to bond together to weather the storms. These factors will determine if they can continue to bond and thrive despite the odds, or if they will pull apart in a crisis.

First-born or not, YOU would have to live with that individual for life, not your mum or dad. The most important thing to check, is if that person is willing to adapt to your culture or way of life, and has the temperament to get along with your family. 

If I found someone who loved me simply for who I was, put me first, prayed with me & for me, had my back, shared their heart & thoughts with me, had integrity, compassion, understanding and respect for me, shared my vision, hopes and aspirations, connected with me on a deep, fundamental level and wanted the best for me at all times. . . .do you think I would let such a person go, simply on the basis of ethnicity? Hell, NO!  

I have seen Nigerians marry foreigners o, pure oyinbos, bring them to Naija and some of those marriages worked out, while others didn't. I personally know two families where the Oyinbo women learnt not just their husband's culture, but also the language, quite well. I have also seen those Nigerians who married within their own ethnic groups and some worked, while others fell apart. So ethnicity does not provide any iron-cast guarantees, that we would have a strong marriage, due to the fact that we share a similar culture. 

Everyone needs to search deep within their own heart, to discover what works for them and pursue it. But our problem even as adults, is that many of us Nigerians are people pleasers. We want to please our mums & dads & extended families, even at the expense of our own happiness sometimes. Why??

@Tawa-temi,

Save your breath, because you may not be heard. This is what some of us have pointed out over & over, but has been misinterpreted along the line.

@almondjoy,

Just because you cannot do a thing or carry out a legitimate activity, doesn't mean others cannot do the same thing & excel at it. I have seen people engage in animal rearing and fish farming, and make a success of it. I gave an example of a friend involved in fish farming, who makes in a month what I make in three, at my own desk job.

Farming has its' merits and demerits, but it is one of the oldest professions in the world and people are still doing it, even though it is not on the same level like they used to. All the fish, meat, chicken etc., that you eat, did it land on your table by itself, or was it bred by an individual somewhere or was it hatched by government? There are vets in Nigeria please, and there are ways of keeping animals free from disease. Yes. . . .they may not be as many as we ought to have, but they are still there. So your pessimism is misplaced.

But I gave some other suggestions in my previous posts apart from farming, which you chose to ignore. So even if they cannot farm, what about other things they can do? Does life begin & end with commerce, or buying & selling on the road?

You earn a living in professional circles under some measure of decent working conditions, yet you feel street traders should be left alone to continue selling on the roads under the hot, scorching sun despite all the attendant risks? For your information, kids don't want to go to school anymore, because they make more money hawking pure water and sweets. It is a dangerous trend.

Even at many of the state-owned schools that exist, by the time you go out on the streets around 10:00 a.m, you will see the kids in their uniforms at cybercafes doing yahoo-yahoo, or loitering around. Building more schools is a good move, but it won't solve the problem of street trading especially by older people, if people do not change their mind-set and begin to view street trading as a risky business.

Na wa o!

RichyBlacK:
What is your point? Assuming the girl is an advocate of tribalism, can you tell me how things would have played differently?

Anyway, I'm encouraged that you're trying to move away from the tribalism-is-good camp. But your new adeniyi83-is-not-telling-the-truth camp is only less worse.

Richyblack, just save your breath. This is known as the 'beating-around-the-bush' tactic. We can all read between the lines!

Kobojunkie: If she is in Lagos, then I believe she can not be deemed tribalistic at all cause she is among yorubas and at one time or another she WILL HAVE TO converse with other yorubas. If he happened to be in an Igbo area where the only Yoruba's she has been exposed to have not really given her something good to go with, she has a right to decide to completely stay away from yorubas. It could also be that she discovered something about him that she found appalling and decided instead of telling the other employee the truth, to just make him go away by telling him it was just tribe. I don't believe we know enough of the story to actually say TRIBALISM is the issue.

Hahaha. . . . .make una no stop me, I beg I must laugh well, well because this one na another line of reasoning entirely.

So because a person lives in Lagos, he or she cannot be deemed to be tribalistic? Is that what you are saying?? Chei!! I have seen, heard and even met tribalistic people of all shades from various ethnic groups, who live and trade freely in Lagos. In fact, my first encounter with tribalism was in Lagos o! Kai!