₦airaland Forum

DeepSight, what is a subjective experience?

DeepSight:
Without knowing it you hit upon an important truth when you hint at the difficulty with coding such. For the complexity and nature of a living being could react in a plethora of unforeseen ways to stimuli. And this leads me to another point which I must also task Diridiri on - because a self conscious human is such a complex being that it is capable of absurdity. Is a robot capable of conscious absurdity?

A human can consciously decide to harm itself, commit suicide or take any number of self-destructive actions for reasons that may be absurd. It is also capable of altruistic actions such as sacrificing itself for another. Are robots capable of such. Mind you a robot can be programmed to self destruct, this is different from saying it could make an altruistic moral decision to sacrifice itself for another.



Come on, everything is in a causal chain.

You'll notice you've stepped away from pain into more complex matters. Sure everything is a part of a causal chain but some parts are much easier to isolate. Throwing a rock maybe part of a casual chain but you could almost replicate the throw perfectly with a machine every time.

DeepSight:
Why did you put taste in inverted commas?

Because they don't use a tongue.

PastorMIsBack:
Lol They moved in together shortly afterwards and he kept on bragging to our mutual friends who told me. I was also told when he slept with her friend and she was crying

Omo that guy was a wolf among sheep.

DeepSight:
What about taste.

That is practically a database of chemicals so sure machine can "taste", they do that already.

DeepSight:
You see, when you speak about being able to "compute that into the algorithms" you are objectively preprogramming a happening and there is nothing subjective about that. Ergo, it is not a subjective experience.
How this misses you guys is baffling.

We are talking about endocrinal fluctuations that might have nothing to do with the triggering events, that is not something you can easily code for. It's a whole other chain of causal links even you as a human have no control over nor can you predict with pinponit accuracy how much hormones are going to pour into your system and how it will cause you to respond. I am not sure such causal links can be coded. This is very different from pain which has to do with responding to singular events not a causal chain.

DeepSight:
And surely, you agree that with a machine, these could be measured: (if it could have such experiences, that is): as every indicator about a machine could theoretically be measured and accounted for.

Doesn't make it any less subjective because it remains an internal monologue about the quality and quantity of the experience same as you. For instance one of the reasons we have differing pain thresholds is because we have different physical makeup, what is registering as pain for you might not for someone else, that is part of the subjectivity. Even if we know precisely the quanity and quality of the pain inducing input it won't make the reception of it any less subjective.

DeepSight:
Phew. Well we will have to first agree that the machine experiences anything ab initio. I take it for granted you are consistent with your position that machines can have emotions, can therefore grieve, can be sad or happy, can be ashamed or embarrassed, can be lonely and dejected even?

Emotions are a little more complex because they involve endocrinal inputs. I suppose you could theoretically compute that into the algorithms but that is a little more complicated.

Image123:
So what did you have in mind when you say that Oyedepo's results look supernatural?

Answer my question first, I have obliged you an answer, you should reciprocate.

DeepSight:
Yes, to an extent (-you cannot measure a subjective thing in the true sense-) but it goes beyond the capacity to measure a thing. You can never know how exactly I feel about say, a woman I am in love with. It is impossible for you to know. Because it is a completely subjective feeling with its own subjective flavor different from how perhaps you feel if you are in love with a woman. However, with a machine, such a pre-programmed feeling can always be nailed down to its every exact detail and preprogrammed nuance.

Not that I agree a machine could feel at all, but there you go: if it could - it would not be something subjective. It would be something infused, exact and determinable. It would even be mathematically precise.

What you can't measure is the quality or quantity of a subjective experience. The kind of hot water I can withstand would have my kids screaming in pain even though I can measure the temperature of the water. Measuring the temperature of the water won't make my kids feel the pain less. We can even conduct nerve conduction studies and measure the intensity of the signals the kids are receiving, it still won't make them feel the pain less. Consequently, being able to know a pre-programmed feeling nailed down to its every exact detail and preprogrammed nuance won't stop the machine from have its own subjective experience. You can not measure the subjective experience the machine is having because like yours it is entirely internal and within the construct feeling the experience.

MaxInDHouse:
No wahala, i've heard you!

Ok.

DeepSight:
I think what you need to be asking yourself is if a machine is capable of subjectivity. Because this may help unravel the knots here: experience is intrinsically subjective as you have acknowledged and a thing which is preprogrammed is intrinsically objective in nature as opposed to subjective. Every aspect of its nature is predefined and thus set within a given objective code or program.

Say a machine was programmed to feel pain and each time it feels pain it was programmed to scream, how would you be able to tell the difference between what the machine is undergoing from what a human undergoes? In other words are you saying that being able to measure something means it is no longer be subjectively experienced?

MaxInDHouse:
Keep deceiving yourself!

I spoke CONFIDENTLY of God's promises that was brought to me while i'm here in Nigeria, you also spoke CONFIDENTLY of Elon Musk's promises brought to you here in Nigeria yet you're trying to say there's a difference!

LoL! Of course there is a difference, for 1 I ain't in a cult.

DeepSight:
We have to be careful here - because one is simply saying that a being capable of experience must exist in order for one to talk about feelings of any kind - and that machines are not such beings.

Well I have said I can only work with the facts available to me, I have nothing else to go by. Postulating that some ghost in the machine is necessary for pain to be felt or experienced is not a fact that I can examine to take into consideration. Based on the facts available pain is an experience that can be foisted on a machine albeit that is not currently possible.

MaxInDHouse:
Now you are talking! So i trust (BELIEVE) in the promises of Jehovah, and you trust (BELIEVE) in the promises made by Elon Musk! Psalms 146:3-4

No wahala!

There we go, trying to fit everything into your cultish way of thinking. I don't trust Elon Musk, he is out there doing his thing and I am over here watching. No trust required from me neither am I expressing any. Is that so hard for you to grasp?

DeepSight:
Pain is something that hurts - a feeling of hurt - be it physical, mental, psychological or emotional. In the present discussion its key aspect is that the being experiences the hurt. With physical pain if you have an injury you experience the sensation of hurt. With emotional pain you experience the feeling of hurt. Neither of these is, to my mind, available to a robot. And for me its not a matter of future advancement in science unless the robot is no longer a robot but a being capable of the experience of feelings.

When you describe pain as a hyper-signal of adverse events, that doesnt come near to what we are discussing here. That is why I said that is akin to what Lawrence Krauss does with nothingness - simply redefine it as something else to make it suit what he is trying to say. If your definition held, we would have to consider that even a smart phone feels pain when its touch-sensitive screen is broken.

That is the only definition that fit with the facts available to me so I am not merely redefining it. If according to you pain is something that is felt by the ghost in the machine you will have to provide the facts that fit with this definition.

Image123:
Give one or two examples of what you consider supernatural.

I don't consider anything as supernatural.

DeepSight:
I dont conceive of such an infinite field of potentialities as something that "wants to" do this or that. It is simply the latency of all potentials.



I think I mentioned that at any conceivable stretch of further evolution or gradations from latent potential, one could conceive of the birthing of extra-terrestrial beings who may be responsible for the instigation of Earth-Life as it is - and given that we (neither know this for certain or) do not know of the objectives of such beings, we are in no position to assess to what extent such objectives are being met. If, for example, Earth-Life was designed as a psycho-social experiment in consciousness, then no matter how Hobbesian it might be, it might be meeting its objectives.

And frankly, I am almost completely persuaded that it is an experiment of some sort. Something is being observed playing out, and methinks deliberately so.



I dont know.

Wait, you think otherwordly beings are injecting these "latency of all potentials" into physical bodies?

DeepSight:
So LordReed / Diridiri/

Against my better judgment I am compelled to throw you guys a follow up question. Mark you, I only say "against my better judgment" on account that I believe it will be virtually impossible to achieve a meeting of minds on this subject - not on account that I consider either of you necessarily unreasonable, please. The follow up question is simple - does it not stand to reason that for an entity to "feel" anything (such as pain, the case in point) it has to be alive? That it must be a living thing? And the build-on to that is the question as to if machines / robots are or can be living things.

Embedded Assumption: With this question I am not contemplating a cloned biological creature, any other biological creature of any sort or a cyborg of any sort.

I gave a definition of pain that is firmly entrenched in the workings of the physical body but it seems you think pain is something more. What is your own definition of pain?

Hmmm PastorMIsBack how did you know? You were still keeping tabs on your friend. I dey suspect you o!

MaxInDHouse:
Ògbéni you know it's undeniable but you just came to make noise as usual. OXYGEN is what all living creatures that moves need to keep living. So according to science we must trust in it before traveling to anywhere that's why astronauts travel to the moon with oxygen.
God's word says earth is where God created for life so if you truly want to refute this God all you and your frustrated cohorts need to do is prove what He said is a lie by going to another planet and stay there. Show us that you don't trust in OXYGEN!

LMAO! Don't worry Ògbéni, Elon Musk is working on getting us to Mars, soon we will have a colony there. Meanwhile your mythical god can only speak through your cult leaders. Bwahahahahaha!

MaxInDHouse:
When an atheist run into a thread where God's matter is been discussed we know what's pursuing you here and there.
Never mind my friend, my own God isn't that of the religionists who threatens people with eternal torment so go and eat your food!

I thought you invited the general public to you discuss on "trusting oxygen"? Well, next time label your thread JW only or something so I can steer clear. Meanwhile as long as you are in the public space shouting about how you "trust oxygen", I'll be here to shoot it down. LoLz

Image123:
i never agreed or disagreed, i simply showed you saying that the results look supernatural. Why did you say that the results look supernatural?

So do you agree or disagree?

They look supernatural because people have been primed to consider them as supernatural when in fact they are not supernatural.

MaxInDHouse:
The underlined and your repeated use of the word "CULT" shows how frustrated you are!
Who taught you everyone will love to stay in a perfect setting?
Jesus said the perfect way will be cramped {Matthew 7:13-14} so it's not everyone who found it will be able to travel on it! Luke 13:24

Do you now perceive the presence of God in the midst of Jehovah's Witnesses with all what Jesus said some 2,000 years ago as it's fulfilling just as he said it?
Sorry i forgot you love deceiving yourself, aren't you the same person who was arguing that you never said you must see God?
However your later comments exposed what's in your heart before jumping into the thread!

LoL! Nah men you are the frustrated one here because your "trust in oxygen" narrative was shot down in flames. Bwahahahahaha.

Here comes the nightmares. Perceive which god? LoL. Your mythological Jehovah? Where did I say I must see him? In your nightmare? Bwahahahahaha!

Image123:
You said that the results look supernatural, i didn't.

Glad you agree that buying airplanes and building church buildings is not supernatural.

Image123:
Lol, see excuse. You see supernatural, you still dey shalaye.

What is supernatural about buying airplanes or building gigantic church building?

MaxInDHouse:
My guy i know you always feel the heat in my comment that's why you can't ignore even after several trials to prove intelligent failed!

Let me remind you the simple undeniable definition of "GOD" the "SUPREME BEING"
We are (imperfect) human beings and God promised to prove His presence in the way imperfect humans are well organized and orderly in a PERFECT sense! Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-3

You can only refute what God said in that verse by presenting a global group of people (unbelievers) who have liberated themselves from what is making people like you raise weapons against one another! Revelations 6:3-4

Failure to do that simply makes you a joker who is desperately trying to deny what is obvious to everyone! Matthew 5:14-16

LMAO! You are the joker here because your "perfect" group would never have members leave. Your group is a cult and a very imperfect one at that. They try to disguise their failings but any one not under their control can see them for what they are. Bwahahahaha!

MaxInDHouse:
The highlighted is all i need in your pathetic post.
They left an ORGANIZATION for a better INFORMATION (NOT ORGANIZATION)
So who is fooling who?
If i joined a well organized and orderly people for a reason there's nothing stopping me from leaving such a group for another BETTER PERFORMING group, but leaving for a BETTER INFORMATION now sounds strange Sir!

LoL! There goes the control cult programming. Bwahahahahaha. Yeah cultists like you think everyone needs to be it a high control cult like yours. No sir, we can live better lives with better information rather your lemming like control group. If your cult is a sign your god is as fictional as Sauron.

MaxInDHouse:
There you go my friend!
OXYGEN is gas whatever makes you perceive it as liquid simply means you can also perceive God by observing IMPERFECT humans as they are organized in a PERFECT way, thank you!

So the imperfect humans are the god in visible form? There is no people organized in a perfect way, don't kid yourself. Your cult is a high control organisation that is all. Your organisation's failures are so much on record they even attempt to manipulate their history to pull the wool over your eyes. Only umbilically tied individuals like you continue to be fed the mush they call truth and you swallow it hook, line and sinker. Those who realise they are being feed a diet of bullshìt leave your organisation and find better information.

Judybash93:
The man is using maths to scam people.. "there's somebody here today, before the year runs out, you will succeed"
What's the probability that one person wouldn't make it in the midst of over 50,000 people. Then when they make it, they'd be like "oh!! Daddy said it" Nigga, you could have been lucky, you could have been working hard but nah, it's your pastor that made it happen. There goes tithe and offering

I call it the statistics of the gospel. This is one reason they want an increasing number of congregants because their predictions have an increased chance of becoming a reality with the higher number of people. Some of them like Oyedepo are very slick and would have primed their congregations to be receptive so well that their results look supernatural.

MaxInDHouse:
Keep deceiving yourself, if you believe there's oxygen then you need to show me without any long process failure to do so simply means you have no excuse whatsoever to doubt the existence of an invisible supreme being whose presence is felt in the gathering of His human worshipers!

LoL! Here you go:

See attached image

So I have reason to doubt your god now right? LMFAO!

petra1:
Your post didn't change a thing. The fact remain that Rome ruled British Empire . And not Britain ruling Roman Empire . That's number 1.

Secondly the bible is more current than tomorrow newspaper.

The Bible made it clear that the kingdoms will be getting weaker . So according the Bible prophecy which came to pass historically . Babylon was the greatest and strongest and the kingdoms which followed in succession are weaker than the previous one . The last power now which is the weakest especially with the democracy government. Power is no longer in the hands of tyrants but in the hands of people. Where are the powers of the kings and queens and emperors. They are merely ceremonial.


Daniel 2:31-46 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.

LoLz! So being a tyrant is your definition of strong and of ruling the world? Bwahahahahaha! Na wa you guys are so good at turning things on their head just so you can keep believing in myths.

Your Bible is a book of Hebrew/Jewish myths which like a broken clock you can interpret it to meaning anything you like as long as you ignore all the other times it was wrong or just move the clock hands to the time yourself which is how you use the Bible. You force it to mean anything you want it to mean so you can never be wrong even if you contradict yourself 1000 times you are still correct because the Bible. LoLz.