₦airaland Forum

Evil Brain: That ship has sailed a long time ago. The imported religions are here and they aren't going anywhere. Traditionalism is going to be nothing more than a fringe religion for the foreseeable future. And that's only if we're lucky.

There's a good chance that they'll be wiped out entirely if the Christian fundamentalists and Muslim fanatics get their way. Traditionalists and atheists are about the only groups in Nigeria that it's socially acceptable to openly discriminate against. And the campaign of intolerance is working.

I wouldn't be so negative largely because westerners are now investigating traditional religions. There has been a recent surge in non-Africans becoming interested in our traditions. European traditional religions are essentially dead as living bodies of knowledge. Wicca and others have been reconstructed but African ATR's have been practiced continuously. People like Malidoma and Sobonfu Some are "training" a lot of non-blacks in ATR's. Perhaps when white people show the interest those blacks who've cast our own traditions aside will be more encouraged to stop hating what we have. After all we both know that some black people ask little more than "how high" when whites tell them to jump.

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TerryCarr: Egypt is probably the only nation in Africa with a national holiday that has "pagan" influence/origin

Benin has a national day of vodun every January 10. It's a great example to follow.

The spirit world is everywhere....all around you.

Ishilove: Lucky you. The damned spirits have brought me and my household nothing but headaches and heartaches. My maternal aunt embraced them wholeheartedly but it didn't stop them from taking her second daughter when the poor child was just fourteen. My great cousin who was like one of the wealthiest people in that godforsaken little village fell victim to them. My grandmother who was quite a dedicated follower was unceremoniously plucked when she was thirty-six. Another maternal aunt, a mother of eight children was not spared when she turned 39.

I'm sorry to hear about your losses. For me traditional spirituality has always been first and foremost about reconnecting with ancestors which, for you, would include your grandmother. Other spirits are important but I spend most of my energy trying to hear from my ancestors and, therefore, feeding them. Perhaps if you took the opportunity to reach out to some of your deceased family members they could shed light on why they were taken so relatively quickly and guide the living from following in their path.

In all honesty, would you want to honour spirits that have been a thorn in the neck from the very beginning? Forget what that bufoon, CameroonReetard says, there is only one power that deserves honour, and it is not definitely not a bunch of principalities dwelling in the depths of the ocean.

Spirits have existed from the very beginning and have a role to play in the lives of the living. I think it's unwise to pretend that they don't play a role. Every aspect of nature deserves honor and respect. I think this is one major way where traditional spirituality diverges from Abrahamic religions. It seems much more sane to me to acknowledge the awesome power in all of nature....the spirits in nature and work with them instead of seeking to dominate them. I'm reminded of that group of Asian islands who survived the Asian tsunami because they maintained their ancestral ways of determining how nature changes. Many thousands perished frankly because they hadn't maintained an ear to spirit. I want to make sure I do my part so that at least one set of ears in my family are still listening.

CAMEROONPRIDE: mamiwata i urge to stop talking with that airhead, only a fool believe in fairy tales that happened in the middle east and have-had no connection with her...the dude did'nt even know your continent , talkless about your village .. she says we worship idols and we are devils, yet she is whorshipping a dead man lwkd.


mami wata she is taking you on the path of heresy and apostasy beware of christians , muslims and jews they are not our friends.

Most Africans claim to be muslims or christians so, yes, they have the same negative attitudes towards traditionalists as Europeans do. However because they are African I'm determined to give them the respect and room to explain that people don't normally extend to us. I feel the need for dialogue but I understand your frustration. We shouldn't have to explain and defend our traditions with our own people but that's the point where we are at.

CAMEROONPRIDE: ah ha , we exist oooo. the name is BWITI . eh eh your parents are from Benin and you are from mars?

Actually I think I have heard of Bwiti but only in passing. There was a movie I saw a couple of years ago about a guy who cured people's drug addictions using a bark called iboga and I believe he mentioned it is used in Bwiti. Another traditionalist on here also mentioned iboga as a medicine that can be used to heighten spiritual dreams. Are you familiar with iboga? I was born in the U.S. but I say I'm Beninese.

CAMEROONPRIDE: good to see a fellow pagan, i'm happy and glad to meet you. where r u from? keep the good job

Hi! It's good to see you as I've never met a traditionalist from Cameroon. What's the name of your tradition? My parents are from Benin.

Ishilove: The term 'blessing' is subjective. Riches of the world? At what cost have been blessed, Mami Wata? The thing about the devil is he will give you something with one hand and collect it back with the other hand. If feeding these idols is so great, why do they resist when you stop? Why do they raise a clamour if you decide not to have anything to do with them? If they are so powerful, why can't they feed themselves?

My blessings have nothing to do with riches and everything to do with emotional and mental balance. I had a very rough childhood. I have four sisters who have all rejected our traditional religion. They are all hard drug users and/or mentally unstable (as well as Christians). I felt compelled to embrace my traditions and this is what set me apart from them. Because of my choice I am able to lead a healthy life and health is the most important thing for me.

I think it's very disrespectful to equate our traditions with the devil. Vodun existed thousands of years before Christianity was cobbled together. Christianity is where the idea of the devil comes from and that idea is used to brand everything non-Christian but specifically all things African. I don't have any interest in using European labels. Again I try to see everything through my own eyes and I'm constantly saddened that so many Africans have been persuaded to see themselves in the same way that Europeans see us.

Why do the marine spirits come in the form of spirit husband and wives to molest people? Why do they tell a woman that she can't sleep with her husband on so and so day because it is their turn to sleep with her? Why do the marine spirits make men and women promiscuos despite feeding them?

God almighty said if man will not praise Him, he will raise up stones to do so. In other words, He will not force you. Why do these so-called ancestors force people to worship them? They are a terrible bunch who make life a living hell for those unfortunate enough to be born into a lineage where they made convenants with these powers.

I don't know why spirits do the things they do. I'm not a priestess or shaman. All I am is a woman who has benefited from honoring my own traditions instead of someone else's.

Ishilove: They will give honour to one except the Most High God. The thing is once you start feeding these idols, they will never stop demanding.

I've been blessed to get a lot in return from feeding my ancestors. I hope some of them will decide that they also have something to gain in the relationship. They certainly have a lot to lose by not responding!

Ishilove: Sometimes the spirit behind the idol appears to the descendants through dreams and plainly tells them that things will only go fine if they come and pay homage to it. Some of the people take heed and go back to the village to give it its dues. The 'stubborn' ones who refuse to acknowledge it face tough spiritual battles which translate into the physical, and if they are unfortunate, die untimely.

Yes spirits need to be fed to support us. Everything you said is true. I know some stubborn people who suffer unnecessarily. I hope to never fall into that trap! Why do you think the Yorubas you described are so reluctant to make a small offering?

Laalamed: Try to read H.G WELLS BOOK, WAR OF THE WORLDS. U would notice the so called religious wars were motivated by greedy e.g resouces and domination. It is tagged religion war because warring nations or tribes have different religion beliefs e.g catholics(nationalists) and protestants(unionist) in ireland, sunni and shia muslims during iran-iraq war, hindu(india) versus muslim (pakistan) . Those wars were not religious in nature. Leaders used religion to fuel them. And follow patterns of ur ancient pagan(tribal) wars. Let me tell u motives for war are the same: to dominate culturally or politically. Mind u religion is an element of culture. When persia defeated babylon, worship of persia gods were imposed on babylonians. Also when alexandria the great defeated persia, greek culture including religion was imposed on their subjects. Fulani jihadists imposed islam on many maguzawas and ruled over them. Britons took christianity to their colonies and ruled over them. The true is that we are living in pagan world in disguise so expect brutality and killings to continue modern way cos pagans are still in control. Few people are christians.

If you know of any religious war fought by one group of pagans to prostelyze (sp) another group of pagans please do share. To the contrary there are many cases in West Africa where one group conquered another group but then borrowed its spirits and ways of divining used those in their own spirituality. This happened in Dahomey/Benin and amongst the Ashanti. I can imagine it happened elsewhere as well. Unlike the Abrahamic religions the spirits are not "jealous." The attitude in vodun is that if we see something that someone else is wearing we will ask to try it on and make it our own. This lends itself to the synchretism which is why pagan religions still survive in West Africa despite the monotheism of Christianity and Islam. Jesus can exist as a spirit in vodun and vodun will still survive.

I agree that few people are Christians. I wish Christians would spend more time doing missionary work on those who claim to be Christians and leave the rest of us alone. They should focus 100% of their energy on the folks who forget about Jesus as soon as they exit the church doors. It would set a good example if Christians actually did something more than follow hypocrisy as a way of life.

Ishilove: I am from a little known village in the Niger-Delta area of Nigeria. In the village I come from on my mother's side, the village ancestral idol is a Mami Wata idol whose shrine is by the river side. The idol is called 'Emu uno' and is worshipped by the villagers. They sometimes offer sacrifices like biscuits, sweets, live goats etc The irony is the village is one of the most backward and undeveloped in the entire area.

Well I think it's important to note that backward and undeveloped are relative terms that seemed to be constantly used from a European perspective. If one believes that Europeans are the model for mankind then yes a lot of West Africa is "backward" and "undeveloped." However if one uses the Beninese model for mankind then European/western culture is unsustainable and spiritless. I say unsustainable because I know that if everyone consumed at the level of the U.S., the country I was born in, we'd need 4 planets. I've always been happy to go to Benin even though it meant that I can't always take running water or electricity for granted. What I can take for granted there is knowing where my food comes from, being able to go outside without locking my door, a group-oriented culture, and not being consumed by "time" or the need to acquire "things." I stay in the U.S. so I can send money back home, not because I like it better.

Ishilove: What does 'ATR' mean?

I know a lot about Mami Wata spirits by virtue of my home town.

As naptu2 said it means African traditional religion. Where are you from? My parents are from Grand Popo in Benin.

Ishilove: Really? Then why did you select 'Mami Wata' as your moniker? You identify with them, obviously

Because I have a love for ATR's wherever they are and I've seen Mami Wata spirits in all of them. How do you know them?

Ishilove: What I meant is do you belong to the mammy water group?

No I don't have those spirits in my family if that's what you mean.

Ishilove: Unique username you got. Are you one of them?

I'm Beninese yes.

Ishilove: Why was that little boy at the far right always scowling?

I believe this is a picture of Behanzin and family members after being exiled to Algeria due to French defeat. I can't imagine it was a happy life.

[quote author=PAGAN 9JA]^

ok for that use halucenogens. you can use natural products like ibonga root, marijuana, etc. or take little alcohol before you sleep. chant regularly and if you have a shrine to your ancestors, make a sacrifice on it and pray on the spot and pour libation. If not then build a makeshift shrine. use incense or other such items. Try to concentrate on them more often.

Ancestors generally communicate more often with you when you are at your lowest state or when you feel down or about to undertake a great/difficult task.

The key is to concentrate you mindpower on your ancestors when you are awake more often. They will gradually visit you in your subconscious state. .[/quote]Again thank you so much for this knowledge.

Ptolomeus: I know whites, who are part of traditional religion in America, and I can assure that they do so with respect enviable.

There are many who are simply out to make a quick buck and thrive on ignorance to masquerade as authorities. Africans should've learned by now that whites are not to be trusted. It's absurd that Europeans maligned ATR's and are now busy selling them to each other.

[quote author=PAGAN 9JA]because Yoruba religion is admittedly more famous than any of our traditional faiths.[/quote]I wanted to refine what Ptolomeus said. With regards to the Atlantic slave trade, on average Yorubas have been enslaved just as long as any other population. Western Yorubaland collapsed militarily by the early 1800's while the international slave trade was not made illegal throughout latin America until almost 1900. Before 1800's Yorubas were taken in numbers that matched other populations. After the collapse the seizing was unbridled and there was widespread depopulation of Yoruba communities. I think this may be what Ptolomeus was referring to.

What I think is more important is that there tends to be a correlation with certain ethnicities ending up in certain destinations. Jamaica is most well known for its Akan/Ghanaian population. However Yorubas happened to make up the largest group of slaves shipped to Cuba, Brazil, and latin America in general. Both Cuba and Brazil are Catholic which allowed the slaves to hide the Yoruba dieties behind Santeria. In Haiti, by contrast, most of the slaves from the priestly class came from the Benin/Togo/Angola regions so even though Catholicism helped them hide their beliefs what was hidden was Vodun and Angolan spirits rather than the Yoruba spirits. There are, however, Yoruba spirits in Haitian vodun just as there are some remnants of Igbo and Dahomean spirituality in Latin America. In the British Carribean and the U.S. ,however, slaves were met with protestantism so the traditions could not be hidden so easily and essentially died.

tchaik: bros abeg, what is the relationship between Yemaja and the legendary "Mammy Water"; the half-fish side of her anatomy makes me curious.

I was told that Yemaya is a Yoruba equivalent of a Mami Wata spirit. There are many Mami Wata spirits throughout Africa who survived and thrive in Asian spirituality as well.

[quote author=PAGAN 9JA]You are welcome.

outsiders are not supposed to be part of them. It doesn't work like that.

primary reasons for this are ignorance and money.[/quote]Everything in me told me this was true so it's nice to hear confirmation.

Another question: Sometimes my ancestors communicate with me through dreams. How can I increase the frequency of these dreams?

[img]http://1.bp..com/-PRbWf7JYuCE/TlQrhFoeF4I/AAAAAAAAAL4/jV22S75nSMo/s320/MawuLisa.jpg[/img]

Mawu is the female part of MawuLisa, the creator in the vodun pantheon.

Thank you Pagan9ja for creating this thread. Africans need to reclaim their spiritualities or at least know about them. Living in America I know of many white people with interest in ATR's. They are becoming priests and making a product out of ATR's. I don't trust them so this saddens me immensely.

My question: Because ATR's are ethnicity based religions why are outsiders allowed to be part of them?

MrBible: But why did this vodun religion not stop the slave trade and the colonization of West Africa?

Old Benin republic grew rich from the slave trade and therefore had no desire to stop it. In fact some of the royalty discussed ways to ship slaves themselves without European intermediaries. Vodun didn't prevent colonization but colonization also didn't stop vodun.

[quote author=PAGAN 9JA]just go and speak to them. you have wont have to search much. they are very popular. These pics are from Ouidah.[/quote]Thanks I have been to Ouidah before and can't wait to return.

[quote author=PAGAN 9JA]Its not that Vodun absorbed from Ifa Orisha or vice-versa. Both religions have the same roots since the ethnic groups I listed, that practice it (Yoruba, Ewe, etc.,) have common roots that can probably be traced back to the Great Migrations in the past.

Its almost the same thing. just slight differences in terminology,etc. However if you are Beninese, its best to be initiated into Vodun. Over here, Yorubas are initiated into Ifa Orisha.

Initiation is not necessary. If you belong to those ethnic groups, you just need to follow the religion and pray to those Gods and take part in those rituals, etc.[/quote]Hmmm so Fon and Yoruba are related? Well that makes sense and given the similarities of vodun and Yoruba religions it also makes sense that they have a common root. I feel like I am learning things in the states that are not true if this is the case. For example there are many homosexuals who practice vodun because they say it is accepting of homosexuality whereas Yoruba religion is not. Also I was told that women priestesses are allowed in vodun but not in Yoruba religion. I would prefer to learn about these things in Benin instead and am investigating that right now. Did you take these pictures in Benin? Where did you go? How open are the people to sharing traditions?

kufre2010: Amadioha, Ifa, Ombatse, Okija are far more powerful than these foreign gods called Jesus and Mohammed. Many pastor use power from these dieties to protect theirself and also prophesy to get members and milk the money out of their pockets.

How prevalent do you think traditional beliefs are in Nigeria? With which ethnic group are they strongest?

[quote author=PAGAN 9JA]everything in this world began Pagan. PERIOD.[/quote]Indeed it did. I am a Beninese American interested in all traditional West African religions. Thank you so much for this thread. I know that vodun absorbed a lot from the Yoruba pantheon including Ifa. I know people who follow and are initiated in both traditions here in the U.S. Is it the same way in Nigeria?

9lifes: Even if I don't practice stuffs like this,it could be a source of wealth through tourism-so stop hating,try to see things from the non-religious point of view.

It certainly could be. Many Americans are interested in traditional African religions...especially white Americans.

jantavanta: The reason primary school students in English speaking African countries are taught that they were discovered by
the late-comer adventurers; Mungo Park and Lander Brothers, is to instill in the students, a identity of being
White British possessions. This identity resurfaces during moments of despair by wishing for a return
to the "good old days" of "honest" colonial rule.

What is the big deal about a Nigerian or another Black African being elected to serve as a Mayor in Europe which
had being ruled by 18th Dynasty Black Africans in the Ancient Egyptian Empire of the New Kingdom of 15th Century BC, the Roman Empire
27 BC–AD 476 (West); 1453 (East) and the Black African Nobility of Medieval Europe.

Hi blueblood.