Christianity Etc › Re: Religion Section Hall Of Fame 2013 Edition ( sticky) by MyJoe: 5:46pm On Nov 17, 2013 |
Just seen this. Are they there or did I miss them? I mean OLAADEGBU, Mazaje, Davidylan or PastorAIO? |
Christianity Etc › Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by MyJoe: 3:44pm On Nov 17, 2013 |
Uyi Iredia: Actually, it's a need and neccessity for the perpetuation of the human race. It's not compulsory though. Marriage is necessary to perpetuate the human race? Please explain. |
Christianity Etc › Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by MyJoe: 11:03am On Nov 17, 2013 |
jayriginal: Are you going to marry because society expects you to or because you want to?
Because Ive seen that the vast majority of peeps on both sides of the great genital division, marry because society expects them to. They are so conditioned by societal expectations that they actually "think" they want to get married and do so often with tragic consequences.
Marriage is "bondage". Now that might seem harsh but it really isnt. Its bondage voluntarily entered into and for that fact, its important to have ones head in the right place before one embarks on such a life altering adventure. Living with a person other than yourself is difficult. Living with a sibling, with a relative, with parents and so on, is difficult enough. How much more so a stranger?
Sure, your partner wont be a stranger then but you will remember that its difficult living with people who grew up around you since you were little. Now you are bringing someone with her/his own goals, ideas, idiosyncrasies etc. What worked during friendship wont necessarily work during courtship. What worked during courtship wont necessarily work during marriage. This is the truth.
It takes common sense and maturity on both sides to keep a marriage running strong. Problem is, most guys want to be called married but they dont want the limited freedom that comes with it. There has to be compromise on both sides. I think the man is the least likely to compromise "because I be man". He wants to eat his cake and have it. He wants the "good" things of being a bachelor along with the advantages of being married.
Anyway, I think that people should really consider why they are getting married. Its not for everybody. 100 likes I think the mistake is people see marriage as a need or necessity. It is neither. |
Christianity Etc › Re: Why Do People Treat The Jehovah Witnesses Like A Plague by MyJoe: 10:35am On Nov 17, 2013 |
hardbody: The reason is simple, Jesus said if they treated him like sh.it, so also will they treat his followers. For the truth seekers, if you find time to listen to them, they will answer all your question, citing your own bible. It appears to me that they are basically the only people that say it the way it is hence a lot of the other religous propagandists do not want to hear them telling them the gospel truth.
By the way i like your moniker @ booty Be careful o! Na so fornication take dey start.  |
Christianity Etc › Re: @ITALO. Catholics Please Defend Your Doctrines Here by MyJoe: 10:28am On Nov 17, 2013*. Modified: 10:56am On Nov 17, 2013 |
Not sure what the op’s on about. I mean, Catholics don’t deny “tradition”. These doctrines are said to be based, not directly on verses, but on PRINCIPLES found in the Bible. All Christian denominations do this. Let’s illustrate with the first issue raised, infant baptism:
Principles backing infant baptism can easily be located in both the Old and New Testaments. In the OT we saw the Israelites taking their babies to the tabernacle for blessings. In the NT, Jesus himself was, as a baby, taken to the temple (Luke 1) – that was where he encountered Simeon… and Anna, I think. Besides, there is no Bible principle – not one – that is against infant baptism. The idea of infant baptism is obviously to consecrate the child to God at birth and subsequently raise him or her in the ways of God - as seen fit by Catholics.
And how can you seriously purport to biblically question celibacy since it’s a vocation entered into voluntary with precedents in the Bible? Maybe when you’re done questioning the life and writings of St Paul. Three of the remaining four points raised are similarly non-issues which can be dismissed without stopping for breath.
Every Christian denomination is led and dictated to by a man or a group of men. Now, that’s how human institutions function and it would be too much to expect religious movements to be different. Where the men at the top, particularly the pioneers, are cultured and broad-minded we usually have a humane movement that is in some ways progressive and beneficial. Where they are ill-educated and reactionary, we have a commune that is mostly intellectually sterile and with anti-human doctrines.
*Edited* |
Christianity Etc › Re: Should Christians Celebrate Christmas? by MyJoe: 10:28pm On Nov 14, 2013 |
loveroftruth: My friend! Your ignoramce knows no bounds and seems to be increasimg by the day.
The only thing you seem capable pf doing is post lies on NL.
Is Oladegbu a JW ?
That above is a big fat lie, Oladegbu from my Investigation is most likely a Deeper lifer, why and how came you come out here to lie and black mail the Jw saying Oladegbu is a Jw ? Is making your home work no longer a course of wisdom ? Lol. There must be something about this OLAADEGBU that really gets peeps inebriated. In another thread a JW was calling him a Catholic just to get at Catholics. Now we have a Catholic calling him a JW just to score a point against JWs!  |
Christianity Etc › Is Killing A Fly Or Mosquito Murder? by MyJoe(op): 6:01pm On Nov 12, 2013 |
Peter Singer, moral philosopher, answers seven-year-old Edie's question The Guardian, Saturday 2 November 2013 I don't think so. I'm doubtful that insects such as flies and mosquitoes are conscious – that is, that they can feel pain, or enjoy their lives. But even if they can feel pain, something else is needed to make killing so wrong it deserves a word like "murder". We should use that term only for killing a being who wants to go on living – and to want to go on living, you have to be able to understand that you have a future. You, Edie, may be looking forward to Christmas. If an animal can't look forward to the future, killing it is less wrong than killing a being who can plan for the future.
By the way, I don't eat animals. But that is mainly because the way most of them are kept is so horrible – crowded into sheds, never getting to walk around outside, before being trucked to the slaughterhouse. And with pigs and cows – unlike flies and mosquitoes – it's reasonable to believe they have enough sense of the future to want to go on living. http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/nov/02/ask-grown-up-fly-mosquito-murder
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Christianity Etc › Re: Anambra Tragedy: God And Our Gross National Lunacy by MyJoe: 10:51am On Nov 12, 2013 |
Mr Troll: nope. it was, and still is a govt owned university. one of the first in the country 
like I said, I didn't bother asking questions in his class. no time for long talk... A public university - a first generation federal university for that? That is a scandal. But I guess one shouldn't be surprised after seeing the recent magnetism in homosexuality research which was endorsed by a science Ph.D. holder who asked them to quote him anywhere and published by a national newspaper. |
Christianity Etc › Re: Anambra Tragedy: God And Our Gross National Lunacy by MyJoe: 3:23pm On Nov 10, 2013 |
Mr Troll: Lol. It was a female lecturer sha. Still though, i had a male lecturer then who anytime you want to ask a question, he will first of all ask you if you are born again. So i just never bothered asking questions in his class.
Yet, the same man was advising his female project students not to marry outside the Igbo tribe because. . . . This must be one of them private schools. So what happens when you answer that you are not born again? texanomaly: @plaetton...I'm afraid I have derailed your thread here.
@ those who answered my education question...can we discuss this when I come to Nigeria? I would very much like to hear more. Thanks Sure. Great. |
Christianity Etc › Re: Anambra Tragedy: God And Our Gross National Lunacy by MyJoe: 8:12pm On Nov 09, 2013 |
texanomaly: Is there a thread, on this subject, in the education section? As a teacher, I find this disconcerting. It explains a lot. Here in the US we are forbidden, per our constitution, to bring religion into public school. I was educated in this public school system. I did, however, attend a religious university. Leaving religion out of my education did not stop me from having one. I do, however, in this instance see your point. I have been on NL long enough to see it. I would very much like to see how a thread on this subject plays out.
As for Josh, I believe he has studied the bible for himself, with real intent, and he has made his own assessment. I believe he has developed a testimony on his own. In spite of, his upbringing. I believe he IS smart enough to NOT allow societal bias to color his study, and understanding of scripture. The intent of leaving religion out of the school system is not actually to prevent people from being religious. It is to compartmentalize it and restrict it to the churches and mosques where it belongs. I actually feel religion should be taught in schools – not as a faith system as they do currently, but as Comparative Religion taught academically and possibly incorporated into the same course with philosophy and logic. I also don’t think religion is bad per se and I am cool with religious people who retain their reason. You may not realize the value of the education you had until you actually meet and interact with one of us. I don’t know if you believe that the Adam and Eve story is the literal account of how man started life one earth barely 6000 years ago, but I’m sure you don’t believe you can buy a car on a Nigerian labourer’s salary if you simply pray at a night vigil or that you can get travelling privileges by going for “visa anointing”. No, I have not brought it up in the education section. Discussing serious issues on NL often has its challenges – particularly outside of this section for us religious section addicts. But I do have some other plans. If things go well, a friend should make it into the federal House of Reps next election and we hope to table some of these things. As for Josh, did you read the thread where he and others were defending Bible slavery? If I were them, I would have said, “Slavery existed in the Bible with the apparent backing of God. I don’t know why God permitted slavery among his people but that and other things I can't comprehend do not affect my faith in him.” That’s what I mean by religious people retaining some reason. |
Christianity Etc › Re: Anambra Tragedy: God And Our Gross National Lunacy by MyJoe: 1:46pm On Nov 09, 2013 |
For a Christian's (noetic) response to some of the points raised here, see this thread. |
Christianity Etc › Re: Anambra Tragedy: God And Our Gross National Lunacy by MyJoe: 10:07am On Nov 09, 2013 |
texanomaly: Is it not already? No, they’re not. Only mathematics is in theory but you can find a way around that. You read what Plaetton wrote – the system was never designed to develop the individual. The result is that every individual has his own tiny universe which begins and ends with his religion. Imagine when someone learnt I don’t go to church and her question – not jokingly, but seriously – was “so what do you do on Sundays?” Someone else on learning I don’t pray stared at me the way she would a child molester who’s also a serial killer and a Yobe terrorist and muttered that she had never encountered that sort of person in her life. I read a post where Logicboy described Joshthefirst as dumb. He is wrong. Josh is quite intelligent. At least he writes good sentences and I am sure that in a non-religious conversation he would be able to talk intelligently. The problem is that he is captive to a concept. When he is defending, say Jephthah’s sacrifice he is not talking from his own intellectual processes but merely repeating something handed to him. What proper education can do is create some AWARENESS in the individual and give him the tools to THINK properly. |
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Christianity Etc › Re: Religion Finally Explained: A Link Btw Religion And Epilepsy by MyJoe: 11:53am On Nov 03, 2013 |
I see we've turned full circle. I mean, over 200 years ago Benjamin Rush, a professor and "the father of American psychiatry", said not believing in God was a mental disorder.
More seriously, though, a lot of the attributes Wiegraf describe would apply to many, if not most, of the religion pioneers. But I guess their believing in tooth fairies would make theirs "bad madness".
"Madness" is subjective, not objective. For the most part. |
Christianity Etc › Re: Pope To Auction Harly Davidson Motorcycle by MyJoe: 11:02am On Nov 03, 2013 |
So the pope is a fellow biker. Cool. |
Christianity Etc › Re: The Philosophy Of Truth Through Pictorial Arguments by MyJoe: 11:26am On Nov 01, 2013 |
truthislight: If the atheist we have on this forum is half as opened minded as you, then the effort being expended on them would have been worth it.
*though it is most probable that it will yield any useful outcome, since there are probable extraneous reasons responsible for that*
However:
Good of you to allow reasonableness to see the light of day.
But
'You' : "The atoms themselves have an arrangement decided by tiny individualistic sub-particles, which make the most dazzling behaviour"
^ base on that your observation of the rock and its composition, what then caused it to defy its natural composition to become the other comparable object, soft and mealable with a 'mind'(since the brain is made from similar matter) ?
Does the blind rock have a mind of its own that directed it to attain such a ........ ? Smh.
How did it move from A(rock) to B(brain) ? Please, explain.
yeah! Easy to make a leap instead of contemplating certain foundamental questions, jumping is easy and convenient.
The pupies with closed eyes accessing the mothers nipples to suckle is not worth the effort, is not worth asking how and why that is inherent amongst this animals/mamals, at such a tender age though the rock cannot move itself. That same pupy, when dead is like the rock in question, why the difference ?
why all those ^ and not matter lying down ? Is the rock and the dead body not the same compositions ? Why all that that you are talking about : "Monarchy. Traditional Authority" ? No need, when you see rocks, say such to it.
What directs the move from matter to living man and back to matter ? Is the rock that intelligent to undergo all those processes all by itself? I will say yes, why not ? Afteral, there was no intelligence needed to direct all that.
Dont blame me for my conclussions. The world and earth and the univers did not need any intelligence to direct affires in it, Let alone the human brain. My own house fell from the skies, the skies are the magical places where houses are form without a builder.
SMH SMH SMH SMH SMH................
Sometimes, i just wander if certain set of people are worth the effort. SMH Bravo. I see your writing has improved a great deal. It appears that what the Theocratic Ministry School could not do in years Nairaland has done in months. Seun must hear this! If I had the ears of those concerned (the governing elders), I would ask them to include writing exercises in the TMS, instead of just talk, talk and talk. Writing may not have been of much apparent use to “kingdom interests” in the past but nowadays with these Internet forums and the need for you young Kingdom soldiers to go online and fly the flag, change is inevitable. It’s too early yet for me to say whether you are now able to follow structured arguments or not. But, most importantly, it appears that while your writing has improved your mind has not. As you can be seen doing against me here, you still pluck lies out of your bottom to defend Jehovah. |
Christianity Etc › Re: The Philosophy Of Truth Through Pictorial Arguments by MyJoe: 11:48pm On Oct 30, 2013 |
plaetton: I get it. But that house needing a builder phrase is too childish. If you find a vacant house, you can always find out the owner and the builder by going to a local land registry.
The same logic can also be used to question the ancestry of god. Since , by that logic , everything intelligent system must have designer and builder, then god, as an intelligent system on his owns, owes his own unique characteristics to a prior designer and builder as well.
We know where that leads to. Just to be clear - that wasn't about cause. It was about design. And like I said, the atheist argument against the the first is sound. The arguments I have read against the second elsewhere and on this thread are not. To be clear also, there isn't necessarily evolution VERSUS design. |
Christianity Etc › Re: The Philosophy Of Truth Through Pictorial Arguments by MyJoe: 12:40pm On Oct 30, 2013 |
Logicboy03: Gbam......Deepsight is the master of sophistry.
The guy can write beautifully and in a verbose manner without making any factual point. I think you're attacking the person. The use of flowery language or play on words does not necessarily amount sophistry. Not that there is flowery language here, to start with. |
Christianity Etc › Re: Most PASTORS TODAY ARE ATHEISTS, They Dont Just Boast About It by MyJoe: 12:28pm On Oct 30, 2013 |
Logicboy03: Yes, all the bad pastors are atheists.
mtchew.....keep covering up for your failed religion While the above rants might be dismissable as the outbursts of a religion militant, a lot of clergy are of the atheistic outlook. |
Christianity Etc › Re: The Philosophy Of Truth Through Pictorial Arguments by MyJoe: 12:04pm On Oct 30, 2013 |
Deep Sight: How have you been friend? Been a while. Hope cool. I'm doing good. I trust you are too. You know very well that I have always spoken of both intuition and logic. Even in that post, I referred to both. I believe both are central to the matter.
Plaetton's posts on this matter are meaningless. I have explained why already. I am tired and cannot repeat myself.
In summary he says that we cannot know or derive any objective truth from what we see, because what we see is entirely subjective. This really means that no objective truth can ever be known. Not even in science - which he contradictory then flaunts as the answer - as science is based, primarily, on what we see and sense, around us, and our observation of same. He says that this observation cannot be trusted. What this means is that nothing can be known about anything - not even in science.
Its a simple point.
Everything I need to say has been said in my previous posts.
Its as simple as presenting an object for discussion, and being told that no discussion can be had about the object as everything we see about the object is subjective, and as such, nothing objective can be known about the object. This is a killer blow for even all science, and leans in favor of those who say that the world is an illusion, and does not objectively exist.
In short, the word "objective" ceases to exist.
If you look at my earlier response to him, you will see that I did not say that it is necessarily wrong: I said that it is meaningless, empty and escapist.
It's just a meaningless argument to make: a lame, irrelevant and escapist one, and as I said before, can be said in response to anything and everything: including your existence and mine. Yes, you have consistently spoken of your belief in God being anchored on intuition and empiricism. “ Appeal to intuition”, then, wasn’t the best way for me to put it. I disagree with much of what plaetton has written – however, some quick points. If the question “Is there EVIDENCE for God?” is asked, a Yes or a No would both be good answers, in my view. Here’s why. 1. God is not tangible – no one has ever seen him. 2. God is not to be seen in this dimension so the tools of science and research are useless in finding him. 3. Extra-sense perceptions of God, dreams, near death experiences, soul travel, etc, are subjective experiences – I mean, they always present a porter only the experiencer can log on to. (That explains why materialists like Martian and logicboy would hastily, and probably in ignorance, dismiss them as either lies, reading too much into ordinary things, or pure hallucinations.) 4. “Intuition” is tendentious, spectacularly subjective, and cannot be relied upon for the apprehension of objective truth. Logicboy did a sound critique of it above. I put a very similar argument to you in the past – where logicboy used the illustration of tribal folks believing the world is flat, I used that of Hindus venerating cows. 5. Outside an individual’s head, extra-sense perceptions cannot be equated with sense perceptions – that will make nonsense of the word “objectivity”. 6. The First Cause argument is good. But so is the counterargument. I recall a cousin telling me he believes in God simply because he is comfortable with that position. At the end of the day that is what it often comes down to for the majority of thinking people – the position you prefer, since, according to Kierkegaard, you have to take a position. Personally, I believe in the creator God because I am convinced that while a stone can have landed on the roadside without someone deliberately putting it there, the house I live in can’t have come about that way (“the improbable protrusion in reality”). But some atheists (like plaetton), on other hand, have reviewed the science available which tells them that the Big Bang came out of nothing without an apparent need for intelligent intervention. Some other atheists (like mazaje) insist that we don’t really know how it all started and since we can’t see any God or lightenings of him (and can't know even if we do since we don't know what God looks or sounds like) we can’t just conclude that God must be responsible. No lack of depth or thought there. Besides, if we accept your argument we would have to accept the reverse argument that believers are necessarily the ones with depth and thought. |
Christianity Etc › Re: "I Know I'm A Sinner, But I Confess My Sins To God Daily...." by MyJoe: 5:53pm On Oct 29, 2013 |
plaetton: So where lies your personal responsibility in life? To say thank you Jesus for paying your fine for you?
Christianity is unique in this regard because it is the only religion that removes personal responsibility from an individual because another person has supposedly covered it. I am sorry bros, but that looks like a joke of a religion. Unique it is. |
Christianity Etc › Re: The Philosophy Of Truth Through Pictorial Arguments by MyJoe: 5:48pm On Oct 29, 2013 |
texanomaly: Sir forgive my intrusion. Please. Your reputation precedes you. I stopped to see what all the fuss was about. I must say, I was highly impressed. Right up until you made this statement. I will speak frankly here, because we are all, surely, wearing our 'big boy' pants. You know very well Sir, that this statement is not completely accurate. You allowed these gentleman to ruffle your feathers, so to speak.
You have impressive skills I'll admit, but here you fall my hand Sir. Forgive me. I realize you don't know me, and may not care. There are many on NL who look up to you, and admire you. Perhaps if you give credit where credit is due, these guys may be more likely to take what you are trying to impart seriously. Probably not, but one can hope. They are for the most part, highly intelligent, with thought provoking questions. Now granted, they are misguided, but they can't help that.
That is all I wanted to say. Thank you for your time, and for taking up this gauntlet. As it were . I agree with the highlighted – have been through it with Deep Sight once or twice. But I think he really believes it when he says it. Atheism is not a lack of deep thought. Deep Sight’s appeal to “intuition” doesn’t help that argument either. |
Christianity Etc › Re: Atheists, Let's Be Honest- The People Who Formed Religions Were The Smartest by MyJoe: 5:30pm On Oct 29, 2013 |
mazaje: Some one once said. . ."All religions were created out of the fear of the many and the cleverness of a few". . . Actually, they weren’t. The religions may have FED on the cleverness of a few but the start of religion – the personal or organized effort to comprehend, propitiate and commune with supernatural beings – started out of more honest feelings and cravings, even if ignorant and superstitious. How is you doing, mazaje? |
Christianity Etc › Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by MyJoe: 7:06pm On Oct 27, 2013 |
truthislight: Hehehehe 
what else can one expect from your like, other than such ^.
What you get out of a can is a function of the content of the can.
Though the truth is bitter to some.
Have a nice day. Very good you knew what to expect - at least, you claim to. Now go ahead and prove you weren't lying for Jehovah as always in your claim about the CD denial. That should be easy. |
Christianity Etc › Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by MyJoe: 2:03pm On Oct 27, 2013 |
truthislight: i can still recall a discussion with you were you said that "your friend a JW let you lay your hands on something you should not have layed your hands on" when i said that it was a "CD wt library" you denied it, but see you here saying it yourself with your own words.
How true then can one take your utterances? Despite strong evocations to the contrary, I remain advised that the “truthislight” handle belongs to a human rather than a bot. While only a bot would normally exhibit such spectacular want of ability to recall correctly, cogitate or parse, one must make some allowance for the religious fool splashing about the pool of lies in a wretched undertaking to discredit a Nairalander and defend his Jehovah. And what utterance have I made here that requires your taking them as true rather than easy verification? |
Health › Re: The Truth About Eggs by MyJoe: 7:44pm On Oct 05, 2013 |
chrystee: @annybliss, Thanks 4 taking time to research and enlighten us on this topic. My husband is an egg lover. He eats two eggs each day and it used to bother me because I used to associate egg consumption with high cholesterol which I heard was bad for the heart. Now I have a better understanding of the diff types of cholesterol and I now know dt the type of cholesterol gotten from eggs isn't linked to heart problems. Actually, you should do MORE research on your own. Just saying. |
Food › Re: Are There Vegetarians In Nigeria? by MyJoe: 7:22pm On Oct 05, 2013 |
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Christianity Etc › Re: Muskeeto, Ihedinobi, Lb...lets Talk Here :-) by MyJoe: 9:45pm On Aug 22, 2013 |
So what did I think of my time in Nigeria? In truth, I didn’t like it, but not for the reasons you might think. The worst thing, by far, was not being able to go anywhere and do anything at the weekends. The security situation did not allow us to travel beyond a very restricted area of Lagos, and even if we could there wasn’t much to do. I like walking about with a camera, camping, exploring by going to a town and drinking lots, skiing, driving around, visiting people, riding a bike, and hill walking. There was no scope to do any of that in Lagos, for reasons usually related to security. That meant for weekend after weekend after weekend there was nothing to do but watch sports on TV, go to the gym, and lie by the pool. Those with families did whatever families do; the single guys went to bars and clubs and picked up Nigerians girls; guys like me – married, single status – didn’t do very much at all. I used the time well, learned French, read countless books, improved on the guitar, and got fit. Nigeria has excellent weather, and even better pineapples, but I would much rather have spent my time doing something else in another place.
Those restrictions were by far the worst aspect of my Nigerian assignment. Insofar as the daily life in Lagos went, with all its challenges, that was manageable. You get used to anything eventually, and at some point I was able to shrug off almost everything Nigeria had to throw at me. I never quite got used to the traffic, so used to plan my day to avoid the worst of it. Dealing with the Nigerians took some getting used to, a process that was eased considerably when I figured out they weren’t the most difficult factor to consider. There’s rarely any point in getting upset about locals anywhere, because they are the raw material you have to work with. If you go to Nigeria, you will have to work with Nigerians, so deal with it. Some aspects of it were frustrating no doubt, but what can I do? Nothing.
What infuriated me more was that some of the expats I encountered were hopelessly unqualified and too inexperienced to be there. Nigeria is a difficult place to attract talent to, and as such – like a lot of oil towns worldwide – those who end up coming are usually way below the standard that should be demanded. Unbelievably, incompetence and stupidity seem to be imported at great expense into Nigeria. This annoyed me considerably, as it did when I encountered a similar state of affairs in Sakhalin. If you are going to come into somebody else’s country on the basis that you have skills they don’t, you’d better make damned sure you have those skills and they are on full view. If I had a quid for every time I’ve seen somebody fail this basic test in the oil business, I could retire and bump yachts in Monaco with Roman Abramovich. I’m pretty sure I upset a few people in Nigeria, and maybe there were a few who didn’t want me there, but nobody could accuse me of not adding value. Nobody could point the finger at me and ask “Why, exactly, do we keep this guy?” If nobody else, the lads in my team didn’t mind me.
I gave them direction, support, and cover and got somewhere close to the best out of them. What infuriated me more than anything was coming across a Nigerian with a reputation for being useless, and on further investigation learning that they’d never been given a job description, never been given any meaningful direction, had no understanding of the context of their job in the department or the department in the company, and had just been plonked at a desk and expected to do something. I came across this far more than I should have, and it pissed me off. Fair enough, if somebody is useless then call them useless; but first you have to give them every opportunity to succeed, and only then can you call them useless if they don’t perform. Hey, you could even call this practice management! There was a serious lack of it in Nigeria. How many half-decent Nigerians are shoved in the corner of an office and written off as useless in this manner I don’t know, but I’ll bet it’s a lot, and it does the place a serious disservice.
As final proof that I didn’t dislike the place that much, I signed up to another 3 years of involvement when I had the opportunity to get out away from Nigeria for good. I learned some things during my assignment in Lagos, and that knowledge is useful. I know Nigeria, and what it’s like to work with Nigerian companies and Nigerian people on a Nigerian project. A lot of people don’t. I’m used to it, it doesn’t hold any mystery or reason for fear as it did when I first arrived almost 3 years ago.
I’ll be back there at various points in the future, but honestly I hope I don’t have to live there permanently again for the reasons I stated. I don’t consider it 3 years wasted – far from it – and I didn’t hate it. There were moments, plenty of them, where I positively enjoyed it. And as assignments to Nigeria go, that’s not too bad. http://saharareporters.com/article/end-assignment-nigeria-by%C2%A0tim-newman |
Christianity Etc › Re: Muskeeto, Ihedinobi, Lb...lets Talk Here :-) by MyJoe: 9:44pm On Aug 22, 2013 |
By contrast – and I challenge any Nigerian reading this to disagree – there have been no discernible improvements in Nigeria in the past decade (outside of Abuja, where all the politicians happen to live). The infrastructure is crumbling, electricity shortages abound, Lagos airport is a national disgrace, project after project gets sanctioned but rarely started, never mind completed, before the funds disappear, and unemployment is rocketing. I heard somewhere that 2m people are added to the workforce every year in Nigeria. To do what, exactly? There are no jobs. One source of employment for young men was to drive okadas, until they abruptly got banned in Lagos last year. The roads are now much better, but you now have tens of thousands of young men with no source of income and no hope for a job. Since the ban came into effect, crime – robberies, car-jackings, burglaries – have increased by an order of magnitude, even in the rich neighbourhoods of Lagos previously thought to be safe. It’s not difficult to see why.
Meanwhile, Nigerian senators – of whom there are 109 – enjoy an official package worth $1.5m per year, which they recently requested to be increased to $2.2m per year. By contrast, the US President gets an annual salary of $400k. Given the unofficial incomes of a Nigerian senator through graft and backhanders is probably 3-5 times that, we can probably estimate most of these guys are taking home something in the order of $4-5m each year. Yet they put in for a 46% increase, in a country where 45% of the population lives beneath the poverty line. This is hardly surprising for a group of politicians, and far from unique to Nigeria. The problem is, this behaviour is repeated through every strata of society from the very top of the government to the lowest street urchin: whatever is there, I want all of it; and I want more. I saw wealthy middle-class Nigerians move to ensure drivers did not enjoy a fringe benefit worth about $10 per week. If you threatened to report a low-level official for corruption, he would usually tremble with fear of his boss finding out: not because his boss shuns corruption, but because he will want to know why the proceeds of this particular scam haven’t been coming to him. We already had the example of a multi-million dollar oil cargo being held up until somebody’s relative received a kick-back worth $10. If any amount of new money arrives in the economy – due to a new oil project, for example – those who are already wealthy, via their societies, organisations, unions, and political connections will ensure 100% of that new money will go to them. Insofar as sharing and dividing the spoils goes, it is between groups who are already of the same wealth. If any trickles down to the next layer, it is almost by accident, and to be corrected at the first opportunity.
I came to the conclusion about 2 years into my assignment that Nigeria is probably the only genuinely classless society I have seen. Class is very different from wealth. Upper class people can be dirt poor (bankrupt dukes) and lower class people can be fabulously rich (Russian oligarchs). Class is about behaviour and attitudes, not wealth (a point made very well in Kate Fox’s excellent book Watching the English). And insofar as behaviour goes, I didn’t see a shred of difference between the top politicians, down through the officials in the national authorities, through the middle class professionals, through the service providers, right down to the area boys. The behaviour was identical across all strata: I want more money, and I will do absolutely anything to get it. If you were to replace the politicians – let’s say our 109 senators from before – with 109 random people from the Nigerian citizenry, you would get no change in behaviour. You could repeat the experiment a thousand times, and you would get no change. There is no ruling class in Nigeria, there is just a set of rulers. Where any change is expected to come from I don’t know.
I believe one of the root causes is the bizarre situation where being dishonest is not socially frowned upon. Not really, anyway. If somebody is caught with his hand in the till, he is not shunned by his peers. The whole situation is treated with utter indifference, and sometimes admiration (if the scam is particularly imaginative). Societal pressure plays an enormous role in shaping the behaviour of a population, probably more so than the brute force of the law, and whilst all Nigerians complain about the crime and dishonesty so prevalent in their country (it affects them far more than the expats), they remain utterly silent when a perpetrator is identified from within their peer group. At best, you’ll get a shrug and a statement to the effect of “that’s just how it is”. If you’re a Nigerian caught running a scam against your employer, your colleagues aren’t going to think any less of you.
In fact, the only behaviour I managed to identify which would cause a Nigerian to be shunned by his peers and made an outcast, is if he decided he wasn’t a believer and therefore wasn’t going to be showing up in church (or mosque) any more. I don’t think I met a single Nigerian who didn’t attend either church or mosque, and religion plays an enormous – possibly the key – role in Nigerian society. I’m not going to go into this topic, mainly because I’m not reflexively anti-religion, but I do suspect that a lot of Nigerians justify unsavoury behaviour during the week by going to church on Sunday and washing themselves of sin. In this respect, the place is very similar to the Gulf States.
Now a reminder of what I said at the beginning of this post. Degree matters. You will find every type of individual in Nigeria, including the kind, funny, generous, honest, and everything else that is good in a person. You’ll find lots of them too. I had the pleasure of working with some great individuals, who were genuinely skilled, could apply themselves, held positions on merit, and were extremely well-mannered and respectful. The team of Nigerians I managed was one of the nicest bunch of people you’d ever hope to meet, and easy to manage as well. (My theory is that engineers are often like this: if you’re bone-idle and want to earn money dishonestly, there are easier things to do than an engineering degree.) The problem these decent people have is that they are vastly outnumbered by those who are not. For every Nigerian who is honest, well-mannered, and diligent you’ll find a hundred whose only goal is to get some money whilst expending the minimum amount of effort possible. If they can use personal connections, lies, or trickery in lieu of learning a useful skill and applying it, they’ll take that option every time. It’s a numbers thing: if 50% of Nigerians were more like 10% of them, the country would be okay. And that’s the fundamental problem of Nigeria summed up in one sentence: way too many dickheads.
When I was bored in our morning meetings – which was on most days – I would canvas my team’s opinion on certain things, often the state of the country. They were by and large in despair. Nigerians are famously optimistic, but this is often through desperation. Nowhere was this better demonstrated than on the occasion when a bank put a Christmas tree up on a roundabout with “presents” at the bottom, and the next morning all the presents had been ripped open. If somebody thinks a box under a tree on a roundabout contains an X-Box, then you’ve gone way beyond optimism and into desperation or delusion.
My lads were a happy enough bunch – as Nigerians usually are – but had no hope of things getting better any time soon. I ventured the suggestion that a return to military dictatorship might be on the cards, and I got no objection. One of them explained that during the times of military dictatorship, it was only a handful of people at the top creaming off money. Now, with democracy, it’s tens of thousands. And during the military dictatorship, crime was much lower, and few had concerns about personal security. Democracy is all well and good, but I’ve often said that it is a means to an end, not an end in itself. I am sure the world will howl with outrage and impose sanctions should Nigeria undergo another military coup, but few can deny that democracy is failing to deliver peace, prosperity, and basic services to Nigeria. I remain far from convinced that many Nigerians would not welcome such an event. |
Christianity Etc › Re: Muskeeto, Ihedinobi, Lb...lets Talk Here :-) by MyJoe: 9:44pm On Aug 22, 2013 |
This had the effect of drowning every other form of enterprise and ensuring that oil and gas was the only game in town. This is bad in itself, but by no means unique to Nigeria. What was worse is that this quickly instilled a mentality across Nigeria that there was a lot of money up for grabs, and getting your hands on it wasn’t in any way related to honest efforts or applying yourself to something constructive. Nigeria became a place where if you’re not getting your hands on some of the oil money, either directly or indirectly, then you’re going nowhere. With oil money washing over the whole country like a tidal wave, soon everyone was trying to secure their own piece of the action, using fair means or foul. Imagine throwing a huge box of sweets into a playgroup shouting “Grab what you can!”, and the chaos that ensues will be similar to what happened to Nigeria on a national scale.
At least, this is what I gather happened – I may be wrong – but for sure, the current situation reflects what I’ve described. The economy is funded almost exclusively from oil and gas revenues, and everything else is merely feeding off that. The new hotels in Lagos, the growth of capital city of Abuja, the importation of luxury goods, the Audi and Porsche dealerships, the sky-rocketing real estate prices, the money earmarked for infrastructure projects, the increase in flight passengers, all of it is directly or indirectly linked to the oil money. Okay, maybe there is some hyperbole in there. Agriculture still makes up the lion’s share of GDP, and the services sector is booming. Advertising is a big industry in Lagos, although the most common thing you see advertised is advertising space. But nobody is going to get anywhere herding cattle, picking pineapples, or working in a sawmill. Even the owners won’t be earning that much, not if that’s their only income. There is very little opportunity to get rich, or even advance, unless you are somehow connected to the supply of oil money.
One of the results of this national free-for-all is the formation of groups, societies, associations, and unions whose raison d’être is to obtain as much money and benefits for their members as possible. This isn’t much different from Europe in respect of trade unions, but groups and subgroups form at micro-levels with sometimes comical precision. The Lagos Association of Road Maintenance Engineers, Roundabout and Lay-by Division, 4th Department. The Nigerian Association of Water Truck Drivers, Lagos Chapter. Membership of one or more of these associations is both essential and compulsory: essential because an individual would get trampled very quickly in the general melee of Nigeria, and compulsory in the sense that you have almost no chance of being allowed to quietly ply your trade without paying dues to some group or other. It’s not clear what the legal standing of a lot of these groups is, but it’s often hard to tell how they differ from a standard extortion racket. One of the most powerful unions in Lagos, the transport union, used to shake down any okada (motorcycle taxi) driver passing through their checkpoints, claiming the money was used “to protect them from the police”.
I doubt the money was used in such a manner, but people do need protection from the police in Lagos. Not that the okada drivers had any say in the matter: membership was automatic, and the union muscle would beat any non-compliant driver or confiscate his vehicle. The power of the oil and gas workers unions is legendary, ensuring their members enjoy pay and benefits which are the highest of any local staff in the world, and often outstrip those of the expatriates.
This in itself might not be so damaging, but ubiquitous to all competing factions is a rapacity the likes of which I doubt can be found anywhere else on such a scale. There is a culture so prevalent that it is a defining characteristic of Nigeria whereby no amount is ever enough, and no sum too small to be pilfered. There comes a point in the career of most people who have gotten rich, either legitimately or otherwise, where they stop chasing the small stuff and are only interested in adding to their pile if the increase will be substantial. The police chief of a sizable Thai resort town has his fingers in many pies, but he’s not interested in shaking down street vendors. His minions might in order to supplement their salaries, but generally once the boss has his cut of most of the action, he’s not interested in sweeping up every last baht. As a result, commerce can continue relatively unmolested. The same is roughly true amongst the Sheikhs of the Middle East. Bung the Crown Prince a few million for the contract, and he’ll allow the project activities to go ahead pretty freely. He’s not interested in making an extra $10k by insisting you hire his brother’s lorry fleet to transport the gravel. Such restraint may also be practical: the dodgy official in the UK isn’t going to be interested taking pennies if he risks getting fired or going to jail, he’ll have a minimum price he’ll work for.
But Nigeria has the same problem I saw in Russia: an almost pathological insistence of securing for yourself 100% of everything that is available, and not a kopek or kobo less. I have observed before that Russians would rather have 100% of nothing than 50% of something, and the same is true – but on a far greater scale – in Nigeria. The inequality in Nigeria is horrific. The middle-classes are tiny, those who are neither stinking rich nor mired in poverty. As it happens, most of the Nigerians I worked with fell into this category: lucky enough to have well-paying jobs, but not ordering Porsche Cayennes for each family member. Statistically, almost all Nigerians are dirt poor. A very few are stinking rich. Again, a manageable problem in itself, but the rich haven’t finished yet. Indeed, they’re only just getting started. I spoke to a couple of Angolans in a seminar once, and they said that although their ruling classes had enriched themselves immeasurably, they were at least spending some money on the country, and improvements were noticeable. The reason the Russians accept with a shrug the siloviki helping themselves to millions is because they (rightly) feel this is inevitable and – more importantly – life is actually improving in Russia and has been doing so since they came to power. Sure, it’s a slow improvement and life is still hard, but they are at least moving in the right direction (for how long is a discussion for another post). There have been improvements in infrastructure in Russia, the new Sheremetovo airport to name one example. |
Christianity Etc › Re: Muskeeto, Ihedinobi, Lb...lets Talk Here :-) by MyJoe: 9:43pm On Aug 22, 2013 |
The End Of An Assignment In Nigeria By Tim Newman
By Tim Newman
Okay, so now I’ve got a post about Melbourne out of the way it’s time for me to say a little something about Nigeria. With the exception of a week in October when I need to clear out my apartment, I’ve pretty much left Nigeria. My assignment there officially finished on 31st July, although I will have to return for business trips over the course of the next 3 years because the project I am on in Melbourne is for Nigeria.
Somebody once said that there is much to write about Russia, but when one tries you can never find the words to write the first line. Nigeria is much the same, and indeed there are many similarities between the two countries. I have tried to describe Nigeria to people who have never been there, and failed on most occasions. A colleague of mine stopped telling people back home about the place because he was getting a reputation as somewhat of a bullshitter, even though he didn’t exaggerate anything. I was at a seminar in Paris some time ago and I was describing the working life in Nigeria to a group of Frenchmen. One of them quipped that I was exaggerating and that “it couldn’t be that bad”, which prompted another Frenchman, sitting beside me, to nudge me in the ribs and remarked “wait until he does his Nigerian assignment”. He was based in Port Harcourt.
Nigeria has a reputation, and I knew about it before I arrived. Most of what I’d heard proved to be completely true. Almost all of it, in fact. To get a general picture of Nigeria, just read the news, and you’ll not be far wrong. It isn’t a place like Russia, the US, or France which surprise visitors when they see the contrast between what they’ve imagined (based on exposure to their tourists or foreign policy) and the individuals they encounter. But beyond the general picture, there are some subtleties worth mentioning.
It’s first important to understand that degree is as important as form. Russians, faced with criticism of corruption in their country, often retort that corruption is found everywhere, even in the UK. Which is true, but in many countries it does not infest every authority, office, and institute like it does in Russia. It is the degree, or extent, of corruption which makes Russia different from the UK, not the form. Understanding this concept is important in describing Nigeria.
There is no getting away from the fact that corruption in Nigeria has infested almost every aspect of life, work, and society. I can’t think of a single area where I didn’t encounter a scam of some sort. Some of them were pretty normal – policemen hassling motorists for bribes, for example – with others being less common elsewhere. Filling brand named alcohol bottles with local hooch was widespread practice. Not so bad in itself, but these were being sold through supposedly legitimate suppliers and turning up in established bars. Others were unique to Nigeria. I knew a guy in charge of oil shipments for a foreign oil company who received a call from somebody in the authorities saying he was not going to release the multi-million dollar cargo until somebody had bought his cousin $10 worth of phone credit. My acquaintance found himself going to the shop, buying a phone card, and handing it over to some scruffy bloke who showed up at his office in order to allow his crude oil out of the country.
The corruption, theft, and graft can take many forms: falsifying a CV (I don’t mean enhancing, I mean pretending you’re a Lead Piping Engineer of 12 years experience when actually, until yesterday, you were a fisherman); selling positions in a company; stealing diesel from the storage tanks you’re paid to protect; issuance of false material certificates; impersonating an immigration officer to access an office, from which you then tap up the people within to fund your latest venture; selling land which isn’t yours; deliberately running down the country’s refining capacity in order to partake in the lucrative import of fuels; falsifying delivery notes of said refined fuels in order to receive greater government subsidies; deliberately restricting the country’s power generation capacity in order to benefit from the importation of generators (which must be run on imported fuel); theft of half-eaten sandwiches and opened drink containers from the office fridge; tinkering with fuel gauges at petrol stations to sell customers short; conspiring with company drivers to issue false receipts indicating more fuel was supplied than actually was; supplying counterfeit safety equipment; falsifying certificates related to professional competence (e.g. rope access work); paying employees less than stipulated in their contract (or not at all); cloning satellite TV cards, meaning the legitimate user gets their service cut off when the other card is in use (the cards are cloned by the same people who issue the genuine cards); the list is literally endless. There is no beginning or end to corruption in Nigeria, it is a permanent fixture.
Nepotism is rife: family members are employed and promoted before anyone else. Outright theft is rife: from a pen lying on a desk, to billions from the state coffers. Dishonesty is rife: from the state governors to the street urchin, lying to enrich yourself is the norm. You name the scam, it is being done in Nigeria. Eventually, nothing surprises you. As I said before, you’ll find such practices everywhere, but to nowhere near the extent found in Nigeria.
Apparently it wasn’t always like this. There was a time, probably from around the 1970s to 1990s, when Nigeria had a reasonably diverse economy. Besides the oil and gas, they had agriculture, manufacturing and assembly (Peugeot set up an assembly plant in Nigeria in the mid-1970s), brewing (there is a both a Guinness and a Heineken brewery), refining, construction, and pharmaceuticals. Some of these survive today. There were decent universities, and students wishing to graduate had to apply themselves. Security wasn’t much of a concern to the average citizen. I don’t know the details, but at some point in the 1990s one of the military dictators decided to flood the place with oil money in order to buy support. |
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Christianity True? The Greatest Conspiracy Ever by MyJoe: 5:59pm On Jul 05, 2013 |
mazaje: If your assertion is true then why not say that the message in Galatians was only for the church in Galatians. . .By the way the injunction for women not to speak in public and usurp the authority of men was repeated by Paul in his letter to Timothy. . .
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 1 Timothy 2:12
Or are you going to come with the excuse that the letter was addressed to Timothy alone?. . .If that is the case then why not just jettison everything written in the bible because it was addressed to specific people and never addressed to any body in the 21st century. . . Classic. Great posts, Mazaje (Ph.D.) |