₦airaland Forum

Some of the comments here are bizarre. It's like nothing happens for a reason in football. It's all chance, co-incidence. Do these little things not matter? I am not saying Dortmund got a big one over Madrid because of the break but is it that the break doesn't help in a way?

Ibime: Look Chelsea have all the tools to be as effective as Dortmund were today. All that needs to happen is:

Get rid of Torres
Get rid of Mikel and Ramires for real midfielders
Mata needs to stop being lazy and start working hard like Gotze (This will never happen)

And you need a big squad to sustain that intensity over the season.
With Chelsea playing over 60 games a season with only 18 use-able players, they will burn out.

coogar: their fitness is scary.....
press all day, run all night - can this be attributed to the freshness that accompanies "winter break"?

One cannot underestimate the effects of a break. The pressing is beyond belief and that exactly is what makes the system work.

Breathtaking football. 90 mins of high octane stuff; capped with the wonder a top class striker who knows where the back of the net is.

FBS: tikitaka is NOT the only way to play. Long ball-ing is NOT the only way to play.
Now that I have answered your question, mind if I ask you? how many teams in this world play tikitaka?

He has added to his post. Don't tell me tikitaka is not the only way to play football because I have never said so on this forum. Making the point is poor judgement as always on your side of my position. If I lie, find any post.


Secondly, stop saying this.

A mix of both (and some other ajasas) depending on what's on ground is the way to go. kapish?

It is stoopid. It is your opinion. Don't say IT IS THE WAY TO GO. Barcelona have proven that statement wrong now for 6 continuous years. If that's your way of seeing football, keep it to yourself. Don't tell others "THIS IS THE WAY TO PLAY FOOTBALL"

He now goes on to say that Spain will win the next world cup like he developed clairvoyance overnight

You are a illiterate. You affinity for not reading well is now impeding your ability to make sound judgments. Where did I say Spain WILL win the next world cup?

FBS: .
How can anyone open his mouth and say there is ONLY one way to play football? se football yi na? lol.

Another idiotic statement that stems from lack of ability to read. Where have said tiki-taka is the ONLY way to play football. You have gone from pushing a personal opinion as fact to lying blatantly and evading constantly the focus of the discussion.

I attack your idiotik use of "effective football", you have yet to talk about that. Even El-Guapo wonders what you are on about by attempting to create a difference between Barca's tikitaka and "effective football"

Tom O'Malley: "Klopp's kids' pressing game is so much more enjoyable to watch than the tedious Spanish possession circus."

Who cares about Tom Malley? If Tom knows that much why isn't he managing? I absolutely enjoying watching Dortmund, I love watching Ajax, I enjoy watching Mochengladbach and I absolutely enjoy watching Barcelona. They all play an attractive style of attacking football but you don't see me calling one effective and slating the other. If it wins trophies for them, then it's effective. You are saying it is not. Not because it doesn't win trophies but because it is "tikitaka". This is monumentally stooopid.

Question, how many teams in this world play tikitaka?

Silly question. What has this got to do with what you started?

dayokanu: Lets hear what the torres advocates Nateevs, coogar jackbauer and dyabman have to say

What did he say?

Interesting comments from the Borrusia Dortmund Chief-Executive:-

“I have no contacts at Chelsea. Chelsea have not been around long in terms of European football. For a while there was Group 14 and they were not a member.

“Chelsea had Peter Kenyon back then, I had a good relationship with him, but since he left the club I do not with the others.

“Now we have connections with Manchester United because we made the transfer over Shinji Kagawa [last summer], we also have good relation with Arsenal and Ivan Gazidis. However, Chelsea for us is a dark hole because no one knows who says yes or no.”

“I think Abramovich is not so interested in developing the club for the next 10 years, it is all about the Champions League."

LINK

[quote author=A-40]No mind Nateevs! Little does he know Thomas Muller would be the first name on his team sheet. Guardiola was not always enamored with tiki-taka he had bruisers like Yaya Toure,Keita,Pique,Alves(still there) once upon a time but somewhere along the line I think he got carried away but his last season in Barca must have thought him a big lesson and last night's game has shown him the importance of a Plan B[/quote]Don't mind the ninja with the leaking mouth. I have no idea where I commented about Muller. Never mentioned him on this forum. See my post on our thread and how I commented on how the less than insanely technical Iniestas and Messis still fit into the Barca/Spanish system.

These actors think I don't like a grafter or a player who focuses on pace and strength before flash. It's wrong. What I don't like is a grafter with average/no technique.

For the record, if I had Thomas Muller at Chelsea, he'll be first on my team sheet.

La Masia did not come into existence 4 years ago or even 10 years ago, so why haven't Barca been dominant since Masia was established?

No it didn't. It was gradual. But they got there and that's the point. They started in the early 80s - just about when Xavi was born. Now you wonder why Xavi exists. A little read-up about it will tell you how it fell apart after Cryuff left. However, one of the products of the idea, Guardiola - who will later become Barca B coach - ensured the method revived and thrived.

Read a little about how Messi was allowed to be selfish when he was at the academy and that in time he will learn how to be a total player. In England, they would have knocked the dribbling shitzo out of him and Messi will not even make it because he was small.

debosky: ^^
The reason is simple - you can 'create' your system as much as you want, but only when that coincides with having some of the best technical players on the planet does it deliver the returns Barca have seen.

It doesn't coincide with having the best talent, they made the best talent and they continue to. What does Xavi do? He finds a pass. Simple. He does the basic thing well. I am sorry but I don't believe that close to 50 ultra talented footballers will be created in the same era, in one single geographical zone. The odds are very steep.

Of course having a disciplined system and an excellent academy helps, but that in itself is grossly insufficient. You need more than a system to achieve what Barca has done - you've glossed over the overly lopsided financial arrangements in Spain that give them an edge, their nature as a regional political hub with little local competition, etc. that support their system.

So how does this help Spain win back to back Euros and a world cup in between? How does that help them stay FIFA ranked No 1 for 50 months out of 57 since July 2008? Lopsided financial arrangements?

Ajax have an excellent system and academy as well, but cannot produce the same returns due to financial reasons.

Perhaps they have a dream of a excellent system and cannot find the high level organisation of integration they need for youngsters to become superstars. Chelsea have a fantastic academy boasting some of the finest youngsters in the world. Qualifying for 3 finals of FA Youth Cup in four years, missing out narrowly to Aston Villa in the finals of the Next Gen series, 99% of these players will never play for Chelsea.

SYSTEM!!!

El Guapo: [color=#0066ff]Not like Bayern wouldn't indulge in a Tiki-taka aswell.

Its rather pathetic that a football pundit would think of tiki-taka as ineffective when you'd have teams win with it on bigger occasions.

Barcelona are not the best team in the world today cos they play Tiki-taka but b'cos they could garner victories in Streaks, win laurels with ease and are quite formidable, they've got an effective system that works yet they're playing tiki-taka.

What kinda Logic does some peeps on here traverse On? [/color]

Mate. God bless you.
The line in bold says everything.
Peops trying to creating a myth that going on an unbelievable winning streak is effective football but tikitaka is something else. This is why I say it is more of an extreme dis-taste of the style rather than a rational understanding of if and how it works.

Lol.well I couldn't figure out what your problem was until Ibime helped out.

You are making my point for me.

Yeah! Thanks to Ibime for that as you can't figure out anything on your own.

FBS: Anyways Mr nateevs stop getting emotional and Show me where I categorically said tiki taka is the way to go even when results went barcas way? If you can't then shut up.I have always spoken against it so I don't know where all your figifedege is coming from.

What is the basis of this question? Did you even read my post? You are leaving your suggestions I have tackled unattended and clinging on to rubbish. What is the difference between tikitaka and effective football and why "SHOULD" a team that has won 16 trophies is 6 years need a plan b and plan c?

We can't quite work out what your position is. Having plan b and plan c as you put it, "it is better". . . Explain how! How can you top 16 trophies in 6 years with your idea of plan b and plan c? Who has done it?

debosky: Nateevs

Barcelona of the past 4 years and Spain of the past 4 years are exceptional exceptions, likely not to be repeated for a very long time. 99.99% of football teams will never be able to gather the same level of technical expertise within a side, coupled with the emergence of a sublime, peerless talent like Messi to achieve what Barca has achieved.

Of course, when your plan A is merged with such talent and organisation, you don't need a plan B, but since 99.99% of clubs will never have such a combination, every team (with the exception of Barcelona, for now) does require a plan B or even C if they are to be successful.

You cannot base a general rule on an exception like Barcelona, just like you can't be condemning strikers for not delivering goals like Messi.

Actually may be you got it the other way round and I won't mind being wrong on this.

As far as I know, this is why La Masia exists. They developed a system they intend to employ and they teach kids right from when their feet can hold a pair of boots, technical intricacies of the game. While other countries/clubs hope footballers would show up out of thin air, they designed a system and made players fit the system.

This is why I believe it is more than a co-incidence. What they've done works so perfectly, it's so good to be true. That's whyI don't find it surprising that the argument of "once in a life-time thing" sits very well with the listening ear of the rebellion.

What they teach is, as someone put it, is "a comprehensive understanding of the geometry of space". It's a deliberate attempt at reaching a goal. This is why the likes of Pedro, Abidal, Keita, Navas, Tello et al (players who aren't anywhere on the level of technical ability of Iniesta, Xavi, Messi) fit into the system and carry it out effectively. It's more than a co-incidence.

People say it helps to have Messi but have nothing to say when we mention Spain. Talking about Spain, how come the likes of Mata, Silva, Alonso, Azpilicueta, Arbeloa, Jordi Alba before Barca, Carzola before Arsenal, et al who play nothing close to tikitaka at their respective clubs go back to the Spanish National team and execute the style perfectly and win championships? Someone like Alonso played quick transition football and long balls at Liverpool and now at Real. Because it is a system which, believe it or not, is heavily reliant on technical understanding than an era of gifted players.

No one even bothers to explain what happens when they don't have the ball. They fall back to a system that ensures they get it back - the 6-second rule - which has about zilch to do with technical abilities but the collective effort of a bunch of players who understand and more importantly, believe in the system.


And to further buttress on the point of how they teach their kids, the like of Isco, Sergio Roberto, Thiago Alcantara, Iker Munian, et al suggests that this is not drying up anytime soon and a perfect indication of the deliberate attempt at creating a system.

This is why I can call it a norm and not an exception. Because all indications prove that it can be done.

Ibime: Like I say, RA is a novice and a strikerphile. He thinks football starts and ends with strikers. Lukaku currently has the best goals to minutes ratio in EPL. Nobody pointed this out to him.

Perhaps because times without number in history, someone has pointed out something rational to him and he overrides again and again and again.

Danger ko, ninja ni. I'm not an emotional guy like you ( thanks to Ibime for pointing this out)

Yeah! Thanks to Ibime for that as you can't figure out anything on your own.

FBS: nd ccertainly NOT a proponent of long balls.I've never said that anywhere and why you made that up we will never know.
Barca when faced with tough oppositions with no ref protection are always missing from action. E.g last night or Chelsea last season.

Of course you are not emotional but you refer to tikitaka as "silly tikitaka" even though it produced more results than the brand of football you are preaching and the other plans you are craving for. Yet you are the same guy arguing for "EFFECTIVE FOOTBALL" all at the same time. It's hard to decipher what side you are on.

You are like those fellas who wait for results like that of last night and that of Chelsea to prove a point. When Barca was rolling over a 2-0 deficit and strolling 4-2 on agg beyond Milan into the semis, you were not talking about plan b.

Having plans a,b and c that works is better than your silly tiki taka. Even Kloop agrees with that.

It works better abi?. . . Then show me who has won more trophies than Spain and Barcelona in the last 6 years. You just like defending plan b and plan c. I fail to see the end point. "PLAN A only" is working for the best team in the world and they are winning trophies. Spain are almost likely to win the next world cup and you need a plan b. . for what? To print on your shirt?

FBS: Every team should have plan a, b and c. Now that's effective. Ask Dortmund.

But this is your opinion. You are presenting it as fact. Every team "SHOULD"
No! Every team "SHOULD" not

Barcelona don't and they don't want to. It's their opinion.
They won what? 14 trophies in four years by believing that they "SHOULD" not have a plan b and plan c.

Show me one of those teams who have plan b, plan c, plan z who have won more trophies than Barcelona in four consecutive years. There isn't. Now that EFFECTIVE! How can you argue against that?

You are in danger of preaching either your emotional attachment to long balls or your extreme dis-taste for tikitaka beyond the boundaries of personal opinion.

The guy taking over at Bayern doesn't believe in plan b. The guys who are hiring him know this.
The hierarchy of Barcelona don't believe in plan b. These are seasoned professional managers of the game. A lot of them. Unless you are saying they are all fools and they don't know what they are doing.

But hey over 14 trophies in four years says you are wrong.

-------------------------

After Spain choose not to have a plan b. Back to back Euros and a world cup sandwiched in between. Ranked no 1 team in the world for 50 months out of 57 since July 2008. Ever since turning their backs on plan b and plan z.

So why "SHOULD" every team have a plan b?

FBS: Besides, I wonder what happened to tiki-taka?
Dortmund got past Malaga playing the long ball (Stoke style)
barca went missing today and were destroyed by a stronger opposition. No protection from the ref. hahaha. just loving it.

EFFECTIVE FOOTBALL is the WAY TO GO!

What possible technical difference could there be between tikitaka and effective football?
If tikitaka wins games and competitions, isn't it effective?

Ibime: Some guys will tell you Muller is not refined enough for Chelsea. Remember say na only tiki taka some guys sabi.

FBS: lol. did you just say nateevs?
Been watching Muller for several seasons now and I know he will start nearly EVERY game for Chelsea or ANY club for that matter. The guy is a BEAST and very much result oriented. tikitaka my foot.

Jokers!
And what do you think Bayern will be playing next season with Guardiola and "Muller"
Maybe we should start by asking what attracted Bayern to Guardiola in the first place? Effective football has been working for them so far hasn't it?

Effective football my foot.


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A-40/Dayo. . . Congrats guys. Grand result.

I just found out that Philip Lahm has created 20 scoring chances in the UCL this season - 3 more than Messi. Interesting piece of stat.

Ibime: Fabregas numbers are good anywhere.

One of ma Spurs friend could never understand the hoopla about Modric. According to him "They claim Modric makes pre-assists. What the phuck is a pre-assist? That's like somebody who works on a poorn set, who jerks off poorno stars to get them hard before they go and perform."

Regarding Chelsea situation, Schurrle is more of an asset than KDB. That's all that matters, not who is the better player. It is some peeps fascination with certain kind of players that landed Chelsea in the situation we find ourselves now. In terms of squad building, the first thing a technical director should be asking is "what are we missing in order to have a balanced team" not who is the better player.

At this moment, KDB is little use to Chelsea because he hasn't learned to defend properly in the central position. That is the weakest part of his game which he needs to rectify. I wouldn't mind playing him on the wing because he has a mean cross on him, but he looks like he doesn't wanna play there anymore.

Both are of use to Chelsea at this moment in time. One can play across the forward line and the other as a CM and AM and a Winger if needed. If he (KDB) cannot defend we teach him how. Hazard didn't defend before joining Chelsea. Now he runs back a lot. There's no point going out to buy players when we already have these on our books.

Unless we are making an outright sale of KDB, we need all the numbers we can get. We are releasing Ferreira, Essien, Benayoun, Malouda, perhaps Lampard and Marin (off-loading). 7 players off and we have 5 positions to fill for the league. Unfortunately we might find ourselves in a similar situation of small squad size next season after releasing Lampard and Sturridge. Unless we buy English players.

There are very many factors that constantly get ignored. I stumbled upon this list online that collates the most played players in Europe this season. 3 Chelsea players in top 3. 4 in the top five. 6 in the top 10 and 9 Chelsea players in the top 50.

Surprisingly, not a single City player. Neither is there a United player. Such stats have no significance for many of us. For others, a clear indication of over-reliance on key players, poor squad use and/or small squad size. Standards may be slipping but even events like this cannot and should not be ignored. Minutes as at March 2013.

[quote author=A-40]That's a very simplistic assumption like Ibime rightly pointed out Luka Modric at Madrid serves a very good example Cesc Fabregas too! besides are you claiming he would have more chances to improve his numbers when he would most likely have less time on the ball?

Schurrle has 6 assists De Bruyne has 9 the difference is not as wide as you think plus Schurrle is more clinical and composed in front of goal to boot![/quote]I perfectly agree that it isn't as simplistic as his numbers increasing solely because he's surrounded by better players. There is a ton of considerations that go way beyond this discussion and that's why I said his numbers "are likely to" increase. And rightly so. Cos even though you've brought up a Fabregas and Modric situation, I can find a Mata and David Silva - players whose stats have significantly increased after joining bigger teams with better players.

We both have valid points.


I highlighted Schurrle's strong points in my first post. He is a better goal scorer and wing forward than KDB is but Kevin's all round game at this moment is better than Schurrle.

[quote author=A-40]Could it be that because he is at an inferior team he would ordinarily have more opportunities to control the tempo of the game? Cause I doubt his stats would have been so gaudy if he was at a stronger team e.g Leverkussen or Dortmund
The creative burden at Leverkussen isn't on Schurrle so you don't expect him to possess similar stats with De Bruyne[/quote]My opinion is that a player's ability will come through irrespective of the responsibility of creativity. In fact, his stats are likely to increase because better quality players will get on the end of his passes and crosses more often irrespective of whose responsibility it is to create. If he plays, it will happen because he is that creative.

It's perhaps not Schurrle's responsibility to create because he can't. If he could, he will.

[quote author=A-40]I think you ninjas are carried away by flash and razzle-dazzle that De Bruyne possesses problem is you guys already have MAZACAR! De Bruyne aint that spectacular in my eyes not saying he can't be better but I'd definitely not have him over Schurrle
Schurrle can play as a striker,winger and attacking midfielder and he is quietly having a good season! 11 goals in the league and a big reason why Leverkussen is hot on the heels of Dortmund for 2nd place in the Bundesliga. He has fallen behind the likes of Gotze and Reus but I think he brings something different to Chelsea.[/quote]I am not making an either or situation between both players. And no this isn't about flash, razzle and frazzle but about how each influences play.


Kevin's 9 assists to Andre's 6
Kevin averages 2.6 key passes per game as opposed to Andre's 1.2
Kevin averages 47.9 passes per game as opposed to Andre's 27.4
Kevin averages 2.2 crosses per game as opposed to Andre's 1.5
Kevin averages 5.7 accurate long balls per game to Andre's 1
Kevin averages 0.2 accurate through balls per game to Andre's 0.2

Add to that Kevin being a much better player at set-piece taking. Kevin will more likely influence a game than Andre will. This is all despite Kevin playing from a deeper position and playing in a vastly inferior team to Andre's.


I am not making a case of who of both players Chelsea needs right now but disagreeing with the point that at this moment in time, Andre is a better player than Kevin is. It is not true.

Not only does the ref find 6 mins of overtime from somewhere, he goes over by another minute.
How Suarez is left on the pitch after biting someone is beyond me.

Rubbish!

Sh1tt

Why are we this open when we are 2-1 ahead?

We should now stay compact and try to hit them on the counter.

Penalty! What a long wait for the penalty. Another Suarez antic.

WE should have started tighter at the back. We needed a second goal but it didn't have to be immediately.
The balance has swung and it could be dangerous.

Ibime: Chelsea have too many people competing for no10 position which means at this point we need Schurrle more than KDB unless KDB is willing to return to the wing.

Not interested in either of them though. I wanna hear about CMs and DMs first and foremost.

Even if KDB did arrive, he definitely won't be in contention for AM position.

OMO IBO: I don't like this game.
Very cagey

More like just very tactical for me. It's been anything but cagey.
Torres has not gotten unto some nicely set up one-twos.
We could have easily scored a couple more.

Hazard, Oscar, Ramires and Mikel are breaking up play seriously in midfield.
Luiz has been vary aware of the evasive runs of Suarez so far.

I hope we can get a second.