@ Kelorah

She was the earthly mother of Jesus. She's significant because, of all the women on earth, she was chosen. Don't you think she deserves the honour she gets?

No one is saying that Mary shouldn't be honoured for having become the chosen vessel for God's Holy Begotten, but there is a vast difference between what you interpret honour to be, as against, what it aught to be in the light of things. There is a limit to which honour should be bestowed on Mary. It should be confined to what she has accomplished as far as her earthly contribution is concerned. How dare anyone to carry on further when she is dead. You cannot hail a dead person, unless of course you can establish proof that she is alive and well in heavenly places. And when I say proof I don't mean for anyone to tell me about seeing any appatition of Mary, and what she has supposedly said. I mean proof as coming from scriptures that she would have merited the role catholics have placed on her being an intercessor in heaven next to Christ Himself. This is the real crux of the matter. Catholics are well aware that they don't have any proof of Mary being alive other than what their leaders have put up as teachings.

Bowing doesn't mean we're worshipping the images, etc.

Is this why catholic leaders have removed the 2nd commandment among the 10 that stipulates against the making of and bowing down to images, or anything that may be used even for representational purposes? God has forbade it and now you're encouraging it. God says don't and you're saying do, what a joke!

So, in the Yoruba tradition, yorubas shouldn't bow/prostrate because that would mean they're worshipping their elders?! Those images and rosaries are symbols representing God. The pictures are supposedly of Jesus because we don't know what he looks like. I know God won't send me to hell for my beliefs. And we pray to God through Jesus but we also pray through her and if that's a sin, then why don't you let God be the judge?

Since you and I can't possibly expect God to answer that issue why not let His word be the judge. His Holy Writ is just as good as He Himself, because they came from Him. Once again take a look at the 2nd commandment, and you will leave not having a single doubt about what God means. Let us view it:

Ex. 20:4, “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.[color=#990000][/color]

In other words God desires that we approach Him directly in worship. He doesn't need any representation of anything in the heavens, or on earth below. No pictures, no carved images, etc.

Anybody has the right to belong to any church.

Hi @chikejude,

Nobody is 'attacking' Mary or the Catholic Church. I still don't understand how a discussion that focuses on Biblical integrity should be interpreted as "attack". All we've been asking is that Catholics should share God's truth with non-Catholics and allow room for discussion on fundamental issues affecting Christians as a whole.

Take, for example, this statement in yours:

chikejude:

Even the Angel Gabriel Saluted her with greeting calling her full of Grace.

. . . you can see that is not true.

Angel Gabriel indeed "saluted" her (not "worship" or "pray to" her); and in no instance from any translation of the Bible did the angel call her "full of grace". Not in any translation of the Bible - including the one Catholics say they "wrote" or 'canonized'.

There is ONLY ONE Person in the entire Bible who is "FULL of GRACE" - And that is the Lord Jesus Christ! Compare the facts for yourself:

[list](1) Angel Gabriel's greeting to Mary (Luke 1:28):

"And the angel came in unto her,
and said,

Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee:
blessed art thou among women."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

(2) Biblical truth about Jesus Christ (John 1:14):

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory,
the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."[/list]


This is what I would my Catholic friends to understand: NEVER ascribe titles of Jesus Christ to Mary when you very well know you cannot defend it in God's WORD. To do so is to violate the very warning God Himself gave in Isaiah's prophecy:

"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images."

- - Isaiah 42:8.

It pays to listen to God O! You can't argue with Him lai-lai!

@chikejude

No bother yourself de argue with that winch pilgrim o! Na so she go de use catholics de catch trips till you sef tire for am. Just make am de do hin " I TOO KNOW" I.T.K. de go and discuss with better people. Leave am o! Na first class kolo. Every thing you de talk about catholics na hin she go de make you resemble fool. She no de go any other forum but go just de siddon for religious threads to de wait for catholics until you yan d thing wey go make am mess you well well.

Abeg free the kolo and discuss with other people. Nothing you go yan go be true for hin eye.

. . . you can see that is not true.

No let am put sand sand for your garri o! If she no gree, yab am well well so she go free you.

Much luv ma brother!

Emm. . . .are you lawyer's assistant at his annex chambers in Yaba left?

Emm. . . .are you lawyer's assistant at his annex chambers in Yaba left?

why all of una like to de find trouble wey person no de follow una de talk? Which one b this kin yan about lawyer assistant for yaba left. Bros i no get gbe ge with you, but i de warn you, just free me. I no de follow you yan, you de yan say i be kolo. Ok i don yan my own. No go find the thing way no lost o! ok!

Na wa oh, when dem stand finish wetin go happen. I just wan know who come bi kolo, judge abi na lawyer or liar?

pilgrim.1:

Hi @chikejude,

, Take, for example, this statement in yours:

. . . you can see that is not true.

Angel Gabriel indeed "saluted" her (not "worship" or "pray to" her); and in no instance from any translation of the Bible did the angel call her "full of grace". Not in any translation of the Bible - including the one Catholics say they "wrote" or 'canonized'.

There is ONLY ONE Person in the entire Bible who is "FULL of GRACE" - And that is the Lord Jesus Christ! Compare the facts for yourself:

[list](1) Angel Gabriel's greeting to Mary (Luke 1:28):

"And the angel came in unto her,
and said,

Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee:

Bobbyaf, life short o! favour and grace wetin be the difference? Nairalanders abeg, help with dico for dere. Me I no get plenti talk - as u c say my englisjh sef get comma,

orobo 50cl:

No bother yourself de argue with that winch pilgrim o! Na so she go de use catholics de catch trips till you sef tire for am. Just make am de do hin " I TOO KNOW" I.T.K. de go and discuss with better people. Leave am o! Na first class kolo. Every thing you de talk about catholics na hin she go de make you resemble fool. She no de go any other forum but go just de siddon for religious threads to de wait for catholics until you yan d thing wey go make am mess you well well.

obviously this post betrays 'issues'
no wonder you can only resort to argumentum ad hominem rather than offer logical arguments
(especially when the so-called logical arguments are (or have been) thrashed.

@ ricadelide

obviously this post betrays 'issues'
no wonder you can only resort to argumentum ad hominem rather than offer logical arguments
(especially when the so-called logical arguments are (or have been) thrashed.

Couldn't agree with you more.

Jesus said of them "eyes they have but cannot see, and ears they have and cannot hear" Such a pity!

@Orobo 50cl,

Please, don’t call Pilgrim witch. It has not come to that level. That word is not proper, and I abhor it totally. If there is any way she has offended you through her responses, then try to let her know than resorting to insult. I believe she will apologize. She is not rude.

I’m not trying to flatter her, because I stand to gain nothing. It’s true that she may not agree with us (Catholics) on so many issues, but she has not insulted anyone. So, it’s wrong to call her witch because of her position on this discussion.

ebos, if you see Orobo's yearn previously ehn you would take cover and be ashamed of him. He almost jouined me in the rofo-rofo fight too now. He believe's we are all out to embarrass Catholics as against intellectual engagement.

Please i think you need to tell him to a[ologise to Pilgrim.1.

Back to the issues. Did you se pilgrim's and my response to your anaysis of[b] Rev. 12?[/b]. We ar waiting for your commnts.

It's too bad for Orobo? But what has Lawyer's name got to do with Orobo 50cl? The Orobo guy is bringing insult to this discussion and you are comparing him with Lawyer. Did Lawyer insult anybody in this thread? Why trying to cause confusion? Lawyer never behaved like Orobo. I believe this Orobo should try and stop this act. It's wrong to call Pilgrim witch.

@Cgift,

I will come to your explanations and that of Pilgrim later in the day. I'm trying to free myself first, then I will pay much attention.

Sorr, not you (Cgift) comparing Orobo 50cl with Lawyer, but others are doing so.

No qualms. I am just afraid when Orobo 50cl comes online now, heaven will fall

cgift:

No qualms. I am just afraid when Orobo 50cl comes online now, heaven will fall

@cgift,

Lol. . wetin wan make heaven fall? Fall upon who?

ebos:

It's too bad for Orobo? But what has Lawyer's name got to do with Orobo 50cl? The Orobo guy is bringing insult to this discussion and you are comparing him with Lawyer. Did Lawyer insult anybody in this thread? Why trying to cause confusion? Lawyer never behaved like Orobo. I believe this Orobo should try and stop this act. It's wrong to call Pilgrim witch.

@ebos,

How bodi? I understand your concerns, but don't worry. . na small-small the real issues go surface.

Now, about "lawyer", I will reserve my comments for the moment - but as I said to him: 'mark my words'. It's not a difficult thing to apologise if someone has an honest claim to have been deliberately offended by my post; and if you worry about whether or not "lawyer" has insulted anyone (even in his repostes to my entries), just go back and read them in the other thread. No too much talk for the moment.

Meanwhile, it's just laughable for anyone to think that insults affect me in anyway. I've been called so many unpalatable names, but what have such people who used them achieved for themselves? The one thing they eventually do is bring out the very best in me - and even create the avenue for me to post even more dazzling exposés about Catholicism. I've held my cool on your behalf - and I sometimes wish you would just not intercede for Catholics and let me serve the apsirin to settle their worries.

All the same, we go still continue to yan. As I often say, na my own I dey jeje - and some people no go let pilgrim.1 rest.

@ktmadu,

ktmadu:

Bobbyaf, life short o! favour and grace wetin be the difference? Nairalanders abeg, help with dico for dere. Me I no get plenti talk - as u c say my englisjh sef get comma,

Thank you for your reply; but first, you don confuse pilgrim.1 for Bobbyaf - we're not the same person! But no worries - we all make mistakes like that.

Nonetheless, there are a few things I'd like to address in your enquiry - "favour and grace wetin be the difference?" The real issue is not about the difference between both words; but rather as to whether angel Gabriel's greeting to Mary is precisely what Catholics claim thereto.


1 The angel Gabriel did not call Mary "FULL of Grace".

The point here is whether or not the angel Gabriel called Mary precisely by that term ("full of grace" - and we know he did NOT do so. Catholicism has taken what belongs alone to Jesus Christ and ascribed them to Mary - which is why we are asking Catholics where they got the "Hail Mary" prayer from.

The words 'grace' and 'favour' which appear in our English Bibles are translated from the same singular Greek word: χáρις (charis). You can compare this carefully in verses 40 and 52 in Luke 2:

* ⁴⁰'. . . and the grace [χáρις] of God was upon him'

* ⁵²'. . . and in favour [χáρις] with God and man.'

The question here is not even about whether angel Gabriel mentioned "χáρις" in his greeting to Mary; rather, it borders on whether he called her "FULL of Grace". Did angel Gabriel 'call' Mary by that term at all?

2 The same terms in angel Gabriel's greeting was used by apostle Paul to Christians in general.

I'd asked a good friend ebos to "go find out where (Paul) used the same terms as appeared in angel Gabriel's greeting to Mary"; but seeing he didn't say anything thereto, I'll gladly help you see the point.

From the KJV (King James Version) Bible, angel Gabriel's greeting to Mary is given as: "Hail, thou that art highly favoured" (Luke 1:28). We understand that the words in grey italics are supplied in English to make the text read fluently - but they're not in the Greek original; so that in simple 'undressed' English it would read: "Hail, highly favoured".

However, the phrase "highly favoured" is the translation of the Greek term "χαριτóω" (charitoō) - which is precisely the same term that the apostle Paul uses in Ephesians 1:6 and rendered as "accepted" -- "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted [χαριτóω] in the beloved."

In other words, we understand that both "highly favoured" in Luke 1:28 and "accepted" in Ephesians 1:6 are the same Greek word - "χαριτóω" (charitoō). Which demonstrates that it is not only Mary that is "highly favoured", but ALL Christians are indeed 'highly favoured' as well. The only way to go round this fact of Ephesians 1:16 is to deny that the text says so - just so that the tradition of regarding Mary as "full of grace" can be retained without substance.

3 But I made a mistake in the case of "FULL of grace" as said ONLY of Jesus

That's true - I was wrong to have asserted that "full of grace" was written as concerning only Jesus Christ. A former Catholic friend has kindly reminded me that the phrase was also spoken in reference to Stephen in Acts 6:8. In our KJV Bible, that verse reads as - "And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people." Actually, the word "faith" in that verse is "χáρις" ((charis) - grace); and not πíστις (pistis - 'faith').

There are other English translations that give a more accurate rendering of that verse with the word 'grace' (χáρις) instead of the KJV's supposed 'faith' (πíστις). A few of these include the ASV (American Standard Version); Darby; ESV (English Standard Version) and the HCSB (Holman Christian Standard Bible). Sample: "Stephen, FULL OF GRACE and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people."

I'm grateful to learn where I overlooked the facts - but the point still remains that the angel Gabriel did not 'call' or address Mary by that term "FULL of grace" - although we could infer that she had a gracious demeanour.


4 Keep the words in their proper contexts so we don't confuse them.

Of course it is important that we keep these things in their proper contexts; for we do not want to just go by the word "favour" or "accepted" and arrive at wrong inferences. For example, did anyone ever tell you that "favour" is deceitful? No be me talk am - na Bible: "Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised." (Proverbs 31:30).

Again, it is not just anywhere we find the word "accepted" in the English Bibles that we should mistake it as a translation for ""χαριτóω" (charitoō)" - for there are other words that English translators render with the word 'accepted'. An example is Luke 4:24, ". . .  No prophet is accepted in his own country", where the word "accepted" is another Greek term: δεκτóς (dektos).

That said, let's keep in mind that the angel Gabriel did not greet or call Mary by the phrase "FULL of Grace", which the Catholic Church has adopted in what is known as the "Hail Mary" prayer -  a prayer which Catholic faithfuls PRAY TO Mary.

A former Catholic friend of mine before she became Protestant had asked me this question: "But what about the fact that at least one English Version - - actually has 'Full of Grace' in Luke 1:28 as part of the angel Gabriel's greeting?"

5 A Look at some Catholic English 'translations' of Luke 1:28

In my discourse with my afore-mentioned (though un-named) ex-Catholic friend, I could understand and better appreciate why Catholics insist that the angel Gabriel actually 'called' Mary by that phrase: "FULL of grace" in Luke 1:28. The reason is simple - they base their arguments on such Catholic translations of the Bible deriving from the Latin Vulgate. However, the Latin Vulgate was a translation by Jerome who was commissioned by Pope Damasus I in 382. However, it is clear that Jerome was not only 'translating' the Bible into Latin; but he was also revising the texts. From the texts he employed in his translation and revisions, there was no basis for his "gratia plena" (full of grace) - and it is interesting to note that all major Catholic translations favoured by the Vatican with the stamp of "imprimatur" do not render the same verse (Luke 1:28) as Jerome gave in his Latin Vulgate.

From this unfortunate presupposition of Jerome's Latin Vulgate, the RSV-CE (Revised Standard Version - Catholic Edition, 1965) has Luke 1:28 as saying: "And he came to her and said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!" Even though the RSV-CE went out of print briefly and resurfaced in 1994, the Catholic Church favoured the Douay-Rheims (based on Jerome's Latin Vulgate) which has pretty much the same rendering with "full of grace". However, you would be surprised to know that the NJB (New Jerusalem Bible, 1985 approved by the RCC) which is regarded as the "imprimatur" of Catholic English translations, does NOT have the phrase "full of grace" in that verse!

Let's take a look at some of these Catholic Translations:


[list][li]Luke 1:28 in Various Catholic English Bibles:[/li][/list]

[list][li]NJB - New Jerusalem Bible:[/li][/list]

²⁸He went in and said to her,
'Rejoice, you who enjoy God's favour!
The Lord is with you.'


[list][li]NAB - New American Bible (2nd Ed., 1986)[/li][/list]

²⁸And coming to her, he said,
"Hail, favored one!
The Lord is with you."


[list][li]NRSV-CE (New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition)[/li][/list]

²⁸And he came to her and said,
‘Greetings, favoured one!
The Lord is with you.'


The bottomline is that the angel Gabriel did not call Mary 'FULL of Grace' - but the Catholic argument of English translations saying he did, is simply based on the unfortunate interpolation of Jerome's revision of the text as found in his Latin Vulgate.

6 Why can't Christians "pray to" Mary with the appellation of "FULL f Grace"?

A. The Bible does not ascribe that appellation to Mary, for it was rather said about Jesus Christ >>
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory,
the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) FULL OF GRACE and truth."
- - (John 1:14)

B. The grace of Jesus Christ is given to EVERY believer rather than to only Mary >>
"And of His fulness have ALL WE received, and grace for grace."
- - (John 1:15)

C. There is only ONE Person who is the SOURCE of grace: Jesus Christ >>
"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came BY Jesus Christ."
- - (John 1: 17)

D. And it is only ONE Person - Jesus Christ - through whom people find grace for salvation >>

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely BY HIS GRACE
through the redemption that is in JESUS CHRIST"
- - (Rom. 3:23:24)

"But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved,
even as they." - - (Acts 15:11)

E. That is why Christians look UNTO Jesus Christ alone as the source of their salvation >>

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;
who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,
despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of
the throne of God." - - (Heb. 12:2)


Compare the above to what Pope John Paul II  said:

"Christians look to Mary, the first to be redeemed by Christ and
who had the privilege of not being subjected, even for an instant, to
the power of evil and sin, as the perfect model and icon of that holiness
which they are called to attain in their life with the help of the Lord's grace."
- - (http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm22.htm)

"4. Therefore Christians look with trust to Mary Queen
and  this not only does not diminish but indeed exalts their filial
abandonment to her, who is mother in the order of grace."

- - (http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm56.htm)


The above is not a mere coincidental verbosity from the late Pope; but even at his funeral, we can understand the real blood of Catholic doctrine from the words of the Dean of the College of Cardinals who performed the final commendation and farewell. Read what he called Mary and confirm for yourself:

"The Blessed Virgin Mary, Queen of the Apostles and savior of the people of Rome, intercede to
God for us so that the face of his blessed Son may be shown to our Pope and comfort the Church
with the light of the resurrection."

Source: http://www.ewtn.com/JohnPaul2/_mourning/ritessummary1.asp


Could you please explain what Catholics mean by calling Mary "Queen of the Apostles and savior of the people of Rome"?



Now, I do hope that Catholics would have the grace of heart to examine these matters carefully and come to see how the play of words to disavow the real issues in Catholicism do not carry any weight at all. Grace for our salvation and spiritual destiny comes alone and directly from Christ - and not through any co-mediatrix or co-redemptrix, not even Mary. The one thing I often request is that those who offer counter arguments first carefully examine issues from the WORD before trying to affirm anything about Catholicism.

Cheers.  

We are honouring Mary, we are hounouring.

We are honouring Mary EVER HONOURING.

People say we HONOUR her, YES WE DO.

Everybody join the chorus honour her, honour MARY

LOL . . . . . talk about stiff-neckedness _{Acts 7:51}
Scary!

@soldee,

I hear you. I'm appealing to Catholics to please explain the meaning of "honouring" Mary. Can you please do so as simply as you can? Thank you plenty.

Meanwhile, when you do, I shall take my time to gently post the FACT that the Catholic bishops have clearly stated that they WORSHIP Mary! Do you care to find out the fact for yourself?

For now, make we dey take am bit by bit. From the "FULL of Grace" ascribed to Mary, we'll move on the "praying to" Mary; then we shall have occasion to examine what the Catholic bishops mean by calling Mary the "Saviour of Rome". . . and then I go simply post the statements of the Popes and Bishops for you to examine for yourself.

You say it is simply "honouring" and not "worshipping", abi?  Na small-small we go arrive at the heart of the matter.

Cheers. 

ricadelide:

LOL . . . . . talk about stiff-neckedness _{Acts 7:51}
Scary!

Lol. . . how body?

I was coming to that verse precisely - but you anticipated me. Anyhow. . . enjoy!

Well done Guys For Living Up to Your Faith. you Catholics are really Lucky O! You Have such wonderful practices e.g Psalter of Jesus and Mary (what you call the rosary), Direct reconcilation with God (what you call sacrament of penance or confession), and so much more that can not all be said. Keep Living to Your Faith. Glory To JESUS Honour to MARY.

Yep Glory to Jesus honour to mary.

I am a Christian but a Catholic by profession.

Any one who has a problem with that should talk to the Most High,

Mistake in the last post.

It suppose to be:
I am a christian but a catholic by way of worship.

CORRECTION

Lol. . . wetin be all this panic measures wey una dey apply?

We dey "honour" Mary - wetin be the meaning of that? Simple straightforward explanation is all that is required, not all this backslapping and scooting off to placate yourselves.

If you can simply deny that Catholics have it on record that you WORSHIP Mary, please do so and let me serve you the cerelac! It's not a hard thing at all.

Meanwhile, do oblige an explanation to this:

Could you please explain what Catholics mean by calling Mary "Queen of the Apostles and savior of the people of Rome"?

Thank you again O! Thank you.

@ pilgrim.1 - U can see that we have not seen very coherent arguments against your points. I pray for sights for those who cannot see and the ability to leave the attitude of we must follow our father's faith. Have you heard about Jack Chicks publications - www.chicks.com . I think Catholics should read the cartoons with open minds, and they should also read the bible - I understand they don't read much of it.
I hope I can get the printed magazines