₦airaland Forum

stillwater:
True. Our democracy is just a baby compared to the US that is over 200yrs. Let just say we are still in the era of playing cowboys and red Indians. We would surely get there.

Erroneous reasoning.

The U.S.A. and Nigeria (nay, Africa) are very different. 200 years ago the U.S. was a functioning state for the times.

bawomolo:
what do you mean by our political and cultural awareness today?

Three major tribes. Two major religions. Alliance by tribe and religion.

Perceived imbalance of leadership (among other things) by tribe/region. Thus, one very enormous clash.

Chaos.

Minor tribes suffer.

Chaos=disorder=opportunism=corruption=coup=counter-coup=chaos=disorder=opportunism=corruption=decay=sh*t. From top to bottom. From the government to its agents to the people. Pretty much Nigerian history, if you want it bluntly succinct.

Cultural/personal/political mistrust rooted in riots, war, envy. Survival, play-hard, under-the-table tendencies. Igbos hate Hausa. Yorubas hate igbos. Northern leadership subdues southern leadership (perceived or real?).  Favoritism. Further detachment from real issues and needs.

Everyone suffers.


Now, as to your question about our political and cultural awareness today, I'd still say it's about the same as the first minute in post-colonial times. Tribal.

Here is what I think: Nigerians (and majority of Africans) are still very much rooted to their ethnic groups and will better communicate and co-ordinate along those lines. In a south-south village physically and culturally miles away from Nigeria's center in Abuja, what will better guide the people to self-sufficiency, higher standards of living, peace, confidence, education, and security in the knowledge that their interests are very much protected and not abused? A south-south puppet state government trudging under the command of a centralized, psuedo-westernized, God knows what? A government much too distracted by political bruhaha and the pay-to-play protocol we're so familiar with?  

Or a south-south government that is politically, economically and culturally autonomous from a weakened center? A south-south government that isn't even that centralized itself? Apply the same question to the south-east, the North, the west. I'm not asking for Nigeria to split, mind you.

Solution? Democracy, of course. But as decentralized as we can get without ushering disorder - and with as many checks and balances as sanity will allow. But I think you knew that. The smaller the units, the better the chance that everything and everyone is accounted for- our money, our welfare, the system, hungry-mouths to feed, policing, citizen-to-government relations,etc.

Some matters will still be of inter-ethnic, national interests. Our binding glue might be contained, for instance, in the issues of national security, national trade, foreign relations, etc.

The above is only a suggestion from a lay-person's point of view. I might be bullcrapping myself, but it is what I think. Any better suggestions?

I don't know if the NY post is racist.

But one would be stupid to think they didn't know the implication of what they were doing in the first place.

kabna:
Africa needs Jesus not Democracy

remeber many of these established democracies are christian nations by origin u know.

democracy does not work it is faith that works but the question is which faith?

all the successful rich democracies are guess what chrictian nations.

Africa DOES need democracy.

The one we have, however, is not peculiar to our political and cultural awareness today. So far, no one has addressed my points and questions.

I'm still waiting.

[quote author=~Sauron~ link=topic=236077.msg3489669#msg3489669 date=1235069702]Africans understand how democracy should work and reh reh reh. It's not rocket science.
However, when it comes to the nitty gritty schitzos, we fall short because of the way we are.
It's only in Africa a man wants to be an eternal leader for life and have people serve him until the day he dies.

The master-slave relationship is genetically indoctrinated in Africans and i am not talking about political leaders alone. . . .even ordinary men in the community believe the world should start and end in their domain. Are those ones too controlled buy the western world??
Letz face it. . . . .Democracy is not CUT for us.[/quote]I disagree.

However, I'd like to know your opinion on how whatever that is "cut out" for us, should be made to fit so that ordinary citizens not be neglected.

Or maybe the underlying tone here is that Africans are inherently not capable of good governance. Please educate me.

Wikipedia article on democracy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

As you can tell by just reading Wikipedia, there are different types of democracies, made to suit people depending on cultural beliefs, norms and general attitudes.

PLEASE read it. Because there is still a whole lot of misunderstanding in this thread concerning my initial post. The government should be for the people, I agree.

So then, why can't African governments truly be for African people? Please revisit all of my posts to get the sense of my gist.  I'm not a die-hard political theorist, but I'd like to hear from acclaimed experts who can shed light as to the kind of democratic government best fitting for Nigeria in particular. How will this model ensure accountability and responsibility to everyday Nigerians, who, as it is, are ethnically oriented. How can this model be applied to the interest of other countries, especially those in conflict?

Drafted out government prototypes welcome for discussion.  

@ sauron: I'm not sure that absolute monarchy and Africa go hand in hand. Yorubas had a system of checks and balances with Obas, and Igbos followed an Athenian-type (sort of) leadership model with the Umunna/Umuada.

Kobojunkie:
So simply asking you a question is arguing for the heck of it? Oh boy!!! No worries!!

*Sigh*

Kobojunkie:
I did, not sure why that is WESTERN in anyway. Like someone already pointed out, we already had that sort of government system in place before the West came into the picture. Wondering why the WESTERN tag now and why it no longer works for the same country and people it has worked for in hundreds of years.

I agree - that has been my point all along. That is why I asked you - did you read my posts concerning why the western kind of democracy, one of many kinds, might not be viable? 

Sometimes I think you argue for the heck of it.

Kobojunkie:
What is WESTERN democracy?

Didn't you read my posts?

bawomolo:
Senegal and Ghana aren't homogeneous countries.  Even the US had a civil war but that didn't stop them from going on with the democratic experiment.  10 years of democracy and you want to give up?

Are Ghana and Senegal countries you would herald as successes? Please explain why you think so - and don't say peacefully held elections.

How many years do you estimate will make good for Nigeria with the way we're going? 50? 100? 1000? At the tip of the apocalypse? I understand that it's a few centuries after the American Revolution, but the U.S. was a strong, notable nation even back in historical times. It was one created by its people from the get go, and not one given by colonialists (I'm talking about the Union, not the British colonies prior to the revolution). Thus,  the U.S. was not, and is not Nigeria. You're comparing apples and oranges.

I think it's a given that Nigeria isn't miles better than it was 10 years ago. B.O.S.S. and co will even tell you that things have changed for the worse.

The reason I pose these questions in the light of things is that I see a clash between our inherent cultural values and the political theories thrust upon us.  

Look at the situations peculiar to us: reverence for our respective tribes and a distrust for those different from us; the politics of the Muslim north versus the Christian south; the debacle at the Niger-Delta; the blatant corruption and disregard of good; detachment of government from the reality of everyday Nigerians; and the lack of voice from the average Nigerian.

When we're blindly follow a model of government made for different people in different situations, and don't tailor it to meet our demographic make-up and cultural beliefs, there's bound to be trouble,  and thus fodder for opportunists who will loot till kingdom come. Observe post-colonial Nigerian history - can you tell me that ethnic tensions did not play the biggest role in what we're dealing with?

I'm all for a form of government that best pays heed to the needs of its people and furnishes them.

And, from my estimation, I'm not sure if it's westernized democracy.  I'm all for democracy, but I don't know if what we're practicing is ideal for us. A one-president, one-capital type, might not be so ideal for the likes of DRC, Nigeria, Sudan, and Kenya. All we're getting, at the end of the day, is the scramble for perceived limited resources (in leadership positions and other) and conflict, and corruption, and the destructive cycle continues.

I also don't think that western democracy is the mount Everest of government forms either. It works because it works for them, and not because it's the most evolved democracy there is.

lucabrasi:
there is no basis for comparison yet simply because all these examples are not practising an uncorrupted form of democracy, a corrupted form of democracy heavily tinged with a healthy dose of lneo liberalism isnt and cant be likened to democracy as it is worse than even communism in my opinion, a pure democracy is the only viable option for africa even though this sounds utopian,it is possible to achieve something close

I don't think you understood my question.

The corruption bit is kind of where I'm driving at. Every government form has some corruption. However, conflict (be it tribal or other) will always be fodder for disorder, and in chaos, more opportunities will rise for those who have ulterior motives, thus making for corruption of the most insiduous kind.

Given our tribal-conflict tendencies, the real question is if a centralized, one-person ruler type democratic government has proven to be better for Nigeria or all of the conflict prone countries. If not, how can we change our ruling style to fit our political awareness better?

@KoboJunkie, refer to my answer.

@tpia, no, I don't subscribe to dictatorships either.

I'd like to ask: is western style democracy (the election of one president; centralized government, etc) the way to go for proper accountability in the case of Africa? Tribal politics have played the most significant role in the conflict, corruption and strife prevalent in Africa and perhaps we should be looking for something that better fits our political state - I mean, take a look at Nairaland. If this website doesn't tell you about the tribal tension in Nigeria (and much of Africa), then nothing will.

How would a change of governance affect development? What, would you estimate, would make for an ideal model? Dictatorships haven't worked (as in the case of Singapore), and Western style democracy (as in the U.S.), doesn't seem too viable either.

I know someone is going to chip in with the success story of Botswana - we have to remember that it has unified stronghold (one main ethnic group, Setswana culture) and is a country with a small population. A model that would work for the likes of Nigeria, DRC, and Sudan would go miles in restoring order.

spikedcylinder:
I caught a few scenes from one episode the other day. Its good then?

Yeah. The episodes are really inter-linked though. You'd have to start from the beginning to appreciate it. We're only 14 episodes in, so you could catch up by watching it online. Hulu has all of the episodes, I think.

I find it funny when people dwell on tribe or state in embarrassing and mind boggle issues like this,nigerian problem is beyond state or tribe,it is more or less a race thing,black race,i don't see anything different b/w kaduna,abuja,onitsha or even HAiTI.

It's just the fact that we have lost the fundamental principles of life that is suppose to be our building blocks to illusions,we live in a fairy tale world where everything is impossible,even cleaning.

I tend not to dwell on issues such as race as I believe that all humans are equally blessed with potential, but sometimes I wonder.

It's even more mind-boggling when we never look inwards. Nigerians blame the government. The Nigerian government blames its rivals or sub-ordinates or the people. Nigeria blames Europe. Igbos blame Hausas. Yorubas blame Igbos. Blacks blame Whites. We all blame the devil and wait for God.

It's never about problem solving. It's always about blame.

[quote author=i_don_land link=topic=98768.msg1881183#msg1881183 date=1201117639]Also i believe we are where we are as a country due to mismanagement in the last 20years, the blame doesnt lie only on our leaders, it is the duty of the people who see a leader going wrong to speak up and let him know that they will not sit down and watch their futures be ruined. We have all failed as a people, we all sat back and enjoyed the stolen money, or the perks of having a corrupt society. I know a lot of people who say they never stole any money but yet they didnt pay their taxes, or they didnt do the little things that was required of them. Even the little things like following people to go on the wrong side of the street it all adds up to our me first mentality. We are all guilty of cutting corners so let us stop pointing fingers and turn towards ourselves and make a change from within, only then will our society start to improve.[/quote]Thank you for the truth.

JeSoul:
My sister I dey watch am religiously 
that was a nice nut-shell description of the show, Joshua is perfect with his sarcasm and wit and Anna Torv is simply fantastic. "Broyles & Charlie" are also nice supporting cast characters.
  I live in Boston and its so cool to see areas I know and have been to popping up on the show 

  Mehn it was a nice twist but not too suprising I guess. I think it'll end up being Bell that wrote it, it'll add up since he went on to found Massive Dynamic. I loved the x-files but I hope they don't make this an 'aliens vs humans' thing.

  I'm a lil nervous about the direction they're going with making Olivia "special" with the whole ability thing . . . but it should be fun if they can keep the writing creative.

I know, the alien vs human implication makes me nervous too, and the bit with Olivia and the shining lights sort of takes me back to the matrix, terminator 3 and "the one" syndrome.  Let's hope it doesn't go there, I think the writers know better than that, lol, next thing we know, we'll be thrown another curve ball.

Didn't think of Bell writing the book. it's a BIG possbility, seeing that Bell and Walter were acquaintances long before Massive Dynamic. I don't know why, but I also think there's more to Astrid as well.

Don't you just love when Walter seemingly ponders about something important only for you to find that he wants ice-cream or candy? lol.

Is the series a big deal in Boston, by the way?

afrodiziaq:
please o a beg does any one remember the name of that movie where she acted as a lesbian? i think she was in the movie with genevive or one of dem girls sha.

You're talking about Emotional Crack with Stephanie Okereke. As an aside, I think patience ozokwor did a good job in that movie.

It's the new series with Anna Torv and Johsua Jackson (The guy from dawson's creek). It's sort of like the x-files. Basically, Anna Torv is FBI agent Olivia Dunham, who tries to solves classified strange cases dealing with fringe science, amid the "pattern" and an impending apocalypse. She's assisted by a mad scientist Walter Bishop and his 190IQ criminal son. I lurve it. I especially like trying to catch "the observer" and how everything seems to link with Massive Dynamic. There're so many hidden symbols here it's not even funny.

No one around me watches it so I place it online. Anyone seen this week's episode? What do you make of Walter writing the apocalyptic book? I'm rewatching some episodes on hulu.com because I feel like something went over my head.

Several years ago I would have answered the weave question with a simple, "You know, it's only hair. As long as it looks good, why should it matter? Natural hair is harder for some ladies to manage, is all" I wouldn't have cared. A few observations have changed my thoughts.

Thing is, black women say that weaves are only fashion choices when a majority of them simply hate their natural hair. If an anonymous poll was set up to ask these women if they thought their own natural hair was ugly on them, a majority would answer in the affirmative. Let's be honest.

I tried growing out my natural hair years ago and got serious flack for it from friends and family. I succumbed to the pressure, got a hair relaxer, and regretted it. I have nothing against weaves and extensions in and of themselves, but when getting weaves and all stems from this, I rethink. I mean, someone on NL likened relaxing and covering natural hair to personal hygiene ( similar to shaving armpits, etc) - I think it was in a thread similar to this. WTF?

I don't put the blame on solely women. Black guys don't like afro hair on women either (they could make do with relaxed hair but the weavalicious chick gets all the phone numbers). They always yap about how natural hair is the most desireable on women and how "fake" girls are these days, but when you ask them to name the sexiest celebrities, they'll say: Naomi Campbell, Tyra Banks, Halle Berry, Sanaa Lathan, Gabrielle Union, etc. And, pray tell, how are they fashionably similar? You got it! I mean, a male poster confirmed it himself, 100% agreeing with the practice and saying that women wear extensions to please men (and implying that men are displeased with the natural look).

Kobojunkie:
Huh? Now I am confused. What has a success story to do with change being possible in Nigeria? Is it the government’s job to show our models? Nigerians are not fools. We know change is possible; We know of the vast majority of opportunities available to us, untapped resources abound aplenty, so why does selling us the story of a few who have succeeded, most by luck, to do with Change?

We were sold stories of persons like Awolowo, Abiola and co. Successful Nigerians back then who according to social studios overcame all odds; that did not change the fact that we still had to go home to dark houses and bad roads. Those who emulated those role models still deal with bad roads, no water, and no electricity. How is that change?

I still am confused here; why do you believe it is the minister’s place to sell us stories of role models we have in society? How can a corrupt government choose to sell us role models instead of fixing the problems that we continue to complain about? Problems that we pay tax to fix and what not? Why did we elect them as leaders in the first place?

I did answer your question. I asked you to look at the effects of WAI, SAP, MAMSA and all and what those accomplished in the same country in the area of changing minds the way you envision. Now I have to confess, I am confused again. Why are we empowering people here despite the enormous challenges? What enormous challenges are these? Why not put energy to removing the ENORMOUS challenges first and then push to empower the people with success stories?


Ever heard the saying “Action speaks louder than words”? She won’t need to sell us on the idea much if she has already implemented the changes. If the lines are open, trust me, most of those on Nairaland will be on those lines ASAP, trying to get their ideas to be heard by those in government. I am not sure how you do not see this. It is only re-branding if she has already implemented the change or currently is working on it and then out there trying to tell us about what is going on and how soon we can start connecting. Else, it will be all the usual Bull Crap we are used to and want no more of.

Even the most competent amongst us make mistakes. It is up to us, the people, to ensure that we do not embark on more white elephant projects that only end up wasting our time and money, and never really accomplish much. If she has more to come, then fine, but I will critic solutions such as these that only push to painting and not solving actual problems.

I will take your answer to mean that positive media images, as you expertly deduced, will yield absolutely no change for Nigerians in the face of adversity, and that Nigerians, without the aid of the government, don't need to do a thing regarding this image (via the methods I mentioned) for others until things magically go perfect overnight.

Nemeziz9ja:
I am not inferring that she will do a sham but I am sure that the system is a sham and things cannot be different until the realities are different.
Don't brand a bad road, no power and sick Nigeria. Thats utter folly.
Read my posts too.

I take it that you agree with Kobojunkie as well.

I disagree. Let's agree to disagree.

I'm ready to let this debate go.

Nemeziz9ja:
And because she has been competent before does not mean we should swallow the age-old sham.

Perhaps she will do things differently?

As to whether all that I said will only result in a sham, please reread my post to Kobojunkie to get the context of my reply.

Kobojunkie:
You say this as if we have not tried this before. Showcasing success stories does not
1) bring electricity to the people
2) does not fix the educational system
3) Does not bring clean water to the people
4) Provide roads and services to the public

I mean it does help boost endorphins, but what good does that do when at the end of the day the same have to deal with realities? If you have not noticed, there are actually so many Nigerian forum sites out there. So many of them but Seun happens to be lucky that he was able to get traffic to his site, and no, you can not say he is doing something no one else is doing out there in Nigeria. So, again, his case is unique in a field filled with so many others like his. So, telling people of success stories is one thing; development is another.

Now you are selling it as some magic pill solution. How can telling people of the likes of seun help change the numbers? We already have so many of those stories all through the schools. At best what it would do is get more people to create more online forums, trying to get people to come over to their sites at all cost. But does that help alleviate the problems in the country outlined above?


Let us stick to reality. Nigeria can change over night if it wants to, and that will only happen when we focus on solving the real problems rather than prescribing solutions that only aim to paint the main problems with beautiful colors and nothing else. RE-Branding is not to be used for MASKING our problems.

I never said there was a magic pill. I never said Nigeria doesn't have problems. I never said that we should ignore these problems. I only mentioned that change IS possible, even in miniscule amounts, and that showing success stories might be a catalyst for a little change in the positive direction. I don't think I remember such an image being aggresively shown to younger ones in school, at home, and adults about. You do know that success stories always have a model. What's wrong with showing our model, what works for a few in the face of adversity for others to emulate?

You still haven't answered my first question. Will these attempts, showing that there is a positive to inspire people (including government workers those who participate in the corruption rife in Nigeria, even the poor masses) to be better citizens despite the negatives and empower themselves with their brain and(or brawn, depending on their station in life) despite the enormous challenges, yield absolutely nothing?

She could focus on upgrading government communication for one and opening the lines to the people so we can better communicate with those we have in government and actually have a democracy. That is just one thing I see she can do to help better that country.

How could this be better received if she doesn't convey this method through positive media, by showing that these communication lines aren't a sham and that some results (NO overnight change, no magic pill, just a few results)  will result? In fact, isn't bringing this to light in public part of a rebranding process?

I read that article, and given Dora Akunyili's competence in the past (depite a few controversies), we shouldn't be so shortsighted as to piss on her suggestions when she's in charge. Maybe she has plans in line with what I just explained?

Kobojunkie,

In essence, highlighting hope and positives for ALL Nigerian citizens by showcasing success stories like Seun to others, by showing 1 in 100,000 to prove that it is possible, so that maybe the numbers change and people begin to have a little more respect for the country and treat it with respect, all via the methods I outlined (not just through the government), and advertizing our manpower for investors, will yield absolutely nothing. In addition, it is within the realm of possibility that without this, Nigeria can change overnight. Is this the summation of your argument?

If so, what would you suggest that our information minister, Dora Akunliyi, do instead, since positive media messages have been proven to be utterly useless in her line of duties? Care to tell me what she should be doing to show profitable margins in her field?

Again, I emphasize that this is not a magic pill that will solve our problems.

Let me state that this is not a magic pill that will solve our problems.

It will be to our advantage to know that there is no such thing as a magic pill.

We're so enamored by the elusive magic pill that we fail to see the little strides that each action makes. They add up you know.

So, what I gather from everyone then is that rebranding Nigeria's image, or at least emphasizing positives and reducing negatives for foreigners and LOCALS, is of no use. Revving up spirits for citizens as well as foreigners will do ABSOLUTELY nothing. There's NO aim, NO advantage versus loss, NO incentive. Zilch, zero, none, 0.  Nigeria has NOTHING positive to promote.

Seun, the originator of nairaland (where we all gather to heap negativity, ironically), is no indicator is there isn't a light of hope in Nigeria. A positive for youths to look up to emulate in the face of negativity, right? Past attempts by leaders who didn't do right with "rebranding," means that failure is paramount? It is not a matter of checking and correcting their methods, but throwing rebranding to the gutter, right? (I know someone will want to mention the negatives of Nigeria again being reasons for this, but now I'm only talking about media relations). Let me ask, aren't we all about solving problems?

I'm not saying that Nigeria does not need to be fixed (hence my magic pill analogy. You know, magic pill? Magic pill, anyone?). Of course there are lots wrong with Nigeria. But making the country magically perfect will not do much without relaying to the people in and out that there is reason to. Who even said that rebranding Nigeria's image was only for the government? Why not us? Why can't it be hear-say? Friend to friend? A night-club? A website from a random person? A magazine? Market-women rallies?

Why are we so rigid with our thinking?

Nemeziz9ja:
Yeah. I wish the logic is that simple. NEPA or is it PHCN now, will complicate the simple logic and thats why Unilever moved production to Ghana and noise pollution has come to stay.

That's one company in a bunch. What about MTN, Virgin Nigeria, Indofood, etc? There're many more franchises and international firms at home base. Sure a few will take flight, but campaigning for more investment means there's a chance that more firms will stay even though a few leave. Thus, making way for the benefits I outlined.

I understand what you are saying, and I emphasized that it is not a magic pill that will solve our problems. It is, however, something positive. Won't a positive image inspire diasporan hopefuls to return and make an impact somehow through entrepreneurships and leadership despite numerous challenges? After DECADES of negative image in the media, both foreign and local, who's to say that the opposite won't effect change? How do we know?

Living in America is a testament to the power of the media in shaping the minds of people. When positive images incite respect and loyalty, how do we know that our attitudes towards Nigeria will remain the same - disrespectful, disdainful, having tendencies to be corrupt, etc?

If Nigeria is rebranded for EVERYONE, if it becomes a pig in disguise because it is branded as a country that is not simply there to make money from and plunder, how do we know that the corruption, disregard, and disloyalty common to all parties will not be reduced in real life? Really, how do we know?

Ritzy restaurants serve the tiniest portions of mediocre food, but reservations are abound. Why? Image.


Yes, Nigeria is "shitty," so to speak, but can the smarties here tell me what good advertising does for a country on the low? That's right,  foreign investment. More foreign investment. Because the more money flows in, the more production will take place, and the more infrastructures, jobs, and the good things that follow will occur, making for a less shitty nation. Simple logic.

What about tourism? That's a lot of money for Nigerians who want to milk cash from bedazzled visitors.

I'm not saying that it's the magic pill for our problems, but there it is.

tpia:
Browsing some threads on this nairaland, it seems most naijas spend more time criticizing and competing with each other, than thinking of productive ways to make a difference. This trend is especially pronounced with the Yorubas and Igbos here, who are always engaged in a battle of the bulge aka my potbelly mercedes is bigger and better than yours.

other tribes spend quality time constructively analyzing the past as a way to build future progress. Not so most of the people I mentioned.

This explains much of the fluff seen in the cultural and tribal threads.

I agree with this statement.

However, I don't think the majority of Nigerians are this negative. Rather, I'd say Nigerian Diasporans tend to do this (inferiority complex with regards to how Africa is portrayed in the foreign media, perhaps? Racism? Occidental comforts/luxuries lacking back home?). The worst is how much they THINK they know and how they lord it over home-based Nigerians, as if they're any better.

Grammar and vocabulary aside (lord, do we know how to insult and put each other down), we're clearly lacking in practical intelligence. By that, I mean the ability to problem-solve and ACT. I said this before, and I'll say it again - we the people have the power to decide whether we'll develop or continue to stay dwarfed for centuries to come. It took a revolution to birth America and free France. It also takes the citizens' manpower and tax money to provide the amenities available in developed countries. Your call.

By the way, anyone notice how Nairaland has gone to crap? It wasn't this vapid when I registered an account three years ago.

Na wa oooo, two peepee threads dominating the culture section. While we're at it, let's open one for Igbo and Hausa guys!

The rate at which threads like this are recycled is amazing. Oh, we Nigerians!

What was the aim of this thread?

A better country.