₦airaland Forum

viaro:
@noetic16,

Excuse me?
I'm not one of those to "assume" anything here in 2 Kings 2:11. That verse clearly declares that Elijah went up into HEAVEN. The 50 men who went in search of Elijah were acting on their own "assumption" - that is why they went and searched for Elijah for three days but DID NOT find him anywhere on earth! They ought to have listened to Elisha who warned them not to go in verse 16 - so please, noetic16, you're acting on your own 'assumption' in the notion that 'we readily ASSUME'. No, I don't 'readily assume' anything here with you, sorry.

Since Elijah was not found . . ,  and Jesus said no man has ever ascended/been to heaven. .  ,  where then was Elijah?

1.   A careful reading of 2 Chron. 21:12-15 reveals that passage says nothing about its chronological occurence to be 'long after' Elijah's whirlwind experience. It simply said that 'there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet'. Scholars do not necessarily interpret most of the events recorded in the history of Israel as one single chain of chronology from 1 Samuel through 1 Kings to 2 Chronicles (commonly called 'the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel'); and some of the gist of events recorded in those books (as they are arranged in our Bible) are said to be written in 'periphrasis'*.

2.   Hence, the incumbent king (Jehoram) in 2 Chron. 21 should be understood in light of events in Elijah's time and ministry before the whirlwind experience of 2 Kings 2. For instance, in 1 Kings 22:50 we find just about the same thing as is recorded in 2 Chron. 21:1 -

[list]^{1 Kings 22:50}'And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Jehoram his son reigned in his stead'[/list]

[list]^{2 Chron. 21:1}'Now Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And Jehoram his son reigned in his stead'[/list]

3.   From the above alone, there's no need to assume again that the 'writing' from Elijah to Jehoram occured "long after" the whirlwind experience of the former. The prophet was already introduced in 1 Kings 17 (Elijah the Tishbite - v. 1); in 1 Kings 22:50 we are introduced to Jehoram's reign; and past that passage, we find Elijah's ministry reaching on into 2 Kings 2.

4.   The careful chronology of events around Elijah's ministry and departure do not lead to the notion that the 'writing' in 2 Chron. 21:12-15 occured 'long after' the whirlwind of 2 Kings 2:11. As regards the question of periphrasis* in both passages, we find the following interesting things -

1. Elijah wrote his letter to king Jehoram. Jehoram was the son of king Jehosaphat. ,  .  .Jehosaphat reigned during the prophethood of Elisha . . .Elisha reigned after Elijah's whirlwind experience. As at the reign of Jehoram, Elijah was fast out of the equation.

2. So contrary to your postulation. . . . .the letter was sent LONG AFTER the whirlwind experience. The question remains who delivered the letter? was it from heaven?

5.   In this, it is obvious that Elijah's 'writing' to Jehoram should have occured before the whirlwind took the former to heaven. You may disagree (perhaps with good reasons) that the chronology may not follow in this manner; but either way, the chronologies and periphrasis do not negate the fact of the statement that Elijah went into HEAVEN (2 Kings 2:1 & 11).

The chronologies establish the FACT that elijah did NOT ascend/went into heaven.

viaro:
@noetic16,

Thanks for your interesting comments.

You are welcome. but let me state that ur response is too long. . . please try and limit it to just the relevant parts to the discourse.

First, as to this clause in yours -If I were you, I would slow down with being pejoratively accusative against the Lord Jesus. For one, even as Christians, we might not know everything about the things of God; but should we go out of our way to therefore infer in upper case that Jesus would then be made out to be a LIAR? Please, noetic16 my guy, take it easy.

This is rather dodgy . . . .If I were u, I would look at that verse one more time before making a comment.
Jesus made a categorical statement that needs NO interpretation, and here u are attempting to twist it to fit into a preconceived meaning.

Now on to business:

There are more cogent reasons to believe what the Bible says about Enoch and Elijah being taken to heaven without experiencing death. The 'notions' you presented are just that - 'notions' - and they are unfortunately skewed. Let's see:

1.   I don't remember alleging that Elijah or Enoch "ascended" into heaven - "ascended" is not the word I used in quoting 2 Kings 2:11 for Elijah or in Heb. 11:5 for Enoch. It's obvious that John 3:13 is a statement of particular reference which cannot be stretched to deny the very fact of such cases as of Enoch and Elijah.

2.   That Elijah went up into heaven is shown in 2 Kings 2 twice - (a) in verse 1 ("when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind"; and (b) in verse 11 ("and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven". Statement could not be clearer, noetic16 - unless you just want to excuse the fact by appealing to 'notions'.

Dont mix up the facts.

1. Elijah did NOT experience death . . .This is a FACT we all know.

2. Elijah was translated by a whirlwind . . . . .this we also know.

3. Jesus stated CLEARLY that no man has ever been to/ ascended into heaven except for Himself who descended from it.

4. Elijah would later write a letter long after his "ascension" to the reigning king, . . . . .this shows that Elijah was very much around on earth.

5. No one knows where EXACTLY the garden of eden is . . . .Elijah could simply have been translated to an unknown place like the garden of eden. . . . .because Jesus did state that no man has been to heaven.

6. When Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden. . . .they were NOT subject to death.

. . , Submissively, The fact that Elijah did not see death does NOT translate to mean that he went to heaven. . .to insinuate such would be to call Jesus a liar.

3.  The meaning of Christ having "ascended" is categorically explained both in John 3:13 and Eph. 4:9-10. Quoting the latter, this is what the "ascended" means:

[list]⁹Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? ¹⁰He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things[/list]

4.   It is clear therefore that when Christ spoke of "ascended" in John 3:13 He was clearly making that statement in context of what issued from His death and resurrection - which is not the case for any other man, and definitely not the case for either Enoch or Elijah.

This is yet another attempt to twist the words of Jesus. John 3:13 and Eph 4:9-10 are talking of two completely DIFFERENT things.

1. in John 3:12-13 . . , Jesus made 2 categorical statements saying . . ,
12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus affirmed that Nicodemus would not believe earthly things not less heavenly things . . . .then He explicitly stated that quite unlike primordial beliefs . . . .No man had EVER been to heaven. This requires no further analysis or explanation.

2. Eph4:9-10 talks of Jesus having ascended (after His resurrection), had actually descended first into the lower parts of the earth . . . .many have interpreted this to mean that Jesus descended into hell to receive the key of life and death, . , and the same Christ who descended to these lower parts has also ascended ascended into heaven.

3. Eph 4:9-10 and John 3:13 . . . . .have NOTHING in common in explicit terms.

5.   Yet, we cannot deny that Elijah "went up by a whilrwind into heaven" as is declared in both vs. 1 and 11 of 2 Kings 2, in the same KJV that you favour/prefer. You either understand the context between those verses in 2 Kings 2 and John 3:13, or deny them all you want. But for all intents and purposes, the case is clearly made for the fact that Elijah 'went up' into HEAVEN - which is what this thread is about.

1. how did Elijaj send his letter? are letters sent from heaven?

2. is Jesus a LIAR? Jesus claimed that no man has been to heaven?

3. Is heaven the only place Elijah could have evaded death? could he not have evaded death in the garden of eden like Adam and Eve did?

6.   As you can see,  "ascended" was cited in reference to Christ, and not as you alleged was used for either Elijah or Enoch. Some might argue that ascended is the same thing as 'went up' - but that would be a fallacy in view of the fact that the former in context was defined in the NT (John 3:13 and Eph. 4:9-10), and neither case is confused the one for the other.

Bro, this linguistic terms IMO does not add credence to ur argument.

Your argument remains that Elijah and Enoch are in the spiritual/heaven. The bible clearly asserts that that is not the case.

Deep Sight:
^^^ Please lets not resort to pleadings of magic.

Is your "heaven" within three dimensional space and time?

If it is, then it is not a spiritual place.

If it is not, then no three dimensional entity could be compatible with it.

Period.

Are you suggesting to me that Jesus is still chilling right now in the spiritual "heaven" with his material body?

Thus God is in heaven in a physical body.

Wow! I must just leave you to that eminently bizzarre imagination.

Think through this thing before posting, abeg.

Gnite.

have u ever being to heaven before?

1. the saints of God will be glorified in due time as the father wills. we shall reign with JC in eternity. That is our glorification from the father.

2. the glory of God is depicted in worship and submission to His will. So on earth and in heaven the glory of God is supreme simply because He is God. . . .the creator of all things.

3. To share God's glory is to take credit for God's work.

4. saints will not be sharing God's glory as we take no credit for His work. . . , but the saints will be beautified thus glorified by the father . . . .because we overcame the tribulations of the earth and primarily because it pleases the father that we be glorified.

5. God remains God and His glory will not be shared.

^^^

DeepSight, I hope u know that ur assertions can not withstand a rigorous analytical critique . . .be it intellectual or scientific.
I strongly assert that you CANNOT exclude "spiritualism" in making a case for or against viaro's assertions.

1. A physical body is a three dimensional entity that has a spatial construct and thus can only dwell within space and time: spiritual realms such as “heaven” are said to exist beyond space and time and as such a body with a spatial construct cannot conceivably be compatible with such a realm.

This cannot be proven.

since you are yet to visit heaven or have the manual of the composition of heaven. . .it is inconceivable to suggest that man cannot be compatible with heaven, . . . .you con only safely assert with biblical injunctions that the human body was not designed for heavenly places.

2. Physical bodies are material and tangible and as such it is inconceivable that they could “enter” into a realm said to be intangible.

Jesus ascended into heaven (an intangible realm) with His physical body (tangible). . . . . .thus nullifying ur assertion. I do not for a milli-second assume that human bodies cannot ascend into heaven, . but I believe that the laws of God prevalent there forbids such.
IMO . . . .to define a "limited scope of possibilities" in heaven is to attempt to take the place of God.

4. A physical body cannot function in a spiritual realm: viz –

The ascension of JC nullifies this assertion.

luckyCO:
Does that mean that the song is purely correct?

Yup.

davidylan:
1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that[b] flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption[/b].

is that u on ur profile? that looks cool

Deep Sight:
The above directly contradicts this -

So what then?

Tell me exactly how something intangible can be divided.

To believe that the "God" concept cannot be "divided" contradicts the ontology of God u subscribe to , . .this ontology affirms that God is omni-potent.

what u need to explain is why it is impossible for God to be manifest in two or more places at the same time?
If God is that limited in scope and personality. . . .than He simply aint God.

How does Jesus stop being God by simply coming here on earth to save His creations?

Intangibility directly connotes indivisiblity.

No it does not. The concept we view as intangible is not defined as such in the spirit realm. would Jesus call God intangible?
If God is tangible to Jesus . . .what stops Jesus from dividing such?

The issue is largely the POTENCY of God to manifest Himself in several ramifications and not a case of divisibility. If your understanding and ontological definition of God does not include omni-potency . . , than u are referring to another entity and not Jehovah God.

Mars here refers to the origin of a martian.

You claimed that the origin of Jesus was “God” – that he came from “inside” God.

So that’s his original location, no?

An attempt to construct the location of JC is to assume that JC is a separate entity from God. Jesus is GOD.

Besides might I ask you where ALL living things come from?

- Inside God, or –

- Outside God.

Of course the former is the case; so what makes Jesus special in that regard?

Living and non-living things are CREATIONS of God. . . they neither come from or within God.

what are u doing on my network? . . . .chi-what?

what if there is no bullet in the gun.

@ OP

Why deny Jesus? I'd rather die to see Him, than live with the guilt of denial.

The glorification of the saints is a future event. . . . .that aside, the glory of the saints CANNOT be quantified with the glory of God.
So when as saints in the bossom of the father, we are glorified (to the shame of the sons of satan in hell) we would still sing that song. . .because our glory is to the glory of God.

InesQor:
Joh 3:11 Listen carefully. I'm speaking sober truth to you. I speak only of what I know by experience; I give witness only to what I have seen with my own eyes. There is nothing secondhand here, no hearsay. Yet instead of facing the evidence and accepting it, you procrastinate with questions.
Joh 3:12 If I tell you things that are plain as the hand before your face and you don't believe me, what use is there in telling you of things you can't see, the things of God?
Joh 3:13 "No one has ever gone up into the presence of God except the One who came down from that Presence, the Son of Man.
Joh 3:14 In the same way that Moses lifted the serpent in the desert so people could have something to see and then believe, it is necessary for the Son of Man to be lifted up--
Joh 3:15 and everyone who looks up to him, trusting and expectant, will gain a real life, eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life.
Joh 3:17 God didn't go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again.

John 3:13 in light of Enoch and Elijah does not make Jesus a liar. Did Enoch ascend into the presence of God? Can a physical man ascend into the VERY presence of God? That is another question, and not "can he ascend into heaven?" God said no man could see him and live. I don't think a physical body can survive in God's presence. Heaven is the vast and ambient place where God dwells. Is heaven a "location" like you can pinpoint physically? Nope. . . it isn't. I don't want to go into that.

In summary, only Jesus in his pre-incarnate form had been INSIDE God. He was saying the truth, and Enoch and Elijah went to heaven. The Bible doesn't say otherwise.

1. I use a KJV bible . . . .John 3:!3 talks of HEAVEN and not the presence of God.

2. since heaven is the dwelling place of God . . . .how could Enoch and Elijah have ascended there since no man can see God and live? is this not a contradiction?

3. Enoch and Elijah did NOT ascend into heaven . . . . to claim so is to say that Jesus lied.

^^^^ GBAM GBAM GBAM

That was lofly like mavenbox would reply such

JeSoul:
^^ awesome, I'm glad you put in some work on those verses, tanka. So in a nutshell based on the above, and please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you:

You choose to view every verse that speaks of Jesus being God - as symbolic?

-and on the flip side-

You[i] choose[/i] view every verse that may suggest He is not God - as literal?

Deep Sight:
^^^ Do you not realize how poetically that is also representative of YOUR approach -

You choose to view every verse that MIGHT INFER of Jesus being God - as literal

-and on the flip side-

You[i] choose[/i] view every verse that CLEARLY INDICATES He is not God - as symbolic.

Jesoul its ur turn to be twisted and turned by deepsight

viaro:
@DeepSight,

Let's take this as your basic enquiry that informs this thread:

Indeed. I'm persuaded that the physical body can enter into the realm of the 'spiritual' (if that's what you meant by 'intangible').

So, let me once more lay the foundation here for my convictions thereto. First, please remember that my point of reference is the Bible and NOT deism. The Bible is my source for "such things as the Almighty has provided for us" as far as this discussion goes, and there I rest my convictions about spiritual matters. Thus, within the matrix of the Biblical worldview I find the affirmation that physical bodies do enter into the spiritual realms.

A few examples oft-cited include:

(a) Enoch
The simple testimony of Scripture is that Enoch did not experience death - "Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him" (Heb. 11:5, ESV). For those who wish to argue endlessly to the contrary, my simple request is that they provide me any verse where Enoch is said to have died - death being defined Biblically as 'the body without the spirit' (James 2:26).

(b) Elijah
"Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (1 Kings 22: is an oft-quoted verse to this point, from which we understand that he was taken up bodily into heaven just as was reported of Enoch. There is not a single verse that declares Elijah's death anywhere in Scripture - if you disagree, please show me where it is said that Elijah experienced death: just the verse for Elijah's death should suffice, nothing more than that.

There are other examples, but let those two suffice for now. It is not an argument based on your personal disagreements or preferences about a physical body entering into the spiritual realms - rather, for me, it's one that is based on the Bible as my reference undergirding the convictions I hold on these things.

There is no reason to believe that Enoch or Elijah went to heaven/realm of the spiritual. . . . .and there are several notions that support this truth . . . ,

1. Jesus stated categorically in John 3:13 that no man has EVER ascended into heaven . .  .except for the son of man that descended from it. To allege that Elijah or Enoch ascended into heaven is to call Jesus a LIAR.

2. The case of Elijah is interesting because while we readily ASSUME that Elijah was taken by the whirlwind into heaven, the prophets who knew of the event did not assume so. In 2 kings 2:17,  50 men set out to search for Elijah based on the assumption and belief that he was probably dropped off in an unknown island.

3. Elijah would later write a letter to the reigning king, long after his whirlwind experience when he was supposed to be in heaven 2 chronicles 21:12-15. This suggests that Elijah was close by, else how did he get to send the letter? or are letters written from the spiritual realm?

4. Enoch was taken. . . .but to where?. . . .No one knows. . . . . .but we also know he never went to heaven. . .cos Jesus said so.

5. The bible talks of the death in Christ awaiting resurrection. . . . .it also talks of the patriarchs awaiting ressurecction. u might argue that the saints are now in heaven. . . .but the same bible AFFIRMS that their bodies are in the grave.

6. Perhaps if u expand the scope of the spiritual realm to include "unknown places" like the garden of eden. . . , then I might agree with ur submission. Because we do know that the garden is in this earth and Adam lived there where he was not subject to disease, ageing, death or other irregularities in our world today.


Submissively, if ur definition of the spiritual/immaterial includes other unknown places of existence like the garden of eden then I do agree that our physical bodies can dwell in such "heavens" . . . .but if u refer to the heavens where angelice beings and Jehovah reside. . . .then I am bound to disagree with ur submission.

Deep Sight:
^^^ That is my perspective. I regard it as irrational, especially if one reflects on what it means to state - "immaterial" or "intangible" realm.

What say ye, Noetic?

I'd like viaro to make his full submission before asking any questions and raising any posers to either of u.

---

viaro:
@noetic,

Hi. Not to worry - the link is: 'Show Me The Autheticity Of Your Bible', and in due course I shall sort out any point that may not be clear to you and others.

I just wanted to be sure DeepSight was not extracting ur quotes out of context as he normally does with mine.

huxley:
So what is it about hell that you are afraid of? Or what is it about hell that one should be afraid of?

Will it be possible to have s-e-x in hell?

You will soon be able to find out. . . . .if u dont repent.

Pastor AIO:
Pastor AIO is here o!  I wasn't going to get involved in NL for a while but this one I have to stand up and be counted before I get misconstrued for someone else.  

I don't do numbers much but I am not averse to a little foray into the queen of the sciences every now and again.  However the OP is not me.  I don't do computers.  I even got mocked by my teacher in school.  He told that next class after mine that if I could pass the exam then anyone could.  

. , , So good to know u now have a new convert. and why are u staying away from NL? . . . .

Pastor AIO:
I will not do and say anything to defend my beliefs. If my beliefs cannot stand scrutiny by themselves then I won't be bothered to defend them. My faith is not dependent on any belief systems or concepts. All these will pass away like the phantoms that they are. Truth, ineffable and pristine, is what I based my whole confidence on.

what is the truth?. . . .the truth is subject to several interpretations and a reflection of beliefs. beliefs could be false and erroneous. . . .as a matter of fact most beliefs are disguised fallacies branded as the truth.
where is ur evidence that what u hold dear is the truth? how did u come to the conclusion that ur beliefs are pristine?

MyJoe:
^^^ I think it's possible to know people's bent in these forums. If someone arranged numbers like Deep Sight, for instance, it would not be noetic16. There are no examples of PastorAIO doing numbers. He appears to be well grounded in history and liberal arts. But then, you may know something I don't.

Please dont take my submissions on this thread too seriously. I am only laughing at the "coincidental" nature of a new user whose first post is an invitation to IFA (a hot topic for "pastor" AIO).

I just dont subscribe to coincidences.

MyJoe:
No way! PastorAIO doesn't do numbers.

Says who? "pastor" AIO will do and say anything to defend his beliefs . . .he is not a coward.

whats the link to the thread from which the above quotes came?

when and where did viaro make such claim?

huxley:
Is your Pastor closer to God than you? Does he/she know more about God than you? Does he/she know the mind of God better than you? Does God have a special ear for pastors?

I dont have a pastor, so there is no basis for comparison . . . . .are u an enemy of God?

strange that this appears to be Sango's first thread on NL . . . where is "pastor" AIO ?

JeSoul:
Hehe, he will be here soon.

Then pray and actively seek for it. And I'm sure David would be willing to straighten you up should the situation arise lol. But honestly, I don't know how I would do without my family of believers, we're so close and do so much for each other. Until you have that, you'll be missing a very blessed and necessary aspect of the walk.

I do envy u though. . . . .if truly u are in the company of TRUE believers.

davidylan:
We need look no further than this section . . .  

Gbam! There is no better way to put it than this. Some call it accountability partners. you are far less likely to backslide if you have a group of genuine believers around you.

Seeking out a bunch of true believers is HARD. My not being in a fellowship is strengthened IMO by prophecy and the HS. . . . that while going through that which I go through. . . . there is a prophetic word that has decreed the end . . . .and the continuous counsel of the HS.

While I would love the company of true believers. . . .I however dont think I would grown as much as did in the company of anyone.

5solas:
Noetic.

If it is a process, how can anyone be saveD? No one could be saveD, until the end of the process,not to talk of ''remaining saveD''.

u are saved by believing in the sacrifice of JC and doing as He commanded.
There is the possiblity of backsliding. . . .but the scriptures say that For as many as are led by the spirit they are the sons of God . . . .implying that the continuous tutelage of the HS makes one the son of God.

JeSoul:
I personally immensely dislike when I hear an evangelist or preacher declare (usually pridefully) that "1000 people gave their lives to Christ" at this crusade or "350 teenagers made a commitment to Jesus" at the altar call etc . . . is the evangelist God? how does he know if those people are truly saved? I think when churches throw out these numbers they do so to "make themselves feel good" and say "see, our church is growing" - when it shouldn't be about that at all.

So true. I am sure KunleOshob will do justice to this aspect of the discourse.

Forgive the prodding. But do you have a group of believers that can hold you accountable? Iron sharpens iron. You need to be grounded or rooted in a fellowship of brethen, that you love and serve and build-up, and they love and serve and build you up too. That's the purpose of church.

unfortunately I dont.

wow that was a nice write up . . . . but there are already many stories like this in nollywood. . . . .so try again later.

davidylan:
lol they already label it as being biased, narrow minded, extremist, fundamentalist, intolerant, discriminatory, judgmental . . . you name it.

sounds familiar , .  ,

davidylan:
Even in the early church there were some like Hymenaeus and Alexander whom Paul wanted to personally deliver to satan for teaching heresies.

u just touched a rare spot.
Paul was an exemplary rare xtian who never cared whose ox was gored. If such was to be done today what would the world label it . . . .fundamentalism?

JeSoul:
Is "measuring church growth" a part of the great commission? when did Jesus or any of the apostles ever have the need to count how many followers they had?

by measuring growth . . . I refer to the great commission itself. . . . .which is to continuously make disciples.

actually that trend has become the norm rather than the exception. It is sad. My question to you is why remain in the local church if it is not a biblically functioning one?

Honestly, I do as the spirit directs. I have no loyalty to any church. There was a time I was asked to worship at KICC for a while . . . .while I disliked the way every sermon was ended with a demand for "seed" , , .God would always tell me to shut up and just listen to the message. I was recently told not to go there again.