₦airaland Forum

jagunlabi:
And see who is yarning dust.

Sometime after God was done with the creation, a group of very angry looking people who called themselves christians(based on the name of their religion) came looking for God. They came to him to make what they felt was an urgent request;

Christians:
God, we are very sorry to have to disturb your well earned rest, but we need your urgent help.

GOD:
Ooooooooohh!!! What is it, now? What do you all want.

Christians:
We have a problem that is burning us inside.

GOD:
Problem? When did i create you that you are already having problems? What do you know about problem, eh?

Silence.

GOD:
Okay, fire on with your request.

At the word, "fire", all the christians flinched and trembled seriously.

GOD:
What is wrong with all of you? Why did you all tremble like that?

Christians:
Because of that word you uttered just now. . . the "F" word.

GOD :
Do not lie against your creator, humans!! When did i utter the word, "FURCK"?!

Christians:
No,no,no! Not that "F" word . . . . the other one . . .

GOD:
Oh, you meant, FIRE?

A great trembling from the christians.

GOD :
Eyah! You people's problem is urgent, indeed! Hmmm, where did i go wrong with you people? Okay tell me quick!

Christians:
You see, we christians have this belief that only we believe in. . . and we want others to believe in it too.

GOD:
Ehen?

Christians:
You see. . .  we want all of them to believe in what we believe in, so we try to preach it to them, but instead of immediately accepting what we preach to them, they just make fun of us, and tell us that our belief reeks of cow dung. You see, our belief is. . .

GOD:
Stop! I don't want to know what your beliefs are! I am not interested in them one bit! So what do you want of me?

Christians:
We want you to make a little place for them to roast for eternity, because anytime they reject our beliefs, they burn our egos, so we also want them to roast and for eternity to avenge and satisfy our ego.

GOD:
Is that all?

Christians:
Yes, our lord!

GOD:
Mtscheeeeeww!!!! Is that why you all came to disturb my rest? Don't you have a little respect for the wellbeing of ya creator? Mttsssshhhheeeeww!! Don't you all know that you have already created that place of fff. . .  eternal roasting by yourselve?

Christian:
Really? How did we do that, our lord?

GOD:
By thinking it, it has already been created in your minds, and that is all that it takes. I don't need to do anything again! Look at these idiots coming to disturb my resting for something they've already created by themselves and for themselves. Nonsense!!

Christians:
Please, forgive us, o great one. But how do we get them into the roasting place we've created for them in our minds?

GOD:
Keep telling them and yourselves of it day after day after day until it becomes so real in your minds that it seems to start consuming you all from within, that is all. You can then herd them
into the place of eternal roasting that you have created in your minds. That should give you peace of mind again. Now go away and let me continue with my rest!

Christians:
Thank you, our lord! We are truly grateful to you, eternal father.

But God is already fast asleep and snoring. The christians qietly left looking very happy indeed. Their collective ego has just been given a very big boost.

mazaje:
@ Noetic

This god of the gaps argument is tiring. . .We don't know how the sun came about then god must have done it. . . . . . .The problem is that the bible and other religious text are there for all to read. . .read the bible and tell me if the god that is being talked about there knows anything about the position of the sun in the cosmos . . .Does the bible god know anything about the DNA? . . . A god that considers natural biological processes like menstruation offensive can NEVER know anything about DNA. . . Will you hurry up and show that your god created the sun? Any video or picture of your god putting the sun together? Beating or pointing to age long myths of men who thought and believe the sun revolves round the earth is really a pathetic case. . . .Any video showing that you god created life?

What else do you guys do beside using your god of the gaps argument all the time. . . .

Just Hear yourself  . . .Creation story eh?. . . .Is it the creation story that has been shown to be plagiarized from other sources? The same creation story that your fellow christians keep saying its an allegory because of how ridiculous and how it was very poorly written? . . .How did you god create the asteroids, comets and black holes? How did your god create the 12 moons around the planet Jupiter and the galaxies?. . . .How did your god create earth?. . . .Where did he get the raw materials from?. . . .What language did your god use to speak the birds we see around into existence? . . . .I may not be able to prove the nonexistence of your undefined and untestable god but I can very clearly show that men created the concept and idea you call god. . .Even your gods have all evolved from ignorant savages and their superstitions. . . . .Events we see around  and our ever incresing knowledge of the things around us keep disproving the existence of all your mythical and man made gods. . . .

You don't know where the universe came from so Yahweh the tribal god that used to reside with the ancient Jews inside their box according to the stories they wrote down must have done it eh?. . . . . .Interesting. . . .

The problem is your faith is NOT based on any rationality but on total obedience to the concept, fantasies, wishful thoughts and belief of other men like you. . . .

Pls your evidence for you god creating the galaxy will do. . .Sorry the galaxy is a bit too big. . .Provide evidence to show that you god created the moon. . . .Evidence not words that ancient Jews wrote down. . . .Even the ancient Greeks also claim that their own gods created the moon. . .A video or a creation factory  showing Yahweh creating the moon will be enough evidence. . . 

Anthony Flew accepted that their might be a god that created the universe we know. . . .He himself was not silly enough to conclude that the man made concept of god that people created and are worshiping created anything in the universe. , 


Believe my stories or face the imaginary wrath I have been conditioned to believe in eh? How long with this lame scare tactics of yours continue. . .We are tired of this lame scare tactics already. . . .What you are saying is that people should accept your culture or suffer when they die. . .The fact that the punishment you guys are promising will allegedly take place after death is very telling. . . . . . .Science has done more for humanity than any god or religion will ever do for humanity. . . .

And where is DNA mentioned in any books that the gods allegedly wrote or inspired people to write? who were those that found out about the existence of the DNA? Does any author of the bible know anything about the DNA?. . .How did your god create the DNA?. . . .DNA, human beings, mountains etc are all evidence for nature and the environment. . .They are NOT evidence for any imaginary god. . . .

More drivel. . . .Men wrote the bible, Men decided to ascribe what ever they wrote to what ever concept of god that they choose or saw will best fit their wishes. . .I repeat again no god ever said poo in the bible. It's just 2nd. 3rd and 4th-hand reporting if you leave in the supernatural beings from yahweh to the prophets to those who wrote it down and collected it (the editors). . . . .Take away the supernatural and you're left with the editors, either lying or deluded about the things they wrote.

I take away the supernatural because I see no evidence of its existence. Humans said what's in the bible and all other religious text, for their own reasons. "God said" means nothing other than "I want you to believe" and until you or anybody produce a god to speak for itself, I'm not interested in "God said in the bible". Its just some crazy delusion I tell you. . .

mazaje:
The problem is that you are just revealing what your god or belief is. . .Your god and you religion are both fear. . You can twist and say what ever you want but the FACT is you worship nothing but fear. . .The imaginary god that you will love to see punish those that do not accept your myths does NOT exist. . .all that exist are your twisted, bizarre and ridiculous imaginations and wishful thoughts. . . .Anthony flew is dead and gone and there is NO damnation waiting for him any where because he disbelieves in the obvious LIES and MYTHS of ancient people he does not even know. . ,

The existence of a creator is possible because we know very little about the universe. .

.The universe is NOT created by any of the man made gods people worship. . . .What has the tribal god that WAS created by the ancient Jews according to the culture and tradition got to do with the universe, A god that CLEARLY show that he does not even know anything about the universe we live in. . .Any number of natural causes could be postulated.  Collisions of other universes, black holes creating new universes, there could be hundreds of reasons.  And if there are other universes, what if those universes were caused by interactions of universes that existed prior to them.  Where does the concept of an all loving, all powerful God that cares ONLY for the tiny group of people on a small planet of a small solar system, in the outer edges of a small galaxy in the middle of hundreds of billions of galaxies, and possibly in the middle of hundreds and billions of universes?  To think that there is a God that created all that for just us?  I don't know how someone can maintain that viewpoint.  It's just idiocy.

Your mind is acting as if it KNOWS our visible universe is all that exists.  This is just foolish.  If a man was born and raised on a deserted island, never having seen another person, would he be right in assuming he was the only person on the entire planet?  While a closed mind may say yes, an open mind would entertain the possibility that they were not the only one.  This is exactly what your mind is doing.  It is closed to the possibilities that ours is not the only universe, simply because that seriously fits badly with your preconceived notion about our own universe.

wirinet:
You are being economical with the truth here (notice, i did not say that you are lying). Christians definitely do not believe in the existence of Santa Claus, Jupiter, Mars, Thor, Odin, Venus, etc, if you doubt ask a professing Christian.

This your non - existence argument is baffling. So you are telling me that all that is needed for you to believe anything is a proof of non existence of that think. Meaning you accept the existence of a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow because you cannot prove its non existence, or you accept the existence of the  loch ness monster roaming around the little Scottish river, because with all the years of search by so many, with highly sophisticated equipment, nobody has been able to prove its existence or non existence.

wirinet:
My apologies, it is the 21st century, it was an error due to my working and trying to post at the same time.

Noetic, i honestly do not find pleasure in religious arguments, like political arguments, it always leads to a dead end. Each person is caged in his mental universe and anything outside universe is forbidden no matter how logical or obvious it is.
The only time i feel compulsion to respond to post is when someone arrogantly attempts to denigrate others because they hold a completely different view from their acquired beliefs. They then exhibit a feeling of being special and others less than special, or they take on a moral high ground and see any other opinion immoral. That is why i have an aversion (apologies to davidylan) for religious fundamentalists.

I wish they can be contented and satisfied with their personal beliefs and allow other to their personal beliefs no matter how ridiculous it might sound. If a person like let him take a piece of stone and decides to make that a representation of his God, it is his/her right. But it should not lead to hatred, bigotry and discrimination.

I know they is a lot of resentment for atheists, and some tend to view them as less that humans and not worthy to live. The truth is that atheist cannot be wished away, except you want them to go underground as was the case of Christianity in the beginning.

Noetic, you cannot build a religious cage and expect everybody to trap that person one step at a time. You first ask a person to enter the theist trap by believing in the existence of Gods, then you steer the person to believe in your own particular God, then to your own particular denomination as opposed to Cele or Catholic, and finally you want the person to have your own interpretation of your denominational views. In fact you want other people to become you before you are comfortable interacting with them.

Accept people for what they are, your beliefs is not superior to that of the Buddhist or Ifa worshipper. Every body holds a belief that is in harmony with himself.

rich_john:
@oladeegbu
Poor analogy typically of 'shallow-life' members.    I really wonder why peple will believe anything called hell-fire, yeah there may be judgement but Everlasting roasting na lie! if someone lives 15 years on earth as a sinner so the young teenage will roast like a barbecue forever abi? Logical reasoning cancels the idea! My yoruba friends always say no matter how stubborn a child is the parent will not throw him to be eaten by a tiger

wirinet:
Please listen to your self, you guy keep regurgitating ridiculous arguments. How can you prove non existence of anything. I you can, then please prove the non existence of vampires, santa claus and Jupiter (the God), while at it have a go at proving the non existence of aliens from the Andromeda galaxy, a 10th planet in the solar system and a civilization living in the centre of the sun.

wirinet:
It is amazingly shocking that full grown men living in the 20th century can believe such outlandish things like Gods.  Some believe their God is three in one or it it one in three, there even believe one of the three came as a human being suffer,beaten and be killed by mere men, in order for the other part of himself to forgive mankind, even though he can not actually die.

The other religions are just a preposterous, they are mere political tools of subjugation and exploitation of fellow human beings.

Religious people especially the Abrahamic  variation, is close to mass hysteria mixed with psychosis. The greatest plague that has afflicted mankind and still afflict mankind is Religion and it destructive, wicked, egocentic and intolerant Gods.

mazaje:
@ OP so the fact that Anthony Flew accepted that their might be some kind of designed to the universe means that atheism is wrong and christianity right eh?. . . .By the way Anthony Flew never accepted that the christian god or any of the man made gods out there was real, He was willing to accept some form of a deist god. . . ,

What would a convincing argument for God's existence be like since there are so many god concept out there? Depends which "god" you're talking about. Most "god" concepts are either logically incoherent or cognitively vacuous and don't even require a preponderance of evidence to prove their non-existence. . . .Even christianity has many different versions  including some that were wiped out (such as the Gnostics, whose god was quite different). There is no one god even in christianity, but a multiple of ideas of this god that people are endlessly and frivolously trying to reconstruct based on some scriptures that were written by unknown men that also had different views of they god they were talking about.

Believers sometimes complain that atheists seem to accept no argument whatsoever for God's existence, and that they've already decided beforehand that God doesn't exist. Though to be honest, it seems like theists have accepted beforehand that God exists, but let's leave that for the moment.

So let us discuss: What would a convincing argument for God's existence be like? How could its veracity be established?

Most theist arguments are of this form:

1. There is something we don't have an explanation for.
2. Put God as the explanation.
3. Therefore, God exists.

Man has made tremendous progress in discovering answers to so many things and the answers keep disproving the existence of the man made ideas of their various gods. . . . .Natural phenomena are witnessed and studied all the time. Evidence for natural phenomena is abundant. A universe containing or beginning with the supernatural is an assumption.

There is no evidence for supernatural phenomena, and when alleged supernatural phenomena is studied a natural explanation is found, Issac Newton looked at the constellations and could not come up with any explanation for what kept the planets together around the sun in orbit and concluded that it was god that held them together. . .Now we know that no god actually hold the planets in orbit and have developed very good explanation for that  . . . . .Creationists embrace a belief system which rules out any other explanation - no matter what. . . . . .

Genesis is right. End of story. . . . . .No matter that Creatiionists are unable to produce any historical, geographical, geological, archaeological, biological, paleontological or cosmological evidence which substantiates anything in Genesis and[b] is accepted as valid by non-Creationists[/b].

And in 50 years' time, will science still be fumbling around? In 100 years' time? And when, eventually, it tells us how it as done, what new esape route will the Creationists have to hunt for?

Purely logical arguments cannot prove the existence of anything. They need some sort of premises to work from, and we can only get those premises from evidence.

If God actually existed, and was benevolent and powerful (as he is usually described), then he would participate in communication in a manner that is as clear as my communications with other humans. He would NOT communicate in a way that is impossible to distinguish from my own random thoughts. . . . .

babaearly:
So you mean Jesus can allow a Taoist to enter heaven as he desires?
and do you mean a non-christian has eternal salvation but will gamble with it if he doesnt convert to christianity?

Enigma:
One thing saddens me about this episode though:




False doctrine of some of our fellow Christians, especially harshness and a readiness to condemn people to "hell" do turn otherwise intelligent people off Christianity. It reminds me of a song from a most beautiful hymn/song "There's a Wideness in God's Mercy" (especially when sung to the tune Corvedale which unfortunately is not one of the tunes in the link): http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/t/h/e/therwide.htm

In truth, part of the fault is with the "intelligent" people too in that they often don't apply enough intellect to understanding true biblical teaching and go by misrepresentations and in extreme cases, like Dawkins, are duplicitous in their tactics. Nevertheless, I believe that we need to balance all this "hell" and brimstone things with a true perspective on God's love as well without going to the other extreme a la WoF that god is my "sugar daddy" or my "boyfriend"!

Deep Sight:
I am very sorry to say what i am about to say.

Apologies in advance to those who I may offend.

BUT ATHEISM IS STUPIDITY.

"As people have certainly been influenced by me, I want to try and correct the enormous damage I may have done." (Anthony Flew)

The newspapers these days are echoing with these regret-filled words by Antony Flew, in his time a well-known atheist philosopher. The 81-year-old British professor of philosophy Flew chose to become an atheist at the age of 15, and first made a name for himself in the academic field with a paper published in 1950. In the 54 years that followed, he defended atheism as a teacher at the universities of Oxford, Aberdeen, Keele and Reading, at many American and Canadian universities he visited, in debates, books, lecture halls and articles. In recent days, however, Flew has announced that he has abandoned this error and accepts that the universe was created.

The decisive factor in this radical change of view is the clear and definitive evidence revealed by science on the subject of creation. Flew realized, in the face of the information-based complexity of life, that the true origin of life is intelligent design and that the atheism he had espoused for 66 years was a discredited philosophy.

Flew announced the scientific reasons underlying this change in belief in these terms:

"Biologists' investigation of DNA has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce [life], that intelligence must have been involved." [1]

"It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism." [2]

"I have been persuaded that it is simply out of the question that the first living matter evolved out of dead matter and then developed into an extraordinarily complicated creature." [3]

The DNA research which Flew cites as a fundamental reason for his change of opinion has indeed revealed striking facts about creation. The helix shape of the DNA molecule, its possession of the genetic code, the nucleotide strings that refute blind chance, the storage of encyclopedic quantities of information and many other striking findings have revealed that the structure and functions of this molecule were arranged for life with a special design. Comments by scientists concerned with DNA research bear witness to this fact.

Francis Crick, for instance, one of the scientists who revealed the helix shape of DNA admitted in the face of the findings regarding DNA that the origin of life indicated a miracle:

An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going. [4]

Based on his calculations, Led Adleman of the University of Southern California in Los Angeles has stated that one gram of DNA can store as much information as a trillion compact discs. [5] Gene Myers, a scientist employed on the Human Genome Project, has said the following in the face of the miraculous arrangements he witnessed:

"What really astounds me is the architecture of life. The system is extremely complex. It's like it was designed. There's a huge intelligence there." [6]

The most striking fact about DNA is that the existence of the coded genetic information can definitely not be explained in terms of matter and energy or natural laws. Dr. Werner Gitt, a professor at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology, has said this on the subject:

A code system is always the result of a mental process. It should be emphasized that matter as such is unable to generate any code. All experiences indicate that a thinking being voluntarily exercising his own free will, cognition, and creativity, is required. There is no known natural law through which matter can give rise to information, neither is any physical process or material phenomenon known that can do this. [7]

Creationist scientists and philosophers played a major role in Flew's acceptance of intelligent design, backed up by all these findings. In recent times Flew participated in debates with scientists and philosophers who were proponents of creation, and exchanged ideas with them. The final turning point in that process was a discussion organized by the Institute for Metascientific Research in Texas in May, 2003. Professor Flew participated in the discussion together with the author, Roy Abraham Varghese, a physicist, and the molecular biologist, Gerald Schroeder. Flew was impressed by the weight of the scientific evidence in favor of creation and by the convincing nature of his opponents' arguments and abandoned atheism as an idea in the period following that discussion. In a letter he wrote for the August-September, 2003, edition of the British magazine Philosophy Now, he recommended Schroeder's book "The Hidden Face of God: Science Reveals the Ultimate Truth" and Varghese's book "The Wonderful World." [8] During an interview with the professor of philosophy and theology Gary R. Habermas, who also played a major role in his change of mind, [9] and also on the video "Has Science Discovered God?" he openly stated that he believed in intelligent design.


The "Intelligence Pervading the Universe" and the Collapse of Atheism

In the face of all the scientific developments outlined above, the acceptance of intelligent design by Anthony Flew, famous for defending atheism for many years, reflects a final scene in the process of collapse which atheism is being subjected to Modern science has revealed the existence of an "intelligence pervading the universe," thus leaving atheism out of the equation.

In his book "The Hidden Face of God," Gerald Schroeder, one of the creationist scientists who influenced Flew, writes:

A single consciousness, a universal wisdom, pervades the universe. The discoveries of science, those that search the quantum nature of subatomic matter, have moved us to the brink of a startling realization: all existence is the expression of this wisdom. In the laboratories we experience it as information that first physically articulated as energy and then condensed into the form of matter. Every particle, every being, from atom to human, appears to represent a level of information, of wisdom. [10]

Scientific research into both the functioning of the cell and the subatomic particles of matter has revealed this fact in an indisputable manner: Life and the universe were brought into being from nothing by the will of an entity possessed of a superior mind and wisdom. There is no doubt that the possessor of that knowledge and mind that designed the universe at all levels is Almighty God.

OLAADEGBU:
It makes no difference whether you are afraid or not, do you want to find out for yourself?

viaro:
The dishonesty is yours, keep it. If I have quoted you out of context, please show instead of grumbling and showing nothing.

You denied that Elijah went up into heaven - I have repeated the several quotes showing your categorical denials. To now come back fine-tuning your denials to become an "unknown places" is just a sham! We KNOW about the realm of heaven you describe as including the outer space, planets, sun, moon and stars - so what absolute rubbish are you on about?

Please find better ways to lie - you bore me already!

2 Kings 2:1 & 11 - Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. That has always been the simple quote I left you without trying to adjust it to the realms of the outer space, sun, moon, stars and all such things you called "unknown places".

viaro:
So wait. . . you now admit that the Scriptures say that Elijah went into heaven? How does that square with your denials earlier outlined - viz:

[list](a)
(b)
(c)
(d)[/list]

Do any of the above sound like your recent admission of "The scriptures say Elijah went into heaven" after you initially denied the fact?

Please. You categorically denied what 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 declared after I had posted it several times, only to now come back crawling to excuse your denials? Just pass.

Kindly stop dancing between two opinions. It is either Elijah went "into heaven" as Scripture says in 2 Kings 2:1 & 11, or noetic16 is denying that is what is written as he has done earlier. Which is it? You have chosen previously to deny that is what Scripture says, and your excuses are not making anything better for you.

I'm sorry to say already that i'm not a slow reader and I have seen enough in your denials to know there's nothing new in your posts.

It was long overdue.

viaro:
That Elijah went up into HEAVEN. That for a start and a host of other things. If you want to see, here it is:

(a)
(b)
(c)
(d)
These are just a few - and you kept arguing away on your denial of the simple statement that Elijah went into HEAVEN as declared in 2 Kings 2:1 & 11. It was not until recently that you came round trying to recapitulate on that denial to now divide it between realms - first saying that Elijah might have been taking to any place beyond the scope of our understanding; and then later to the second realm (realm 2) in your escathology.

Here are the quotes:

(a)
(b)
These denials repeatedly appearing in your arguments and then excused on many counts was why I left you to your trade. As earlier, I would be glad to discuss with you where you would be reasonable rather than denying Scripture and then excusing it over and over again.

Deep Sight:
1. That is assuming that your Prophet is God himself, which is not a given

 2. Even if it is a given, that death was a death of a physical body and as such had no reference to "destrying God." Even mere human beings are not destroyed by physical death. . . how much more "God? ? ?"

Now here you wildly contradict the foregoing by AFFIRMATIVELY agreeing with me -

There you have it.

You have EXPLICITLY accepted that God cannot cease to exist - thereby agreeing with me that ceasing to exist is ONE thing that God CANNOT do on account of his self - existent nature.

So what do you make of your "omnipotence" now? ? ?

Ehn? Ehn? ? ?

viaro:
The error was not mine, and I could let it pass. Nor was I seeking any escape hatches. I have made my points clear, did not find you explain anything exegetically other than repeated denials that still showed absolutely that you were not willing to acknowledge what Scripture declares. It was on account of that kind of behaviour that I was glad to let you be - but said that I was still open to discuss if you showed any interest in a bit more mature comments. Do you care to do so now, please?

mazaje:
Hell is going to be so jammed full of lying Christians that I fear I will never get in.

viaro:
@noetic16,

This is one example why I wonder that you are on a denial trip:

I am not going to do anything about other than observe that you're affirming your own denials over 5 times. This is what Hebrews 11:5 says - "Enoch was translated that he should not see death" - that is what the Bible says; and I can't do anything about your denying what Scripture says.

So, please excuse me here - as I can't go on attending your repeated denials, I'd rather attend unto something else. In the event that either you or DeepSight would be mature enough to be honest in this thread, viaro would be glad to join you in the discussion.

Until then, you've seen the last of viaro in this thread.

Cheers.

opata:
another poor attempt at disparaging the church?

pathetic!

viaro:
@noetic16,

I did not confuse your quote, please. If anything, I tried to show that in particular reference to Enoch and Elijah, they did not experience death; and their bodies are not said to be the in the grave. That was all. Now if you argue to the contrary, please show me where it is written that -

  (a)  they (Enoch or Elijah) died
  (b)  that they were buried
   (c) and being buried, they bodies were in the graves.

If you cannot show that, please let me know - so that we don't have to fill this page with unnecessary side commentaries that are NOT germane to this gist of the thread, thanks.

Okay thanks - and your point initially that "u might argue that the saints are now in heaven. . . .but the same bible AFFIRMS that their bodies are in the grave" was meant for the mechanical device of . . what?!?

If you know that something does not help you in this subject, do you mind keeping it away so this thread can be tidy? It seems that we have not even gone anywhere and you're already arguing against yourself. Huh?

Does that include Elijah's and Enoch's?

Mr noetic16, please stay on course. This is not about "the saints", but rather about specific examples - Elijah and Enoch. If you have any place where their bodies are in the graves, please show me - if not, please retain any such unnecessary arguments to yourself so we don't lose the trail of what indeed we set out to accomplish in this thread.

I did not make a platitude about ALL the saints - for which I specifically cited Elijah and Enoch. To come back and argue about Elijah and Enoch being "not among the dead in Christ. . . , neither are they among the 3 patriarchs of Israel" is a bit out of step with the whole inclination of the basic premise - that Elijah went up bodily INTO HEAVEN. This premise ("that Elijah went up bodily into heaven" is what Deepsight queries in my convictions, and that is what you have tried to query as well. But I still stand with already cited reasons to believe that 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 are simple and straight forward - Elijah went up into HEAVEN as the Scripture says.

Primordial or not, please I want to keep asking YOU: what then does 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 say? What does it mean by what it says in declaring that Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN??

Are you not the one who tried to drag in Adam and Eve here for a case - whether for or against the case of Elijah? Do you remember your own posts, or just typing away and coming back to eat back your words?

Hebrews 11:5 - he was NOT FOUND because God had translated him. What does that mean to you?

Did you carefully READ the passage and what I discussed? The gist of 1 Corinthians 15 is that the bodies shall be CHANGED - I made that point clear in my post with the word "changed". The changing of our bodies affects BOTH the dead in Christ and those who are alive when it happens. Who they are in every detail, I don't know. But I do know one fact: Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN as the Scriptures declare - and not one verse says anywhere that their bodies were on earth, in so far that he did not experience death.

You did say that the bodies of the saints are in the grave - {". . . u might argue that the saints are now in heaven. . . .but the same bible AFFIRMS that their bodies are in the grave"}. Now if you're categorically saying that excludes Enoch and Elijah, that is alright with me. So, please address my curiosity: where are their bodies, noetic16? Please don't come back with useless conjectures - just discuss with me and show me where their bodies are. Thanks in advance.

I am not unware of these spheres of the term "heaven" or "heavens". I do not know if you understood the hint that I was qite aware of these things (which was why in my reply to DeepSight earlier, I said: "The question is not so much that it does, but rather which 'realm' of heaven would we be referring to?". But thanks for your attempts - I appreciate all the same; but I don't necessarily take that as all conclusive.

A second problem that might bear for YOU is this: which of these spheres of the HEAVEN/HEAVENS do you wish or hope to convince DeepSight about as beyond the spatial constructs of time and space? How does that function and in what dimensional reality/realities - ontologically?

And your point was. . .?

Okay, first you deny that Elijah went up into HEAVEN - but now you are shifting the goal post to assent that he might indeed have been taken into (^^^^^^^) . . . but with a slight disclaimer that reads: 'anywhere outside the scope of our knowledge'. Sweet. Problem is that you're dancing around, dude.

You just told us about 3 spheres/realms of "heaven" - you would not be talking about them IF you did not know about them, yes? Yes.

But indeed, when it comes to Elijah, there's not a sphere you can identify - but you'd rather fling him to anywhere outside the scope of your knowledge. Thank you (in Italian, that is).

Dude, please, please, please . . . I've had a good day, I can't laugh enough!

Read after me: "2 Kings 2:1 & 11 say that Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN".
Again: "2 Kings 2:1 & 11 say that Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN".
Now opn your Bible and read it again until you master it: "2 Kings 2:1 & 11 say that Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN".

Good.

Anywhere you don't understand within your 3 realms of "heaven" can do - just leave Elijah alone, you hear me?

Fantastico!  I hope your friend DeepSight can relax now - at least I hear a grumbling churning inside of him with a negation of his "gabm".

Enjoy.

aletheia:
@Viaro & NoeticErr. . .just a question.
Where did Moses and Elijah appear from?

viaro:
His statement needed to be interpreted in light of the context that appears both in John 3:13 AND Eph. 4:9-10. To ignore the fact of context is to arrive at pretext - which was what I was avoiding and so had to consider them. If you quote a verse all by itself and never consider its interpretation, you're violating the principle of Biblical exegesis - see 2 Peter 1:20 - 'Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation'. That tells us that we cannot arrive at any conclusions by just taking a single text without its context and arrive at preconceived pretexts, as you did.

The fact before you is what 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 declares - Elijah went into HEAVEN by a whirlwind. How come you acknowledge the fact of the whirlwind and then excuse its concluding part of the same verse saying he went up into HEAVEN because you simply cannot acknowledge what it says? Please explain what 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 may mean, instead of jumping the pail and not addressing those verses.

1. The bible talks about three kinds of heaven.
A. The first heaven is our immediate sky where birds fly and rain drops from . . . . .this heaven is described in genesis 7:11-12
B. The second heaven is the heaven refers to the outer space, the sun, moon, stars, planets and other "UNKNOWNS" . . . . this heaven is described in Genesis 26:4, psalm 8:3, deuteronomy 26:62, Isaiah 13:10, deuteronomy 1:10
C. The third heaven is the heaven where God lives with His angels. .  . ,  .hebrews 8:1, deuteronomy 26:15 and 2corinthians 12:2

2. there are several places including the other planets where the bible describes as "heaven" . . .  .this does NOT imply the dwelling place of God. . . .because Jesus was explicit in stating so (John 3:!3)

3. So when I talk about the unknowns . . . . .I imply that Elijah and Enoch could have been taken to anywhere outside of the scope of our knowledge. ,   .  but definitely NOT the heaven where God dwells.

This is mere conjecture - the verses you cited did NOT teach that the letter was written after the whirlwind experience - and I have outlined WHY that could not be. Please stop dressing this page with long unfounded excuses and denials, so you don't come back complaining about my lengthy replies.

What has the garden of Eden got to do with 2 Kings 2:1 & 11, noetic16?

Dude, please wake up - 2 kings 2:1 & 11 declare that Elijah went up into HEAVEN - that has nothing to do with Eden. You are the one that said that Eden was on earth, remember? So what correlation is there between an Eden on EARTH and Elijah went up into HEAVEN?!? Please show me the link and let's read something to the point, please.

I did not cite Adam and Eve as having gone into HEAVEN. Please stay on course.

I'm not the one alleging the 'liar' against the Lord Jesus; and I did not deny the meaning of His words in John 3:13. Instead of denying anything, I acknowledged them and tried to offer explanations in CONTEXT of what He might have meant - which indeed Ephesians 4:9-10 provided. Nor did I try to jump gun by equating Eden on earth (as you inferred) to be something akin to HEAVEN as is written in 2 Kings 2:1 & 11.

If you have something to say beyond your denials, please do so. The explanations I gave are still there; I tried to stay on course - which is why you don't read me equating Eden on your earth to HEAVEN. Do you care to give something of substance as to what 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 might mean beyond your denying them with excuses of Adam and Eve that have nothing to do with the case in point?

The statement Jesus made requires a contextual understanding in light of the warning of 2 Peter 1:20, or you might as well be saying that you enjoy violating the principles of Biblical exgesis. It is for that reason that I took time to show that Ephesians 4:9-10 explains what the "ascended" might mean, where it asks this question: "What does he ascended mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?" Does that not show you that such a question is dealing with MEANINGS - and there, it is the MEANING of "he ascended"?

Even at that, please explain (or excuse) 2 kings 2:1 & 11 - it declares that indeed Elijah went up into HEAVEN. It does not say that Elijah's going up into HEAVEN is the same as what the ascending of Christ might have meant as explained in Ephesians 4:9-10. Do you care to leave your denials aside and then explain, exegete, elucidate on 2 Kings 2:1 & 11?!?

Whatever 'many have interpreted this to me', please I want your own explanation as to how you want to deny 2 Kings 2:1 & 11. That is all I'm asking of you - explain what Elijah's case might have been BEYOND YOUR CONJECTURES. Thanks.

They do - that is why you fail to see them and just deny them without saying ANYTHING about their contextual meanings.

No, Jesus is NOT a liar - and that was why I explained what He might have been pointing to in those passages we have read and repeatedly cited. If you reject context, then it is no wonder you're hell-bent on ascribing such perjorations to Jesus. I would rather that you keep your excuses and remain far more ignorant on matters you don't know about, than try to put up a front by alleging Jesus to be a liar.

What has the Garden of Eden got to do with the fact that 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 declare that Elijah went up INTO HEAVEN?!? You can keep your conjectures about Eden on earth; but please don't humour yourself on your excuses - it's beginning to make me wonder about you.

Leave the linguistic terms if they are beyond you. Just show me what 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 are saying without throwing some conjectural soup on the table.

The Bible simple says: "the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind" and "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven". When you're done denying what the Bible says, please let me know. But thanks for trying, anyways.

mazaje:
What is this . . . .What faith?. . . Its like you always have absurd answers up your sleeve for absurd biblical postulations. . . .

Deep Sight:
This is the difficulty a lot of people seem to have regarding understanding the omnipotence of God.

Gods is omnipotent regarding creation, his creations.

God’s omnipotence does not extend to irrationality and logical impossibilities. God himself remains bound by self existent realities beyond which nothing can be changed.

To prove this in absolute terms I will set forth to you a number of things that God cannot do.

1. God cannot kill himself – because God is self-existent.

Let us look at the above. A superficial understanding of omnipotence will insist that God can do anything – however God’s self existent nature means that he cannot cease to exist and thus this already represents ONE thing that God cannot do – he cannot destroy himself.

This is what I meant by saying that God’s omnipotence is circumscribed by self-existent realities because God himself is self-existent. God therefore cannot change self-existent and immutable things – such as himself.

2. God cannot make a stone that is impossible for himself to lift and then proceed to lift it.

This is a famous philosophical example. If God creates a stone that is impossible for him to lift, and then lifts it, then the stone was not impossible to lift. An inescapable logical conundrum.

What this example shows is that all reality is compelled along lines of self-existent logic, and that not even God can over-reach or supersede such, nor would he so seek to do, being self-existent himself.

The summary of the two instances above is that God does not and cannot contravene self-existent reality.

God himself is self-existent.

Thus when it is said that God being intangible and infinite cannot be divided, this is a self-existent principle of logic which not even the presumed omnipotence of God can alter.

I have not said that this is impossible. I would only wonder why one manifestation would worship another manifestation or be called the servant of another manifestation. Or why one manifestation would state categorically that it does not possess some of the key attributes of God – such as perfect purity and omniscience.

Since this is the case in the instance of Jesus, I am compelled to conclude that he could not be God.

Joagbaje:
A christian is born in the image of God. he is part of God. So the song is not apllicable to the new creation.

viaro:
@noetic16,

1.   The Bible nowhere declares that Elijah's body is in the grave anywhere. Same for Enoch: there is not a single verse anywhere saying that his body is in the grave. If you find them, please post the verses, thanks.

2.   Where the Bible wants us to know that the bodies of the saints are in the grave, it explicitly says so - example: David - 'that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day' (Acts 2:29) and 'David is not ascended into the heavens' (Acts 2:34). The case of David most of the other saints do not negate what was declared in Scripture about Elijah and Enoch - for while David died and was buried, Elijah went up into heaven, and Enoch did not see death.

3.   The resurrection which is preached in the NT for the saints is not simply a matter of being alive from the dead, but one that extends to the changing of our bodies (1 Cor. 15:42-45). The event of our bodies being 'changed' happens at the epoch of "the resurrection" in God's economy (1 Cor. 15:51-52) - yea, that is which termed "a better resurrection" (Heb. 11:35), and this collectively with all the saints (Heb. 11:40 - 'God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect').

4.   In all this, there is no reason to therefore assume the platitude of a linear ideology so as to either deny, or twist, or convolute what is said about Elijah and Enoch - these did not experience death; and their bodies are NOT in the graves.

1.    I'm not trying to expand anything so as to arrive at ideas that are unwarranted in Scripture. To this end, I do not equate 'the garden of Eden' to mean the same as 'HEAVEN' where Elijah went by a whirlwind.

2.   Scripture is clear: Elijah went up into HEAVEN - and by that we know that it is not the realms of the earth, in contrast to your inference about the Garden of Eden being 'in this earth'.

3.   My submission remain as was - and if you do have anything of substance to show where Elijah or Enoch experienced death, please share. Failing that, I do not find how your denying the clear declarations of Scripture on both accounts amounts to anything, especially where you did not make any attempts to explain the verses around Elijah and Enoch.