₦airaland Forum

Cyberfreak:
Thank you tpia, but I don't want physical revenge, I want spiritual one that I am sure would hurt him.
where is ogaga4luv sef?

now u are asking for the right person. . . .

. . . . .if everyone u have ever offended placed a curse on you. . . , where and what would u be today?.
only the strong forgive.

Mudley313:
lol @ u saying this after attributing/describing all types of concepts/understanding of your god prior


makes perfect sense. a god who's got infinite powers to solve all things in an instant, had to take such complicated route as to turn into his own son, turn human, allow humans he created humiliate n murder him, all becos he was sick of the scent of burnt animal offering n wanted to use human blood to wash away sins dat still exist
.

blah, blah, blah. nice try speaking on behalf of your god .remember wen he/she/it used to give public speeches to ancient desert people? why did he go all dumb/quiet n let people like u who's allegedly limited human scope of imagination cannot grasp the concept of god, speak for him? knock!knock!!my original quetion n d pic below starting to make sum sense now?

The summary of ur post is . . . u dont understand the nature of God. . . .u lack the knowledge or the patience of learning. . , .as such u choose to celebrate ur ignorance. . . .good for u.

Zodiac61:
Maybe he is like the CEO of a multinational company. He lets the minions do all the heavy and dirty work, and pops up from time to time to pick up the accolades for a job well done.

This was so funny. . .I forgot to laugh.

toneyb:
The same god can not be conceived of but people can have a personal relationship with him allegedly. I thought there is a verse in the bible that reads: "Come let us reason together says the lord". How can you reason together with what you can not conceive?

You miss the point.

1. God cannot be concived in His entirety by humans. humans who are subject to matter CANNOT conceive an omni-potent, present, puisant and sapient God.

2. The relationship we have with God today is via Jesus Christ who is the image of God we see and perceive.

3. Facts 1 and 2 (above) are NOT mutually exclusive.

4. what did the verse go on to say about reasoning with the Lord?

Purist:
Actually, toneyb is quite right.  I am a living testimony to that fact, though I'm not an atheist, yet. . lol (I still don't know how to define my belief system).   I used to be very active on this Religion board (I've been on Nairaland since 2005), and fellows like shahan, syrup, m4malik, bari_kade, stimulus, tellyb, and a host of others used to be my "brethren in Christ" .  If I tell you my former Nairaland ID - before I got banned (I'm not willing to tell, so don't ask ), you'll be shocked (you must have seen some of my old posts around here).  I've been cool on this forum ever since though.

I will like to know ur present belief system. . . . .perhaps I could learn from you. Since u have been able to make sense of the atheist arguments and rationalised it. . .I would honestly like to hear ur expression of ur belief/disbelief. . . . .

Mudley313:
He helps believers with trivial problems in their lives, like money, success, long life etc while expecting human beings to stop all the wars, famines, and genocides, even though he's got infinite power and could do it instantly or same thing since day seven, resting? writing a new entry into the bible?

Your understanding of God is deeply flawed and influenced by ignorance.

1. God does not help anyone with trivial problems. To assume such is to believe that the problems occur outside of the knowledge of God. what we see is God making believers better persons and revealing His miraculous nature in our lives through the storms we face.

2. when EXACTLY did God ask u to go and stop genocide, war or famine? These are events that tell just two things
a. The world we live in as presently constituted is devoid of the world of God as depicted in the garden of eden.
b. Jesus already foretold these events as evidence of the last days before the very end.

3. While God has got infinite powers. . .what happened to the liberty of God to do as He pleases?

4. on the seventh day God did NOT rest. . . . He CREATED rest.

Seriously, he has his followers on Earth raising money, and spreading the word for him.

pure ignorance. God spreads His word Himself. first by dying on the cross and then by preaching the gospel through believers (phillipians 2:13)

He has women creating more humans.

and?

He doesnt intervene in any wars or acts of genocide.

see above

What does he do all day? Just sit back and watch the chaos?

read mathew 24

Interestingly enough, I've heard many a Christian say that "the Devil's always busy."
And if there truly is a Devil, I believe he is quite busy. Evidence of his mayhem can be seen around the world.
It would be cool if God made some new animals, at least.

The concept of God cannot be conceived in humans limited scope of imagination.

streetwize:
The answer to this topic is very simple
There are two stages of christainity
1 Acceptance
2 Works

Acceptance depends on the presence of faith and invitation of christ to become our lord and saviour
Anything we do after this is our works
Jesus christ ordered us to do so many things after getting saved one of which is get baptised, are you guys telling me that if we do not do any of these deeds then we would go to hell? maybe if we do not go to church or preach the gospel or something??
Where is the logic in this??
The Bible clearly states
For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH, and not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of GOD, not of works, lest any man should boast.
In other words God gives you salvation if you believe in him, that you get baptised does not add or subtract from your salvation.
Baptism is another commandment, law like tithe or preaching, you should do it, but it does not affect your salvation in any way. . .

in other words . . , ur salvation remains intact, even when u disobey God. . . . , can this be more ridiculous?

you have made one very controversial point and one which is just arrant nonesense
controversial -  that christ commands all who are saved that they MUST be baptised
nonesense -  That the absence expression of a certain something negates its presence

how EXACTLY does statement two constitute nonesense?

Your argument here is firstly a fallacious slippery slope, because you argue without any conviction of sorts that obedience would neccessarily follow faith. . . Is this really true??
Secondly, could you not feel something without expressing it??

I love my mum
I could show her this by maybe washing the dishes
So if I do not wash the dishes. . . . then do you conclude that i do not love my mum??

This is a clear logical fallacy termed the confusion of cause and effect!!

Can anything be more dumber
John 14:15 . . . , 15"If you love me, you will obey what I command.

Also, allow me to fool around with your statement a bit
you say:
JC commands that all who are saved MUST be baptised
you've basically said this

1 All those who are saved
2 Get baptised
Look at it this way

Tattoo artist gives rules in his shop
1 All those who get tattoos
2 Cover it with a nylon for a day

If when I get my tattoo I do not for some reason cover it. . . . . I have no tattoo?

Suhaibu:
I was discussing with my Coptic-Christian friend, and he was trying to inculcate his dogma in me, arguing aggressively on trinity and original sin. Then I asked him to show me the proof from the word of Jesus and fortunately for us, Red-letter bible is on our midst. I demanded:

Show me from the red ink where Jesus mentioned trinity. He couldn't. All the verses he was showing to me were in black ink.
Finally, he said:

"You must be born again to belief in the mystery of trinity: you are not spiritually enough to understand it."
You must be born again to be spiritually good? to understand trinity? I asked.

That I took a real interest in: You must be born again. I want to know how this works; where is the proof from the scripture?
Brought me Romans Chapter 8.

Paul says (in the 8th chapter of Romans); if you are born-again what happen is that, the spirit of God comes into you and it tells you that God is now your Father. So you cry out: "Abba, Father."

Abba, is an unusual word, it means Father in Aramaic. So I look up to the word where else it is in the bible? It is only one other place Paul talks about Abba let you find it for yourself. And same place, he also talks about how it is that same works, he says:

That the spirit of God comes within you, you become a child of God; you call out to God: "Abba, Father". Now God is your Father and he goes on to say now you have a new Mother. A new Mother. God is your Father and you have a new Mother.

Since when I discover this verse till now I have yet to meet some one who is born-again and ask him: Who is your Father? they say God and ask further, who is your Mother? They don't know.

Why not? it is in the Bible. You have a new Mother if you are born-again. Why did the Spirit of God when it comes within you forget to tell you who your Mother is?

It is there! let you find it.

My Coptic-Christians and Catholic Asians couldn't give me the answer. I though I could demand it here:

WHO IS YOUR SPIRITUAL MOTHER?

romans chapter 8 verse what?. . . , and who is ur spiritual mother?

are u talking about the paedophile dude?

KunleOshob:
Of recent i have noticed that my dear friend and "brother" has been missing from this forum and he hasn't been posting his usual heresies. Not that i miss him, i am actually relieved that he has stop poisoning people with false doctrines [at least on this forum] but i am just curious as to what's up with him. As the older members of this section know he is a pastor to the family members of the acting president and i remember i professized that "blessings" would soon start flowing his way as a result of his connections with the acting "first" family. I also professized that he might even be appointed pastor in the Aso rock chapel were the president worships along with all the christian power brokers in the presidency. I also professized that he would soon resign from pastor chris church company and go and start his own church business.

I suspect that joagabje as relocated to Aso rock [even if just as a lobbyist] and doors might soon start opening for him hence he has less time to chat on NL, anyone who knows the where abouts of pastor Joe should let be know on this thread so i can contact Aso rock through him i am also looking for a political appointment I promise to pay at least 50% tithe of all the egunje i collect in the course of the appointment to joagbaje's ministry.

ur prophecy has come to pass. . . so hold on and wait for ur prophet seed

aletheia:
^^^
And so we arrive at the point that: faith---->obedience
These acts of obedience arising from faith will include; being baptized, loving your neighbour, etc.
One is not justified by baptism or other "works" but by FAITH. And FAITH will be obvious in OBEDIENCE. As Jesus says make a TREE GOOD and its FRUIT will be GOOD.

True.

I think the difference in positions arise from you holding that baptism is an act of faith (obedience) that is absolutely necessary, in contrast to those who would hold that baptism is just an act of faith like others such as loving the brethren (please correct me if I am wrong). There is a dynamic tension here which needs to be borne in mind when considering questions of this sort.

Bro, I have said this over and over again.
Faith is exercised by obedience to JC . . , .JC commands that all who are saved MUST be baptised. . . , baptism is therefore an expression of faith.

aletheia:
@noetic
I don't see how some of what you wrote above is different from what I wrote earlier viz:then one can argue that a genuinely saved man or woman will be baptized in obedience to the command of Christ. But then one is not saved or regenerated by the act of baptism but rather by faith in Jesus of Nazareth. As the scriptures do testify:

Fair enough.

But I will disagree with you on this assertion: The ticket for that walk is BAPTISM.
What then do you make of this scripture:Is baptism the ticket through which we come to Father? Were Enoch and Abraham baptized in their walk with God

You need to re-read what I wrote. I emphasised that it is NOT baptism in itself. . . but OBEDIENCE.

donnie:
Propaganda? pls expantiate. [b]Is it that Jesus was never raised from the dead or what? [/b]If he actually was raised from the dead, then these that you see shown here are just little. Time will come when you will ask yourself serious questions.

when did Jesus come on the same pedestral as "pastor Chris"? ad who is talking about the death and resurrection of JC?

My post refers to the LIES, DECEPTION and PROPAGANDA of the "pastor" Chris and his FRAUDULENT band.

InesQor:
@noetic: It is obvious that you miss my points. I am not talking about someone who REFUSES to get baptized, but someone who one way or the other, does not get to get baptized. An inadvertent case, and not a deliberate case of disobedience. Does the person go to hell?

An inadvertent case remains an inadvertent case . . , , except the person was indifferent to baptism which also means disobedience.
Its not about baptism perse. . , .but more about obedience.

nopuqeater:
Noetic and InesQor: While you are fighting each other, by Allah's Will, I am please to see your confusions. I am here presenting to you Paul's cancellation of Baptism by a disbeliever lik me marrying a "Chrstian". Paul also killed, the belief in Jesus, yet as a disbeliever who at least dies while maried to Christian is "Purified and Sanctified" and oh, no Hell but easy stroll to Christian Heaven. So men, I am good to go; With the global financial situation, we muslims will marry christian spouses and call it a night, while our children are muslims, too. Jesus and Paul will have to argue this one out between themselves;

1 Corinthians 7:12-14 (King James Version)

12But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

13And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

what has this got to do with the thread?

InesQor:
You seem to be delighting yourself in putting the cart before the horse.

Christians DON'T believe in Jesus Christ BY obeying His Word. Rather they OBEY His Word because they BELIEVE in Jesus Christ.

This has been my submission all along. , . . .

We BELIEVE and therefore we get baptized. If in between believing and baptism we are called home, we have fulfilled the pre-requisite for the reward of our faithful belief, accounted as our righteousness.

So for a person who refuses to get baptised. . . .we can safely say he/she does not believe.

I see how you skilfully dodged the scenario about preaching to paraplegic "vegetables" who desire to be born again but cannot get off their beds and get baptized. Una well done.

I dodged nothing, . . I probably never saw it. . . .since u could not answer my own questions/posers.

Baptism can be done even on a sick or dying bed. . . he does not have to be fully immersed in water. ur submission here is of no value to the discourse.

InesQor:
Please tell me you are joking, noetic? Do Muslims believe in Christ? What does it mean to believe in Christ?

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

I can't believe you are saying all of this just to push your argument.

Now, tell me, does this mean that a heathen man dying on his sickbed, no matter how much you preach the Gospel to him, will never get to heaven if he believes your message and he accepts Christ, and it is accounted to him as righteousness by faith in God? For his salvation to be complete, the nurses have to let in the fireman's hose through the window so that this paraplegic man whose mortal body is wasting away on the bed, can be BAPTISED by soaking immersion? Otherwise there is no need preaching to some people who cannot leave their sick beds because if they die there they will never get to heaven anyway without baptism.

Come off it. You've got to be kidding me.

I used the muslim scenario to highlight just how iimited ur scope of understanding the word "BELIEVE" is.
If muslims do not believe in JC. . . . .fair enough. Christians believe in JC. . .how?. . .by obeying His word.

why is that so hard to deduce?

InesQor:
There are people who believed in Christ and His gospel and it became accounted to them as righteousness by faith, but NOT because of disobedience, but for one reason or the other never get to be baptised. They end up in hell?

muslims also believe in Christ. . .are they saved? is it accounted to them unto righteousness? please be objective

InesQor:
Noetic, faith has always been physical?

Faith is FIRST spiritual, but it has physical manifestations. When you put the physical traits first before the spiritual change, you have lost the essence of the truth!

Nobody is talking about disobedience. We are saying that statements like "baptism is the necessary requisite for salvation" will make people put their confidence in baptism!!!!

WHERE IS YOUR CONFIDENCE? In Christ or in a Splash-dash of water?

You miss the point.

1. Faith has always been physical to a large extent becuase that was the design of God. That through our walk with we have testimonies that attest to our faith.

A. Noah had faith that a flood would come. . . . , the flood came . . . , his faith became physical

B. Moses had faith that God would do as He said. . . , moses spread forth his rod. . . .the sea parted . . . . .his faith became physical

C. The same goes with Elijah and the rain, Elisha and Jordan, David and Goliath . . .it is the design of God that u experience a PHYSICAL TANGIBLE and LIVING FAITH


2. My faith is NOT in the splash of water, but in He who asked me to splash the water.

InesQor:
For the record, I am not an anti-baptist. IN FACT, I attend a Baptist Church and I got baptized when i got born again over a decade ago.

Where I have a problem is when people say that without a PHYSICAL act of baptism, a SPIRITUAL benefit of salvation will never accrue?

When did faith become so trivial and physical?

faith has ALWAYS been physical, to a very large extent. why disobey someone u have faith in?

Kunbee:
Useless man

are u better than him?

Pastor AIO:
I am certainly against your christ. I believe you worship a barbaric demon projected from the murky darkness of your soul. But please don't get me started. I don't want to get drawn back into posting on nairaland everyday.

You have denied Christ by ur mundane posts over and over again.
Jesus warned of folks like u who FRAUDULENTLY call themselves PASTORS . . . .wolves in sheep in clothing.

A pastor attempting to reconcile "satanism" to christinaity . . . . .need I say more?

aletheia:
@noetic
Here's my tuppence:

If your argument is along the lines of James in his epistle
then one can argue that a genuinely saved man or woman will be baptized in obedience to the command of Christ. But then one is not saved or regenerated by the act of baptism but rather by faith in Jesus of Nazareth. As the scriptures do testify:
For Christians, baptism itself is an act of faith, a public confession of identifying with the death and resurrection of Jesus. For us as Christians it has a different meaning from those disciples of John who got baptized or proselytes converting to the Jewish faith, who also got baptized.

There are two things here.

1. We get saved by faith. Faith is however not an abstract thing. The will of God is to substantiate our faith from belief to reality. . . .this process entails a walk with God. This walk starts at the point of salvation.

2. The ticket for that walk is BAPTISM. baptism is a physical expression of the faith we have in the death and resurrection of JC. its NOT baptism in itself but the OBEDIENCE involved.

Would you therefore say that these three groups viz:
a. Christians
b. Disciples of John
c. converts to Judaism
are saved by baptism? The common thread that runs through these groups is that baptism is a symbolic act signifying a ruption from the past, a putting off of the old and a putting on of the new.
Indeed not all who are baptized are regenerate as witness the case with Simon Magus:

In the same vain, I could ask u, that since muslims claim to believe in JC. . , are they also saved?

ttalks:
noetic, nobody is trying to downplay the act of faith which is the water baptism. The point here is that it is not a part of what gets one saved. The conclusion is water baptism comes after being saved and not in the process of getting saved(refering to the saved that Christ referred to in John 3:16,not the continuous process till Christ's return). It is an act performed after being saved.Entry into salvation/the body of Christ/christianity requires only belief in Christ and nothing else. Any other thing is simply an act of faith.

Interesting argument. John 3:16 talks about believing in Him . . . , . . , do u believe in Him if u disobey Him?

Pastor AIO:
Hello! I don't know what I'm expected to say here. I don't know anything for taking people out of the equation.

Anyhow, thanks for asking after me.

ps. I'm not being rude, it's just that my mind is occupied elsewhere at the moment in my life. Although I still browse through, I won't really be contributing for a while.

You have said enough. . . . . . ur anti-Christ notions are LEGENDARY.

Nice one . . . .

JeSoul:

---

wow. A salvation that actually requires physical works. I really have nothing else to add. Those reading can make up their minds for themselves from all that's already been said.

No. Its salvation that requires OBEDIENCE.

OLAADEGBU:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily I say to you, Except a man be born of water and Spirit, he cannot into the kingdom of God. -- John 3:5

Jesus used water as a figure of speech here relating to salvation and of cleansing by the Word of God.  Men are cleansed and born again by the Word (See James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23).

The two Agents of the New birth are;
[list]
[li]The Holy Spirit (John 3:3-5; 1 Cor.6:11) and [/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]The Word of God (1 Peter 1:23; James 1:18; Eph.5:26; John 15:3 [/li]
[/list]
A true Christian is one who has been born again because of his faith in the Gospel truth which can only be found in the Bible and by the workings of the Holy Spirit.

[list]
[li]Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. - James 1:18[/li]
[/list]

[/quote]1. how did this person exercise his faith in the gospel truth without accepting baptism? Jesus said if anyone accepts the gospel he/she should get baptised .  . ,  , how then do u seperate baptism from the gospel truth?

2. On the contrary the HOLY SPIRIT is NOT an agent/perquisite  of salvation. saved persons did not have have the holy spirit UNTIL they get an HS baptism. . .which is different from getting saved and water baptism, . . example abound in the bible.

3. A christian is the son of God. . . .the sons of God are those led by the spirit (romans 8:14). .  . . . . .those that DISOBEY God are NOT the sons of God.
[quote][list]
[li]Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. - 1 Peter 1:23[/li]
[/list]

are those who disobey God an incorruptible seed?

Salvation does not come through water baptism but by grace through faith in the atoning blood of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:7; 2:8,9; 1 John 1:7,9; Heb.9:22).

The bible says that grace cannot abound if we sin (romans 6:1). . . . . to disobey JC is to SIN.

The Scripture records a catalogue of those who got saved by Jesus Christ without water baptism being a pre-requisite: Jesus healed the one sick of palsy in Matt.9:1-7; the woman who washed the feet of Jesus with her tears and cleaned them with her hair in Luke 7:36-50, Zacchaeus, the thief on the cross and the Ethiopian Eunuch, Even Paul was being addressed as a 'brother' (Bro. Saul) by Ananias and this was before he got baptised (Acts 9:17).

1. The dude in mathew 9 had his sins forgiven and he was healed and NOT saved.

2. The woman who washed the feet of Jesus . . .did just that. . .she washed His feet. . .not more.

3. Through Zacheus we learn the need for restitution and NOT the act of avoiding baptism. baptism remains a DECREE by JC

4. The thief on the cross assked for mercy which was what he received. The abilty of JC to show mercy and give salvation are NOT mutually exclusive.

5. Paul got baptised as soon as he got saved in damascus.

JeSoul:
So if a person is not baptized, they are/cannot ever be a christian?

 I have just one response to that - wow.

I have just one response. . . , really?   So a person can DISOBEY Jesus Christ and still remain a "christian". . , wetin I no go c for nairaland  

---

For the sake of clarity I will respond to only the key points in your post:
  Now perhaps you are confusing salvation with the walk itself.

 When one believes is the point/moment of salvation (John 3:16 makes this abundantly clear). The subsequent life of obedience to Christ is the walk that includes living and walking as Christ did and following in his example of baptism. Baptism is not a requisite for Salvation - it is merely the physical response of it. Do you see the difference?

No. . .on the contrary, salvation is NOT a one-off event. Salvation is a continuos process that starts at the point of accepting Jesus.
so if a man gets saved and starts to steal, commit adultery and fraud. . , .does his salvation remain intact?. .  ,  . Definitely NOT.
u need to have a balanced understanding of what James meant by works and what Paul meant by faith. can we because we are saved continue to sin like the sons of satan? NO . . . . .the acts of righteousness we perform is called WORKS.

I haven't said baptism is not important. The question is whether or not one will go to hell if they weren't.

YES . . . .and please quote me anywhere.

For u to consciously DISOBEY the instruction of Jesus Christ shows that u are not a vessel unto honour and not worthy of honour. This is not a case of baptism but a case of OBEDIENCE.

 

No, baptism is not THE evidence of Faith no more than Speaking in Tongues is. It is just one of many many.

There are many evidences of Faith and the FIRST is baptism.
Jesus said that if u believe that a jewish capenter with an incredible birth, who performed miracles is God and died for ur sins to reconcile u to Him. . . . then u should get baptised. why did He insist on baptism?. . . . .why did Jesus command baptism?

Baptism on its own is a "foolish" injunction that has no physical relevance. but all over the scriptures we have seen how God used "foolish" injunctions to perform great miracles. . . .the case of moses and his rod, Elisha and salt and many others readily come to mind.
Baptism is an act of faith simply because it CANNOT be rationalised.

 

A shady question Noetic. You might as well have asked show me a person in the bible who got saved without speaking in tongues.

did Jesus command anyone to speak in tongues? tongues is a GIFT and not everyone is given this gift. speaking in tongues has NO connection to salvation.

Nobody disagrees with that. Is baptism a requisite to enter heaven? that is the question of the thread. Not whether baptism is important or not.

You cannot enter heaven by disobeying Jesus.

toneyb:
Where is deepsight?

bro u beat me to it. . . .I was just going to open a thread to find out what happened to our objective umpire.

You are surely missed DeepSight . . . . .where are thou?

toba:
What do u think is the solution if u are to give advise?

I dont think that the present crisis is outside of God's knowledge. . . . .within this crisis is the hand of God with a way out and a solution.
I have learnt to see crises as God's way of fine-tuning His generals. I have no solution to profer.

aletheia:
1Co 1:17  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Not so fast,  . ,  .dont isolate that verse.

I corth 1: 13-17

13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into[b] the name of Paul?

14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,

15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name.

16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.)

17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

from the above we can deduce the following
1. Everyone Paul was writing to (the corinth church) at that point in time were baptised by Crispus and Gaius (verse 14)

2. Paul calls himself a teacher and not a baptiser. ,  . . this does not remove the ESSENTIAL need for baptism.