₦airaland Forum

lolz , was it not a fluke?

mazaje:
Right and wrong depend solely on cultural influence. . .Human conscience evolved as a result of experience and it is still evolving as we are getting to understand each other better. . .There was a time when slavery was the right thing to do. . .and most people approved of it. . even their gods. . .but as time moved on and their conscience evolved they discovered that, that actions were counter productive to their society as a whole and put an end to it. . .There are societies where cannibalism was the right thing to do and most members of that society do not see any thing wrong in doing that. . .Every society determines what is right and what is wrong based on past experience or through interaction with other societies. . .

I cant recollect the title of the thread where I debated this same issue with KAG. . . . . .it would have been easier, as u are simply repeating the points I rebuffed on that thread.
Right and wrong does not depend on cultural influence. dont mistake norms for moral values.
Right and wrongs are taught simply based on CONVICTIONS. . . . . .convictions are influenced by beliefs and many times by religion.
As at when slavery was the "right" thing to do. . . . . . .some found slavery inappropriate . . . .and that explains why some slave masters supported anti-slavery.
The human conscience is influenced by convictions. . . . . .to decide whats right or wrong. . . and not cultural tendacies like u postulate.

What laws exactly? Stoning to death of disobedient children or cutting the hands of women? Is it the prohibition of men to look at menstruating women or the laws that say that you should kill your family members that entice you and tell you to worship other gods? Even the ten commandments were basied and were not universal because when it says thou shall not kill it meant that shall not kill your fellow jew because yahweh also told the jews according to the bible to kill others that do not worship him. . .when it says thou shall not steal it was only talking about not stealing from your fellow jews because the bible god tells his chosen men to pillage and loot from others, he even participates in sharing of the loot in some cases according to the bible. . .So the ten commandments were not universally applicable. . . .People have been living with each other and observing some the laws of the ten commandments(thou shall not steal, thou shall not lie etc) in other parts of the world before the jews wrote them down. . .The jews were not the one that first wrote them down. . .people had already been observing some of the laws long before the jews wrote them down. . . 


The broader picture is this. . .Human morality is constantly evolving. . . There is no universally acceptable morality. . . every society has what it considers morally acceptable and what it doesn't and it differs from place to place. . . people in various groups learn from past experience and make changes for the better. . .If you look at the bible incest was not considered to be a sin at a time but as the peoples conscience evolved they decided to change it and label it a sin. . .If you look at the bible you will see that the morality of the people and their god was constantly evolving. . .yahweh encouraged slavery, killing and looting of other people, babaric laws like stoning to death of disobedient children ect. . . later when the conscience of the people evoled and the saw that this laws were no longer sustainable abiding by them or tried to change those laws. . .even jews of today that believe in the torah and the law of moses do not stone to death their disobedient children, they have discarded most of the barbaric laws of moses. . .their morality and conscience has evolved from that of their ancestors. . .All laws are made purely for the good and the survival of the society. . .when the ancient jews thought that killing their neighbors, taking what belongs to them and enslaving them will better their survival their god told them to kill their neighbors, seize their wealth and be racist to them. . .later when they realized that this system is unsustainable and is not good for the society at large their god told them to embrace their neighbors and be good to them. . , 

You don't have any evidence to show that any god gave any body any laws to follow, you only have people writing down laws for themselves and ascribing it to their various gods. . .there are no god giving laws all laws are man made and they differ from society to society. . . . .Humans make laws for themselves all the time and those laws always change as human morality and conscience changes and evolves. . .example racism and segregation was the normal way of life in the united state in the 30's and 40's but as their conscience and morality evolved through trial and error they decided to drop those laws of segregation and embrace the new laws that favor equality. . .because they know that it will be for the benefit of the society as a whole. . .500 years ago there was nothing like war treaties and war crimes. . today we have such things as war crimes because our morality and our conscience has evolved. . .

u keep mixing the laws with the punishment.

I insist that billions of people in the world today are influenced by God's commandments in the OT. This commandments include Thou shall not kill, lie, fornicate or commit adultery et all. This laws have replaced barbaric cultural norms that have repeatedly influenced man.

Do u know of any group of people that predates the OT who abided by laws similar to the 10 commandments?

Morality is something that keeps on evolving all the time. . .500 years ago you will not be able to live as comfortable as you are over there in england. . .you would have been a slave because the conscience of the people living at that time had not evolved like ours, making slaves out of people that are from another race or tribe was the right thing to do amongst the people that were living in england at that time. . .People were living like animals about 3000 years ago. . .If you visit ancient cities like rome or athens you will see how they built their cities. . .they had walls and people move in groups for fear of being kidnapped and sold into slavery. . .You dare not walk alone because if members of another tribe see you. . you are toast. . . but now our morality has evolved and we no longer live like them. . .killing of twins was once accepted as the right thing to do in some parts of nigeria but now that the conscience of the people has evolved they no longer practice that primitive way of life. . .100 years ago no body would have accepted a black man as the president of the United states because most of the people living at that time believed that blacks were no different from monkeys. . .Today peoples conscience has evolved and they voted for a black man to be the POTUS. . . .

what is SOMETHING that keeps on evolving. . . . . use legible words to define morality. . .what is morality?

My guiding principle is life is do unto others as you will want them to do unto you. . .

and where did u get this principle from?

mazaje:
. . . .

was that too big for ur mind to capture?

mazaje:
No he wasn't. . .

But he accepted it. . something that people like William Craig deny they say their god does not participate in the acceptance of dead human's as an offering. . . .

Cool. . . . .I believe that we are now on the same page.

You know exactly what the passage says but you will rather play dumb just to make your god look "good". . .The bible god told his chosen men to kill off all the people in an entire town including all animals and offer them unto him as a burnt offering. . what part of that story do you not understand?. . . .The point I am trying to make all along is that the bible it self refutes the arguments of apologist like willaim craig who says that other god's that accept human offering and bad. . .when his own yahweh requested for human offering and accepted it. . . .

The part of the story I dont understand is how this commandment constitutes a sacrifice?
They are to kill idolators and not to offer them as a sacrifice.

mazaje:
He requested for Isaac to be offered unto him. . .


He accepted the offering of Jephthah's daughter as a burnt offfering. . .

This is what yahweh said. . .you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.". . . . .

It seems your delusion is making you see red when what is written down is white. . . .

1. was isaac killed?

2. did God ask for Jephter's sacrifice?

3. how does that verse constitute a sacrifice? . . . . , do u know what a sacrifice means?

Wont save. . . ogaga is a self confessed satanist

Dual


Card

aja . . . . , dog

mazaje:
He accepted human sacrifice no? Did the bible god not tell abraham to sacrifice his son unto him?. . .

and u remember isaac was killed. . . . . .

It discredits those like William Craig that say that their god is better than other gods that accept human sacrifice. . .the  OT god used to accept human sacrifice. . .

u are yet to prove that.

How is this this lying? This is what the passage says. . ."If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.  Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it.  Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.  That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.  Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction.  Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you."

What part of this story is hard for you to understand?. . . .This is what yahweh says,  kill every body in the town. . do not allow any thing that lives to survive(humans and animals) pile them up and sacrifice them as a burnt sacrifice to yahweh. . the warrior god. . .

how does the above constitute a sacrifice? do u know the meaning of a sacrifice?

mazaje:
Hypocrisy is what is my definition of sin. . .saying one thing and doing another. . .telling people to do something that you yourself can not practice. . .

what?

just produce a link.

and what is "right conduct" ? who determines if a conduct is right? cant u come up with a simple definition?

what am I evading?

mazaje:
More delusions. . .was jesus not a hypocrite according to the stories written about him. . he told people not to call each other fools but went about calling people fools. . .he could not even practice what he was preaching accoring to the story. . .

I am sick of ur ramblings mazaje. . . .why dont u just define sin?

Atheists:
One thing l know is that making people eat the flesh of their children is not in the nature of a moral being

what is the meaning of "moral" ?

mazaje:
What is this

since ur parents were christians. . , .why did they not eat ur flesh?

mazaje:
Your dishonesty is ridiculous. . .first you asked if the girl was killed. . .when I showed you, are now changing tone by asking if yahweh asked for a human sacrifice. . .Yahweh did not ask for a human sacrifice according to the story but he accepted it. . . .

All I am doing is to attempt to make u access the story objectively.
I could as well have stated my case and ignored ur points.

We can deduce that
a. God did NOT demand for a human sacrifice.
b. what happened was at the discretion of the father. . . . . .his daughter also did not resist such.

So objectively . . . .how does this event discredit God?

He asked for human sacrifice in other parts of the bible. . .

"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)

Lying is not allowed.

how is the above a human sacrifice?

Atheists:
I am more moral than the [s]God[/s] omnipotent cosmic Saddam Hussein you worship.  Why would a loving god even think of such a punishment ?

another unfortunate ignoramus. . , . . .what does "moral" mean?

mazaje:
Because they are not barbaric like your imaginary and warrior god. . .

Rubbish!!!. . . .were ur parents not christians?

[quote author=Tudór link=topic=325310.msg4580625#msg4580625 date=1253469007]Samuel was not promised as a burnt offering. . . . Was he?[/quote]no he wasnt. . .but was offered to God. . .wasnt he?. . . . .  .how are u and where have u been? missed ur wahala a lot.

mazaje:
Comparing apples to oranges is what you are doing here. . .you apologetic stinks. . .

This is what the guy said. . ."If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and[b] I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.[/b]" . . . . The bible god according to the story gave him victory over his enemies. . and he made a vow to sacrifice where ever comes out of his house[b] as a burnt offering[/b] unto yahweh. . . . .

When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break." . . . .and what was the vow he can not break? to sacrifice whatever comes out of his house as a burnt offering unto yahweh. . . . .The story then says that after the two months, she returned to her father and[b] he did to her as he had vowed [/b]. . What was his vow? To sacrifice what ever comes out of his house to yahweh as a burnt offering. . . What part of this story do you not understand?. . .

Samuel was not offered unto yahweh to be sacrificed as a burnt offering was he?. . . Your apologetic reeks of pure delusion. . .   . . .And this is the same guy that goes around haranguing the moslems for not accepting the fact that mohammed was a pedophile when he refuses to accept that his own yahweh once accepted human sacrifice. . .

did God request for a human sacrifice?

mazaje:
More BS . . even the allah you guys love to hate does not make people eat each others flesh as punishment in the koran. . .If this verse were in the koran I know you will be flashing it around showing the moslems what a babaric monster they worship. . . but since its in the bible you are trying to make light of it by saying they are your gods enemies. . .why are they his enemies because of unbelief? . . .delusion at its best. . .

why did ur parents not eat ur flesh?

Jarus:
Gani, due to his radical nature surely erred in his ordering that his burial be delayed, but you clearly missed it by interpreting that action to mean he had doubts about the authenticity of Allah and Muhammad(SAW). Gani, due to his weak Islamic understanding, felt it will not be ok for the masses he had fought for not to see his dead body before being buried, and felt he should be buried in a 'modern Islamic way'(his words). This is surely wrong but obviously due to a weak understanding of Islam.
He himself said he should be buried in a modern 'Islamic' way, meaning till death, he recognized and accepted Islam as his religion. He added Islam to the way he wanted to be buried, even though there are no two ways about it. No altering the laid down rules in an attempt tp 'modernize'; that is how it had been and should be.

he was not buried islamically. . .simple. what u make of it is irrelevant.

While Gani's being a Muslim does not add or take anything away from Islam, as we don't need a Gani to authenticate Islam for us, I want to give you 10 reasons why Gani was a Muslim.

1. Gani added Islam to the way he shoud be buried till point of death, even though his radical nature made him try to strike a balance between Islamic burial and his wishes(which he called 'modern Islamic burial'), but pitiably, he was wrong.

but he was not buried according to the commandments of ur "prophet". . , , or was he?

2. Gani swore in courts so many times with Qur'an

when was the last time Gani took the witness stand in court?

3. When asked what he usually took along when going to prison, he mentioned Qur'an in addition to other items. If he didn't believe in Qur'an he would have thought of including it in his prison items

where is this recorded?

4. When a ThisDay reporter, Simon Kolawole, asked him about his commitment to the 5 pillars of Islam in an interview in 2003, he answered he tried as much as possible observe his five daily prayers, fast during Ramadan and sponsor many people to Hajj every year. It takes conviction for a radical minded Gani to bow down and pray and deny himself food because of an order from Somebody he did not see. The Gani we all knew will not do what he wasn't convinced of. count Gani out of wanting to please anybody.

I read that article by simon. . . and my deduction was that Gani was very non-challant about islam. . .cos he had his doubts.

5. Gani openly stated in a newspaper interview that he was a Muslim that believed in Islam, in Allah, in Prophet Muhammad and in Qur'an but 'not a fanatical Muslim'.

6. Gani also stated publicly in a newspaper interview that he laid down a rule in his household that none of his male children should leave Islam. You will call this a breach of freedom of religion. A Gani that did not believe in Islam will not give such rule in his family and be bold and unapologetic enough to tell a newspaper reporter. He gave female the freedom to marry from any religion, but the male should never convert from Islam.

7. In another interview, Gani stated that 'after God and Prophet Mohammed, teh next person is my mother'. We all know teh extent to which he loved his late mother. May a Muslim will even forget to mention Prophet Mohammed and quickly say 'after God, teh next person is so so person(wife, mother etc)'. Not even teh spur of the moment made him to forget Prophet Mohammed's position. For a Gani to be conscious enough of putting Prophet Mohammed above his dear mother, shows he consciously believed in Prophet Muhammad.

source?

8. Did you see the picture of his 70th birthday last year? He organized an Islamic prayer and his picture, holding Tesbih(Islamic rosary), bare footed, sitting in the midst of alfas, was in ThisDay newspaper.

9. His elder sister died earlier this year and he ordered that she buried without delay in Islamic manner. This means he believed in Islamic burial system but due to his love for masses, he felt his own body should be delayed so that the masses he fought for can see his corpse. This surely is wrong.

10. His children confirmed that Gani was a Muslim till death.

All of these are irrelevant after thoughts, . . . .why was he not buried the same day he died?

Again, we do not a Gani to endorse Islam for us, and in fact I had tried all thsi while to be silent on the flaws in Gani's burial but Noetic's assertion that 'for Gani to have denounced the Islamic burial implies that he had his doubts about everything islamic' pushed words out of my mouth.

I'm back to my spectator stands.

Gani is an intelligent dude, well informed and well educated. If an educated and informed person like Gani could refuse to be buried as commanded by mohammed. , , . , this singular fact cannot be easily dismissed.

mazaje:
Your dishonesty is sickening. . . didn't you read where it says that she went and wept with her friends and where it says her father did to her as he had vowed(sacrifice her unto yahew)?. . . .

ur dogmatic bias is also sickening. . . , . .was samuel not offered to God? was he killed?

that was decreed for the enemies of God. . . .are u His enemy?

posakosa:
Hi durling,

hugs and kisses. . . , ow are u?

huxley:
Judges 11 (New International Version)

Judges 11

1 Jephthah the Gileadite was a mighty warrior. His father was Gilead; his mother was a prostitute. 2 Gilead's wife also bore him sons, and when they were grown up, they drove Jephthah away. "You are not going to get any inheritance in our family," they said, "because you are the son of another woman." 3 So Jephthah fled from his brothers and settled in the land of Tob, where a group of adventurers gathered around him and followed him.

4 Some time later, when the Ammonites made war on Israel, 5 the elders of Gilead went to get Jephthah from the land of Tob. 6 "Come," they said, "be our commander, so we can fight the Ammonites."

7 Jephthah said to them, "Didn't you hate me and drive me from my father's house? Why do you come to me now, when you're in trouble?"

8 The elders of Gilead said to him, "Nevertheless, we are turning to you now; come with us to fight the Ammonites, and you will be our head over all who live in Gilead."

9 Jephthah answered, "Suppose you take me back to fight the Ammonites and the LORD gives them to me—will I really be your head?"

10 The elders of Gilead replied, "The LORD is our witness; we will certainly do as you say." 11 So Jephthah went with the elders of Gilead, and the people made him head and commander over them. And he repeated all his words before the LORD in Mizpah.

12 Then Jephthah sent messengers to the Ammonite king with the question: "What do you have against us that you have attacked our country?"

13 The king of the Ammonites answered Jephthah's messengers, "When Israel came up out of Egypt, they took away my land from the Arnon to the Jabbok, all the way to the Jordan. Now give it back peaceably."

14 Jephthah sent back messengers to the Ammonite king, 15 saying:
       "This is what Jephthah says: Israel did not take the land of Moab or the land of the Ammonites. 16 But when they came up out of Egypt, Israel went through the desert to the Red Sea and on to Kadesh. 17 Then Israel sent messengers to the king of Edom, saying, 'Give us permission to go through your country,' but the king of Edom would not listen. They sent also to the king of Moab, and he refused. So Israel stayed at Kadesh.

18 "Next they traveled through the desert, skirted the lands of Edom and Moab, passed along the eastern side of the country of Moab, and camped on the other side of the Arnon. They did not enter the territory of Moab, for the Arnon was its border.

19 "Then Israel sent messengers to Sihon king of the Amorites, who ruled in Heshbon, and said to him, 'Let us pass through your country to our own place.' 20 Sihon, however, did not trust Israel  to pass through his territory. He mustered all his men and encamped at Jahaz and fought with Israel.

21 "Then the LORD, the God of Israel, gave Sihon and all his men into Israel's hands, and they defeated them. Israel took over all the land of the Amorites who lived in that country, 22 capturing all of it from the Arnon to the Jabbok and from the desert to the Jordan.

23 "Now since the LORD, the God of Israel, has driven the Amorites out before his people Israel, what right have you to take it over? 24 Will you not take what your god Chemosh gives you? Likewise, whatever the LORD our God has given us, we will possess. 25 Are you better than Balak son of Zippor, king of Moab? Did he ever quarrel with Israel or fight with them? 26 For three hundred years Israel occupied Heshbon, Aroer, the surrounding settlements and all the towns along the Arnon. Why didn't you retake them during that time? 27 I have not wronged you, but you are doing me wrong by waging war against me. Let the LORD, the Judge, decide the dispute this day between the Israelites and the Ammonites."

28 The king of Ammon, however, paid no attention to the message Jephthah sent him.

29 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.

34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break."

36 "My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry."

[size=14pt]38 "You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.[/size]
      From this comes the Israelite custom 40 that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.

did God request for her as a sacrifice? was she killed?

huxley:
[size=14pt]Leviticus 27:[/size]

26Only the firstling of the beasts, which should be the LORD's firstling, no man shall sanctify it; whether it be ox, or sheep: it is the LORD's.

27And if it be of an unclean beast, then he shall redeem it according to thine estimation, and shall add a fifth part of it thereto: or if it be not redeemed, then it shall be sold according to thy estimation.

28Notwithstanding no devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD.

[size=14pt]29None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death.
[/size]
30And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.

31And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.

was that refering to humans? can u give us ONE example of a human "sacrificed" in the bible?

Abuzola:
I will only leave christianity alond when dude like noetic and david quit as well, the Quran tells us that as long as we exist they won't surrender neither will i. So welcome aboard

surrender to what/whom?

Save. , . .

pass

lolz so how are we going to celebrate ur fluke victory?

how do u feel now that u have won?